Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[SaltyKracka]

If you want to be adaptable, you can go play on Delfino Plaza. The wind transformation is enough to make it bannable to some; the electric and ice transformations are just the nails in the coffin.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Doesn't help the majority of the transformations being ****, though.

Man, I've been enlightened by your knowledge and deep argumentation skills and will drop the stage ASAP.


Sarcasm aside, the stage has five transformations:
Neutral is amazing and will be out for about 60% of the time.
Ground is fantastic by any means
Electric is slow enough to be out-WALKED by anyone in the game
Ice now that we don't have the random tripping allows for new combos and spacing strategies
Flying without the grab-and-kill-at-stupid-percents factor (as I stated before, it's easy to avoid), allows for all kinds of new strategies as well.

 

[ArikadoSD]

Played a lot on PS2 recently.
It's incredibly easy not to get grabbed on the Flying stage, the wind even helps you to stay on the air and offstage so you don't get to be on the ground for too long.

It's incredibly easy to not get grabbed on /any/ stage so let's legalize all stages as an extension of that.

 

[Radical Larry]

Come on guys, he began his post with "if you ignore everything bad about these stages", he can only drop so many hints before even the thickest among us catch on.

Of the stages named I think Wuhu Island, Skyloft and Kongo Jungle are all pretty good and I'd be happy to attend events with them legal.

Sorry about the whole "if you ignore everything bad about these stages" thing. I meant it as a subjective comment in that if you just move aside the bad things and start to look for the good things to argue, you'd find that the stages aren't as bannable as they'd often seem. I didn't really mean that you should outright ignore every bad thing about the stage, but instead find arguments for the stages.

Man, I've been enlightened by your knowledge and deep argumentation skills and will drop the stage ASAP.


Sarcasm aside, the stage has five transformations:
Neutral is amazing and will be out for about 60% of the time.
Ground is fantastic by any means
Electric is slow enough to be out-WALKED by anyone in the game
Ice now that we don't have the random tripping allows for new combos and spacing strategies
Flying without the grab-and-kill-at-stupid-percents factor (as I stated before, it's easy to avoid), allows for all kinds of new strategies as well.

You can actually tell how much they balanced out Pokemon Stadium 2 since the last game. Now we also have to remember that with the whole grab-and-kill, there's also DI and air dodging that could help out on certain characters to keep them from being KO'd at dumb damages. That aside, it would be fun to see aerial battles on that portion of the stage, admittedly.

Of the stages I listed, here's what I think they should just all be in the end, once you see arguments in their favor:

Starter: Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, Wrecking Crew, Pilotwings and Wuhu Island
Counterpick: Mario Galaxy, Mushroom Kingdom U, Jungle Hijinx, Hyrule Castle and Windy Hill Zone

It sounds stupid that Mario Galaxy should be the first permanent walk-off stage to be outside of a bannable legality, but when you look at the argument for it, and if expanded upon, one can see how the stage is very different from your generic walk-off stage and how extremely hard it is to actually KO off the side blast lines on that particular stage compared to the others.

All of these stages would be beneficial to tournaments for viewership (people would want to see variety) and also beneficial to the metagame by introducing potential new stages that could help carve the metagame out much more.

 

[Yikarur]

All of these stages would be beneficial to tournaments for viewership (people would want to see variety) and also beneficial to the metagame by introducing potential new stages that could help carve the metagame out much more.

Are you even trying?
This list would destroy viewership because almost every stage is heavily abusable.

 

[Radical Larry]

Are you even trying?
This list would destroy viewership because almost every stage is heavily abusable.

Destroy viewership? I'll ask you this, who would want to see the same five to seven stages over and over and over again? If anything, that would slowly rid you of viewers. However, adding variety to up to almost 20 different stages will make it significantly better for viewership. It brings in interest, makes thing interesting and makes it more exciting to wonder who's going to actually win.

Also, I've argued that the stages aren't as heavily abusable as one thinks they are. You tell me how the stages I've listed can be abused, and you can't really use the "circle camp" or "unreachable camping spot" arguments for most of them, and you can't use the excuse of "hazards" on Mushroom Kingdom U since I can argue that they are easy to avoid or beat altogether.

These stages are not as chaotic as you would think, and since there would be a larger number, people's interest would be brought up, people will start coming in to watch because there's actually more variety right then. People's interest wouldn't wane, it'd rise, all because they wonder what new tactics can be made in this, what new strategies can be formed, what new anything can happen thanks to these stages. Because over time, viewership will go down and down and down because everything is going to get stale after a while, so adding more stages would just add more variety to the game and lead into increased viewership, interest and performance.

 

[Xeze]

Instead of trying to find reasons to make stages like Mushroom Kingdom U and Stadium 2 legal, we should discuss reasons to keep Duck Hunt and DL64 legal. Dismantle 2, a tournament that happened yesterday featuring Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, etc., had DL64 not legal. And I've seen some comments from top players saying that Duck Hunt should be removed eventually.

 

[ぱみゅ]

If top players said it, it will eventually happen.
That's why I dislike this community sometimes.

