Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[RIP|Merrick]

Any idea if they reset that first initial match on Gamer to get a different layout?

 

[19_]

This is actually ugly. I knew knew knew this was the path Smash 4 was heading toward. And I refuse to follow it. Absolutely not having it.

Even worse is just peeking at some of the comments for these threads, you can see the hate toward Lylat Cruise and wanting it banned, Duck Hunt and the ducks "messing up" hitboxes, oh lawdy.

This community is screwed before the game even really started fam.

Also, apparently Omni is gonna do a five reasons why he hates Duck Hunt video? Hoo boy...

Bruh.

I can see how if you think being good at this game is about tech skill and reflexes, Duck Hunt is a stage to remove.
I also think if that is your opinion, you are probably playing the wrong game.
Clever use of the completely predictable and influencable dog to your advantage is a sign of a great player to me.

Tech skill, reflexes, but smart decision-making above all. That is what makes a great Smash player to me.

On a different note: People arguing against Lylat say "It forces projectile users to play differently" and i respond with "yes, that is why i picked it against you". It is not like it is that terrible for most characters anyway.

I find the justification of more restrictive rulesets to be fascinating. Are like, dynamic stages really that bad for tournaments? Is keeping track anything more than moving platforms and your opponent to much?

I'm DEAD SERIOUS not even trying to be insulting. Would less stages really mean more for this game? Is it so we can focus more on the characters? Is having a certain amount of stage knowledge unhealthy for the community?

The video I posted above says a lot about how the stages got to where they are now but not about the mindset behind it. I really think this should looked into more, because most of the time a strait answer for banning is never given and an arguments never amount to anything.

I do believe the more stages the better but how can you change things without understanding the other side? There must be reason...

 

[ForteX]

There must be reason...

Straight.

Melee.

Mindset.

That's the only reason. Just to throw it out there, I'm still very on the fence about the immediate ban mindset on walkoffs.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Bruh.



I find the justification of more restrictive rulesets to be fascinating. Are like, dynamic stages really that bad for tournaments? Is keeping track anything more than moving platforms and your opponent to much?

I'm DEAD SERIOUS not even trying to be insulting. Would less stages really mean more for this game? Is it so we can focus more on the characters? Is having a certain amount of stage knowledge unhealthy for the community?

The video I posted above says a lot about how the stages got to where they are now but not about the mindset behind it. I really think this should looked into more, because most of the time a strait answer for banning is never given and an arguments never amount to anything.

I do believe the more stages the better but how can you change things without understanding the other side? There must be reason...

I'm thinking its a combination of many factors. I think the main reason for banning a ton of stages is because despite how many times we claim Smash is a different breed of fighting game, we also want people to see Smash as a traditional fighting game as well. Street Fighter, Tekken, Guilty Gear, Marvel vs. Capcom, all well respected 2-D fighters where stage selection doesn't do anything. So we take that lesson from these games, and decide that only interactions between players count as skilled play, and interactions with the stage need to be kept to a minimum, otherwise, we're not a real fighting game.

Another reason is probably just legacy. Melee has a lot of banned stages, Brawl banned a lot too because of MK, so people just naturally assume small amounts of stages are more competitive, as its what we are fed in every single tournament, from majors to locals.

I also suspect we believe in our celebrities too much. Because while I'm sure they're great people, they also make money off this ****, and they don't want that to change. I've stated before that I think Top Level Players and The Audience are completely at odds. The audience wants new techs, new combos, new stuff. They want to be entertained, and that requires that the meta advances in order to find this new stuff. The Top Level Player, however, wants to win. Dealing with new things is bad for them, so it's literally in their best interest to stagnate the meta. Like, imagine if Axe discovered a killer new Pikachu stage thing on PS1 in Melee. The audience would be hyped up, checking out this stuff, but Mango, Armada, Etc. now have some new development they have to put in time to defend against, but, if PS1 was banned, they don't.

