Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[ParanoidDrone]

Quick notes on other stages. A lot of my friends really hate Lylat, and I can definitely see why, but my personal opinion is that's its good enough to be kept legal, or even be made neutral. I don't feel too strongly about that one way or the other, though. I have the same opinion on Duck Hunt; the platforms, ducks, and the dog are all kind of silly, as is the camera being weirdly zoomed out, but it's probably good enough to keep around. I think my own dream ruleset would be keeping just these two stages along with the obvious five, and having all seven of them as being "neutral stages".

And thus you see the problem: not everyone has the same standards for stages. Remember how you were confused about how people can defend the trash stages? You're on the opposite side of that with regards to Lylat, it seems.

 

[Krubby]

So I kinda made an account just to comment on this one subject, but I REALLY think something should be done about how Dreamland and Battlefield are considered. I know the stages have differences but they tend to affect characters the same way. As a Dedede main, it really sucks on SmashLadder clicking ban on Battlefield after winning because it's practically an autolose only to have to go to a stage that still handicaps me in the same way, as I can't do my fastfall approaches. I've heard similar complaints from Sonic and Toon Link mains who have a similar problem. I don't wanna be forceful and say one needs to be banned or they need to be grouped together or whatever, I just feel it makes the ability to ban a stage before your opponent's counterpick worthless when either way you're going to a stage with the same format that is incredibly detrimental to you.

 

[Pazx]

The number of people defending the trash stages in this game is disgusting. It's also amazing how the average player of every group I've seen agrees with me about all these stages being bad, and yet there's a few people defending them that keeps them around, forcing players to ban them rather than a stage for actual counterpick-related reasoning. Some notes:

Delfino: The base platform being non-solid, allowing some characters to attack from below, is the one merit to this stage. Beyond that, it's got janky blastzones that often result in people dying well before they should, and the majority of the transformations are just too detrimental to gameplay. While camping the walk-offs is a given, some of the other transformations are just as bad for being campable. Don't even get me started on the transformation with the three pillars out in the water. I have to assume that people defending this stage are just so non-competitive that they don't think to abuse it.

Walk-off camping is a given, yes. It's a given that it is a bad strategy in 99% of cases, the one exception being when the timer is about to run out. Not a strike against the stage in any way. Temporary walkoffs are not campable unless you value giving up stage control in return for... a few seconds of time. The transforming blast zones however are a huge strike against this stage, and the only thing stopping it being universally legal in my eyes.

Castle Siege: Not nearly as bad as Delfino, but still unplayable at best. The initial stage is mostly fine (if too small for doubles play), at least. The third stage's tilting is kinda janky, in that it can result in moves being low-profiled by characters who aren't Jigglypuff (and Puff doing it even more often) and can also cause characters to die because the stage is tilting away from their recovery. The second stage, though, is just a joke. Walkoffs in combination with the stage being massive is just hugely advantageous to camping and running away. The statues in the middle even make it harder to catch people who are running, as your attacks will be slowed down and made more punishable with they connect with them. I've heard people say that its not so bad because you can wait it out, but have you actually tried putting this into practice? This means that games on Castle Siege will regularly go to time. This is not reasonable for tournament play. Pokemon Stadium in Melee is bad enough for people just waiting out transformations. If this stage wasn't good enough for Brawl, what makes you think it's good enough for Smash 4? Dedede was not the only reason, or even the main reason, why it was banned.

I personally think this stage was just fine in Brawl, and it's definitely much better in this game. Once again, walkoffs can't be camped if they're only temporary. There is definitely runaway potential on the second transformation but i'm not convinced it's enough to be considered a problem, I rarely see matches go to time here. The third transformation tilting shouldn't matter at all considering your stance on Lylat.

Halberd: It's actually funny to me how most people think this stage is worse than the other two. I guess the stage outright attacking players just makes it seem that much worse? I respect that opinion, though, since it's definitely bad. All of the hazards on the ship itself can potentially have huge impacts on the match, and the blastzones on the regular stage are just so low that they are too advantageous for some characters.

Hazards are dumb but not a huge issue overall, the blast zones make top tiers too potent on this stage, but I'd still say it's definitely better than Delfino. Not a lot to say, this seems like Australia's favourite stage though.

Quick notes on other stages. A lot of my friends really hate Lylat, and I can definitely see why, but my personal opinion is that's its good enough to be kept legal, or even be made neutral. I don't feel too strongly about that one way or the other, though. I have the same opinion on Duck Hunt; the platforms, ducks, and the dog are all kind of silly, as is the camera being weirdly zoomed out, but it's probably good enough to keep around. I think my own dream ruleset would be keeping just these two stages along with the obvious five, and having all seven of them as being "neutral stages".

This is a good stagelist.

And thus you see the problem: not everyone has the same standards for stages. Remember how you were confused about how people can defend the trash stages? You're on the opposite side of that with regards to Lylat, it seems.

This would make sense if he was defending, say, Pokemon Stadium, but he's not, he's defending a very standard stage that nobody should really have any issues with. Anybody who thinks Lylat is one of the "trash stages" can be pretty safely ignored.

 

[MajorMajora]

We do use that actually! We provide markers for each of these at every station for people to strike easily if they can't remember for game one. Yet people still complain because...I dunno? Anyway, check it out.
View attachment 88663
In hindsight, I feel the Lylat icon should have been upside down since many people seem to think that's how the stage actually works, rofl.