 

[Shouxiao]

If stuff like this is possible in Smash 4 then I understand why Kongo Jungle would be banned for singles.

I do think this stage can be a counterpick for doubles.

Duck Hunt should stay a counterpick stage. No reason to ban.

Jungle Hijinx has a circle camp potential and when one is in the 2nd part of the stage the camera sucks.

Pokemon Stadium 2. Transformations are bad. It should be banned. Stage was not as bad with Brawl mechanics though.

 

[Radical Larry]

Instead of trying to find reasons to make stages like Mushroom Kingdom U and Stadium 2 legal, we should discuss reasons to keep Duck Hunt and DL64 legal. Dismantle 2, a tournament that happened yesterday featuring Nairo, Ally, Dabuz, etc., had DL64 not legal. And I've seen some comments from top players saying that Duck Hunt should be removed eventually.

Well think of this, Duck Hunt has a blast zone that is literally point blank closer than any of Wrecking Crew's height. You could literally read an aerial attack on Duck Hunt, grab with Link's Clawshot, U-Tilt and U-Smash and your opponent will be done for. Also, THAT stage has legitimate circle camping.

If stuff like this is possible in Smash 4 then I understand why Kongo Jungle would be banned for singles.

I do think this stage can be a counterpick for doubles.

Duck Hunt should stay a counterpick stage. No reason to ban.

Jungle Hijinx has a circle camp potential and when one is in the 2nd part of the stage the camera sucks.

Pokemon Stadium 2. Transformations are bad. It should be banned. Stage was not as bad with Brawl mechanics though.

Except in Smash 4, Kongo Jungle doesn't have that, and Ganondorf has far higher jumps than he had back in Melee, and Peach has a lower second jump, so the thought that Ganondorf can't be able to reach Peach or any other opponent is out of the window. Like seriously, Smash 4 is NOT Melee.

Duck Hunt should be banned because of its legitimate circle camping and the ability to KO from zero to death with many characters on the top of the stage.

Jungle Hijinx having circle camp potential? I'll believe that when the pillars stop coming altogether.

Hah, even though it's proven that the transformations aren't even remotely bad? There's nothing bad about the stage except for the Sky transformation, and all you got to do is just avoid an opponent's attacks.

If top players said it, it will eventually happen.
That's why I dislike this community sometimes.

Well what do you expect? People treat "top players" as celebrities and treat their word about characters and stages as fact that can't be challenged. If I was a top player and said that the stage choice was bad, people would believe me and if I said certain stages should be tournament legal, people would believe me when I show the evidence.

Sometimes people need to think outside the box and try finding reasons why to unban it and refute the "evidence" that it should be banned. Like what I'm trying to do.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Yeah, listening to the admittedly horrible commentary last night, I heard a lot of people on the mic refer to Duck Hunt as wonky and dumb (though the top players use of the ducks had very clever usage) and was listening to a lot of their firm beliefs that Dreamland should be universally banned...

I think I said this a few pages ago, but this is the scary thing about the Smash community; things are dropped like flies for reasons that don't make sense, and then they stay banned. We are inevitably looking at a future where five stages are going to become the next norm...for no reason other than because.

I, for one, will not allow this. I can only cater to people for so long because things are reduced to oblivion. I was fine with and agreed to getting rid of Delfino, Castle, and Halberd then, but only for reasons we have discussed and argued over in great length, both in here and with attendees here. There were legitimate things argued over in length, so we had made a decision I think was wise moving forward. But Duck Hunt and Dreamland...naw fam, I don't see the big deal here.

Most people's beef with Duck Hunt on the mic seemed to have been over things that wasn't even a big deal at all. Maybe someone anti Duck Hunt could shed some light on what I'm missing here, but otherwise the stage is fine, even though for one of my characters anyway, I absolutely personally detest the stage.

But yeah, super mixed and uneasy feelings about stages lately. Even Town & City has been getting a lot of heat. Not looking good.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If stuff like this is possible in Smash 4 then I understand why Kongo Jungle would be banned for singles.

I do think this stage can be a counterpick for doubles.

Duck Hunt should stay a counterpick stage. No reason to ban.

Jungle Hijinx has a circle camp potential and when one is in the 2nd part of the stage the camera sucks.

Pokemon Stadium 2. Transformations are bad. It should be banned. Stage was not as bad with Brawl mechanics though.

I'm pretty sure this isn't possible in 4, generally speaking, unless you're Little Mac because lol Little Mac. Ganondorf and Dr. Mario would also probably dislike the stage but it's not quite as gamebreaking for them because their aerials are actually threatening. Peach's float also doesn't last as long in 4 (I think), so there's that too.

 

[Yikarur]

I've time-outed several characters on that stage in several match-up Everytime this stage is legal I abuse it heavily. I'm the reason france has dropped the stage 8)

Radical Larry your infos about duck hunt are plain wrong and if you don't see where jungle hijinx is circle camping while you point at duck hunt with circle camping arguments then you're just a troll and should not be taken seriously anymore.