So, yeah, my take is that preference for small stage lists is based off tradition, pressure to look like a "fighting game" and listening to people who don't have the meta's best interest in mind

 

[ForteX]

Under no circumstance should Smash seek the validation of games completely different from itself, nor do I believe that this community, even at the highest level, wants to try to validate Smash to traditional fighting games. If trash like League of Legends can be considered reasonably competitive, as an "e-sport" (the idea of which is cancer, just btw), then Smash is just another sport in a long line of sports. No one tries to validate Football in the face of American Football, both have fans for a variety of reasons. Whether or not there's crossover is of no concern to the NFL or FIFA (or whoever the hell is in charge of Football), and whether or not there's crossover in the traditional FGC and Smash should be of no concern to anyone on any level.

Also, I really believe that many of the bans we got from Melee were legitimate, and not just a result of some conspiracy to keep the top players at the top. Some stages are just outright bull**** and that's ok, I'm glad that we, as a community, can agree that under no circumstance is it OK to get screwed by something random on a stage. The argument that there aren't really too many stages with truly unpredictable things is valid, but I believe it's trumped by the equally valid argument that there are characters more suited to abuse stage hazards in a way that makes the stage favorable to that character in any matchup. The difference between Melee and Smash 4 is that people have for some reason or another been playing Melee for nearly 15 years now, where Smash 4 has been out for a year.

There's probably several hundred years combined experience on all of Melee's stages determining their competitive viability, whereas Smash 4 just hasn't had that - from day one we picked stages based on precedents set by a very different game, and just rolled with them. I'm guilty of it, too. I don't believe that's fear from the top players, either - I think it's actually fear from the bottom rungs. Players who make it to the top don't make it there by accident or luck - it's hard dedication to the craft, and that includes learning the stages that other players will shy away from. The casual mindset takes a laser to the face on Halberd, blames the stage, and ignores it. The champion goes back and finds out why the laser hit.

Like I said in my previous post, no one wants to go to a local and lose because they got played like a chump by a stage they're not familiar with, but that's where this kind of change truly starts, certainly not on Smashboards. I can post as many long winded posts like this as I want, but until I go up to several locals and convince not only the TO, but the regulars to that tournament that [stage] should be counterpick, or maybe even starter, I haven't made any real progress. Worst that can happen in that scenario is you play a few friendlies on the stage and find out that it's awful.

The most dangerous thing to developing a metagame is to rely on precedent. Competitively speaking though, this community is ruled by it. Lately I've really started getting more in to testing stages and seeing why they're so bad, or maybe why they aren't, and I've had a lot of great experiences, which doesn't necessarily mean that things always went my way or turned out for the best. It's part of the love of the game, I think, and I really encourage everyone to be open minded about stages.

 

[wizrad]

I think I big reason is that many TOs are lazy and would rather have less stages, less stocks, no customs, and no Miis than have to actually enforce rules that save time. Hell, a 1 stock Sheik @ Smashville tournament would probably be heaven for these guys (and is likely where we're headed).

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, I may host a legitimate weekly or bi-weekly tournament series (depending upon my scheduling) that allows for a far expanded stage listing for tournament legal stages. Now I will state that the stages would be as follows for this, as it will be a test to see if players are simply narrow-minded and want these stages to be banned due to "unfairness" or if the players are actually open-minded to allow these. These are...

Starter Stages: Final Destination, Battlefield, Town and City, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt, Peach's Castle 64
Counterpick Stages: Kongo Jungle 64, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Hyrule Castle 64, Suzaku Castle, Halberd, Jungle Hijinx
Final Destination Pick: Omega Stages
Battlefield Pick: Dreamland 64, Big Battlefield, Miiverse
Delfino Pick: Skyloft, Mario Circuit 8, Wuhu Island
Special Pick: Hyrule Temple, Mario Galaxy

That's 22 stages that people are allowed to select in my tournaments. Now you all may jump the gun on this and say that my stage list is wrong, but you understand that this is for an experiment, a test, on people in my tournaments to see if they like or dislike it? Now Temple and Mario Galaxy could be very controversial picks for me to use, but again, I'll be testing the waters when the time comes, alright?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Counterpick Stages: Kongo Jungle 64

I actually sort of wish that Kongo Jungle 64 was legal. I don't see why it isn't - most of the moving parts are extremely predictable. The only issue I could see is the slightly angled parts in the middle of the stage, but those are static and don't take away from a player's skill. I think it should be added, considering Yoshi's Island is a legal stage for Melee.

