Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[Radical Larry]

Banned stages, a staple apparently for Smash Bros. Whether or not it's the inherent amount of haphazardly dangerous stages to the incredibly large stages, one must conclude that there are quite the number of banned stages that will often go overlooked for many years, but often or not have relatively normal balance in the game otherwise. Take for example in this game, the stages that aren't banned are Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town and City, Dreamland, Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise. So we got a pretty poor amount of allowed stages for this game and it's likely to stay that way, but why? Why limit ourselves from the fun in competitive matches?

The point of the game is to make it balanced, but by just going out of your way by banning any stage that doesn't seem "balanced" to your eyes means that a character is completely negatively impacted by it. The point of a game's balance would be that all stages are allowed by any means necessary, no matter what is in said stage. Are there hazards to the stage? Are there low blast lines or KO spots in the stage? So what if there are? It's to make the game actually balanced.

For example, a stage that would benefit a select amount of characters would be Battlefield. You may actually think this is a balanced stage, but in the end, the characters who have the most advantage would be ZSS and Meta Knight, for example, since they would be able to KO very early in the stage, and yet no one targets the stage for allowing characters to very easily KO others prematurely.

Then take a stage like Temple. It may drag out the game quite a bit, but this stage heavily benefits the MU of various characters like Ganondorf and Bowser. You may ban it for being too large or having the cave of life, but in all honestly, just use the top portions of the map; it's just that simple. Or better yet, if you use the cave of life, impose restrictions on it, don't let characters get their damage in a single combo past 200% damage. It's so simple that even a baby could understand the fundamentals behind it.

By banning various stages, people are unintentionally and yet directly harming the MUs of characters by a somewhat significant margin. This may sound stupid, but if you would allow stages like Temple or stages like Boxing Ring, it'd be fundamentally better for MUs instead of just allowing a select number of stages for the game. So why are we just limiting MUs instead of exploring them vastly? Isn't the point of competitive play to explore and see what may happen in the end?

Look at games like Call of Duty, Battlefield and Halo; all their stages are completely legal. If not that, take Soul Calibur, which has stages that ring out and stages that are extremely thin, small or large; most of their stages are pretty legal, and I've yet to see a large roster of banned stages to allowed stages that outweigh the amount of allowed stages.

I'm at the point of no return here, so in my opinion, why should any stage be banned? Why should you all be so pessimistic about stages without getting a firm grasp of how viable these stages can be if you get out of your narrow-minded shells and see the big world that is meta-game? If you could all just think for a moment and ask yourself, "Am I really here to make a balanced MU or skew the MU in the favor of our top tiers?", your likely answer would be "No." So what should you do about it? Is it to try balancing the characters in this game? To try to keep banning stages? No. The answer is just simple...

You have to stop trying to ban stages and start unbanning them, see where it goes in tournaments, and don't be so judgemental of a stage until you actually see it in competitive play. You have no clue as to what may even happen, because you don't even try seeing what could happen or not, because you are all so pessimistic about it.

...but hey...
...what do I know?
I'm considered a person who's a troll to the competitive scene, yet my arguments are actually quite valid.
But then again, people are to stigmatized and narrow-minded to actually think outside of the box for one second.

 

[Shouxiao]

Banned stages, a staple apparently for Smash Bros. Whether or not it's the inherent amount of haphazardly dangerous stages to the incredibly large stages, one must conclude that there are quite the number of banned stages that will often go overlooked for many years, but often or not have relatively normal balance in the game otherwise. Take for example in this game, the stages that aren't banned are Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, Town and City, Dreamland, Duck Hunt and Lylat Cruise. So we got a pretty poor amount of allowed stages for this game and it's likely to stay that way, but why? Why limit ourselves from the fun in competitive matches?

The point of the game is to make it balanced, but by just going out of your way by banning any stage that doesn't seem "balanced" to your eyes means that a character is completely negatively impacted by it. The point of a game's balance would be that all stages are allowed by any means necessary, no matter what is in said stage. Are there hazards to the stage? Are there low blast lines or KO spots in the stage? So what if there are? It's to make the game actually balanced.

For example, a stage that would benefit a select amount of characters would be Battlefield. You may actually think this is a balanced stage, but in the end, the characters who have the most advantage would be ZSS and Meta Knight, for example, since they would be able to KO very early in the stage, and yet no one targets the stage for allowing characters to very easily KO others prematurely.

Then take a stage like Temple. It may drag out the game quite a bit, but this stage heavily benefits the MU of various characters like Ganondorf and Bowser. You may ban it for being too large or having the cave of life, but in all honestly, just use the top portions of the map; it's just that simple. Or better yet, if you use the cave of life, impose restrictions on it, don't let characters get their damage in a single combo past 200% damage. It's so simple that even a baby could understand the fundamentals behind it.

By banning various stages, people are unintentionally and yet directly harming the MUs of characters by a somewhat significant margin. This may sound stupid, but if you would allow stages like Temple or stages like Boxing Ring, it'd be fundamentally better for MUs instead of just allowing a select number of stages for the game. So why are we just limiting MUs instead of exploring them vastly? Isn't the point of competitive play to explore and see what may happen in the end?