 

[Xeze]

Next thing we know we are all playing like the japanese with only 3 stages. I REALLY hope that day doesn't happen.

 

[Radical Larry]

I'm pretty sure this isn't possible in 4, generally speaking, unless you're Little Mac because lol Little Mac. Ganondorf and Dr. Mario would also probably dislike the stage but it's not quite as gamebreaking for them because their aerials are actually threatening. Peach's float also doesn't last as long in 4 (I think), so there's that too.

Little Mac and Doctor Mario are the only characters who would have a legitimately tough time against opponents on this stage. Not necessarily Ganondorf because he can reach opponents. Also, Peach's jumping ability has been nerfed from Melee all the way to this game, so it will be really easy for opponents to reach her.

Yeah, listening to the admittedly horrible commentary last night, I heard a lot of people on the mic refer to Duck Hunt as wonky and dumb (though the top players use of the ducks had very clever usage) and was listening to a lot of their firm beliefs that Dreamland should be universally banned...

I think I said this a few pages ago, but this is the scary thing about the Smash community; things are dropped like flies for reasons that don't make sense, and then they stay banned. We are inevitably looking at a future where five stages are going to become the next norm...for no reason other than because.

I, for one, will not allow this. I can only cater to people for so long because things are reduced to oblivion. I was fine with and agreed to getting rid of Delfino, Castle, and Halberd then, but only for reasons we have discussed and argued over in great length, both in here and with attendees here. There were legitimate things argued over in length, so we had made a decision I think was wise moving forward. But Duck Hunt and Dreamland...naw fam, I don't see the big deal here.

Most people's beef with Duck Hunt on the mic seemed to have been over things that wasn't even a big deal at all. Maybe someone anti Duck Hunt could shed some light on what I'm missing here, but otherwise the stage is fine, even though for one of my characters anyway, I absolutely personally detest the stage.

But yeah, super mixed and uneasy feelings about stages lately. Even Town & City has been getting a lot of heat. Not looking good.

Maybe if people hosted tournaments with the legitimate ruleset and an Expanded Stage List, and they work out successfully, there would be a rise in usage of various stages. I, for sure, will make sure to use my own Expanded Stage List in matches against others and in any tournaments I host, because it's unfair to really keep these stages permanently banned.

The arguments against the stage can be refuted with facts that are for the stage, but people often choose to ignore the "for the stage" facts and go with the "against the stage" facts that just aren't facts or just apply to all of the stages. People want to listen for ONE small reason against a stage when there could be TEN reasons why the stage should be legal. And sad thing is, that ONE reason is enough to ban the stage.

People will claim the statements "for the stage" as false and become hypocrites by making false claims "against the stage" whereas there would be enough evidence to support the stage being legal. It's a horrible, true thing.

 

[Routa]

Pokemon Stadium 2. Transformations are bad. It should be banned. Stage was not as bad with Brawl mechanics though.

I would like to hear why the transformations are bad.

Also I find it funny that people are starting to remove Duck Hunt and DL64 from the stage lists and still keep Smashville. It is Melee all over again, eh? Keep the one stage that favours top tier characters (In Melee PS1 favours Fox and Falco and in Sm4sh Smashville favours Sheik) and throw away other stages (Brinstar in Melee. Yeah it was removed 'cause it favoured Jiggly and Ganondorf... Go figure...).

 

[deepseadiva]

I wanted to bring up a proposal, and I might make a thread about this as well but I'd like some feedback from you Stage Groupies.

Smash stages right now come in several duplicate forms: Final Destination and Omegas, Battlefield and Dream Land, Delfino and Castle Siege. These pairs have important differences but also conform to basic "archetypes". Flat, 3 platforms, transforming, etc.

I wonder if at this point in the game it might be beneficial to focus on simplifying the stage list and focus on including one of each archetype, instead of trying to decide which stages are "most neutral" (impossible, and filled with character bias) or trying to expand the stage list to include as many "usable" stages as possible (unpopular, clunky). If we can identify what makes stages special, we can loosely categorize them and create a stagelist that is diverse in playable terms, and not just diverse based on quantity.

For example we could categorize them like this:

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms, Smashville, Town and City
Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Miiverse, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

In theory, we could have a diverse enough 3-stage-list by just choosing one from each category. Or two stages from each. Maybe even more radical of an idea: rotating the stages every single tournament...

Categorizing won't be an exact science, but there's no doubt the result of this kind of list would be both diverse and simple, a middle ground rarely seen in Smash. Again, just a proposal. Thoughts?

 

[aεrgiα]

Next thing we know we are all playing like the japanese with only 3 stages. I REALLY hope that day doesn't happen.

while i agree with your point in that it would be horrible, i just want to point out that last i checked japan played with 5 stages, omega gaur plains FD, battlefield, lylat, smashville and T&C...

i just wish sakurai would give us all 3ds stages on wii u and vice versa (actually i only really care about prism tower as i love that stage, but id gladly take yoshis island and arena ferox too, would help with having a more diverse stage list)

also i think peach castle should at least get a chance, from what ive played on the stage the bumper isnt much of an issue, and neither is the moving platform below the stage, the only potential problem i see with this stage are the two slopes/triangles/*insert name here*, since they can "randomly" save someone, although they cant be camped like caves of life can...

also

Well think of this, Duck Hunt has a blast zone that is literally point blank closer than any of Wrecking Crew's height. You could literally read an aerial attack on Duck Hunt, grab with Link's Clawshot, U-Tilt and U-Smash and your opponent will be done for. Also, THAT stage has legitimate circle camping.