 

[wizrad]

It was banned in singles because of the possibility of circle camping, but I don't think that's enough to actually warrant a ban. The characters that can run away to win on that stage (ex: Sonic) can do so on any stage.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

It was banned in singles because of the possibility of circle camping, but I don't think that's enough to actually warrant a ban. The characters that can run away to win on that stage (ex: Sonic) can do so on any stage.

It's a shame that there aren't any rules on circle camping. I could understand if it was really close and the game would timeout in, say, 30 seconds, but I would feel circle camping would be an easy fix for tournament hosts. Unfortunately, I have no competitive experience, so this is from a bystander viewpoint. I have no idea what a '5th strike' is or any sort of terminology like that. :T

Wish I could be more helpful.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

It's a shame that there aren't any rules on circle camping. I could understand if it was really close and the game would timeout in, say, 30 seconds, but I would feel circle camping would be an easy fix for tournament hosts. Unfortunately, I have no competitive experience, so this is from a bystander viewpoint. I have no idea what a '5th strike' is or any sort of terminology like that. :T

Wish I could be more helpful.

I don't think adding more unnecessary rules in a game with an abundance of them in the competitive scene is a good idea, especially since circle camping is just a part of the game that we as players and the twitch chat (heh) have to deal with playing against/with or watching. It just sounds needlessly complicated and fuzzy to implement some rule against something that can either be lessened with less camp induced stages, or deal with it and face the wrath of public outcry. That being said, I'm sure all the Sonics, Jigglypuffs (even though he/she is trash ), and Villager would welcome Kongo Jungle again with open arms.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I don't think adding more unnecessary rules in a game with an abundance of them in the competitive scene is a good idea, especially since circle camping is just a part of the game that we as players and the twitch chat (heh) have to deal with playing against/with or watching. It just sounds needlessly complicated and fuzzy to implement some rule against something that can either be lessened with less camp induced stages, or deal with it and face the wrath of public outcry. That being said, I'm sure all the Sonics, Jigglypuffs (even though he/she is trash ), and Villager would welcome Kongo Jungle again with open arms.

I see. I'd like it as a Bowser main because those platforms could be very useful for getting early kills with Flying Slam. Still, it seems like circle camping would be hard for Sonic. Is it possible to intercept or is it impossible to catch them on a map like Kongo Jungle?

 

[Routa]

Is it possible to intercept or is it impossible to catch them on a map like Kongo Jungle?

Not impossible, but hard as ****.

Also didn't we pretty much agree that FLSS is better than Starter/Counterpick when it comes to choosing the stage?

 

[Radical Larry]

I see. I'd like it as a Bowser main because those platforms could be very useful for getting early kills with Flying Slam. Still, it seems like circle camping would be hard for Sonic. Is it possible to intercept or is it impossible to catch them on a map like Kongo Jungle?

A character with low mobility versus a character with high mobility is very hard to catch up...unless the former has higher jumps. Falco vs Yoshi, for example is actually easy for Falco since he can easily catch up with Yoshi in a variety of ways. Then you have characters like Link, who are the literal definition of "screw mobility" when chasing opponents like Sonic, thanks to Link's projectile game.

But then you have Jigglypuff going against Ganondorf...good luck.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

A character with low mobility versus a character with high mobility is very hard to catch up...unless the former has higher jumps. Falco vs Yoshi, for example is actually easy for Falco since he can easily catch up with Yoshi in a variety of ways. Then you have characters like Link, who are the literal definition of "screw mobility" when chasing opponents like Sonic, thanks to Link's projectile game.

But then you have Jigglypuff going against Ganondorf...good luck.

That's a shame. I figured it would have been a great option for competitive fighting.

 

[Xeze]

Another bad thing about Kongo Jungle 64 is the barrel. It refreshes your double jump (or jumps) and you have a hitbox when you shoot yourself out of it. This enhances the circle camping capabilities even further, specially with a character with multiple double jumps (Kirby, Pit, Dark Pit, etc.).