How does literally anyone who understands how smash works have any issues with that. That makes it so simple.

Honestly I feel like you should almost just let them suck it up. Something that easy should become second nature eventually.

And honestly, Delfino blast zones are fine. Even on final freaking destination, people die early to gimps, sd's, etc. Why do they die early? A skill imbalance. The other person was better or they were just that bad. On Delfino, blastzones must be exploited, and a knowledgable player will know when they are at risk of falling prey to this exploitation. There is nothing uncompetitive about that.

And while halberd benefitting Rosa annoys me, banning for balance is a dangerous devil to be dancing with.

 

[FirewaterDM]

The number of people defending the trash stages in this game is disgusting. It's also amazing how the average player of every group I've seen agrees with me about all these stages being bad, and yet there's a few people defending them that keeps them around, forcing players to ban them rather than a stage for actual counterpick-related reasoning. Some notes:

Delfino: The base platform being non-solid, allowing some characters to attack from below, is the one merit to this stage. Beyond that, it's got janky blastzones that often result in people dying well before they should, and the majority of the transformations are just too detrimental to gameplay. While camping the walk-offs is a given, some of the other transformations are just as bad for being campable. Don't even get me started on the transformation with the three pillars out in the water. I have to assume that people defending this stage are just so non-competitive that they don't think to abuse it.

Castle Siege: Not nearly as bad as Delfino, but still unplayable at best. The initial stage is mostly fine (if too small for doubles play), at least. The third stage's tilting is kinda janky, in that it can result in moves being low-profiled by characters who aren't Jigglypuff (and Puff doing it even more often) and can also cause characters to die because the stage is tilting away from their recovery. The second stage, though, is just a joke. Walkoffs in combination with the stage being massive is just hugely advantageous to camping and running away. The statues in the middle even make it harder to catch people who are running, as your attacks will be slowed down and made more punishable with they connect with them. I've heard people say that its not so bad because you can wait it out, but have you actually tried putting this into practice? This means that games on Castle Siege will regularly go to time. This is not reasonable for tournament play. Pokemon Stadium in Melee is bad enough for people just waiting out transformations. If this stage wasn't good enough for Brawl, what makes you think it's good enough for Smash 4? Dedede was not the only reason, or even the main reason, why it was banned.

Halberd: It's actually funny to me how most people think this stage is worse than the other two. I guess the stage outright attacking players just makes it seem that much worse? I respect that opinion, though, since it's definitely bad. All of the hazards on the ship itself can potentially have huge impacts on the match, and the blastzones on the regular stage are just so low that they are too advantageous for some characters.

Quick notes on other stages. A lot of my friends really hate Lylat, and I can definitely see why, but my personal opinion is that's its good enough to be kept legal, or even be made neutral. I don't feel too strongly about that one way or the other, though. I have the same opinion on Duck Hunt; the platforms, ducks, and the dog are all kind of silly, as is the camera being weirdly zoomed out, but it's probably good enough to keep around. I think my own dream ruleset would be keeping just these two stages along with the obvious five, and having all seven of them as being "neutral stages".

The problem is that with this mindset, the benefit behind a counterpick doesn't exist. While we have those 7 stages everyone accepts (and let's be honest, your opinion on Lylat seems a bit like you've been burned too much by Brawl ledges, hell the brawl version of this stage was better, it forced people to be better with their recovery, etc.) but it doesn't matter. The problem with your proposal and most stagelists that are being used currently there are too few stages in my opinion. The whole point of the counterpick strategy is that you should have some advantage, whether it's big or small. The problem with the current list is that the only stages that are even remotely appearing to be true CP stages are Duck Hunt and Lylat. While people like going to SV every game in a set, there should be an emphasis of having players learn stages instead of crying to ban stages for arbitrary reasons- Brawl ledges were not as forgiving and the mechanics that made Haliberd or Delfino even considered for bans (ignoring MK) don't exist. People complain about the low ceiling- but that's something you play around. It's not the blastzones, it's Rage that's the problem (and a different discussion).

The point is the trend to conservative stagelists make the use of counterpicks pointless. There are few to no stages that create a sizeable advantage. meaning that players don't have the capability or even willingness to try and practice stages and call for bans. While it's a different issue, I think this is a bad trend because players should be forced to learn stages rather than get rid of them. Even then, a counterpick is supposed to be an advantage. it's why we don't just have every game on smashville, we have multiple stages useable for a reason and some characters should be stage/or counterpick dependent. We have seen this in the other games where the stage can change a MU or a character's viablity and even then it forces players to learn the stages. This is good because if can help develop the metagame if characters find new ways to use the stage more optimally, and it can make a difference in higher level of play between players since the stage could tilt the difference in a small way.


tl;dr- conservative stagelists in this game makes the value of a counterpick absolutely worthless. more stages or variety helps this. Counterpicking stages is something good to help both characters and players be better at either **** MU's or just game knowledge.

 

[TheNix]

The problem with your proposal and most stagelists that are being used currently there are too few stages in my opinion. The whole point of the counterpick strategy is that you should have some advantage, whether it's big or small. The problem with the current list is that the only stages that are even remotely appearing to be true CP stages are Duck Hunt and Lylat.