Except in Smash 4, Kongo Jungle doesn't have that, and Ganondorf has far higher jumps than he had back in Melee, and Peach has a lower second jump, so the thought that Ganondorf can't be able to reach Peach or any other opponent is out of the window. Like seriously, Smash 4 is NOT Melee.

Duck Hunt should be banned because of its legitimate circle camping and the ability to KO from zero to death with many characters on the top of the stage.

Jungle Hijinx having circle camp potential? I'll believe that when the pillars stop coming altogether.

Hah, even though it's proven that the transformations aren't even remotely bad? There's nothing bad about the stage except for the Sky transformation, and all you got to do is just avoid an opponent's attacks.



Well what do you expect? People treat "top players" as celebrities and treat their word about characters and stages as fact that can't be challenged. If I was a top player and said that the stage choice was bad, people would believe me and if I said certain stages should be tournament legal, people would believe me when I show the evidence.

Sometimes people need to think outside the box and try finding reasons why to unban it and refute the "evidence" that it should be banned. Like what I'm trying to do.

how can you support/advocate all those stages and then try to justify banning duck hunt?!? thats like saying i didnt like brawl dedede chain grabs, but ice climbers were fine...

 

[Radical Larry]

Because for one, I test these stages out with other people, often whom have equal or greater experience in the game than I do.
Duck Hunt is the type of stage where Zero-To-Death is extremely high chance when you can exploit the top of the left tree. I tested out Wrecking Crew recently with another person, they didn't circle camp me once and they played Diddy, and I was Link.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

Because for one, I test these stages out with other people, often whom have equal or greater experience in the game than I do.
Duck Hunt is the type of stage where Zero-To-Death is extremely high chance when you can exploit the top of the left tree. I tested out Wrecking Crew recently with another person, they didn't circle camp me once and they played Diddy, and I was Link.

Oh, gee, you tested it once, probably without explicitly checking for circle camping. Tell your opponent to try and run you to time, or better yet, take a character with good mobility and try to circle camp other players. Sometimes, all it takes is awareness of a strategy for it to become abusable.

Sol's Little Mac on Duck Hunt is probably the closest thing I've seen to camping on that stage, and Sol, with his incredible awareness, was able to work out a solution (btw, he landed a KO PUNCH that didn't kill off the top, hang the percentages). I don't think the tree is as much of a problem as you make it out to be.

 

[Masonomace]

The only concrete reason I can think of Duck Hunt being a degenerate stage worthy of being banned is for stalling / camp time outs, like what I did at a local tournament yesterday against a Sheik with my Shulk. I'm proud of that too.

Other than that, there's nothing wrong with that stage in my opinion. I really would not like to see stages like Mario Galaxy allowed while Duck Hunt gets banned. .

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wanted to bring up a proposal, and I might make a thread about this as well but I'd like some feedback from you Stage Groupies.

Smash stages right now come in several duplicate forms: Final Destination and Omegas, Battlefield and Dream Land, Delfino and Castle Siege. These pairs have important differences but also conform to basic "archetypes". Flat, 3 platforms, transforming, etc.

I wonder if at this point in the game it might be beneficial to focus on simplifying the stage list and focus on including one of each archetype, instead of trying to decide which stages are "most neutral" (impossible, and filled with character bias) or trying to expand the stage list to include as many "usable" stages as possible (unpopular, clunky). If we can identify what makes stages special, we can loosely categorize them and create a stagelist that is diverse in playable terms, and not just diverse based on quantity.

For example we could categorize them like this:

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms, Smashville, Town and City
Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Miiverse, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

In theory, we could have a diverse enough 3-stage-list by just choosing one from each category. Or two stages from each. Maybe even more radical of an idea: rotating the stages every single tournament...

Categorizing won't be an exact science, but there's no doubt the result of this kind of list would be both diverse and simple, a middle ground rarely seen in Smash. Again, just a proposal. Thoughts?

Since everyone else seems to have ignored this post I'll say that I like the idea. Getting people to agree and go along with it will be the hard part (isn't it always...) but I think it has merit.

 

[Radical Larry]

I wanted to bring up a proposal, and I might make a thread about this as well but I'd like some feedback from you Stage Groupies.

Smash stages right now come in several duplicate forms: Final Destination and Omegas, Battlefield and Dream Land, Delfino and Castle Siege. These pairs have important differences but also conform to basic "archetypes". Flat, 3 platforms, transforming, etc.

