Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Radical Larry]

Should I try re-writing my "Expanded Stage Proposition/Rule" to a much better length and detailing? I feel like it's a better time now than last time. Regardless, ParanoidDrone did make me think for a bit, and if I hosted a tournament, I'd go out of my way for 21 stages:

Starter: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Town and City, Miiverse and Dreamland
Counterpick: Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt and Mario Circuit 8
Special Conditions: Hyrule Temple, Mario Galaxy, Boxing Ring, Pilotwings, Gaur Plains, Windy Hill Zone and Jungle Hijinx

The special condition stages have special requirements, as the bottom portion of Temple will be disallowed to use, camping at Mario Galaxy, Boxing Ring and Gaur Plains's edges remove a stock from the camper after an allotted total of 30 seconds. Camping under the red soft platform or at the propeller of the yellow plane for a total of 45 seconds is liable to make the camper lose a stock automatically on Pilotwings. Circle Camping on ALL stages within a grand total of a minute will result in the loss of a stock on the Circle Camper, but doing it again for another thirty seconds results in an automatic loss for the person doing so.

This is meant for the Special Condition stages to remain balanced and to speed up gameplay as a whole in my hosted tournaments at least.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Should I try re-writing my "Expanded Stage Proposition/Rule" to a much better length and detailing? I feel like it's a better time now than last time. Regardless, ParanoidDrone did make me think for a bit, and if I hosted a tournament, I'd go out of my way for 21 stages:

Starter: Final Destination, Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Town and City, Miiverse and Dreamland
Counterpick: Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Castle Siege, Halberd, Duck Hunt and Mario Circuit 8
Special Conditions: Hyrule Temple, Mario Galaxy, Boxing Ring, Pilotwings, Gaur Plains, Windy Hill Zone and Jungle Hijinx

The special condition stages have special requirements, as the bottom portion of Temple will be disallowed to use, camping at Mario Galaxy, Boxing Ring and Gaur Plains's edges remove a stock from the camper after an allotted total of 30 seconds. Camping under the red soft platform or at the propeller of the yellow plane for a total of 45 seconds is liable to make the camper lose a stock automatically on Pilotwings. Circle Camping on ALL stages within a grand total of a minute will result in the loss of a stock on the Circle Camper, but doing it again for another thirty seconds results in an automatic loss for the person doing so.

This is meant for the Special Condition stages to remain balanced and to speed up gameplay as a whole in my hosted tournaments at least.

The problem with camping rules is that you need a judge/referee-type person to arbitrate disputes. Although I'm generally willing to experiment with stages, I think that from a procedural POV it's better to avoid cases where one needs to pause the game (or worse, play it through to the end and watch the replay) in order to determine if a player is in violation of the rules or not. He-said-she-said situations can turn nasty.

So I'd just as soon remove the entire "special conditions" category rather than deal with the mess. (Although Windy Hill Zone might be workable under normal conditions; I'm not sure why it's there in the first place.)

 

[aεrgiα]

tfw you write out a post, click on post reply and then get refered to the log in screen, causing you to lose the post TT_TT

anyway what i tried to write about was mario maker, i think at the very least that stage deserves some discussion, the only intrusive issues with the stage can be the lava and walkoffs afaik, first thing is that from my experience on this stage, those 2 are a rare thing to have in the stage layout, and secondly, its nothing a "restart/reset" wouldnt fix, now before you go on saying time is an issue, all i can say is that its done with hand warmers, button checks and also sometimes during stage counterpicking and when accidentally clicking on the wrong stage or the Ω/standard version when they wanted the other version(and sometimes where i have no clue why, when players pick a stage, immediately pause and leave, just to pick the same stage again) and no one complains about time in those cases. now im not trying to say it should be legal, i just want to hear thoughts on it since i think this stage hasnt gotten the chance it potentially deserves :/

 