This point is actually something worth debating in and of itself. I don't agree that counterpicking the stage should have a significant impact on the match; in an ideal world, I would prefer if matchups were always even. Of course, given the way that stages work in the Smash series, this is impossible. No stage is perfectly even, and even if it just came down to battlefield/FD/smashville, the selected stage would still positively or negatively impact various characters. I really don't see the need to jam in a stage like Halberd because it gives some characters a noticeable advantage. That's a demerit for that stage, in my opinion.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This point is actually something worth debating in and of itself. I don't agree that counterpicking the stage should have a significant impact on the match; in an ideal world, I would prefer if matchups were always even. Of course, given the way that stages work in the Smash series, this is impossible. No stage is perfectly even, and even if it just came down to battlefield/FD/smashville, the selected stage would still positively or negatively impact various characters. I really don't see the need to jam in a stage like Halberd because it gives some characters a noticeable advantage. That's a demerit for that stage, in my opinion.

There's obviously a tipping point somewhere that makes a stage go from "workable" to "utter trash". But the general point is interesting and worth thinking about IMO.

On a different note that isn't directed at you in particular, I notice that there seems to be a lot of what Wikipedia calls the Nirvana fallacy going around in the Smash community. That is, a lot of interesting rules, stages, and the like are rejected because they're not perfect. For example, Skyloft is a generally fantastic stage with the minor flaw that the island has a hitbox as the stage flies around. This single flaw somehow overshadows the stage's many good qualities (unique platform layouts as it flies around, fewest walkoffs of the major transforming stages, no water to be seen unlike Delfino and Wuhu) and has been summarily ignored by most people since the game launched.

 

[Lomogoto]

There's obviously a tipping point somewhere that makes a stage go from "workable" to "utter trash". But the general point is interesting and worth thinking about IMO.

On a different note that isn't directed at you in particular, I notice that there seems to be a lot of what Wikipedia calls the Nirvana fallacy going around in the Smash community. That is, a lot of interesting rules, stages, and the like are rejected because they're not perfect. For example, Skyloft is a generally fantastic stage with the minor flaw that the island has a hitbox as the stage flies around. This single flaw somehow overshadows the stage's many good qualities (unique platform layouts as it flies around, fewest walkoffs of the major transforming stages, no water to be seen unlike Delfino and Wuhu) and has been summarily ignored by most people since the game launched.

I agree completely here (though skyloft does have the water fall?). I really think focus needs to be put on what we really do not want to have in a stage: perminant walk offs, caves of life, etc. Then just have any stage without any of the agreed upon issues legal.
If we do not like a stage, there must be a reason, and then we can document that reason and easily decide if a new stage will be legal or not

Ive found it doesnt take a long list of things we do not want to get the legal stage count to a good size with only reasonable stages

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I agree completely here (though skyloft does have the water fall?). I really think focus needs to be put on what we really do not want to have in a stage: perminant walk offs, caves of life, etc. Then just have any stage without any of the agreed upon issues legal.
If we do not like a stage, there must be a reason, and then we can document that reason and easily decide if a new stage will be legal or not

Ive found it doesnt take a long list of things we do not want to get the legal stage count to a good size with only reasonable stages

The waterfall in Skyloft is simply a downward push on airborne players. It's also below the normal stage line at that point, so it just makes meteors more deadly and encourages you to not take risks around that point. There's no swimmable water on the entire stage like you'd encounter on Delfino or Wuhu.

EDIT: To draw up a list of issues, I'd go with the following to start with:

Permanent walkoffs. (Temporary ones are fine since they mostly avoid the camping issue.)
Permanent caves of life. (Temporary ones are fine for the same reason.)
Excessive size. (Makes it too easy to literally run away with a lead. See: Fox on Temple.)

After removing stages that have one or more of the above features, here's what's left.

Battlefield
Final Destination
Mushroom Kingdom U
Delfino Plaza
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Jungle Hijinx
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Woolly World
Halberd
Orbital Gate Assault
Lylat Cruise
Kalos Pokemon League
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Skyworld
Gamer*
Garden of Hope
Town & City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pilotwings
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone
Wily Castle
Dream Land 64
Miiverse
Peach's Castle 64
Hyrule Castle 64
Midgar

*A weird case because sometimes it has a permanent cave of life and sometimes it doesn't.

Notable stages that slipped through are Jungle Hijinx, Port Town Aero Dive, Pyrosphere, and Skyworld. But I can easily see people having some issue or other with the vast majority of that list.

 

[Lomogoto]

The waterfall in Skyloft is simply a downward push on airborne players. It's also below the normal stage line at that point, so it just makes meteors more deadly and encourages you to not take risks around that point. There's no swimmable water on the entire stage like you'd encounter on Delfino or Wuhu.

Very true

 

[MajorMajora]

@FireWater

I don't really like differentiating between normal stages and "Counterpick" stages because it implies SV/FD/BF are somehow balanced when they, in fact, strongly favor certain playstyles.

This is why FLSS is important. It lets all stage types get played equally, letting the match up decide what is balanced rather than how many dynamic elements it has, a completely and utterly irrelevant variable.

 

[Yikarur]

oh I haven't subbed this. stupid me.

Germany has decided to run Lylat, Town & City, Omega, Smashville and Battlefield as starters and Duck Hunt, Dreamland 64, Castle Siege and Delfino as Counterpicks.
The idea of full list stage striking was opposed by most TO's for time reasons. Of course I provided perfect reasoning why this is not an issue, but we all know that logic, arguments and proofs are not enough nowadays to convince the stubborn default human.