I wonder if at this point in the game it might be beneficial to focus on simplifying the stage list and focus on including one of each archetype, instead of trying to decide which stages are "most neutral" (impossible, and filled with character bias) or trying to expand the stage list to include as many "usable" stages as possible (unpopular, clunky). If we can identify what makes stages special, we can loosely categorize them and create a stagelist that is diverse in playable terms, and not just diverse based on quantity.

For example we could categorize them like this:

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms, Smashville, Town and City
Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Miiverse, Lylat Cruise, Duck Hunt
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

In theory, we could have a diverse enough 3-stage-list by just choosing one from each category. Or two stages from each. Maybe even more radical of an idea: rotating the stages every single tournament...

Categorizing won't be an exact science, but there's no doubt the result of this kind of list would be both diverse and simple, a middle ground rarely seen in Smash. Again, just a proposal. Thoughts?

Well there'd be 11 (all Omegas not included) stages total, which would be relatively diverse. However, while I do agree that this is an amazing concept, there could be additional stages to be put into these categories, which would be of the following, which I'm hoping is agreeable to this as well. This will also include the stages already listed, which will be regular, but boldened stages are what I'd like to see added. Also, Town and City, as well as Smashville, need to be moved to different categories due to not being flat, as well as an additional categorization, Tri-Platform Stages.

Flat: Final Destination, Omega Forms
Platform: Smashville, Town and City, Duck Hunt, Pilotwings, Kongo Jungle 64
Tri-Platform: Battlefield, Dreamland 64, Lylat Cruise, Miiverse
Transforming: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Castle Siege, Wuhu Island

All of these stages would be relatively balanced and could be agreed to be very good stages. I agree with your categorization idea, but I thought there could be an expanded stage listing for it, since it seems to have potential with decent and rather balanced stages.

==========================================================================

Onto other pressing matters, we should talk about Pilotwings.

I've seen someone say Pilotwings can have "circle camping" when the stage is actually impossible to circle camp in regardless of what you may think; secondly, the stage is said to be a prime camping stage, but if it tilts, camping is going to be extremely hard to do.

 

[Yikarur]

You can stand on the Gear on the yellow plane which makes you unreachable.
You can camp on the lower plattforms of the red ppane because approaching you is nearly impossible because this is an extremely advantagous position.
So please stop talking about Pilot Wings. The stage is unplayable in competitive play.

 

[Radical Larry]

You can stand on the Gear on the yellow plane which makes you unreachable.
You can camp on the lower plattforms of the red ppane because approaching you is nearly impossible because this is an extremely advantagous position.
So please stop talking about Pilot Wings. The stage is unplayable in competitive play.

Ooh, yeah, a place where you can basically have a chance of getting stage spiked on and a place where your opponent can drive you out when going around on the sides and making you jump out. Yeah, that's totally unplayable. It doesn't at all create those two new strategies. Additionally, there's the chance that you'll fail to get to the gear on the yellow plane, which can result in your KO. There's also the fact that the stage transitions so that there's hardly a chance you will actually be able to stay there efficiently.

There are certain characters who will be completely unable to get to the gear anyways, and there are certain characters who can't effectively camp on the lower platforms, and will actually be punished.

The stage is not unplayable by any means.

 

[Loota]

Larry, potential stage spikes are totally irrelevant when your opponent is unable to reach you standing on the engine at all in both theory and practice. And what do you guess your opponent is going to do after you've driven him out from the lower platforms by going in from the side? Yeah, you're driving him out from the same position until the time runs out while gaining pretty much nothing. The metagame will simpy devolve into who will score the first hit and run away for the rest of the game with minimal interaction.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Dunno if we're still talking PS2 at all, it's a lot of fun and mostly fine but there's only one transformation I worry about, and it's electric. Not for conventional reasons though....

When both players are on-stage, electric is great, but when it comes to ledge options I find it very limiting as it instantly pushes you back to the ledge when you do neutral get-up (it's either instantly or so fast that you may as well select another option). It's a minor annoyance but I don't like how it omits one ledge option (at least, it did when I last tested. I'll give it a whirl again when I get home.)

That's the only legitimate hitch I can see with it, it seems...MOSTLY fine.

 

[Radical Larry]

Larry, potential stage spikes are totally irrelevant when your opponent is unable to reach you standing on the engine at all in both theory and practice. And what do you guess your opponent is going to do after you've driven him out from the lower platforms by going in from the side? Yeah, you're driving him out from the same position until the time runs out while gaining pretty much nothing. The metagame will simpy devolve into who will score the first hit and run away for the rest of the game with minimal interaction.

See, that's the thing wrong with people. People will be pessimistic about a stage's viability just because of this. There can be characters who are able to absolutely demolish the chance to camp at the engine, there are characters who can't camp at the engine at all. If you drive your opponent out of the area on the red plane, you could chase them around. If you tap down when on a soft platform, it's just like Battlefield in which you make sure your attack comes out before the "camper's" comes out first.

Dunno if we're still talking PS2 at all, it's a lot of fun and mostly fine but there's only one transformation I worry about, and it's electric. Not for conventional reasons though....