Look at games like Call of Duty, Battlefield and Halo; all their stages are completely legal. If not that, take Soul Calibur, which has stages that ring out and stages that are extremely thin, small or large; most of their stages are pretty legal, and I've yet to see a large roster of banned stages to allowed stages that outweigh the amount of allowed stages.

I'm at the point of no return here, so in my opinion, why should any stage be banned? Why should you all be so pessimistic about stages without getting a firm grasp of how viable these stages can be if you get out of your narrow-minded shells and see the big world that is meta-game? If you could all just think for a moment and ask yourself, "Am I really here to make a balanced MU or skew the MU in the favor of our top tiers?", your likely answer would be "No." So what should you do about it? Is it to try balancing the characters in this game? To try to keep banning stages? No. The answer is just simple...

You have to stop trying to ban stages and start unbanning them, see where it goes in tournaments, and don't be so judgemental of a stage until you actually see it in competitive play. You have no clue as to what may even happen, because you don't even try seeing what could happen or not, because you are all so pessimistic about it.

...but hey...
...what do I know?
I'm considered a person who's a troll to the competitive scene, yet my arguments are actually quite valid.
But then again, people are to stigmatized and narrow-minded to actually think outside of the box for one second.

Many stages are not tournament legal for a reason. Stages like Battlefield and Final Destination by their nature are the most balanced-netural. Also unlike other fighting games Smash stages have a large amount of variety when it comes to layouts. A lot more things can happen with stages in Smash compare to other fighting games.

Games like Tekken for example only has a few variations however. An infinite stage with no walls. A stage with walls. Some of the stages with walls have breakable walls or floors that leads to another part of the stage.

Shooters like Call of Duty have all of the maps designed to be played competitively. Smash 4 is design for fun and competitive play. When it comes to competitive play, stages with little to no RNG are chosen. Stages that have a standard layout(Battlefield and Final Destination) are chosen.

Stages with walk offs for example are banned because the neutral game is destroyed. Characters that can carry others are at a massive advantage. This is an example from Melee. Similar things would happen in Smash 4 with certain characters. Sheik for example would be insane on walk off stages.

When it comes to the huge stages like Temple if one character is much faster than the other then all they would have to do is Circle camp after taking a stock. The slower character would never catch the faster one.

If all stages were legal people would always pick high tier characters and cheese their way to victory.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

By banning various stages, people are unintentionally and yet directly harming the MUs of characters by a somewhat significant margin.

While I do agree with this to an extent, I also very strongly disagree with a few points in your comment below.

Then take a stage like Temple. It may drag out the game quite a bit, but this stage heavily benefits the MU of various characters like Ganondorf and Bowser. You may ban it for being too large or having the cave of life, but in all honestly, just use the top portions of the map; it's just that simple. Or better yet, if you use the cave of life, impose restrictions on it, don't let characters get their damage in a single combo past 200% damage. It's so simple that even a baby could understand the fundamentals behind it.

If a stage is good for competitive play, it should not have additional unnecessary rules to complicate matters to them. It's messy and regarding your point saying how you should stick purely to the top portions only; your opponents will not do this. I can't even fathom how the likes of Ganon and DK would benefit on such a large stage where they will be out-mobilized and timed out to the extreme. If I'm playing Sonic, you bet I'm going to get some chip damage in and abusing the layout of the stage to play in the most lame, but efficient way possible. Why would I not? DK and Ganondorf do not have the frame data to catch up to me, so all anyone would have to do is play runaway for the hard timeout. There's a reason stages like these are banned.

 

[Radical Larry]

Well, if you are saying that the characters have to circle camp to victory, then wouldn't it be reasonable to fake out a chase and actually manage to get them in a sort of trap? In a stage like Temple, if you make your opponent go to the platform on the very bottom in a Temple Jump, and the character cannot perform a reverse Temple Jump, then the opponent is more than likely going to fight you. Or better yet, if your opponent decides to do a true circle camp and go side-to-side, block them with aerial attacks and get them there.

But other than just Temple, if you just want a stage like Boxing Ring or Bridge of Eldin to be tournament viable, just make a rule where you can't camp near the very edge for too long. Back in Melee and Brawl, Wobbling cannot exceed 300% threshold, as it is known as Stalling. And there's penalties for Stalling. So wouldn't it be reasonable to include the same penalties for people camping on the edge of the stage?

...Stalling is against rules you know, so circle camping and camping near the edges of the stage could be up to penalty if exceeding a total of 30 to 45 seconds. So wouldn't that just be a reasonable thing to just put in and balance out said situations?

 

[Charey]

You wouldn't need to temple jump, just run around the center bit and the slow characters can never catch or trap you.

"Stalling" bans are purely bans against continuing infinite combos forever because otherwise the best play for an IC player is to get one grab then wobble for 8 minutes. Camping is a perfectly fair strategy, and most players who camp the edge of a walk off would still be attacking with projectiles, who is stalling when Fox is laser camping and Jigglypuff is ledge camping?

Rather then put in out of game rules the force a player to approach when it is not in their best interest we can ban the stages that make that sort of play overwhelmingly strong to let the game play out naturally.

 

[Shouxiao]

You wouldn't need to temple jump, just run around the center bit and the slow characters can never catch or trap you.