 

[Pazx]

FD is the strongest counterpick stage in the game and it's been considered one of the 3 most "neutral" stages since 2009. That should be enough to show that the starter/CP distinction is a bad one.

 

[TheNix]

I can at least understand the concern when there's like 9 stages involved, since it could get a little confusing to remember what stages are left to strike. The average player in pools certainly weren't bothering to properly do stage striking at Evo with that ruleset, because there was too many stages.

 

[Yikarur]

If people don't want to properly strike because they are too lazy to learn the rules then this should not be to the disadvantage of all other players who properly study stages.
Rulesets should not cater to the bad uneducated and ignorant players. We would probably ban the whole game if that were the case.

 

[Culex77]

I'm pretty sure you all have gone over Midgar being tourney legal pretty extensively at this point but I'd just like to throw in my two cents on the matter. In a spoiler so it doesn't take up a ton of space.

Spoiler

Honestly I could see it as a counter-pick in the same vain as Halberd. Hear me out on this. Three out of the five summons aren't really that disruptive to be specific Ramuh, Ifirt and Leviathan. I defiantly agree with Bahamut ZERO and Odin being the most disruptive but honestly you can avoid Zantetsukin and Teraflare pretty easily since you have a fair amount of time to see them coming and get out of the way. The same goes for Tsunami, Hellfire and Judgement Bolt. I also thought one could simply avoid the Summon Materia and just wait for it to disappear but unfortunately that's not the case. Those summons are gonna happen since the Materia never disappears. I know. I tested it. This is just my opinion though. Whether this stage is tourney legal or not...I'm still gonna Gentleman's Rule it when I get the chance too.

Unrelated to tournament legality...Midgar's death rates must sky rocket when Bahamut ZERO and Leviathan use their attacks. Teraflare destroys a good portion of the city before reaching the stage and well...do I even NEED to explain Tsunami?

 

[Ulevo]

oh I haven't subbed this. stupid me.

Germany has decided to run Lylat, Town & City, Omega, Smashville and Battlefield as starters and Duck Hunt, Dreamland 64, Castle Siege and Delfino as Counterpicks.
The idea of full list stage striking was opposed by most TO's for time reasons. Of course I provided perfect reasoning why this is not an issue, but we all know that logic, arguments and proofs are not enough nowadays to convince the stubborn default human.

This is a strong ruleset, and the one I run at my locals. No one has any complaints, particularly with Halberd banned. While I think stage striking is the better competitive decision, it is only locals so we keep it on a more casual basis and striking five makes it easier.

 

[MajorMajora]

I'm pretty sure you all have gone over Midgar being tourney legal pretty extensively at this point but I'd just like to throw in my two cents on the matter. In a spoiler so it doesn't take up a ton of space.

Spoiler

Honestly I could see it as a counter-pick in the same vain as Halberd. Hear me out on this. Three out of the five summons aren't really that disruptive to be specific Ramuh, Ifirt and Leviathan. I defiantly agree with Bahamut ZERO and Odin being the most disruptive but honestly you can avoid Zantetsukin and Teraflare pretty easily since you have a fair amount of time to see them coming and get out of the way. The same goes for Tsunami, Hellfire and Judgement Bolt. I also thought one could simply avoid the Summon Materia and just wait for it to disappear but unfortunately that's not the case. Those summons are gonna happen since the Materia never disappears. I know. I tested it. This is just my opinion though. Whether this stage is tourney legal or not...I'm still gonna Gentleman's Rule it when I get the chance too.

Unrelated to tournament legality...Midgar's death rates must sky rocket when Bahamut ZERO and Leviathan use their attacks. Teraflare destroys a good portion of the city before reaching the stage and well...do I even NEED to explain Tsunami?

One thing I'm concerned about is the seeming randomness as to where the summons appear, seems rather swingy and like it will randomly favor one player. Often times it will certainly go to one player or another.

That being said, if where it will end up can be told immediately after it starts moving (if there are a finite number of ways it can travel and they are distinctive to a watchful eye), then I see little reason for it not to be one.

 

[Tinkerer]

The idea of full list stage striking was opposed by most TO's for time reasons. Of course I provided perfect reasoning why this is not an issue, but we all know that logic, arguments and proofs are not enough nowadays to convince the stubborn default human.

One of the best ways to not ever get anything changed is to be a bit of a **** about it afterwards, I find.

There's obviously a tipping point somewhere that makes a stage go from "workable" to "utter trash". But the general point is interesting and worth thinking about IMO.

On a different note that isn't directed at you in particular, I notice that there seems to be a lot of what Wikipedia calls the Nirvana fallacy going around in the Smash community. That is, a lot of interesting rules, stages, and the like are rejected because they're not perfect. For example, Skyloft is a generally fantastic stage with the minor flaw that the island has a hitbox as the stage flies around. This single flaw somehow overshadows the stage's many good qualities (unique platform layouts as it flies around, fewest walkoffs of the major transforming stages, no water to be seen unlike Delfino and Wuhu) and has been summarily ignored by most people since the game launched.

Skyloft does have the problem of having a lot of transformations that are pretty much unplayable due to having incredible caves of life or very tough to approach layouts (3/12 rather than Delfino's 1/9), so causes more transformations to be camped out. Yes, the random hitbox also scares people, for sure, but after playing with the stage for a while at a local it was noticeable that people just didn't like the stage for its layout reasons, too.

EDIT: Meant to edit rather than doublepost, sorry.