When both players are on-stage, electric is great, but when it comes to ledge options I find it very limiting as it instantly pushes you back to the ledge when you do neutral get-up (it's either instantly or so fast that you may as well select another option). It's a minor annoyance but I don't like how it omits one ledge option (at least, it did when I last tested. I'll give it a whirl again when I get home.)

That's the only legitimate hitch I can see with it, it seems...MOSTLY fine.

Well PS2 still has some things wrong with it, but it's only very minor. I'll give the stage itself a whirl myself when I get home, see how it will mostly work and how easy or hard it is to KO your opponent at various points of the stage.

 

[Loota]

See, that's the thing wrong with people. People will be pessimistic about a stage's viability just because of this. There can be characters who are able to absolutely demolish the chance to camp at the engine, there are characters who can't camp at the engine at all. If you drive your opponent out of the area on the red plane, you could chase them around. If you tap down when on a soft platform, it's just like Battlefield in which you make sure your attack comes out before the "camper's" comes out first.

And the people are rightly acting so. It doesn't matter if there's 55 characters that can't abuse the infinite circle camping strategy, it only takes one capable character to destroy the stage's viability (see Dedede in Brawl). If there is any chance to end up on said stage, you'll be sure to see everyone abusing it to no end since it's a flawless strategy. No amount of projectiles will be able to force the camper away from the engine until you commit yourself to the chase and that's when the camper is already well on his way to the other engine. I doubt you'd actually like to watch tournament sets going there with one player avoiding all interaction for the rest of the match the instant he gets a lead. If there ever was any matchups where it could somehow prove to be a viable pick, it does not matter in the least.

The red plane doesn't have any strictly unbeatable strategies but it still gives a massive and effortless advantage to the one ahead in percentages or stocks. Yes, it is possible to approach the opponent but it requires constant, massive commitments while your opponent only has to make nontrivially easy moves to gain shamelessly good advantage. You don't chase your opponent around after somehow forcing him out of the advantaged spot, he just resets on the other side again and you'll have to force him out again, and again, and again. And then the yellow plane decides to show up to make things even worse. This is unacceptable at competitive level.

PS2 is fine.

 

[Masonomace]

Pilotwings? Oh man. . . the Yellow plane transition definitely killed it for me. I play Shulk after all, & if I have the ability to scrooge / shark with Up air, I will do it to you in a tournament match to win. That said, I don't think we want to have me or any Shulk player that knows this (a lot of Shulk players are aware that they can easily cheese on this stage) doing this to players who have no hope of catching Jump Shulk going under the stage to land on an engine & use our Utilt from below. I don't recall about a character who has a disjointed hitbox like Shulk, but Shulk Utilt is way too good when you have the Advantage state. Circle camping is a breeze & that shouldn't be normal yet it is for some characters. And to me, that's no good.

Adventures of has spoken.

PS2 though. That stage, I want discussion for this stage. Wuhu too. And deepseadiva's post is interesting that I'd discuss that too.

 

[Radical Larry]

Fine, you've convinced me on ONE particular stage. But what if they fix the issue of the second plane by removing the ability to get onto the engine and make the platform from semi-soft to hard? That would heavily discourage that kind of camping as a whole. Heck, maybe if we wanted to fix the stage, how about making the bottom part of the red plane longer on both sides? That way camping can be inefficient and quite ineffective.

I'm going to test some of the other stages out that I deem worthy of being Legal or Counterpick stages. I'm going to explore Mario Galaxy and see how far or close the blast zones can be to the stage. If ridiculously far, then the stage can have some viability going for it even if it's a walk-off. If somewhat to rather close, then I'll retcon my post for its viability as well as Pilotwings.

 

[Tinkerer]

I'm going to test some of the other stages out that I deem worthy of being Legal or Counterpick stages.

Ignoring all the fairly out-there suggestions on the rest of this page, why exactly do you think people across a global competitive community did not do this already (even in this very thread having Yikarur properly testing out these at their local scene and showing them broken)? There's something incredibly patronizing about saying that everyone else got it wrong and only you can see the true potential of these stages so rudely ignored by the Smash community. That's not how it works, you don't just theorycraft to what should be legal or not, you test it out and present it to your scene.

Smash isn't some kind of solo effort with rules created by posts on forums, it's a community where consensus counts above anything else.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, answer me this. Why is Mario Circuit 8 banned?

I can see people arguing about the "cave of life" and hazards situation, but let me give a run down on this stage. One part, one part of this stage is unable to utilize top blast zones and could be considered a "cave of life", but a cave of life is where you are unable to KO mostly anywhere, which doesn't apply to the one part of the stage. In fact, you can still get horizontal and lower blast zone kills and that part of the stage doesn't last that long anyways.

Moving on to hazards, just like the "cave of life", the area where the top blast zone is blocked is also a heavy hazard, but it is quick to go away as well and can be teched. It's a meteor smashing portion of the stage that can be easily teched either way instead of letting yourself fall heavy victim to it. Secondly, the Shy Guys on the portion of the stage where the white bridge is don't deal much damage (I tested 8% on the sideways road and 12% on the upside down road), so they aren't as much of a threat as the road itself.