[ParanoidDrone]

tfw you write out a post, click on post reply and then get refered to the log in screen, causing you to lose the post TT_TT

anyway what i tried to write about was mario maker, i think at the very least that stage deserves some discussion, the only intrusive issues with the stage can be the lava and walkoffs afaik, first thing is that from my experience on this stage, those 2 are a rare thing to have in the stage layout, and secondly, its nothing a "restart/reset" wouldnt fix, now before you go on saying time is an issue, all i can say is that its done with hand warmers, button checks and also sometimes during stage counterpicking and when accidentally clicking on the wrong stage or the Ω/standard version when they wanted the other version(and sometimes where i have no clue why, when players pick a stage, immediately pause and leave, just to pick the same stage again). now im not trying to say it should be legal, i just want to hear thoughts on it since i think this stage hasnt gotten the chance it potentially deserves :/

Mario Maker is unquestionably a great stage for messing around on, but there are so many ways the different elements can combine I'm not sure it's feasible to restart the match until something acceptable crops up. It's not like Gamer where there are only so many possibilities it can pick from.

 

[Routa]

I just love when people whine/complain about stage elements being random. Yet these same people are ok with G&W Judge. Go figure...

Also I would not call hitboxes during the transformation part random. I mean if you get launched towards a rock formation... But hey why you should take someone like me seriously who wants to use FLSS and have PS2 as a legal stage.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

I just love when people whine/complain about stage elements being random. Yet these same people are ok with G&W Judge. Go figure...

Also I would not call hitboxes during the transformation part random. I mean if you get launched towards a rock formation... But hey why you should take someone like me seriously who wants to use FLSS and have PS2 as a legal stage.

I just want to say that in my opinion, Judge's randomness isn't really a big deal. We have a fairly good G&W at our scene, and he hits with judge maybe 20-30% of the times he throws it out. It's not super great. Combine the fact that its a 1/9 chance you'll even get the kill shot, it never comes up. The guy is a RNG god too, 9's everywhere, but he never hits it enough to call it game changing, or even game affecting.

But, the second part, yeah, that's a cool thing. As long as its consistent and can be foreseen by timing or checking the background quick, that's something that benefits a player with superior stage knowledge, and is fine by me.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I've been thinking of possibly seeing if my local TO would be interested in doing a tourney with debatably legal stages (shoutouts to VSGC | DC) since we are known for doing tourneys with unusual rulesets (Jank City, Random Partner doubles). The only issue is, I haven't really had the time to gather at least 7 stages to make a stagelist with. I'd love to see suggestions for such a ruleset to present with my idea. It doesn't have to be limited to just 7, either; any amount of stages is appreciated.

As yet another experiment, I'm running the following stage list in the next coming weeks.

Peach's Castle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyworld
Gamer
Norfair
Wuhu Island
Mushroom Kingdom U

I don't want to run our previous banned stages (Castle Seige, Halberd, etc) only because people are already familiar with them and I'm not running any current legal stages like I did with Tech or Treat to force people to learn and experiment with new stages and challenge others thinking on what qualifies as a legal stage. I'm also unsure of Midgar at the moment.

My quick thought process behind these stage picks.

Peach's Castle 64 is a stage I've always believed should be legal from my extensive testing of it and trying things out on it for hours. But despite the relatively small (albeit potential) problems with it, it's a really solid stage with a unique layout that wasn't even given a shot in the state. Time to fix that.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is a stage that was legal before until we saw legit issues with it we took to heart. Most of the transformations are fine enough, with the conveyor in my time with it being very awkward. Wanted to give it another shot.

Gamer was fine the time we let it legal at Tech or Treat, and I saw some really creative combos out of the "caught Mom" hitstun.

Norfair, I play a lot of Brawl Minus Lavaville, and this stage is just fun. That's the purpose of this tournament. Though the better player WILL be taking the losers money!

Wuhu Island was legal for sometime before it was dropped for reasons I don't really know. Perfect chance to let people play on it again in a tournament setting.

Mushroom Kingdom U should just plain be legal in my experience. Seriously. Amazing base layouts for every transformation and the hazards are tame and (mostly) easy to recognize and avoid. This was the surprise hit last time.

 

[Radical Larry]

As yet another experiment, I'm running the following stage list in the next coming weeks.

Peach's Castle 64
Pokemon Stadium 2
Skyworld
Gamer
Norfair
Wuhu Island
Mushroom Kingdom U

I don't want to run our previous banned stages (Castle Seige, Halberd, etc) only because people are already familiar with them and I'm not running any current legal stages like I did with Tech or Treat to force people to learn and experiment with new stages and challenge others thinking on what qualifies as a legal stage. I'm also unsure of Midgar at the moment.