 

[Yikarur]

One of the best ways to not ever get anything changed is to be a bit of a **** about it afterwards, I find.

I made a very strict process about it. If TO's and players are heavliy against a rule it's not of a help to try to force it on them. In fact you can't force it on them if they are the TO's who have the final decision anyway.

It's just that reason and logic is not accepted. Rules are decided by feeling and biased paradigms.

 

[Tinkerer]

I made a very strict process about it. If TO's and players are heavliy against a rule it's not of a help to try to force it on them. In fact you can't force it on them if they are the TO's who have the final decision anyway.

It's just that reason and logic is not accepted. Rules are decided by feeling and biased paradigms.

Which is completely fine, by the way. One of the things that's really frustrating about the whole stage legality discussion is the uppity attitude people get from it, and in this thread and the last there's a lot of "TOs and players are inherently conservative and never listen to reason". It's better to realize that all stage selection is completely based on feeling because what constitutes a legal stage is for a very large part a completely arbitrary thing anyway - there's no scientific unit of legality showing what exactly is a legal stage and what isn't. A majority of people just simply not liking the stage without anything past that is as good a reason to ban as any. Don't dismiss all those people out of hand because of "reason and logic" because that reason and logic was pretty arbitrarily decided in the first place. And with TOs rather taking less stages at the moment rather than more, the way to go for more stages isn't to belittle them.

 

[smashbro29]

Everytime I see the Bayonnetta trailer I can't help but think that her stage is definitely legal. It's FD with different platform layouts and the occasional bit of debris that comes in low to the ground that you can bounce people off of.

 

[19_]

Everytime I see the Bayonnetta trailer I can't help but think that her stage is definitely legal. It's FD with different platform layouts and the occasional bit of debris that comes in low to the ground that you can bounce people off of.

I know how you feel, but we really can't prove anything till it comes out. All we can do is hold on to our butts till February.

 

[smashbro29]

I know how you feel, but we really can't prove anything till it comes out. All we can do is hold on to our butts till February.

I refuse! It's awesome!

 

[HavocThunder]

It's been a while since I last posted here, but I just figured why not, I'll take another shot at this.

I can brainstorm some solutions for how to avoid cave of life scenarios:

• Remember where the walls are if they're off-camera
• Learn the trajectory your moves send opponents at, especially any anti-air moves
• On a life lead, stand outside the cave and wait for your opponent to approach you
• Use throws to force your opponent out the cave (don't throw people at walls, easiest tech ever)
• Watch what your opponent does after they tech and punish appropriately
• Mix up how you hit the opponent so its harder to tech on reaction
• Use projectiles, pokes, and solid spacing to keep your opponent out from the cave
• Take mental notes when people are more likely to roll towards the cave on knockdown/whenever

Basically I think there's a lot of smart decisions that can be made in the neutral game that will allow everyone to use walls to their advantage instead of disadvantage. It's about a change in mindset and perception on how walls work.

I think these strategies can turn stages that feel dreadful into interesting counterpick stages. I can't really prove this in a way that will satisfy people, but it's shockingly easy to practice wall strategies if you check out Sudden Death or play matches with the handicap at 300%. These work for me pretty well in my experiences on stages with caves in them. It would be nice to try this stuff on Gamer or Peach's Castle in a tournament somewhere. I don't really see it happening anytime soon so I'll just stop there.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Hey all, it's me again. Our tournaments may suffer a major loss here.

So as of recently my current ruleset has been criticized in terms of how stages are dealt with. Now as you may remember, we run the usual seven stages with full stage striking in 2-3-1 order, which has been tried and true and has just flat out worked for months now.

People, in spite of my major posts I have made in our states group on Facebook, do not like FLSS for some reason or another. We put up a poll asking whether we want to stick with FLSS as we have, or go back to the horrible starter/counterpick distinction, and oh lord it is not looking good for us right now. Been trying hard to hold onto this, but a vocal few seem content with reducing the amount of available stages to just five game one. I'm going to try to message those who are voting for as well as against it to try to get an idea here on the general consensus, and maybe hopefully clear the air here on why our current system is just better.

Any suggestions? I'm collecting my info as always and presenting it as clearly as I can to voice why I think this is a very bad idea to change, and I'm just feeling generally lost.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Persuasive writing is not my forte. That said you could start by asking why they want to do away with FLSS, very loudly and very frequently.

If the proposed starter list contains both Battlefield and Dream Land, point out that it gives a heavy advantage to ZSS game 1, forcing the other player to strike both of them and effectively letting ZSS pick freely between Final Destination, Smashville, and Town & City. (Other characters get an advantage too but ZSS is a high-profile example. She's also clearly strong enough to not need any coddling by the ruleset, not that rules should be made to coddle characters in the first place.)

Ask why a stage would be allowed for game 5 of a grand finals match but not game 1 of pools, or whatever the lowest tier of matches is in the events affected by this. Because that's what you create when you have counterpick-only stages.

As a last resort, ask if there is a reason some of the stages are falling out of favor. Call out any use of the word "jank" and ask for specifics, e.g. Delfino's inconsistent ceilings.

 

[superthatdudeguy]

can someone explain to me why delfino and halberd could be considered legal, but skyloft is not. sorry for my newbness lol

 

[ParanoidDrone]

can someone explain to me why delfino and halberd could be considered legal, but skyloft is not. sorry for my newbness lol

Skyloft can damage players if they make contact with the island while the stage flies around. IMO that's a rather silly reason but it's the only real negative the stage has, as far as I can tell.