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Not impossible by any means, but it's a miserable time to even reach or interact with that you might as well forget your main that match if your mobility is the pits and can't even realistically reach him. The degrees of abuse varies as a competent Sonic will find some way to get a few hits in or the entire stock and proceed to never be around you the rest of the set.

I've had a list of some stages he can abuse from least to most for some time if you wanna see what I think of the whole ordeal. The way I based this is assuming you have even a modicum worth of good mobility, with no projectile or any means of forcing approach so you have to go in and do it yourself.

Little to no abuse

Final Destination

Fair

Dreamland
Battlefield
Smashville

Hmm

Lylat Cruise
Town & City
Castle Siege

Unplug your controller dawg

Duck Hunt


Getting some input from Sonic mains (not on these boards), they're arguing that when Kongo Jungle was legal for awhile, it was easily prone to keepaway and circle camping the most, especially with the barrel in play and the general stage layout and size, as well as the general platform layout, mostly forced the opponent to have to reach the dang Ledgehog.

But that's just my list based on what I've seen in top level play, from our own scene, and from my experiences dealing with it, as well as numerous chats with some of our top Sonic players in our state.

 

[Radical Larry]

That's a shame. I figured it would have been a great option for competitive fighting.

It can still be, but Jigglypuff gives the almost-impossible time to Ganondorf...if Jiggs has less damage or more stock.

 

[nintendofan1653]

starter stage
*battlefield
*FD
*Delfino Plaza
*Halbred
*Miiverse
*Dreamland 64
*Smashville
*Town and city
*Pkmn Stadium 2
*Lylat Cruise
Counter pick
*Castle siege
*Duck Hunt
*Kongo jungle (starter in doubles)
*Peachs Castle
almost always banned banned
*Hyrule Castle
*port town
*wuhu
*skyworld
*pilotwings
*Kalos league
all the rest are always banned

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay everyone! This is what we've been waiting for! We need both this thread and my countermeasure thread to have new light as Smash 4 has finally been announced for EVO 2016! Now's our chance to advocate a better, broader or more sensible stage list system than ever!

Who's with me?

 

[ぱみゅ]

On the other hand I've been running biweekles and this sunday I might be running an alternative stagelist.

And so it was tested.
Unfortunately half of the used Wii Us lacked the DLCs so they were not used, but here are some impressions:

1. Mushroomy Kingdom U
Surprisingly popular. The deeper into the bracket, the better the players dealt with Nabbit by both avoiding and killing it, rarely getting any grab at all. Icicles were barely an inconvenient.
2. Mario Circuit (Wii U)
I have mixed opinions about this stage, the only real issue was the part where the track formed a ceiling and caused all kinds of crazy interactions, but it felt overall fair.
3. Skyloft
By far, the most popular stage of the event. The fear of pineapple was real at almost every stop of the stage, and players often missed punishes because they didn't pay attention to the changing terrain, but nothing, absolutely nothing made competition impossible; not even difficult.
4. Norfair
Barely picked at all, but when it was players frequently knew what to do. The most extreme thing it has, and possibly its only problem, is that the Lava Plume animation does not match the actual hitbox, which is unfortunate for such a powerful one.
5. Orbital Gate Assault
I personally disliked it a lot, but it was too a very used stage. If the stage gave you any sign of when it is going to change it would be amazing, but lacking markers, the only thing fairly easy to avoid is the Ship's explosion. I didn't double-check if it works on a timer tho.
6. Kalos Pokémon League
Possibly the 3rd most picked stage, everybody seemed to be prepared for it except one kid who died to Registeel's Stomp and was completely stunned by it. Every single person who got hit by its hazards knew they were at a bad spot already anyway and didn't get mad at the stage, but on their own performance. It was amazing.
7. Pokémon Stadium 2
The second most picked stage. Nothing crazy, "janky" or even notable happened. Players used the Electric transformation to somewhat add safety to their smashes, and Flying had one case of Sonic Uthrow>SpringUair being a true kill combo at like 70% but that's about it. There were no cases of zero-to-death, nor complains on "taking too long to land".
8. Gamer
Hard to gauge. It was picked quite often too, and layouts were indeed problematic at times, and while most of the time players seemed to be well aware of 9-Volt, the punishment for her hits were quite strong.
9. Windy Hill Zone
Another perfectly fair stage.... except for the offstage springs. They disrupted recoveries, some characters' options to recover low were nullified forcing them to go up, players going low were spiked by it, and sometimes the spring appeared just too suddenly to try to avoid it. Oh, and one time the Windmill dragged a player to the blastzone, and he was so close to it that he would've died whether he teched it or not.