The stage itself is a transitional stage that has a couple walk offs, but often the rest are balanced parts of the stage that have no bad effect to characters. The main platform of the stage also does NOT transform when it comes back, unlike Delfino and Skyloft which do. So in these arguments, wouldn't the stage be balanced?

There's no argument for "circle camping", as it doesn't exist on the stage, and it can't. There's inability to efficiently camp, even on the walk-off portions of the stage because you have to get back on. The hazards are easily predictable and/or avoidable altogether unless thrown into.

So why is that transitional stage banned? For a very temporary ceiling KO block? For hazards that are easily avoidable? What is there to that stage that would make it banned? For a meteor smash that can just be teched out of? If you look at it truly, there's nothing wrong aside from avoidable hazards and one insignificant ceiling KO blocker.

I know I can't dictate rules, but I'm trying to at least argue for some stages that can be unfairly treated as banned. Sometimes these stages are preemptively and prematurely banned and need arguments going for them.

 

[Yikarur]

I've noticed that a lot of american rulesets are dropping Castle Siege and Delfino.
Why?!
Both stages have been perfectly fine since brawl. We need to stop this trend asap. This game is not as much fun if they take every perfectly legal stage away.

 

[Radical Larry]

I've noticed that a lot of american rulesets are dropping Castle Siege and Delfino.
Why?!
Both stages have been perfectly fine since brawl. We need to stop this trend asap. This game is not as much fun if they take every perfectly legal stage away.

Well I agree on that. The American ruleset wants to do a "Five Stage Rule" instead of just a good option for stages in the game. They pretty much want Battlefield, FD, Lylat, Smashville and T & C to be the only tournament legal stages, where that is completely unfair.

We have stages like Miiverse, Dreamland 64, Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Skyloft, Mario Circuit (Smash 4), Kongo Jungle 64, Wuhu Island and Pokemon Stadium 2 that are actually very balanced in their own individual way. But people want to restrict the amount of stages down to five and these stages are all "no-no" stages.

While I don't condone Delfino Plaza being the ONLY stage of its kind to be legal, I don't think it should necessarily be banned either. If anything, we in America are literally going reverse of what we should be doing in the tournament ruleset for stages in Smash 4. I want to bring up light on certain stages that could have great balance to them and have potential in tournaments so that maybe people could read it and possibly agree that we definitely DO need more stages in the tournament scene.

I honestly don't want to end up seeing only 3 to 5 tournament legal stages in American tournaments in the future; that is only a very negative consequence waiting to happen altogether, am I right?

 

[aεrgiα]

Ignoring all the fairly out-there suggestions on the rest of this page, why exactly do you think people across a global competitive community did not do this already (even in this very thread having Yikarur properly testing out these at their local scene and showing them broken)? There's something incredibly patronizing about saying that everyone else got it wrong and only you can see the true potential of these stages so rudely ignored by the Smash community. That's not how it works, you don't just theorycraft to what should be legal or not, you test it out and present it to your scene.

Smash isn't some kind of solo effort with rules created by posts on forums, it's a community where consensus counts above anything else.

while i agree to a certain extent, i just want to point out that not everything has been tested and given a fair chance, at least not in this game, too many things just get labeled as "jank" and then ignored by a large part of the community, you need not look further than miis for an example(not trying to start an argument about them here, just saying, where they given a fair chance? or 3 stocks vs 2 stock, although that didnt get labeled as jank for once ), i mean while i definitely dont agree with all(or even most) of the stages larry is suggesting, discussing these things is what this threads for right? and i think its not fair to say he thinks the only one who can see the true potential of stages is him, i for one definitely see the possibility that certain stages slipped under the radar because they were preemtively labeled as jank by a large part of the community.(imo skyloft for eg.) could he be wrong? definitely and most likely too, but i think its better to argue for a stage and be wrong(ofc only as long as you admit to being wrong ) than to just outright ignore it

 

[Radical Larry]

Look, I'll be honest, I can see a lot of potential in the stages, but I never said I was the ONLY one who can see the potential of them. I'm just trying to start up arguments in the favor of the stages by providing my own testing, running facts and known attributes to the stage. I don't ignore what has a stage banned, but I try to argue it at least.

while i agree to a certain extent, i just want to point out that not everything has been tested and given a fair chance, at least not in this game, too many things just get labeled as "jank" and then ignored by a large part of the community, you need not look further than miis for an example(not trying to start an argument about them here, just saying, where they given a fair chance? or 3 stocks vs 2 stock, although that didnt get labeled as jank for once ), i mean while i definitely dont agree with all(or even most) of the stages larry is suggesting, discussing these things is what this threads for right? and i think its not fair to say he thinks the only one who can see the true potential of stages is him, i for one definitely see the possibility that certain stages slipped under the radar because they were preemtively labeled as jank by a large part of the community.(imo skyloft for eg.) could he be wrong? definitely and most likely too, but i think its better to argue for a stage and be wrong(ofc only as long as you admit to being wrong ) than to just outright ignore it

I mean, I agree that some of my knowledge is flawed, I'm not perfect you know. But that's when I do some extended tests and see how my arguments may fare against the counterarguments that are "against the stage". Sometimes, maybe a lot of times I'll get things wrong, but I'll do my own tests to see what went wrong or see if my arguments can stack up against the counterarguments and the reasons why stages are banned.