 

[PGH_Chrispy]

I feel really strongly about Lylat being a starter and imagine now is as good a time to join in the discussion and argue for it. It'd be a shame to see it lose its place to Umbra in a 5 starter ruleset, since it adds so much uniqueness as a legal stage in a starter system.

Lylat, now that ledges are mostly fixed, has 2 defining traits: the three horizontal ledges, and the tilting. These traits are both unique among static stages, and game altering, but NOT game-breaking. In fact, the combination of low platforms and tilting stage serve to make this stage essentially the antithesis of FD, interfering with projectiles and giving more options for returning to the stage. I believe that as balanced as Battlefield and Smashville are, Wii U needs Lylat to balance out Final Destination, especially with how prominent projectile users including Sheik, ZSS, Mario, Ryu, Fox, Ness, Luigi, and countless mid and low tiers who rely even more on projectile play have become, even if projectile play isn't the main game of most of the listed characters.

Of course, that leaves one stage missing from 5 starters, which can be filled several ways. Dreamland, Miiverse, Duck Hunt, T&C, Halberd, and now Umbra Clock Tower have claims to the spot. I personally support T&C thanks to a manageable ceiling height and platform layouts changing to vary gameplay, but my opinion may change to Umbra after seeing if it can fill the same role of shifting platforms, but better.

While I'm on the topic, Umbra may be a suitable replacement for T&C, but I do NOT believe it should ever replace Lylat in the 5 starter format. Umbra and Lylat serve completely different functions as stages, and should work in tandem, not one or the other. If nothing else, T&C and Umbra (barring testing otherwise) will be too similar with changing platforms to be on the same starter list, much like Battlefield, Miiverse, and Dreamland.

 

[Yikarur]

Lylat as starter is standard in germany. And Beast 6 (Europe major) uses lylat as starter as well.
It should really be standard across the globe.

it doesn't make sense to talk about umbra clock tower until we know exactly how the stage is turning out to be.

 

[Radical Larry]

You know, I think we should stop talking about the current starter stages and upcoming DLC stages for a while to actually try to talk about the actual stages we should be talking about. In turn, I want us to talk about...

Mario Galaxy, Mushroom Kingdom U, Peach's Castle, Jungle Hijinx, Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft, Hyrule Castle, Pokemon Stadium 2, Skyworld, Wrecking Crew, Pilotwings, Wuhu Island and Windy Hill Zone

I will be straight up with you that if you ignore every bad thing these stages have and actually do some tests yourself, you'll find out that a lot of these stages need to be looked at again, as some are just unfairly banned for the most unfathomably stupid reasons, whether it be hazards that can be overcome, walk-off parts or even a stage similar to it that's already legal or counterpick.

You have to ask yourself, why? Why are stages like these who have relatively amazing balance not talked about in terms of legitimate legality for starter or counterpick? Why do we have to have such a strict and stringent amount of stages legal? Why can't we just actually find stages that can be fun and be legal at the same time?

Narrow-mindedness and conformism, that is why.

If one could actually take the time to test the stages outright, whether it be a match or training mode, one can note the downsides to a stage and one can note the upsides to stage, too.

Think of this, what is the reason Skyloft is banned and not counterpicked? Because of Delfino Plaza. People will say that since Delfino Plaza is (or was at one point) a starter or counterpick, there would be no need of Skyloft. That would be the dumbest reason to exclude a stage that would otherwise be more balanced than Delfino Plaza; that's prioritizing seniority, basically, without giving accurate testing to another stage. One may argue about it having walk-offs, but I argue that they are known to be temporary and actually very easy to punish against.

There are stages on here that I've listed that have completely nothing wrong with them, aside from a couple being walk-offs and some having hazards that are actually beatable or outright avoidable. I don't get the mentality of Smash players at all, at times. These stages would be good for actually balancing the game out with characters, but if people don't try arguing for them and see people argue against them, then people will not know that these stages are actually pretty balanced.

But then again...
People, especially those in the Smash community, don't really like change at all, do they? Would you rather have a strict list of stages that would ONLY benefit a few characters, or have a much broader selection that has stages that would benefit all characters in some way in the name of balance?

The current stage roster is completely wrong, and stages like Skyloft or even Pilotwings prove that it is wrong and needs to be heavily expanded upon.

 

[MajorMajora]

Radical Larry I agree on a lot of what you said, though maybe the not the extremity of it. Pilot Wings has legitimate camping concerns, and there are people who have reasons other than 'We already have Delfino" for banning Skyloft, per se.

I agree with you that the burden of proof is on the side of the banners, but they kind of already provided evidence for a lot of those, so I think it would be more productive to refute specific claims on how things can be overcome instead of just saying they can.

I haven't heard very much in regards to Jungle Hijinx, however. Have people actually gone to prove there is legitimate concerns with camping or random factors? I don't know much about that stage.

 

[Yikarur]

I don't even know why I bother answering you, because I shake my head on almost any post of you but I'll try it anyway

.
Mario Galaxy, Mushroom Kingdom U, Peach's Castle, Jungle Hijinx, Kongo Jungle 64, Skyloft, Hyrule Castle, Pokemon Stadium 2, Skyworld, Wrecking Crew, Pilotwings, Wuhu Island and Windy Hill Zone

Where is Kalos Pokémon League?