Overall, Skyloft, Kalos and PS2 presented little to no problems and MKU is very close to them on that regard.
Norfair, Mario Circuit and Windy Hill Zone had few but major downsides.
OGA and Gamer are difficult to judge for me.

I might try another experiment like this later.

At the very least everyone agreed it was extremely fun.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

And so it was tested.
Unfortunately half of the used Wii Us lacked the DLCs so they were not used, but here are some impressions:

1. Mushroomy Kingdom U
Surprisingly popular. The deeper into the bracket, the better the players dealt with Nabbit by both avoiding and killing it, rarely getting any grab at all. Icicles were barely an inconvenient.
2. Mario Circuit (Wii U)
I have mixed opinions about this stage, the only real issue was the part where the track formed a ceiling and caused all kinds of crazy interactions, but it felt overall fair.
3. Skyloft
By far, the most popular stage of the event. The fear of pineapple was real at almost every stop of the stage, and players often missed punishes because they didn't pay attention to the changing terrain, but nothing, absolutely nothing made competition impossible; not even difficult.
4. Norfair
Barely picked at all, but when it was players frequently knew what to do. The most extreme thing it has, and possibly its only problem, is that the Lava Plume animation does not match the actual hitbox, which is unfortunate for such a powerful one.
5. Orbital Gate Assault
I personally disliked it a lot, but it was too a very used stage. If the stage gave you any sign of when it is going to change it would be amazing, but lacking markers, the only thing fairly easy to avoid is the Ship's explosion. I didn't double-check if it works on a timer tho.
6. Kalos Pokémon League
Possibly the 3rd most picked stage, everybody seemed to be prepared for it except one kid who died to Registeel's Stomp and was completely stunned by it. Every single person who got hit by its hazards knew they were at a bad spot already anyway and didn't get mad at the stage, but on their own performance. It was amazing.
7. Pokémon Stadium 2
The second most picked stage. Nothing crazy, "janky" or even notable happened. Players used the Electric transformation to somewhat add safety to their smashes, and Flying had one case of Sonic Uthrow>SpringUair being a true kill combo at like 70% but that's about it. There were no cases of zero-to-death, nor complains on "taking too long to land".
8. Gamer
Hard to gauge. It was picked quite often too, and layouts were indeed problematic at times, and while most of the time players seemed to be well aware of 9-Volt, the punishment for her hits were quite strong.
9. Windy Hill Zone
Another perfectly fair stage.... except for the offstage springs. They disrupted recoveries, some characters' options to recover low were nullified forcing them to go up, players going low were spiked by it, and sometimes the spring appeared just too suddenly to try to avoid it. Oh, and one time the Windmill dragged a player to the blastzone, and he was so close to it that he would've died whether he teched it or not.

Overall, Skyloft, Kalos and PS2 presented little to no problems and MKU is very close to them on that regard.
Norfair, Mario Circuit and Windy Hill Zone had few but major downsides.
OGA and Gamer are difficult to judge for me.

I might try another experiment like this later.

At the very least everyone agreed it was extremely fun.

For OGA, I just rechecked, the stage runs on a two minute cycle, and the transformations happen at the same time each cycle, no variance.

 

[epicnights]

With the announcement of Smash 4 at EVO, we need to seriously get this train going. Delfino and Castle Siege are the two priorities for legality, since Halberd is the most disputed of the three that have been falling out of favor. Any other stage additions are simply extras, to be quite frank.

 

[Radical Larry]

With the announcement of Smash 4 at EVO, we need to seriously get this train going. Delfino and Castle Siege are the two priorities for legality, since Halberd is the most disputed of the three that have been falling out of favor. Any other stage additions are simply extras, to be quite frank.