My quick thought process behind these stage picks.

Peach's Castle 64 is a stage I've always believed should be legal from my extensive testing of it and trying things out on it for hours. But despite the relatively small (albeit potential) problems with it, it's a really solid stage with a unique layout that wasn't even given a shot in the state. Time to fix that.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is a stage that was legal before until we saw legit issues with it we took to heart. Most of the transformations are fine enough, with the conveyor in my time with it being very awkward. Wanted to give it another shot.

Gamer was fine the time we let it legal at Tech or Treat, and I saw some really creative combos out of the "caught Mom" hitstun.

Norfair, I play a lot of Brawl Minus Lavaville, and this stage is just fun. That's the purpose of this tournament. Though the better player WILL be taking the losers money!

Wuhu Island was legal for sometime before it was dropped for reasons I don't really know. Perfect chance to let people play on it again in a tournament setting.

Mushroom Kingdom U should just plain be legal in my experience. Seriously. Amazing base layouts for every transformation and the hazards are tame and (mostly) easy to recognize and avoid. This was the surprise hit last time.

Looks like I have someone who agrees with three stages I want to see legal.

The problem with camping rules is that you need a judge/referee-type person to arbitrate disputes. Although I'm generally willing to experiment with stages, I think that from a procedural POV it's better to avoid cases where one needs to pause the game (or worse, play it through to the end and watch the replay) in order to determine if a player is in violation of the rules or not. He-said-she-said situations can turn nasty.

So I'd just as soon remove the entire "special conditions" category rather than deal with the mess. (Although Windy Hill Zone might be workable under normal conditions; I'm not sure why it's there in the first place.)

Now on the special conditions thing, me and another person would be the refs to look at the time, or heck, I'd get a stop watch or two in the event that there are these broken rules I had. That way I can accumulate time in a better manner with the "special conditions" stages.

 

[aεrgiα]

Mario Maker is unquestionably a great stage for messing around on, but there are so many ways the different elements can combine I'm not sure it's feasible to restart the match until something acceptable crops up. It's not like Gamer where there are only so many possibilities it can pick from.

but what im saying is, from my experience most of the stage layouts have been acceptable the first time, and in the rare case that wasnt the case, the second time has worked for me, but i may have just been "lucky" in that regard so im asking for opinions/ experiences from others, also im not sure whether it really is completely random as ive had the exact same lay out pop up 2x before :/

 

[Routa]

I just want to say that in my opinion, Judge's randomness isn't really a big deal. We have a fairly good G&W at our scene, and he hits with judge maybe 20-30% of the times he throws it out. It's not super great. Combine the fact that its a 1/9 chance you'll even get the kill shot, it never comes up. The guy is a RNG god too, 9's everywhere, but he never hits it enough to call it game changing, or even game affecting.

It was... what is that word again... Well comparing something less extreme. But you got my point which is nice.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Benefit of Gamer over the Super Mario Maker stage at least is Gamer is always guaranteed to not have any permanent walkoffs as the base main platform is always the same.

 

[epicnights]

You know what. I'm getting the Duck Hunt stage banned. Let's take a poll. Should the Duck Hunt stage be in or out?

— Omni ☕️ (@InfernoOmni) January 13, 2016

I'd rather play on Hanenbow rather than the Duck Hunt Stage. That's how much I hate it. pic.twitter.com/y8mrlF86Fq

— Omni ☕️ (@InfernoOmni) January 13, 2016

Since @InfernoOmni is talking about stages.

FD, BF/DL, SV, TaC, and Lylat.

All starter stages 2/3 sets 1 ban, 3/5 no bans. Best stagelist

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 13, 2016

This is insanity.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

You know what. I'm getting the Duck Hunt stage banned. Let's take a poll. Should the Duck Hunt stage be in or out?

— Omni ☕️ (@InfernoOmni) January 13, 2016

I'd rather play on Hanenbow rather than the Duck Hunt Stage. That's how much I hate it. pic.twitter.com/y8mrlF86Fq

— Omni ☕️ (@InfernoOmni) January 13, 2016

Since @InfernoOmni is talking about stages.