"Stalling" bans are purely bans against continuing infinite combos forever because otherwise the best play for an IC player is to get one grab then wobble for 8 minutes. Camping is a perfectly fair strategy, and most players who camp the edge of a walk off would still be attacking with projectiles, who is stalling when Fox is laser camping and Jigglypuff is ledge camping?

Rather then put in out of game rules the force a player to approach when it is not in their best interest we can ban the stages that make that sort of play overwhelmingly strong to let the game play out naturally.

Stages with a Battlefield or Final Destination layout are the best. Even if not like those 2 the layout needs to at least be neutral such as Delfino Plaza or Prism Tower. This is also the reason why For Glory(even if only considered semi-competitive) uses Final Destination like stages.

If huge stages were allowed there would have to be a lot of rules put in place just to make the playable. The matches themselves(even if no player was camping) would also likely last ridiculously long sense players can survive very high %.

When it comes to stages with permanent or long lasting walk offs(Wooly World) they also have problems. The neutral game would be destroyed, camping by blast zone issues, and characters that can carry others long distance would be too strong.

 

[Radical Larry]

Stages with a Battlefield or Final Destination layout are the best. Even if not like those 2 the layout needs to at least be neutral such as Delfino Plaza or Prism Tower. This is also the reason why For Glory(even if only considered semi-competitive) uses Final Destination like stages.

If huge stages were allowed there would have to be a lot of rules put in place just to make the playable. The matches themselves(even if no player was camping) would also likely last ridiculously long sense players can survive very high %.

When it comes to stages with permanent or long lasting walk offs(Wooly World) they also have problems. The neutral game would be destroyed, camping by blast zone issues, and characters that can carry others long distance would be too strong.

First off, even if the stage layouts are considered the "best", there are horrendous problems in that they'll skew the MU of characters in favor of a very select few amount of characters.

Secondly, it wouldn't matter if there were regulations put in place; it would be extremely easy and not really time consuming to actually put up a rule to make the stage playable. And you also exaggerate your statement of very high % on a stage like Temple. If you stay on one direction, you can certainly die at low damage. Stay at the bottom, top or sides, you get KO'd faster on those respective directions. In fact, a lot of attacks are vertically or diagonally based, so it's not unreasonable for a character like Mario to KO an opponent off the top of Temple or Big Battlefield at a damage that isn't considered too high, all due to its angle. A semi-spike is literally the only type of attack that wouldn't benefit from this since opponents are primarily hit toward the side.

Neutral game destroyed? Please tell me you are joking. Opponents will always have to fight no matter what; and neutral game can be a part of any single stage within the game, not just stages you would think it can only be in. On a walk-off stage, opponents will still try winning the neutral game, try getting follow-ups and try getting that good set of punishes, especially in the middle. It's not like on normal stages we don't have Zero-To-Death combos, either.

Camping by blast zone issues can be resolved by making the fighters not camp for around a TOTAL of 30 to 45 seconds or it will be called stalling; that is a perfectly reasonable rule.

And the last part, please explain more.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

It's very arbitrary to set these kinds of rules for something that is part of the game. You get in this highly subjective matter of what is considered camping and what's just them playing the game, you know? On what part of Bridge of Eldin is Sheik not allowed to needle camp? Is it on a particular part of the stage? Can I needle camp in the center? Or slightly off stage when the magnifying glass is over me? Or what about characters that don't have a strong projectile game, but are perfectly content intentionally avoiding battle by just sitting around and not doing much out of harms way?

And it's no exaggeration characters survive absurdly long on a stage like Temple. Again, you are just hurting characters who literally have no mobility or the frame data to even catch up to a lot of the cast. The frame window for teching is really not hard, and it is not unheard of even in casual play for a character to survive beyond 300 some percent and still live even from a strong smash attack because we tech those. There is no reason to set regulations and rules in place for a stage that, in competitive play, is very flawed in design. Sonic and Villager in the matchup, for instance, are already campy and prone to timeouts in more reasonable stages, and by allowing overly flawed stages with walkoffs or Temple, all you're doing is going to make a tournament drag on; they are just not fit for competitive play.

Maybe if you were advocating for a more reasonable stage with potential competitive value (Wuhu Island, Mushroom Kingdom U, Gamer), that would be neat. I just don't see what you're seeing with Temple whatsoever. It's just too big, begging for and will be abused with unfun levels of camping and runaway, and stocks last forever, assuming you can even get a hit in the first place.

Also, it's not that research wasn't done for these stages; obviously all of Paranoid's research threads are a valuable tool for how stages work, the hazards and percentages they deal, and timer based things with stages, and people have been trying the likes of Wuhu and other not universally legal stages in tournament play.

 

[Shouxiao]

First off, even if the stage layouts are considered the "best", there are horrendous problems in that they'll skew the MU of characters in favor of a very select few amount of characters.

Secondly, it wouldn't matter if there were regulations put in place; it would be extremely easy and not really time consuming to actually put up a rule to make the stage playable. And you also exaggerate your statement of very high % on a stage like Temple. If you stay on one direction, you can certainly die at low damage. Stay at the bottom, top or sides, you get KO'd faster on those respective directions. In fact, a lot of attacks are vertically or diagonally based, so it's not unreasonable for a character like Mario to KO an opponent off the top of Temple or Big Battlefield at a damage that isn't considered too high, all due to its angle. A semi-spike is literally the only type of attack that wouldn't benefit from this since opponents are primarily hit toward the side.