I'm not the only one to see the true potential of stages, but I can see potential of them. Stages like Mario Circuit and Skyloft are banned for being the same as Delfino Plaza, with Mario Circuit only having two predictable hazards that can easily just be avoided at all costs. A stage like Pokemon Stadium is banned because people complain about the Fly portion of the stage, but I don't see how one can actually have Zero-to-Deaths with characters; I've tried performing it and opponents fly too high or too far for it to happen, or I just can't reach them. Mario Galaxy is banned despite having low diagonal blast zones (thus not making it a true walk-off) and a very wide horizontal blast zone that one can easily survive past 80% with proper DI.

All I'm trying to do is argue why a stage shouldn't be banned. I'm flawed and maybe my arguments will be wrong from time to time (Pilotwings for example), but I try my best to present at least some facts in argument for the stages. I also have to have my own opinions along with the facts, but sometimes I mess up and I admit it, I can be wrong, I'm wrong about things with characters AND stages at times, and I admit it.

But I try not to be.

 

[Yikarur]

I just saw this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXvSSAYUkAEBrwG.jpg

WHAT THE ****?!
USA goes ******?

I've heard it in the stream that people are talking about this list but this list is so terrible....

 

[Xeze]

I just saw this:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CXvSSAYUkAEBrwG.jpg

WHAT THE ****?!
USA goes ******?

I've heard it in the stream that people are talking about this list but this list is so terrible....

Larry Lurr replied to this image on twitter saying they should remove Duck Hunt too. That's why I've been saying we should try to keep stages like DH and DL64 legal instead of trying to give reasons to legalize stages like Stadium 2 or Mario Circuit or whatever. Priorities people!

 

[Radical Larry]

Look, I was going to make a post about this sooner or later, but I want to just say something about the American Stage Ruleset that is going down. It's utterly the most prematurely terrifying list I've seen, and it's not really going to make people want to watch the game since it's going to be only 5 stages. It's...you know what...?

The post I want to regard is this. It's a countermeasure to stop the stage list from going to the point of extremely abysmally low. I was going to do a lot more development for the argument, but it's either now or never that I just post it. I want to come up with the official "Smash 4 Extended Stage Minimum", which is meant to set the minimum requirement for tournament viable stages to double what we currently have, and to not ban these stages whatsoever. The minimum of the tournament viable stages is 12, which can be 6 tournament Legal and 6 tournament counterpick stages.

This countermeasure is meant to affect the United Stages Smash 4 scene so in that the stage list doesn't become abysmal in terms of size and quality. This also would bring back stages that were considered tournament viable but then banned for the most tedious and inane of reasons. This would also bring up discussion of which stages could be considered tournament legal for the United States Smash 4 community as a whole, and that no single person should have precedence over another in determining a stage, so that it is a community-based voting instead of having someone such as Larry Lurr or ZeRo have high priority in what they say about stages.

Intended consequences would be the result of a higher stage list, improved balance of the tournament scene, the complete recovery of the amount of counterpick stages, discussion on which banned stage can become revived as a viable stage and more intended positive consequences. However, if anyone may give a negative consequence in response, please tell me.

Stages I believe should follow this rule in an example should be the following [and please remember, this is an EXAMPLE]:

Tournament Legal: Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Lylat Cruise, Town and City, Wuhu Island, Dreamland 64
Tournament Counterpick: Miiverse, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, Duck Hunt, Kongo Jungle 64

Now this may be a total of fourteen stages, but there is no maximum amount of stages within this, as it's only an extended minimum. This is intended to allow more stages within the tournament scene instead of a complete and utter decrease and loss of counterpick stages. What I think is happening is inane and in the utmost abysmal and horrendous outcome, but what I propose should become a countermeasure to at least spark interest in and bring up the revival of a larger and hopefully superior listing of stages.

I don't expect any agreement on this, it's not polished, but it's something that would disallow such an abysmal stage list from occurring. Look...I'm not someone who's good at discussing stuff, but at least I don't want the stage list to dwindle and become condensed like it's currently shaping up to be. I'm sure many other people would say the same, that the stage list is getting worse and worse.

Yes Xeze we do need to focus upon stages like Duck Hunt and Dreamland to ensure that they do not become banned from tournaments, but we also need to put a high priority in setting a minimum stage list count and stopping just a select vocal minority from turning the stage list into something abysmal. Yikarur is right, the stage list is terrible, and I may not be someone who is perfect, and I have mistakes, but hell, I don't want the stage list to dwindle down into such a low amount.

I mean...my countermeasure may not be perfect, but at the least it's reasonable to have at least 12 tournament viable stages in the United States competitive scene.