FD, BF/DL, SV, TaC, and Lylat.

All starter stages 2/3 sets 1 ban, 3/5 no bans. Best stagelist

— Larry Lurr (@LarryLurr) January 13, 2016

This is insanity.

This is actually ugly. I knew knew knew this was the path Smash 4 was heading toward. And I refuse to follow it. Absolutely not having it.

Even worse is just peeking at some of the comments for these threads, you can see the hate toward Lylat Cruise and wanting it banned, Duck Hunt and the ducks "messing up" hitboxes, oh lawdy.

This community is screwed before the game even really started fam.

Also, apparently Omni is gonna do a five reasons why he hates Duck Hunt video? Hoo boy...

 

[Yikarur]

everyone wants everything banned always.
rip Smash 4

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Saw some comments about Town & City, too, people wanting that stage banned left and right, and they seem very genuine about it.

Why are we encouraging stupidity? There is no reason or rhyme to what happens in the Smash 4 community, things go without a trace and people scream for bans by the dozen. Honestly really frustrating to see how horribly limited and restricted things have gotten by the widespread so quickly.

 

[aεrgiα]

the only thing i "hate" about duck hunt is the camera, i actually love the ducks and the mechanics behind them, its the reason i like the stage so much despite the annoying camera :/ and really, if people cant deal with the ducks then realistically, they need to get good. seriously, i hate the argument of "git gud" but theres nothing else i can say, im just stumped people really think theyre even a problem it gives the game "flavour", its something different :/ but hey prophet sakurai knew it best when he made the for glory ruleset, no miis, 2 stock, 5 mins, fd only, shame he didnt add in smashville

 

[Radical Larry]

The only thing we CAN do is right now take a vote on my Expanded Stage List Countermeasure (I've been throwing in tentative titles everywhere). I'll be honest, this countermeasure is probably the ONLY thing that would be able to save stages like Duck Hunt, Town and City and Lylat from eventually being banned due to butthurt people. (Emphasis on probably and butthurt)

Should I reveal what my Countermeasure truly is in this or in a different competitive topic?

 

[Routa]

Great... First the pretty much ban my main and now they ban one of the few stages that I can practice with my 3DS (2DS to be exact) and it also happens to be my favourite out of none transforming legal stages (well tbh Brinstar is my love and life, but Wii U doesn't have it soo...).

Radical Larry sure go ahead. I ain't stopping you.

 

[wizrad]

Great... First the pretty much ban my main and now they ban one of the few stages that I can practice with my 3DS (2DS to be exact) and it also happens to be my favourite out of none transforming legal stages (well tbh Brinstar is my love and life, but Wii U doesn't have it soo...).

Radical Larry sure go ahead. I ain't stopping you.

Welcome to Smash 4. Pick another character. You don't exist.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As of about 10 minutes ago the poll is sitting at 60:40 in favor of the stage. So that's...something, I guess?

I still tweeted at him asking why the stage is so hated. Not sure if it'll do any good. Twitter is awful as a debate medium anyway.

 

[Radical Larry]

As of about 10 minutes ago the poll is sitting at 60:40 in favor of the stage. So that's...something, I guess?

I still tweeted at him asking why the stage is so hated. Not sure if it'll do any good. Twitter is awful as a debate medium anyway.

Those Social Justice Warriors and Feminists did a number on it and made it seem like a joke.
But this is Smash 4, not Larry's Rant Time.

Regardless, everyone, I'm preparing to make the entirety of the countermeasure, as it's going to be an extremely long message to the community from me regarding the current status of applicable stages in listing, the situation of banning stages otherwise balanced or counterpick balanced, discuss certain stages being prime for unbanning, hoping to set an equal ratio of starter and CP stages and it will be giving good solutions as to how to fix the current stage dwindling problem and will give a set minimum requirement of stages, but the last of this will be in the form of a poll with three different answers for minimum stages (as there will be no maximum amount).

 

[Shouxiao]

Saw some comments about Town & City, too, people wanting that stage banned left and right, and they seem very genuine about it.