Neutral game destroyed? Please tell me you are joking. Opponents will always have to fight no matter what; and neutral game can be a part of any single stage within the game, not just stages you would think it can only be in. On a walk-off stage, opponents will still try winning the neutral game, try getting follow-ups and try getting that good set of punishes, especially in the middle. It's not like on normal stages we don't have Zero-To-Death combos, either.

Camping by blast zone issues can be resolved by making the fighters not camp for around a TOTAL of 30 to 45 seconds or it will be called stalling; that is a perfectly reasonable rule.

And the last part, please explain more.

The match ups are not skewed in favor of characters on neutral/starter stages. Match ups on huge or walk off stages would be be extremely bad for many characters. If anything the top/high tiers characters would be even stronger on huge or walk off stages. Some top/high tier characters would even be God Tier on huge or walk off stages.

On stages like the Temple one could simply just go to the underground section to survive. There a player that has good tech skills can easily used the walls to live beyond 300%. The Temple stage is know as the Fight Club for a reason. The only way a person can get an easy KO on a stage like Temple is if they are fighting to the far top left or far right of the screen.

On stages with walkoffs characters like Sheik would have no problem using F air or N air to Bouncing Fish combos to gimp a stock. Once that combo starts that stock is likely gone. Zero Suit Samus has a 0 to death that if slightly changed up for walk offs would be a KO and all it would take is one down smash. Other characters have combos that can do similar things on walk off stages.

Play in the middle of a walk off stage? Well characters that can carry like Sheik would combo and carry a character from the middle to blast zones. Play on the edges? Well the neutral game would be dumb due to how a player would have to change their options of play. One can just wait for a grab and KO. If one has projectiles and the other does not well...

There is many exploitable things that can happen on stage like the Bridge of Edin and Temple.

 

[Radical Larry]

The match ups are not skewed in favor of characters on neutral/starter stages. Match ups on huge or walk off stages would be be extremely bad for many characters. If anything the top/high tiers characters would be even stronger on huge or walk off stages. Some top/high tier characters would even be God Tier on huge or walk off stages.

On stages like the Temple one could simply just go to the underground section to survive. There a player that has good tech skills can easily used the walls to live beyond 300%. The Temple stage is know as the Fight Club for a reason. The only way a person can get an easy KO on a stage like Temple is if they are fighting to the far top left or far right of the screen.

On stages with walkoffs characters like Sheik would have no problem using F air or N air to Bouncing Fish combos to gimp a stock. Once that combo starts that stock is likely gone. Zero Suit Samus has a 0 to death that if slightly changed up for walk offs would be a KO and all it would take is one down smash. Other characters have combos that can do similar things on walk off stages.

Play in the middle of a walk off stage? Well characters that can carry like Sheik would combo and carry a character from the middle to blast zones. Play on the edges? Well the neutral game would be dumb due to how a player would have to change their options of play. One can just wait for a grab and KO. If one has projectiles and the other does not well...

There is many exploitable things that can happen on stage like the Bridge of Edin and Temple.

And yet a stage like Battlefield, Town and City and Smashville aren't horribly skewed to the favor of ZSS and MK? Or the fact that Duck Hunt Stage can allow for them to get the easiest vertical kills of their lives? How would these stages be neutral at all? They're horrendously skewed toward characters who would have amazing vertical kill setups at very, very low damages.

On another note, Town and City and Smashville can be considered the same tier as a walk-off stage, since their sides allow for extremely early side KO's from throws, Smashes or combos, and characters like Sheik can carry opponents all the way through if the platform is facing their direction and headed toward the edge of the stage.

Those stages even have exploitable means to them, so to say that they are neutral is basically saying that walk-offs are neutral.

A stage like Big Battlefield or even a custom-made stage would work wonders! It doesn't even take much to set up a custom stage that can be tournament viable. All you need are styluses, a sense of creativity and a sense of having some damn good straight lines. A custom stage has better potential to be a neutral stage than a stage like Battlefield, if not having equivalent potential.

I'm just going to digress my argument toward custom stages for a while and give crucial details as to why they should be considered viable options and picks for a stage.

 

[Ghostbone]

On another note, Town and City and Smashville can be considered the same tier as a walk-off stage, since their sides allow for extremely early side KO's from throws, Smashes or combos, and characters like Sheik can carry opponents all the way through if the platform is facing their direction and headed toward the edge of the stage.

Town and city and Smashville don't have close side blast zones.
What the **** are you even on about.
(and when referring to the smashville platform, it's fairly trivial to avoid getting thrown off close to the blastzone, and nowhere near gamebreaking)

A stage like Big Battlefield or even a custom-made stage would work wonders! It doesn't even take much to set up a custom stage that can be tournament viable. All you need are styluses, a sense of creativity and a sense of having some damn good straight lines. A custom stage has better potential to be a neutral stage than a stage like Battlefield, if not having equivalent potential.