I will be straight up with you that if you ignore every bad thing these stages have and actually do some tests yourself, you'll find out that a lot of these stages need to be looked at again, as some are just unfairly banned for the most unfathomably stupid reasons, whether it be hazards that can be overcome, walk-off parts or even a stage similar to it that's already legal or counterpick.

No one bans stages, because similar stages are legal.

You have to ask yourself, why? Why are stages like these who have relatively amazing balance not talked about in terms of legitimate legality for starter or counterpick?

because they are not amazing balanced..

Why do we have to have such a strict and stringent amount of stages legal? Why can't we just actually find stages that can be fun and be legal at the same time?

because certain strategies break most of those stages.

Narrow-mindedness and conformism, that is why.

no.

If one could actually take the time to test the stages outright, whether it be a match or training mode, one can note the downsides to a stage and one can note the upsides to stage, too.

most people like me (who hold a high value of "innocent until proven broken") will have tested every stages in-depth.

Think of this, what is the reason Skyloft is banned and not counterpicked? Because of Delfino Plaza.

no because the stages has unpredictable hitboxes everywhere that safe people very randomly.

People will say that since Delfino Plaza is (or was at one point) a starter or counterpick, there would be no need of Skyloft. That would be the dumbest reason to exclude a stage that would otherwise be more balanced than Delfino Plaza;

Those people are stupid.

There are stages on here that I've listed that have completely nothing wrong with them, aside from a couple being walk-offs and some having hazards that are actually beatable or outright avoidable.
I don't get the mentality of Smash players at all, at times. These stages would be good for actually balancing the game out with characters, but if people don't try arguing for them and see people argue against them, then people will not know that these stages are actually pretty balanced.

Almost every stage is banned for a reason.

The current stage roster is completely wrong, and stages like Skyloft or even Pilotwings prove that it is wrong and needs to be heavily expanded upon.

That you are defending pilot wings is prove that you don't even try to thing about those stages. Pilotwings is completely terrible on first glance...

but I'll break it down for you:

Mario Galaxy
Walk-off camping -> degenerative.

Mushroom Kingdom U
Nabbits breaks the stage.. sadly. But you would probably discuss with people for years even without Nabbits anyway (I'd like it..)


Jungle Hijinx
Circle Camping, ridiculous blastzones.. first point is enough.

Kongo Jungle 64
Circle Camping

Skyloft
Parts of the stage "randomly" saving people. It's really stupid.

Hyrule Castle
Cafe of Life, huge blastzones and too strong hazards all together make this stage pretty terrible.

Pokemon Stadium 2
The wind transformation has nasty 0-20 to death combos. Thats the main issue.

Skyworld
Circle Camping, Cafe of Life, occasionally missing ledges..

Wrecking Crew
Circle Camping

Pilotwings
Unreachable camp spots on both planes and circle camping.

Wuhu Island
I don't have anything against this stage. One might thing it's too large and so running away tactics are massively improved but I haven't seen this in practical play so far. Banned for basically no reason.

Windy Hill Zone
The stage is too large. You can run away pretty effectively.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Oh, you're taking Larry seriously.

Poor choice, that.

 

[Radical Larry]

Okay, let me raise legitimate arguments on certain stages for a little bit here:

Mario Galaxy: It is not your typical walk-off stage, and yes, despite you being able to walk off, there's an extremely far distance to try walking off. Also, look at the shape of the stage itself; the stage shape is very different from a straight-forward walk-off, as the edges seem to act sort of like "edges" on non-walk-off stages. While people may concern themselves with camping on one end of the stage, there's the thing, this stage has the largest walk-off lines out of any walk-off stage, and it takes literally forever to actually KO someone by camping near the edge.

Mushroom Kingdom U: Nabbit often comes randomly or during a second phase or third phase (I don't know when), but whenever I see Nabbit, instinctively I'd want to KO him as fast as possible. Now the stage transitions after a very long amount of time, which means the chances of seeing Nabbit, if he's at random, are also lowered since the stage takes nearly forever to go to the next part. None of the parts actually contain anything that can be considerably bannable, all except for Nabbit, who can just be simply KO'd or better yet, escaped from. Since we have the best method (multi-button mashing) of releasing your character from grab status, it'd be easy to get away from Nabbit if he captures you.

Jungle Hijinx: Alright, fair point, but the stage is otherwise balanced with everything else. The blast zones are only wonky because the stage is unique to the series in that it's a foreground and background stage. Also, on the first point, circle camping is actually relatively impossible for this, as the foreground and background sink after a certain period of time that you are on the stage, so you're going to have to be on one side of the stage or the other. Furthermore, there's the pillars that suddenly pop up or the cannons blowing up that ultimately destroy any chance of circle camping. Heck, even the cannons leaving off screen and the layout of the stage prevents circle camping.

Kongo Jungle 64: Wow, a stage that has so many platforms to jump on is able to circle camp? Even though the stage clearly is impossible to? That's my question to ask, how is it remotely possible to circle camp on this otherwise balanced and neutral stage that you can't circle camp in? There's two middle platforms and two top platforms, as well as a bottom one and a barrel. It's not very likely, if at all, you'd be able to circle camp unless your character has high jumping prowess over a character like Little Mac, and even then, opponents may predict where you're going, opponents may have projectiles, opponents have a lot up their sleeve to prevent it. It's actually hard to circle camp on this stage, it's not easy.