Why are we encouraging stupidity? There is no reason or rhyme to what happens in the Smash 4 community, things go without a trace and people scream for bans by the dozen. Honestly really frustrating to see how horribly limited and restricted things have gotten by the widespread so quickly.

Really. Why are they trying to ban stages that are neutral/counterpick? Now I can see arguments for Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, Halberd, and a few others but stages like Town and City and Dunk Hunt are fine.

I still something like this should be done.

Starters
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
One Omega stage that the community can agree on(the Omega stage has walls that allow wall jump/cling)

Counterpick
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Dream Land 64
Lylat Cruise

Also a few more counterpicks can be maybe.

4 starters and 4 counterpick. 8 stages or more if people agree on some debatable counterpicks.

 

[Pazx]

Really. Why are they trying to ban stages that are neutral/counterpick? Now I can see arguments for Pokemon Stadium 2, Castle Siege, Halberd, and a few others but stages like Town and City and Dunk Hunt are fine.

I still something like this should be done.

Starters
Final Destination
Battlefield
Smashville
One Omega stage that the community can agree on(the Omega stage has walls that allow wall jump/cling)

Counterpick
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Dream Land 64
Lylat Cruise

Also a few more counterpicks can be maybe.

4 starters and 4 counterpick. 8 stages or more if people agree on some debatable counterpicks.

You need an odd number of starters, also having 2 Omega stages (FD + Omega) is a pretty terrible idea.

 

[Shouxiao]

You need an odd number of starters, also having 2 Omega stages (FD + Omega) is a pretty terrible idea.

Ah ok. Well remove Omegas from list and that is still 7 stages to work with. If people can agree on some of the debatable stages like Halberd, Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 2, Wuhu Island, etc then that would be more counterpicks.

I was thinking Omega with walls could be an option sense the option to go under the stage would not be there. Also grass on certain stages can effect things.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Ah ok. Well remove Omegas from list and that is still 7 stages to work with. If people can agree on some of the debatable stages like Halberd, Delfino, Pokemon Stadium 2, Wuhu Island, etc then that would be more counterpicks.

I was thinking Omega with walls could be an option sense the option to go under the stage would not be there. Also grass on certain stages can effect things.

The issue with an Omega, any Omega, being considered separate from FD is that the differences provided by e.g. walls vs. no walls are incredibly minor compared to the main feature of the stage: no platforms. If you play as someone who doesn't like the layout, or your opponent does, then you need 2 bans to actually eliminate that option.

This is the same reason no one ever seriously advocated for Miiverse being a separate stage from Battlefield. Yes, the underside of Miiverse is shaped differently and can't pineapple surprise you, but it's still essentially Battlefield with a new coat of paint. So it is with FD/Omegas.

A saner rule is to allow a player to substitute FD with an Omega at their discretion when counterpicking to it.

 

[jespoke]

I can see how if you think being good at this game is about tech skill and reflexes, Duck Hunt is a stage to remove.
I also think if that is your opinion, you are probably playing the wrong game.
Clever use of the completely predictable and influencable dog to your advantage is a sign of a great player to me.

Tech skill, reflexes, but smart decision-making above all. That is what makes a great Smash player to me.

On a different note: People arguing against Lylat say "It forces projectile users to play differently" and i respond with "yes, that is why i picked it against you". It is not like it is that terrible for most characters anyway.

 

[Wintropy]

On a different note: People arguing against Lylat say "It forces projectile users to play differently" and i respond with "yes, that is why i picked it against you". It is not like it is that terrible for most characters anyway.

Very well said. It seems that, in the competitive scene's rush to create a "fair and balanced" game, we strive to homogenise everything we can and eliminate any sense of individuality or complexity.

It's a fine line, to be fair, and that's why there's so much debate on it. You don't want something that can genuinely affect the game in a non-trivial and potentially biased manner (hence why we don't use stages with pronounced hazards, Pyrosphere and whatnot), but at the same time, reducing everything to the lowest common denominator diminishes the depth of technique and strategy the game requires. Having a stage list where everyone is fundamentally equal is a noble goal in theory, but if a big part of stage choice is the fact that it can be used to your advantage and your opponent's disadvantage, excising that is denying an important part of the meta.