We have a long enough time to get all of these done. But I cannot emphasize the importance of legality for the following stages alongside Siege and Delfino: Miiverse, Dreamland, Mushroom Kingdom U and Skyloft.

We also need to emphasize importance of counterpick stages for the following: Mario Circuit 8, Pokemon Stadium 2 and Hyrule Castle.

We don't need to simply discuss the normal stages, but we need to push for the higher stage count of balanced stages in the game, and even mix it all with fun. Wouldn't you agree?

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Check out this graphic I'm working on for Midnight Grime this Thursday. These will be available at all setups to make the process significantly easier. Nine stages, lets goooo. I'm pumped.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Check out this graphic I'm working on for Midnight Grime this Thursday. These will be available at all setups to make the process significantly easier. Nine stages, lets goooo. I'm pumped.

While I do like the graphic, why is stage striking 3-4-1? Is that to reduce complexity? It just seems odd compared to 1-2-2-2-1. Also, I think Player 2 gets the better deal, having a 50% shot at whatever stage they want from the six stages remaining at their turn

 

[RIP|Merrick]

While I do like the graphic, why is stage striking 3-4-1? Is that to reduce complexity? It just seems odd compared to 1-2-2-2-1. Also, I think Player 2 gets the better deal, having a 50% shot at whatever stage they want from the six stages remaining at their turn

I could have sworn 3-4-1 was the most optimal stage striking procedure, but even if it's not at least for this event and as a an attempt to ease people into the process I want to keep it simple for now. Not too concerned about the advantage of being the first or second to strike as I am to get these stages played on. I talked to the others in our scene who brought up the same point, and they all admit they would like my way more anyway since they tend to fumble with numbers even with the instructions in front of them, oops.

I'm always open to change, though.

Hopefully we get much needed data regarding some of these changes. I'm gonna ask participants post tournament on their thoughts on some of the stages and what they generally think.

Also, this is gonna be streamed, so that will be fun if any of ya'll are looking to study up on these stages and how people play them in neutral or just to chill around.

 

[Yikarur]

I think the only stages you could push for at max are Castle Siege and Delfino.
Wuhu Island is generally despised.
Halberd is terrible.
everything else isn't up for debate for 99% of people.

 

[Respect38]

Why isn't Peach's Castle or Pokémon Stadium 2 something that we could push for "at the max"? It seems like both of those stages suffer from lack of momentum more than anything else [PS2 being banned in Brawl and Peach's Castle coming along midway through the game's existence] and that could be fixed by just having more tournaments utilize those stages so that they can gain some momentum as perfectly acceptable stages.

[And there's no reason not to consider Wuhu or Skyland to not be considered in this list, unless someone has explained to me since the last time I asked why the transforming stages are considered to be identical in terms of niche-filling]

 

[Ghostbone]

Pokemon Stadium 2 has been discussed 100 times, combos off the top that start at like 10% during wind are unacceptable for competitive gameplay, especially when one of the characters who can do that is the best character in the game.

 

[Respect38]

Is there any video of these easy 10% to death combos? [I would hope so, but, if not, then going into Special Smash and enabling low gravity is sufficient to get a quick example of the setup]

EDIT: Nevermind, that's Brawl-only, I guess. Unless I'm remembering incorrectly, they must've made wind way lower gravity in Sm4sh than in Brawl.

Also, all of this assumes that, on the one hand, that the neutral game of the characters that have easy 10% to death combos isn't harmed by the low gravity conditions, [which would make the transformation less in their favor] because I've definitely heard people argue in favor of the idea that, in Brawl, the low gravity scenario actually hurt Meta Knight's neutral game. I don't know if that's necessarily true [and I'm not saying that it would be true in Smash 4 anyway], but it does make sense that certain characters would suffer more under low gravity conditions. [and how these characters do under the wind transformation is actually pretty easily simulated by doing the aforementioned Special Smash setup]

I just hope that it is realized what we do lose by banning it--we lose both the only Pokémon Stadium platform setup that we have in Sm4sh, and we also lose a counterpick for any potential mid or low tiers that might benefit from that platform setup as well as utilize the transformations well. [in particular, those that perform well under low gravity situations]

 

[Radical Larry]

Here's the argument against the competitive stereotype about Pokemon Stadium 2's wind portion of the stage, of which I decided to test out myself. Let me get a few notes toward everyone to clear this up, shall I?