Any character that doesn't have really good mobility can literally never catch someone like Sheik, Wario, Sonic, etc. on Big battlefield.
You complain that top tiers benefit from neutral stages, top tiers also benefit from every banned stage even more because of their assortment of options and high mobility.

Like you really just have no idea about these things lol. And I really dislike this thread getting cluttered up by useless temple discussion >.>

 

[Radical Larry]

Town and city and Smashville don't have close side blast zones.
What the **** are you even on about.
(and when referring to the smashville platform, it's fairly trivial to avoid getting thrown off close to the blastzone, and nowhere near gamebreaking)


Any character that doesn't have really good mobility can literally never catch someone like Sheik, Wario, Sonic, etc. on Big battlefield.
You complain that top tiers benefit from neutral stages, top tiers also benefit from every banned stage even more because of their assortment of options and high mobility.

Like you really just have no idea about these things lol. And I really dislike this thread getting cluttered up by useless temple discussion >.>

The Smashville Platform is the reason it has close blast zones. If you're recovering and that's the closest thing you can get to, you'll take it, the opponent can read it and boom, just like that you're gone again. Or the opponent can simply put you up there with a throw or combo and end you with another combo or throw.

And on your argument with Big Battlefield, remember that there...are...platforms. A lot of them. I can't even fathom how you'd even think that the characters such as Sheik, Wario and Sonic COULD potentially run circles against characters with less mobility. It's not how the layout works. It's called predicting someone's move for a reason. It's called reads, it's called not letting your opponent get away by walling them, it's called using the right attack.

 

[Ulevo]

Yo, stay on track please.

 

[Masonomace]

Stages that have been through Smash history for being banned for said reason such as Temple, Kongo Jungle 64, please don't involve these stages. About that reverse Temple jump, I will do this to you if we are suggesting that stages like Temple could be healthy for competitive smash.

Back to the topics, it's a shame that Duck Hunt is getting removed from said tournaments & their respective legal stage ruleset. I see nothing wrong with that stage other than the characters with poor jump height getting stalled / out-camped, but counterpicks are counterpicks for a reason.

For the OP's topic:

• Should Halberd be considered legal for tournament play?
Doesn't really matter to me. For a Bo3 whether I win Game 1 & ban Halberd or lose Game 1 & pick something that isn't Halberd, then whatever. Sunday I played at a local tournament & played on Halberd for Doubles & didn't hate it too much due to my knowledge of the stage already, & that I'm a veteran Brawl player who was aware of the stage's faults & abuse. Some players give Lylat so much flack for it's "dumb ledges" yet Halberd's second transition's flight deck underneath the stage can pineapple you hard if you're not aware of it. So again, I'm okay with the stage's inclusion as a CP or it's perma-ban from every tournament.


• Should Delfino Plaza be considered legal for tournament play?
I think it should. Despite of the stage's transitions blastzones shriking upon the shifting to the next transition, I've already prepared myself ahead of time not to get grabbed or punished via vertical knockback within that time frame since I've come to respect it. The water & walk-off areas of said transition are apparent so it's not "jank" in any way to me. In these cases, some players don't know that your swim time becomes reduced the higher your current percentage is, which can matter if you plan to paly patient with how you return to the stage from jumping out of the water.


• Should Castle Siege be considered legal for tournament play?
I actually like Castle Siege, but that probably doesn't come to a surpise when I mention that I primary Shulk. I enjoy playing on many stages because Monado arts are an adaptive tool that allows me to play to the favors or faults of said transition, which is mainly the reason why I favor Delfino Plaza & Wuhu Island (and Pokemon Stadium 2. . .). The shifting changes from the first transition to a falling walk-off phase to another walk-off transition requires heed to the mind that sudden terrain forming either prevents further conflict or more captitalizing off a moment. Otherwise, this stage is okay in my book.


• Should Wuhu Island be considered legal for doubles? Possibly singles?
I'm in favor of considering it legal for both doubles & singles. There's a fine spread of transitions that aren't hazardous or degenerate by any means I feel, & the few transitions there are that promote camping shouldn't come to a surprise when we still see it done to this day in Smash games. Although, it's hype to see cliff fights or unexpected conflict. But if a decision were needed now, I'd say to include Wuhu for doubles only, to give players a feel of the stage while still keeping it clean due to how large the stage transitions are for more freedom & change to adapt to each transition without it being too large constantly like Big Battlefield or Pyrosphere.


• Assuming five stage strike, should Lylat Cruise or Dreamland 64 be used as the 5th stage?
Ehhhhhh, these stages have debatable factors that point to more quirks, or more neutrality to make it a better-fitting starter.

Lylat Cruise in itself is a platform-based stage like others, but the curved sloped floor including the platforms near the ledge have interesting utility as well as the stage not having the most easy ledges to garb onto. Plus the platforms are very close to the floor are a bit closer than the standard platform stage. It's blastzones are also to be taken into account. For one the pit blastzone is very low in comparison to Dreamland having a very large pit blastzone. Secondly the middle platform is of near the same height as the platforms near the ledge unlike Dreamland who is more similar to BF & Miiverse with the respective upper high platform. The only other differences afaik are Dreamland's Whispy Woods possessing a wind push effect that can even push someone standing on one of the lower platforms & that Lylat Cruise's ledges can be sharked & planked whereas Dreamland can't, really.