 

[Radical Larry]

Wintropy Wouldn't you agree that even the most balanced of stages are also unbalanced to various characters and match-ups? Take Battlefield for example, as it's horrendously unbalanced in favor to Meta Knight against many characters due to the top platform and how low the ceiling is to the top platform. Meta Knight would also be at an advantage by staying under the platforms and applying pressure when the opponent just cannot retaliate as well. Lastly, he has his Up Throw, which kills almost insanely early thanks to the top platform; this also applies to Charizard's kill throw.

Also to everyone here, I've finally created my thread that I promised:

http://smashboards.com/threads/the-expanded-minimum-stage-rule-u-s-a.428423/

 

[Wintropy]

Wintropy Wouldn't you agree that even the most balanced of stages are also unbalanced to various characters and match-ups? Take Battlefield for example, as it's horrendously unbalanced in favor to Meta Knight against many characters due to the top platform and how low the ceiling is to the top platform. Meta Knight would also be at an advantage by staying under the platforms and applying pressure when the opponent just cannot retaliate as well. Lastly, he has his Up Throw, which kills almost insanely early thanks to the top platform; this also applies to Charizard's kill throw.

Well yeah, it's not really possible to have a stage list where every stage is equally balanced to every character. And to be fair, I don't think that's what conservative stage lists try to do: they're not promoting an egalitarian playing field for everybody, because that's just not possible. Even Final D is noticeably skewed towards / against certain characters.

My issue with trying to pick off stages like Duck Hunt and Town & City is that it diminishes the depth of the game, at least from where I'm standing, and for minute reasons. I can see where people are coming from ("We already have to deal with the other guy's character and all their tricks and counterpicks, why should we have to deal with an intervening dog?"), but at the same time, it just strikes me as not wanting to have to deal with things. I don't think that's a healthy mentality to have. It just seems to me that people will opt to sweep things under the rug if the alternative is using the complexity of the game to their advantage, and I think that's a very sad state of affairs for a meta that otherwise encourages knowledge of the opponent and intelligent play as well as tech skill and reflexes.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well yeah, it's not really possible to have a stage list where every stage is equally balanced to every character. And to be fair, I don't think that's what conservative stage lists try to do: they're not promoting an egalitarian playing field for everybody, because that's just not possible. Even Final D is noticeably skewed towards / against certain characters.

My issue with trying to pick off stages like Duck Hunt and Town & City is that it diminishes the depth of the game, at least from where I'm standing, and for minute reasons. I can see where people are coming from ("We already have to deal with the other guy's character and all their tricks and counterpicks, why should we have to deal with an intervening dog?"), but at the same time, it just strikes me as not wanting to have to deal with things. I don't think that's a healthy mentality to have. It just seems to me that people will opt to sweep things under the rug if the alternative is using the complexity of the game to their advantage, and I think that's a very sad state of affairs for a meta that otherwise encourages knowledge of the opponent and intelligent play as well as tech skill and reflexes.

Well you make some really great statements, you know. Conservatives just do not acknowledge that you NEED to create strategies in a game that's supposed to be all about strategy, and by eliminating stages little by little, the equality soon becomes more and more skewed into imbalance and inevitable "overpowered" characters. The lower the stage list, the less strategies, the less diverse tournaments may eventually be, no?

 

[Tinkerer]

Well you make some really great statements, you know. Conservatives just do not acknowledge that you NEED to create strategies in a game that's supposed to be all about strategy, and by eliminating stages little by little, the equality soon becomes more and more skewed into imbalance and inevitable "overpowered" characters. The lower the stage list, the less strategies, the less diverse tournaments may eventually be, no?

This is completely backwards. The reason people limit stages isn't because they don't like diversity in gameplay, it's because they do. If your objective is purely to win, like in a tournament setting, then almost every non-legal stage within the current rulesets either has a winning strategy or a winning character. Walkoffs? Hump the edges or get a character like Sheik who can relatively easily string someone off the edge. Big stage? Pick a fast character, do some minor damage and run around until the end of time. It's the reason why Halberd, easily the worst of the originally generally legal stages, was banned - some characters like Rosalina just got games way too freely on that stage due to the ridiculously low ceiling.

