Garden of Hope has the crystal crab. That thing comes with short warning, runs across at least half the stage, and is one of the hardest hitting stage hazards in the game. This stage doesn't even make my top 15 for legality candidates
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Pilotwings is a no-go since both planes have powerful camping positions. Especially the yellow one, the pontoons below the wings are valid places to stand. If you can get there and the opponent can't, that's GG for the next minute and a half or so. If the opponent can try to chase you, it's still a huge advantage to the camper.FD is a worse duckhunt . . .
The complete lack of platforms makes FD easily the most polarizing starter, and just because it is simple doesnt make it a good choice in the starter list.
Im not saying ban FD obviously, but pretending everyone hates duckhunt is ignorant. Its also the only stage with walls other than certain omegas.
If we are going to move toward less conservative stages, id like to throw in pilot wings, skyloft and my personal favorite: garden of hope
Garden has hazzards much easier to avoid than halberd and has interesting mechanics at the edges without being to game breaking.
What is Stadium doing there? Are you forgetting the Wind transformation?Of the stages, though, we've already got a basic idea of what goes where;
LEGAL (STARTER)
Battlefield/Miiverse
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pokemon Stadium 2
These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.
What is Stadium doing there? Are you forgetting the Wind transformation?
The Wind transformation doesn't hamstring any characters and does not favor any playstyles, so I count it as legal as a starter.These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.
So if everybody has them, why is it problematic? If we complain about banning PS2 becase of the Wind transformation giving characters ridiculously early vertical kills, Delfino should be unanimously banned as well, because that stage is practically heaven for ridiculously early vertical kills.Sheik killing at 10% from a grab doesn't feel like legal material.
/plenty of other characters have ridiculous vertical kill combos during wind too
Because "jank" is so nebulous and vague as to be effectively meaningless. Specify.PS2 has Jank, why is that even legal in some states
Gonna be completely honest, I'm surprised at all the ways people use the word "Jank". It's an adjective, an adverb, AND a noun, all at the same time!PS2 has Jank, why is that even legal in some states
You consider Jungle Hijinxs a legal counterpick stage, the easiest stage to evade the opponent and time out, but consider Midgar a banned stage?LEGAL (STARTER)
Battlefield/Miiverse
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Pokemon Stadium 2
These stages all are fairly good as starting stages, in that they favor no particular playstyle and don't have gimmicks that can hamstring them for certain characters. The basic nature of these makes them great for most every character in the game.
LEGAL (COUNTERPICK)
Pyrosphere (Omega)
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Wily's Castle (Omega)
Skyloft
Castle Seige
Lylat Cruise
Orbital Gate Assault
Skyworld (Omega)
Midgar (Omega)
Gaur Plains (Omega)
Dream Land 64
Peach's Castle 64
Temple (Omega)
Norfair
Windy Hill
Port Town Aero Dive
Jungle Hijinx
Luigi's Mansion (Omega)
Hyrule Castle (64)
OGA is Pokefloats-tier IMO, maybe a bit better since you can actually grab the ledges. Nowhere near ideal, but workable if you're familiar enough with the stage to not worry about the ships coming and going.You consider Jungle Hijinxs a legal counterpick stage, the easiest stage to evade the opponent and time out, but consider Midgar a banned stage?
Also, Orbital Gate Assault is another pretty insane stage that I would put at the bottom of the "potential legal list"
...No, that's dumb.Midgar can be a fair stage because, there is ample warning for each transformation, The platforms don't do much damage if you don't land on them, Odin's Spear is super easy to avoid, Water affects everyone, although I don't know if the stage lip damages the summoner if they ram into it. The biggest problem I would say is Bahumut's laser, but that I feel can be waited out. I would say try it before insta-banning it.
Midgar is a lost cause, but is undoubtedly the most fun Hazard stage in the game.Midgar can be a fair stage because, there is ample warning for each transformation, The platforms don't do much damage if you don't land on them, Odin's Spear is super easy to avoid, Water affects everyone, although I don't know if the stage lip damages the summoner if they ram into it. The biggest problem I would say is Bahumut's laser, but that I feel can be waited out. I would say try it before insta-banning it.
"Show me video evidence as to why a Battlefield clone entirely centered around its stage hazards doesn't interest people in having it as legal"I ask anyone to show me video evidence as to why Midgar shouldn't be legal without staging it. ie. Having someone stand in Odin's way, walking into the laser. Because all I hear is a bunch of empty reasons.