First and foremost the change of the wind affects the knockback in a way that is actually different than people would think. Most people would think that thanks to the wind, we can get around 10% combos. Actually, testing proves that this cannot be the case and is in fact, the opposite. Knockback is barely increased in combo capabilities as tested with the lovely Mario and Mario on Training Mode, and what's more is that combo abilities are actually nerfed within the wind portion due to the increase in jumping height and decrease in falling speed. The wind does NOT increase knockback enough to actually make a huge effect on the combo abilities of characters.

The wind however does increase the chance of dying earlier, and even that's by a small margin. I've once again tested with Mario, center of the stage, and used Mario's Up Smash as the determining factor and came out with the results:

Normal/Non-Wind Variations: 117% Damage to KO
Wind Variation: 105% Damage to KO

That's 12%, and still, Mario's Up Smash would still KO late. So there is only an increase in jumping height and a decrease in survivability and falling speed. So what about the combo ability. Can you combo in 10% combos? The answer is no, you can't, because for one, the wind would ultimately defeat the purpose of comboing since characters would be jumping too high, two, due to the floatiness of the stage, opponents can get away easily (Ganondorf can use Wizard's Foot to fall down into a better position so he won't get hit by Villager's aerials, for example), and three and the most important of all, knockback remains almost unchanged!

So actually testing the stage proves that the changes to anything would be minor nerfs to survivability and nerfs to different combos and the actual ability to get out of them. Also, get this, the wind portion of the stage will take quite a long time to even come to begin with, so there shouldn't be any such worry about the wind portion if a Smash match were to last less than 2 or 3 minutes.

So there's the counterargument against people's claims that the wind portion is cheap, when that was, as a whole, a slight over-exaggeration of the stage. In conclusion, there should be no reasoning to ban the stage other than misconception and the thought that it does harm to characters by making others have swift combos at 10%, when that's not the case at all.

Pokemon Stadium 2 has been discussed 100 times, combos off the top that start at like 10% during wind are unacceptable for competitive gameplay, especially when one of the characters who can do that is the best character in the game.

I'd like to see these combos that can never exist because you don't even have a grasp as to how the wind portion of the stage works. Go on, show me, show me these non-existent combos. And besides, one portion of the stage shouldn't be enough to ban it.

I think the only stages you could push for at max are Castle Siege and Delfino.
Wuhu Island is generally despised.
Halberd is terrible.
everything else isn't up for debate for 99% of people.

Should I whip out the testing machine again for Wuhu Island?

 

[Megamang]

Good lord...

Just because you starting typing 'better', tested (completely and totally incorrectly), and want something, doesnt mean you should be a ****. You are condescending someone who is totally correct, by the way. He is a well known and highly skilled player.

People are referring to roof combos. Of course the wind doesnt boost knockback significantly. It allows characters (mostly top tier ones, by the way) to bring you so close to the blast zone so quickly that you die to their finisher. I cant believe im explaining this, these combos have been around for months.

 

[Ghostbone]

I'd like to see these combos that can never exist because you don't even have a grasp as to how the wind portion of the stage works. Go on, show me, show me these non-existent combos. And besides, one portion of the stage shouldn't be enough to ban it.

D-throw > uair > uair as sheik kills ness at 10%

Go test things yourself before you call other people out and make yourself look bad lmao.

 

[Radical Larry]

D-throw > uair > uair as sheik kills ness at 10%

Go test things yourself before you call other people out and make yourself look bad lmao.

Like I'm really going to be affected when I play my imaginary Ness. Alright, you put in just one character, one character only, and you disregard in telling me if it was with DI, with bad DI or with no DI. Tell me who else this works against, tell me if you can't DI out of it and give more explanations.

Good lord...

Just because you starting typing 'better', tested (completely and totally incorrectly), and want something, doesnt mean you should be a ****. You are condescending someone who is totally correct, by the way. He is a well known and highly skilled player.