What a tournament setting wants is stages that allow people to play with a variety of strategies with all the characters, not be forced into playing certain characters or certain strategies because the stage picked has a way of winning that's just so much stronger than anything else.

EDIT: For the record, I think the legal stagelist of FD/Omegas, Battlefield, Smashville, T&C, Lylat, Castle Siege, Delfino, and Duck Hunt works well. Halberd was a really awkward stage that made for a lot of unfun and uninteresting situations in Smash 4. Here's hoping Umbra Clocktower will be a stage that works well as getting that magical number 9 is good.

 

[wizrad]

Why isn't anyone vouching for Wuhu anymore? ):

 

[Ulevo]

Wintropy Wouldn't you agree that even the most balanced of stages are also unbalanced to various characters and match-ups? Take Battlefield for example, as it's horrendously unbalanced in favor to Meta Knight against many characters due to the top platform and how low the ceiling is to the top platform. Meta Knight would also be at an advantage by staying under the platforms and applying pressure when the opponent just cannot retaliate as well. Lastly, he has his Up Throw, which kills almost insanely early thanks to the top platform; this also applies to Charizard's kill throw.

Larry, do everyone a favor and think before you type something from time to time.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Why isn't anyone vouching for Wuhu anymore? ):

We're gonna be running Wuhu as a legal stage in the coming weeks! I guess most people don't have much of a valid opinion over something that has seen very minuscule tourney play, so I'm hoping some uncertainty will be cleared upon its inclusion and seeing it played in tournament.

But yeah, best way to get a stage legal I found here anyway is to say its legal, let the people groan, and they will still attend the tournament regardless. People are all talk. They whine and whine over things that probably don't exist, yet still support said stage lists regardless.

 

[Masonomace]

Why isn't anyone vouching for Wuhu anymore? ):

There's a tournament out in Lawrence, Kansas. It's called Hype! Train 6 & it's taking place January 30th. Custom specials are allowed along with Wuhu Island being an optional Legal stage.

Personally I'd vouch for Wuhu because transformation stages are a fun archetype & my character plays decently well on any stage so. Basically yeah I'm down for it, & I'd choose it if I'm not going to choose PS2.

But yeah, best way to get a stage legal I found here anyway is to say its legal, let the people groan, and they will still attend the tournament regardless. People are all talk. They whine and whine over things that probably don't exist, yet still support said stage lists regardless.

One time a weekly took place in my scene & it allowed stages like Wuhu, PS2, etc.. However, many did gripe about these "jank" stages & claimed they would either not attend it, or attend it & not choose the stage. Honestly, that day I think I only saw PS2 chosen like, once or twice during the entire bracket. The point is, the stages became legal & didn't even get chosen, & yet still get banned because reasons. That's not good (for us).

 

[Xeze]

Saw some comments about Town & City, too, people wanting that stage banned left and right, and they seem very genuine about it.

Why are we encouraging stupidity? There is no reason or rhyme to what happens in the Smash 4 community, things go without a trace and people scream for bans by the dozen. Honestly really frustrating to see how horribly limited and restricted things have gotten by the widespread so quickly.

Just like I wrote a while ago, people are just cutting of stages and eventually we will end up with only BF/FD/Smashville. This tendency has to be stopped. I mean, Melee has 6 legal stages, 4 of them having similar layouts (BF, Yoshi's, FoD, DL64) and one of them being Stadium 1. I don't see anyone complaining.

If this goes on, I'm praying that Smash 4 never agrees on a universal ruleset.

 

[ぱみゅ]

On the other hand I've been running biweekles and this sunday I might be running an alternative stagelist.
1. Mushroomy Kingdom U
2. Mario Circuit (Wii U)
3. Skyloft
4. Norfair
5. Orbital Gate Assault
6. Kalos Pokémon League
7. Pokémon Stadium 2
8. Gamer
9. Windy Hill Zone

3, 4, and/or 9 might get replaced by Peach's Castle 64, Pirate Ship or Midgar, depending on the DLC available of the setups I get for the event.

 

[Masonomace]

Here's a set match that had Gamer AND Pokemon stadium 2 played on stream at my local:

Gamer game 1

PS2 game 2

I'm okay with either stage honestly.