I can send you a link to the contrary but I know this a touchy subject for some people so I won't post it here if I don't have to.I don't know, how about you show me video evidence that jet fuel can't melt steel beams?
I agree Umbra Clock Tower looks promising. I'm rather excited, for it and Bayonetta both.Midgar is a lost cause, but is undoubtedly the most fun Hazard stage in the game.
Umbra Tower is the new hope.
Tbh I haven't labbed other characters much because I don't really see the point when the stage is so obviously broken.Ghostbone who else can get early kills? I imagine ROB is a contender because I think his uair also autolinks, but is there anyone else?
Well for starters (pun not intended) it's impossible for me to take any stage list that considers using the starter CP system seriously. Your insistence on certain elements benefiting certain characters more is pretty poor because everything is relative, and SV/FD/BF all favor certain playstyles over others themselves. I could honestly make the argument we should only have transforming stages since they have the widest range o playstyles supported, which isn't anymore BS than having exclusively Flat+Plat first game when we agree other stages are fair enough to be legal.At some level, the largest problem with PS2 being legal isn't even the wind transformation, but the electric transformation (it's legitimately worse than the wind in terms of disrupting gameplay). At the same time, if we're throwing out ideas for stagelists, I do have a few ideas, though it's not quite as liberal as some others posted. As a side note, under no circumstances should we ever consider a stagelist smaller than 7 stages
Starters: -
Smashville
FD/Omegas
*Lylat
Town & City
Battlefield/Millverse
*Dreamland
This is the "golden 6" obviously would only keep 5 as starters, but the only questions would be Dreamland and Lylat, either way if we only were to include the generic 7, no experimentation, Lylat's more likely the better Starter because of the different layout to the other stages. Not real counterpick stages, certain characters prefer some more to others, but generally the advantages gained are very small (some cases do change such as Mac on FD/Omegas in certain MU's and Shiek on Smashville) but overall are even enough.
Counterpicks: (Generally accepted as ok counterpicks)
Duck Hunt
Dreamland/Lylat
These stages are pretty much fair game, no reason to remove, few hazard that actually change the game. can give a tiny advantage to certain playstyles or characters, and would be the most logical if stagelist was ever expanded to 7 starters to be added. Each has specific stage elements that players should learn.
In terms of Bans- Only way to ensure a BO5 can happen is at maximum 1 ban. More than that makes BO5 sets with DSR impossible.
Additional Counterpicks:
Delfino
Haliberd
Kongo Jungle
Castle Siege
These stages are based on preference- better in terms of the reasoning behind the term "counterpick" because each stage has certain characteristics that can directly benefit characters in some way (short blast zones, larger stage/space, etc.) Are banned because of lack of knowledge of the stage or salt. Even if certain issues exist (low ceilings, Haliberd ship weapons, barrel). If the player does his or her knowledge of the stage/information of their character, most complaints should go away. Most jank is due to character design or lack of knowledge. Also certain mechanics (walkoffs) were nerfed due to grab changes.
In terms of Bans- If only one stage from the list is added, a 8 stage + 1 ban would be sufficient.
Reasoning- One ban allows for strategic removal of the percieved worse stage in a MU. Since the list is still relatively limited, more than 1 ban would make BO5 sets incredibly difficult and make the advantage of a CP stage relatively useless.
If 2 or more of the stages are added, then a second ban is required, while it could create the original problem, you have enough stages to where 2 bans is actually feasible and wouldn't be used to eliminate stages unnecessarily
IMO- Order of least to most viable is Delfino <- Kongo <- Siege/Haiberd.
Controversial/More than likely to get a negative response
Wuhu Island (Some transformations are meh, namely beach)
Pilotwings (camping potential on second plane is only concern)
Hyrule Castle 64 (Tornado, cave of life)
Peach's Castle 64 (caves of life)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (the stupidity that is the electric transformation)
Mario Circuit (Wii U) (some transformations are sketchy)
Wii Fit Studio (Is viable if we overcome distrust of walkoffs)
Gamer (random layouts, MOM)
Midgar/Cloud's Stage (Laser = low visibility, general power of the summons)
Norfair (size, lava)
Out of this list they have definite traits that make them useful counterpick stages. However there are potential hazards or misconceptions that make them unlikely to ever be added. They should not be used before the stages before them, however I believe Wuhu and Hyrule Castle 64, and possibly PS2 could be adequately added to a stagelist. However there are significant concerns that give good justifications for why they shouldn't be included. The other issue is then the stagelist and options become too large. counterpick options are great, but should not make it to where more than 3 bans would become a nesessity. Reasons why stages are controversial/not worth testing are added.