If it were up to me, I don't know. I'm fine with either but to answer I'd say Dreamland 64 for simplicity. This can come off as boring, but like I said, I'm completely fine with Lylat Cruise being one of the 5 starters & Dreamland being a CP for said reasons. So either or it doesn't matter much to me. Ultimately I'm more in favor of LC being the 5th stage just so that people play on it more.

 

[Radical Larry]

The only thing that would make Duck Hunt being considered for banning is the fact that the tree allows for extremely early KOs, sometimes even to Zero-To-Deaths. And that would be a completely valid argument considering there are characters like Ike, Meta Knight and ZSS.

 

[Shouxiao]

I think Delfino Plaza, Duck Hunt, Castle Siege, and Halberd should be legal counterpicks. Wuhu Island is a maybe for me.

 

[Ghostbone]

The Smashville Platform is the reason it has close blast zones. If you're recovering and that's the closest thing you can get to, you'll take it, the opponent can read it and boom, just like that you're gone again. Or the opponent can simply put you up there with a throw or combo and end you with another combo or throw.

If it's the closest thing you can get to, you would have died on every other stage too, what's your point.

If you don't DI completely horribly, your second point will never happen.

And on your argument with Big Battlefield, remember that there...are...platforms. A lot of them. I can't even fathom how you'd even think that the characters such as Sheik, Wario and Sonic COULD potentially run circles against characters with less mobility. It's not how the layout works. It's called predicting someone's move for a reason. It's called reads, it's called not letting your opponent get away by walling them, it's called using the right attack.

All this is telling me is that you can't actually visualize camping at all.
In the time it takes for you to climb up the platforms, Sheik can run under you or bouncing fish over you.
There's no amount of reads that will fix this, Sheik can react to any movement by you and get away because she has higher mobility, I don't know what you don't understand about this.

 

[Radical Larry]

If it's the closest thing you can get to, you would have died on every other stage too, what's your point.

If you don't DI completely horribly, your second point will never happen.

All this is telling me is that you can't actually visualize camping at all.
In the time it takes for you to climb up the platforms, Sheik can run under you or bouncing fish over you.
There's no amount of reads that will fix this, Sheik can react to any movement by you and get away because she has higher mobility, I don't know what you don't understand about this.

I'll skip straight to the second part.

You say that there's no amount of reads that can fix this. I can point to a variety of characters who can disrupt a Bouncing Fish that comes above them with properly timed jumps and attacks. Let's see, ooh, Link, Peach, Mario, Luigi, Olimar, Meta Knight, Ike, Captain Falcon, Marth, Roy, Lucina, Pit, Dark Pit, Palutena and almost everyone else can disrupt the Bouncing Fish attack. Almost everyone can read that from a mile away when it starts up. If they're 2 platforms below, there's a worse chance for some characters to get to her, but it's not impossible. It's not like she can jump out of Bouncing Fish.

Secondly, what if she lands on a platform after Bouncing Fish; that landing lag sure is delicious. If the opponent's close, Sheik can and probably will get hit.

Run under you? Well, how many characters have efficient N-Airs? Because I'm pretty sure that a N-Air is more than enough to actually hit Sheik under you if you talk directly below or nearly directly below. Maybe she's a bit afar, maybe she's a bit in front, it's not like mind games and projectiles don't exist, because they do. Sheik jumps, you feint your attack and hit her with a counterattack. Sheik goes in, you can N-Air or even feint the attack and grab. Sheik is too far, just use a projectile if you have a projectile character.

This sounds silly to you possibly, but these are indeed valid counterarguments to take into account.

 

[wizrad]

Halberd = banned
Stupid blast zones, two hazards, the drop at the beginning, it surprises me that we consider this 'competitively viable'.

Delfino Plaza = legal
Very unique. The only problem is the transforming blast zones, which aren't intrusive enough to warrant a ban.

Castle Siege = legal
Again, nothing intrusive. People complain about the walkoff, but being temporary means it can't be camped effectively and the lack of chaingrabs in this game means there's no insta-win button because of the walk off. No reason for banning.

Wuhu Island = legal for singles and doubles
This was only banned because of a glitch. The glitch has been patched.

Dreamland 64 vs Lylat = yes?
I prefer Lylat since we already have Battlefield, but I think letting an out-of-game process dictate what we can use in-game is ridiculous. Why not both?

WHERES CONGO JUNGLE 64??

 

[Radical Larry]

Halberd = banned
Stupid blast zones, two hazards, the drop at the beginning, it surprises me that we consider this 'competitively viable'.

Delfino Plaza = legal
Very unique. The only problem is the transforming blast zones, which aren't intrusive enough to warrant a ban.

Castle Siege = legal
Again, nothing intrusive. People complain about the walkoff, but being temporary means it can't be camped effectively and the lack of chaingrabs in this game means there's no insta-win button because of the walk off. No reason for banning.

Wuhu Island = legal for singles and doubles
This was only banned because of a glitch. The glitch has been patched.

Dreamland 64 vs Lylat = yes?
I prefer Lylat since we already have Battlefield, but I think letting an out-of-game process dictate what we can use in-game is ridiculous. Why not both?

WHERES CONGO JUNGLE 64??