 

[Xeze]

That match on Stadium 2 luckily got the best transformation (the ground one).

 

[ForteX]

I'm not going to read this entire thread because it's way too much back and forth bickering to be genuinely useful information - things like that make me sometimes appreciate the backroom, but I never actually will appreciate the concept.

First, Halberd. I've been screwed by it many a time, and that's fine. At the end of the day, if I really think about it, it's my own fault it happened. Nothing was random, it's all just a matter of learning every facet of the stage. I get that no one wants to go to a tournament and lose a round because they got toyed by a stage, but if you're not ready to deal with the advertised stage list, maybe you shouldn't go, or maybe you should exercise your bans. Even though I openly call Halberd ****, I stand beside its legality. That said, I will not mourn its loss if I go to a tournament where it is banned.

Next, Delfino. It's a cute stage that does have really low ceilings sometimes. I'm not going to lie, I've used that to my advantage, but I've also outplayed Rosalina and ZSS on that stage during those transitions and came out on top even though their ceiling kills get a dramatic buff. It's about knowing your character's limitations, what's safe for them, and knowing the stage.

Again, there's a reason the ruleset lets players ban stages, and since these two are the true most divisive stages I've ever seen, there's your set to ban. Surely your character won't do poorly on the much less questionable stages, right?

So then there's Duck Hunt. Easy to sum up: if you think this stage should be banned, you have brain damage. Is that too harsh? To quote Duck Hunt, "ruff".

Let's look at Battlefield, Final Destination, and Duck Hunt. We end up with virtually the same stage on the bottom - completely flat ground that doesn't move or turn, or have any bumps or dips in it. Let's go beyond Final Destination to Battlefield, which now has three floating transient platforms, all positioned safe distances from the blast zones. Duck hunt is almost the logical progression of Battlefield, but with ducks. Transient platforms that essentially accommodate one person at a time, spaced very strategically, including one questionable one that is near the ceiling. Then there's the dog, who is no more random than Randall: if you think he's random, you've never played the actual game Duck Hunt.

Even with as many platforms as there are to choose from, I can't fathom someone being able to circle camp even against a low mobility character. If you main a low mobility character and are worried about that, though, ban stages.

I haven't put enough time or energy into Pokemon Stadium 2 or Gamer to actually speak about them. I'm leery about Gamer because of its semi-random layout, and because 5-Volt is just too strong. Also I think there are certain layouts that present cave of life situations. I've never liked Pokemon Stadium 2, but I wouldn't argue too much if someone took me there. I really like the suggestion to go into 8 player Smash and play with three extra throwaways to get the stage to never transform, but I think that's a bit too involved.

My biggest gripes right now are:

1. We've been playing Smash 4 competitively for a year now. That's fantastic and I'm very happy to see it doing so well. As a result of that year, we've seen Delfino, Halberd, and Duck Hunt come up as stages at very big events, and while I've seen some shenanigans come about thanks to the low ceiling at Halberd and Delfino, I've seen for the most part reasonable gameplay on all three stages. I can't understand how complaints from the nobodies that turn up in threads like this are even entertained. When you've lost your shot at top 8 at MLG or Evo because you got trolled by Halberd, and you really think it was the stage's fault, come complain about it. Otherwise, keep playing on what has proven itself to work in a competitive environment and think about adding more to the list instead of trying to take away from it.

2. Building up on that last statement, the people I see in this community are far too focused on trying to tailor the game to be as safe as possible for them. I'm all for banning stages that are just outright unfair for one reason or another, but Duck Hunt, Delfino, and Halberd just aren't unfair. I'm trying to figure out what happened to Pirate Ship, wasn't it counterpick in Brawl? Nothing changed, it should have moved right into counterpick. What about N64 Peach's Castle? I played it recently and had a good time on it. The Bumper up top is so much tinier than it was in the actual N64 game, and really the stage felt a lot bigger. I'm willing to argue that a stage where off the top kills are limited is actually healthy for the metagame, when you consider just how many off the top kill options there are. It doesn't cripple those characters, it forces the players to think differently about how they play.

And hey, if we put those two into counterpick, we can safely go up to three stage bans and lose nothing.