Thanks Sakurai for ruining viable stages
Wily's Castle (Yellow Devil)
Pyrosphere (Ridley)
Kalos League (Water, Steel type transformation)
Skyloft (waterfall transformation)
Mushroom Kingdom U (Nabbit is only reason this can't be legal)
Not much to say, while the design is excellent and makes a CP stage, there are elements that cannot be adapted to or even exploited for a fair game in competitive settings.
if i didn't name a stage it is 100% unfit for comp play.
I think what you said made a lot of sense, and easing into more stages with counter picks isn't a bad idea. In the mean time, I would also recommend trying to find some way to make stage striking easier for your competitors. A laminated sheet and dry erase markers are the best solution as far as cost effectiveness vs. practicality goes. Easy to reset each match and there's a clear, visible indicator of what has/hasn't been striked. Goes faster than random stage select, too.I think as we've run FLSS for quite some months now with seven stages and looking at two stages to add potentially, the recent slight complaint that FLSS can be slightly confusing to some despite and forgetting what they strike at times when coming to tournaments often does have some merit to it I feel when looking at including new stages. If people are just barely tolerant of it with seven stages, how would I expect people to be down with the system using nine stages?
Compromise is always nice for these kinds of things. I'm looking to make a big proposal potentially this coming February if Umbra Clock Tower is legal material. Some here still do not think, with the understanding of FLSS, that Dreamland should be available immediately game one, which is respectable to me given the similarities to Battlefield enough where it does feel like you're striking from two Battlefields. My hypothetical ruleset would be this for stages, based purely on what I've seen of Umbra Clock Tower and from feedback from our community regarding our current stages.
Starters
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Umbra Clock Tower
Counterpick
Dreamland 64
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?
The first proposed plan for our scene is for those who deem Dreamland to be too similar to Battlefield to be available immediately. It would have more unique stage layouts, and there would be true counterpicks. Again, I wouldn't reintroduce counterpicks just because, but there has to be some level of compromise or people would not be set with FLSS nine stages. Though I personally wouldn't mind it at all.
I wish to thoroughly explore and lab up on Umbra Clock Tower. Or another idea would be to keep our usual first seven starters and if certain stages feel as though they more strongly benefit certain characters than the more neutral stages, like so.
Starters
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Palutenas Temple
Smashville
Town & City
Lylat Cruise
Duck Hunt
Dreamland 64
Counterpick
Umbra Clock Tower
Wuhu Island? Delfino? Peach's Castle?
This ruleset would keep our first seven stages as they have been for months with the addition of two other stages available game two. Again, I'm not suggesting the starter counterpick distinction is a terribly good one, but for a scene that is somewhat accepting of me running FLSS seven stages at all, nine would be turned out universally.
Of course I won't know about Umbra Clock Tower until it releases. And it may not be good at all, and be incredibly polarizing of a stage, which is why I have Wuhu, Delfino, and maybe Peach's Castle as backup as I feel all three add to tournaments, though I personally am a firm believer that Delfino is suspect of not being allowed again.
I think they are different for a lot of purposes, but they are the same in the most important aspect: The matchup against ZZS and other characters that make significant use of the top platform.Honestly I feel like Battlefield and Dreamland are different enough, between the platforms height, blast zones, and the wind. I'd argue there's about as much difference between the two as between FD and T&C. However, I could understand it being a counterpick as a compromise. It'll be easier to accept if your region ever goes to 9 stage striking.
We do use that actually! We provide markers for each of these at every station for people to strike easily if they can't remember for game one. Yet people still complain because...I dunno? Anyway, check it out.I would also recommend trying to find some way to make stage striking easier for your competitors. A laminated sheet and dry erase markers are the best solution as far as cost effectiveness vs. practicality goes. Easy to reset each match and there's a clear, visible indicator of what has/hasn't been striked. Goes faster than random stage select, too.
Pretty much its a game mechanics thing I think. In Smash 4 many more characters can do combos to take advantage of the low ceiling and the hazards are more effective/game changing.The main bitterness with Halberd is its ceiling. In a world where Luma could kill at 19% and ZSS, MK and even Mario could kill at 0%, it's felt that counterpicking Halberd just gives vertical killers a figurative "stat boost" instead of, say, providing any substantially different terrain for them to work with. Couple that with resentment about the claw and the ship deck's weird edge, and there's a lot of negativity surrounding it. Whether or not this amounts to a worthy reason to ban is up to you.