In my opinion.

Halberd = Agreeable ban for the same reasoning. Add skewering characters with amazing vertical KO with better chances of winning due to lower blast lines and the fact that you shouldn't try recovering too low or risk your recovery getting caught under the stage, and you got a prime rib ban.

Delfino Plaza = Disputable. On one hand, you have points with your argument, but don't forget that there are segments where the stage turns into a walk-off (because apparently walk-offs are bad), though they are temporary (but abundant).

Castle Siege = Agreeable legal. I don't see why people would want to try camping on this walk-off part, but let's not forget that there's two balanced portions of Castle Siege in the third and first transformations. The walk-off segment doesn't matter when the transitioning starts, which is rather fast (though could KO you if you taunt).

Wuhu Island = Agreeable. This is something I don't get, really. It's a stage of absurd balance, but it's likely due to the layout of the stage itself, as well as the hazardous boat (not the glitch) that might make this debatable. At one point, you're on a beach, next, the volcano, after that, the bridge with the absolute worst gapping in the game (that's also a walk-off with lower blast-zones).

Dreamland 64 vs Lylat = Eh, might as well have both. Why ban Dreamland when we had it in 64 and Melee days?

Don't mind Kongo Jungle, where's Bridge of Eldin? It's not a permanent walk-off (since there will be a lower blastline at some point), there's only two hazards if you throw yourself into them, there's a lower blastline when the bridge is destroyed and camping won't be very effective here since there are no platforms whatsoever to keep you from getting hit by the opponent. Plus, who would risk trying to grab and throw near the edge of the stage when they could be dealt the same blow? I think the point of the game is to stay away from blastlines, so that wouldn't be an issue. Camping can be dealt with perfect shielding attacks and reads on this particular stage. It's probably the most balanced of the walk-offs, so it raises my interest why it's not even counterpick or even legal.

 

[wizrad]

The transformations on Delfino are so short that trying to camp the walk off is dangerous. Your opponent gains center stage and can easily prevent you from returning to the stage as soon as the stage begins changing again.

The walk off on Eldin is permanent. You can walk into the blast zones on either side, regardless of whether there's a temporary lower blast zone.

 

[Radical Larry]

The transformations on Delfino are so short that trying to camp the walk off is dangerous. Your opponent gains center stage and can easily prevent you from returning to the stage as soon as the stage begins changing again.

The walk off on Eldin is permanent. You can walk into the blast zones on either side, regardless of whether there's a temporary lower blast zone.

But it's extremely dangerous to even be in the side blast zones to begin with on Eldin. It might be a permanent walk-off, but people find ways of getting opponents out of the blast zones. You can't just expect a character like Link to stay at the very edge of the stage when they're facing the likes of Falcon. Most likely scenario is, is that Falcon will grab Link and F-Throw him to death before Link could possibly get him.

So CQC would be that go-to option in the event of something like that, or characters with dangerous throws to begin with. An average, casual player will take the opportunity, but in a tournament, you'll have to do CQC, you can't run away forever as that is stalling.

 

[Ulevo]

The topic about Lylat versus Dreamland is not about which one should be legal over the other, but which one should be used in a 5 stage starter list.

 

[Radical Larry]

The topic about Lylat versus Dreamland is not about which one should be legal over the other, but which one should be used in a 5 stage starter list.

Limiting a starter list to 5 stages is actually a very...
Honestly, it's a bad idea to begin with. Limiting the stages to just five stages a pop is just a horrible thought on paper and if done. If you really want players to get things done with stages, just let them pick from a selection of 8 to 10 starters, not 5. At least then they can fight. No need to eliminate all to one, just have agreements, just talk it over on which stage you want to play; does that not make sense to you?

 

[Ulevo]

Limiting a starter list to 5 stages is actually a very...
Honestly, it's a bad idea to begin with. Limiting the stages to just five stages a pop is just a horrible thought on paper and if done. If you really want players to get things done with stages, just let them pick from a selection of 8 to 10 starters, not 5. At least then they can fight. No need to eliminate all to one, just have agreements, just talk it over on which stage you want to play; does that not make sense to you?

No it does not. And you should really avoid being the catalyst for throwing this thread off topic again going forward.

 

[Ghostbone]

This sounds silly to you possibly, but these are indeed valid counterarguments to take into account.

No they're not

All of that only applies if you can get close to Sheik, which you can't, because the stage is so big.

Again, you really don't understand what you're talking about.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Attempting to steer the discussion back on course here. What are the advantages of bringing Wuhu into a doubles tournament format? What does it offer beyond variety that the other stages don't? And going off the doubles mentality, is there any stage people have argued that works in singles that does not work as well in a doubles setting by chance?

 

[Cheap Shot]

I would argue that Halbred isn't that great of a stage for doubles since the hazards aren't very avoidable and the low-blast zone on top is even more dangerous.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Attempting to steer the discussion back on course here. What are the advantages of bringing Wuhu into a doubles tournament format? What does it offer beyond variety that the other stages don't? And going off the doubles mentality, is there any stage people have argued that works in singles that does not work as well in a doubles setting by chance?