Skyloft: That's the same exact concept as Delfino Plaza, but this stage has more fairness into it, and it's not random to save you. Random means that it's not choreographed in any fathomable way possible. Skyloft is actually very linear in there it goes, and you will know where it goes when you see it, too. All parts of the stage are balanced, even the walk-off portions, as you'll get punished when the platform arrives back on stage on a walk-off portion and camp there, making you an easy target to KO afterward. There's not many places that can "save" your opponent if you know how long it takes to transition from one place to another, or if you can just simply KO them off the side or the top blast lines.

Hyrule Castle: The cave of life in this stage is very...small. So small and avoidable as well, and it has only one direction, vertical. So a simple horizontal attack in this "cave of life" is enough to destroy your opponent. The stage has huge blast lines, but it's not like it can't be fixed by using characters with relatively high KO prowess, sticking by the edges of the stage or going for bottom blast zone KOs or off stage KOs. The two hazards on the stage are actually very predictable unlike their Smash 64 counterparts, which could have turned very fast. You may argue that they are powerful, but only if they make contact with you. Like many other things I've talked about, they come out at a relatively preset time, as well, so worrying about these hazards is nothing unless your opponent actually starts throwing you into them, or in Ganondorf's case, F-Tilting you.

Pokemon Stadium 2: While true that the wind portion of the stage is very harmful to one, you can't just let one part of a stage ruin a stage for you. This stage, while having transformations, also has a balanced platform on it at the start, and the transformations are all random at best. The wind portion of the stage only applies on stage, I believe too, but correct me if I'm wrong on that. While it is a controversial stage at best, it could at least be a counterpick.

Skyworld: Okay, this is a good excuse. These are actual things that convince me of it being banned since it is actually an unfair stage at times. Next.

Wrecking Crew: How do you defeat this stage's circle camping? The hazards themselves or just by going up or down. That's it. The stage has nothing else wrong with it. The idea that you can circle camp in this stage is beyond me when you have characters like Falco go against someone like Diddy Kong or Sheik. Falco can easily jump high enough to reach the two if they try circle camping, for example, and even if they go off the edge of the soft platforms, remember, they are SOFT platforms, so you can just tap down and boom, you're at where the opponent will be if you hold down. Circle camping on this stage is very, very hard because there's literally only one way you can, and it will often times backfire if your opponent can tell very well.

Pilotwings: There...is the inability...to circle camp on this stage...whatsoever. The stage layout is just two planes, that's it, one with soft platforms on the top and one with just one single, Final Destination-like platform that tilts like Lylat Cruise. So if it tilts like Lylat Cruise, that also removes the ability to efficiently camp with projectiles. The other sides of the stage are NOT unreachable, you can actually reach them quite well if you have the patience, the skill to perfect shield and the will to go. If you're close enough, bait your opponent to jump and they will jump above you, where you can hit them. Camping and having unreachable camp spots aren't the problem. Even the plane with the soft platform has no really unreachable camping spots, despite there being a bottom portion to the stage. If there was really a problem with circle camping or just campable spots, there'd be some evidence supporting this, but with projectiles being mostly linear and the stage tilting, I find it hard to believe that there's actual unreachable camping spots, and with the entire cast (except Villager) being unable to go under the planes or successfully over one another (if they are projectile camping), Circle Camping is also hard to believe here.

Wuhu Island: They banned it because of a glitch that was patched and applied to a very specific section of one section, the boat. The stage has the "we have Delfino so we don't need it" argument as well to it, but that's not a good argument to go with. The stage has 3 walk-offs, one of which in particular has two lower blast zone points (the bridge), but the stage transitions so there's no need to be worried about them.

Windy Hill Zone: But remember, this stage has platforms, and what do we know about trying to run away on a stage that has platforms even if it's large? You can jump on the platforms, bait or wait, then retaliate accordingly. Also, a character like Falco can beat anyone trying to escape by trying to run away from a high vantage point through jumping. Now in the case of a character like Sonic fighting Ganondorf, running away somewhat applies, but remember, it's not impossible to wait or bait an opponent. Plus, a character like Link or Samus could easily find ways to beat opponents running away and get the opponent toward them. If you're in the lead, you'll want to get a stock or defeat your opponent just to ensure your lead or win.

 

[Pazx]

Come on guys, he began his post with "if you ignore everything bad about these stages", he can only drop so many hints before even the thickest among us catch on.

Of the stages named I think Wuhu Island, Skyloft and Kongo Jungle are all pretty good and I'd be happy to attend events with them legal.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Played a lot on PS2 recently.
It's incredibly easy not to get grabbed on the Flying stage, the wind even helps you to stay on the air and offstage so you don't get to be on the ground for too long.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Played a lot on PS2 recently.
It's incredibly easy not to get grabbed on the Flying stage, the wind even helps you to stay on the air and offstage so you don't get to be on the ground for too long.

Doesn't help the majority of the transformations being ****, though.

 

[Routa]

Doesn't help the majority of the transformations being ****, though.

How come? As far as I know there is nothing wrong with the other "broken/janky" transformations.

I mean it is the only stage where you can Side-B into U-Smash to catch people in the other side of the stage as Ike (Ice transformation). You can't deny that isn't dope as ****.

I personally think PS2 should be legal. It is in my opinion the best stage to test adaptability and stage knowledge. After all Smash Bros is a PLATHFORM fighting game.