People are referring to roof combos. Of course the wind doesnt boost knockback significantly. It allows characters (mostly top tier ones, by the way) to bring you so close to the blast zone so quickly that you die to their finisher. I cant believe im explaining this, these combos have been around for months.

Roof combos can just be DI'd out of; a character like Sheik won't be able to exactly get an opponent if they DI or SDI away from the final hit. And second, I wasn't just aiming to go for the roof combos, I decided to test the portion as a whole. Thirdly, I don't care who it is I'm arguing against in the community if I can actually prove my own valid cases for a stage; someone can be the best player in Smash Bros. and I wouldn't treat them like they're all high and mighty in an argument.

And besides, so what if I type better or worse? Should that even matter to people?

 

[epicnights]

D-throw > uair > uair as sheik kills ness at 10%

Go test things yourself before you call other people out and make yourself look bad lmao.

Honestly... I feel like that's the point of the wind transformation. Instead of trying to stay out of the air to avoid juggles, you're trying to avoid being punished on the ground. It promotes a different kind of play almost. In fact, stall-and-falls like Tink's Dair actually become quite useful in the wind transformation, as it allows him to quickly reach the ground to regain his double jump and take to the skies again.

 

[Ghostbone]

Like I'm really going to be affected when I play my imaginary Ness. Alright, you put in just one character, one character only, and you disregard in telling me if it was with DI, with bad DI or with no DI. Tell me who else this works against, tell me if you can't DI out of it and give more explanations.



Roof combos can just be DI'd out of; a character like Sheik won't be able to exactly get an opponent if they DI or SDI away from the final hit. And second, I wasn't just aiming to go for the roof combos, I decided to test the portion as a whole. Thirdly, I don't care who it is I'm arguing against in the community if I can actually prove my own valid cases for a stage; someone can be the best player in Smash Bros. and I wouldn't treat them like they're all high and mighty in an argument.

And besides, so what if I type better or worse? Should that even matter to people?

Dude how are you this ignorant.

Ness was just the example, it works on every character, the %s would just be slightly higher or lower.
You can't DI out of it, if you want to argue stuff, you should at least go test it yourself before you spew bull**** around lmao.

Roof combos are the issue with the stage, you can't just ignore roof combos and claim the stage is fine lmao.

There are plenty of other roof combos on wind as well, DK cargo u-throw > uair > uair kills around the 40% range iirc.
Plus you can bet if the stage was legal people would be labbing slightly more complex roof combos that kill just as early as the sheik one.

 

[Xeze]

I highly doubt that Delfino and Castle Siege will come back.

On the other hand, legalize Umbra Clock Tower and keep Duck Hunt.

 

[Megamang]

DH is unbearable against a campy shiek, being closer to the blast zone sucks vs any shiek (needle bouncing fish setups kill you significantly sooner). It also ruins little mac totally. And any character that can outcamp is encouraged to there.

Instead of asking why not ban a stage, why not ask what the stage adds?

Just playing devils advocate here, i personally am Ok with duck hunt being there, but it does waste my ban vs shiek and force me to play on TaC and get kill confirmed...

 

[Pazx]

I've never seen 3-4-1 striking before but it seems interesting, I'm not 100% sure if it's balanced though (obviously 1-2-2-2-1 is the best but it does admittedly take awhile). I'm a big fan of 2-3-1 for 7 stages so I understand the thought process behind it, I'm just not sure it satisfies all the requirements.

DH is unbearable against a campy shiek, being closer to the blast zone sucks vs any shiek (needle bouncing fish setups kill you significantly sooner). It also ruins little mac totally. And any character that can outcamp is encouraged to there.

Instead of asking why not ban a stage, why not ask what the stage adds?

Just playing devils advocate here, i personally am Ok with duck hunt being there, but it does waste my ban vs shiek and force me to play on TaC and get kill confirmed...

Duck Hunt's side blast zones are not closer, that is the camera playing tricks on your eyes. With this knowledge, I encourage you not to ban DH against Sheik, as both FD and T&C are likely better stages for her.