One of the complaints against Wuhu is the size, and it's true that the flying platforms are rather large, not to mention some of the transformations like the beach. Large stages tend to make people worry about stall tactics. Stalling in doubles isn't really feasible, though.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for a stage to be too small for doubles to work, but the only case I can think of where a stage was explicitly banned for doubles is Fountain of Dreams in Melee, and that's because the reflections in the water can make the game lag with 4 players. So it's a technical reason more than anything else.

 

[Shouxiao]

One of the complaints against Wuhu is the size, and it's true that the flying platforms are rather large, not to mention some of the transformations like the beach. Large stages tend to make people worry about stall tactics. Stalling in doubles isn't really feasible, though.

I suppose it's theoretically possible for a stage to be too small for doubles to work, but the only case I can think of where a stage was explicitly banned for doubles is Fountain of Dreams in Melee, and that's because the reflections in the water can make the game lag with 4 players. So it's a technical reason more than anything else.

Me personally I think Wuhu should be a counterpick for doubles. Like you have stated stalling does not really work for doubles. Most of the stages changes are neutral and they do not last long at all. Only 15 seconds for every stage transition.

In Melee if Fountain of Dreams did not have the frame drop issues then it would likely be played on for doubles. It would be like a smaller battlefield with different place platforms.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

I can already taste the hostility about this stage in our local scene, even for doubles.

 

[Xeze]

My two cents on the OP:

Halberd: our Smash scene has this stage legal, but many people, including myself, dislike it. I can see it go away in the future. Extremely low ceiling plus the hazards on the ship are the main reasons. I've seen many people getting KO'd by the claw, the most unpredictable hazard. Also it can screw up recoveries and offstage you have less options to avoid it.

Delfino: banned. Weird blastzones during transitions, walkoffs on the majority of transformations and water. A lot of stupid stuff can happen on this stage. Keep it away from competitive smash.

Castle Siege: this stage wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for the second transformation. It's a walk-off transformation that lasts for like 40-ish seconds. That's too much. The statues aren't too bad, imo. There's also some weird stuff that can happen during transitions, but the second transformation is the main problem of this stage.

Wuhu Island: banned. Some transformations make me cry. The bridge with the holes, the volcano, the beach area...

Lylat vs DL64 as 5th starter: while DL64 seems more suited for starter stage than Lylat, I honestly think that having more variety in the starter stages is a good thing. Therefore I would support Lylat as a 5th stage. Even though BF and DL64 are different enough, they have a similar layout.

 

[elmike]

If halberd, delfino or castle siege are legal (which i think they should), i see no reason of why wuhu shouldnt be.

Why isnt skyloft legal?

 

[Xeze]

From the footage of Bayonetta's new stage, what do you think of it? Does it have the potential to be a tournament stage?

 

[ぱみゅ]

It doesn't seem to have any outrageous mechanic, occasional "roofs" at best, but it will be a matter of how often/obtrusive they are to be widely approved.
I personally really liked the preview.

 

[Shouxiao]

My two cents on the OP:

Halberd: our Smash scene has this stage legal, but many people, including myself, dislike it. I can see it go away in the future. Extremely low ceiling plus the hazards on the ship are the main reasons. I've seen many people getting KO'd by the claw, the most unpredictable hazard. Also it can screw up recoveries and offstage you have less options to avoid it.

Delfino: banned. Weird blastzones during transitions, walkoffs on the majority of transformations and water. A lot of stupid stuff can happen on this stage. Keep it away from competitive smash.

Castle Siege: this stage wouldn't be bad if it wasn't for the second transformation. It's a walk-off transformation that lasts for like 40-ish seconds. That's too much. The statues aren't too bad, imo. There's also some weird stuff that can happen during transitions, but the second transformation is the main problem of this stage.

Wuhu Island: banned. Some transformations make me cry. The bridge with the holes, the volcano, the beach area...

Lylat vs DL64 as 5th starter: while DL64 seems more suited for starter stage than Lylat, I honestly think that having more variety in the starter stages is a good thing. Therefore I would support Lylat as a 5th stage. Even though BF and DL64 are different enough, they have a similar layout.

When it comes to Halberd, Delfino, Castle Siege, and Wuhu Islands I think for the most part they are going to be ban but for some tournaments may be allowed.

I do like the idea of 5 starters. I know Lylat got fixed(had some odd things going on at first) and nothing is wrong with DL64.

Also I wonder if some of the Omegas stages can be used. Not saying all should just be legal but I know the community like certain Omega stages. Maybe 1 or 2 could be used.

 

[KaizorOne]

Halberd - Banned
Fast and simple.
- Hazards
- Dumb Blast Zones
- Some Chars can lamely Spike
- To much SD's or lame Spikes on start.

Delfino Plaza - Banned
- IDK why this Stage was ever legal. Imo the only playable part of it is the first one. The other ones got sth like Walkoffs, Water and other weird stuff.
• Should Castle Siege be considered legal for tournament play?
- Counterpick. I actually really like this Stage. The first Part is amazing and would actually be one of the most played Stages imo. The 2nd transformation actually ruins it a bit, but imo it is not enough to totally strike this out. Esp. when the most players camp on it anyway until it's over.
• Should Wuhu Island be considered legal for doubles? - banned in both
I don't see this stage legal at any point. The Boat Part is so ******** and also the 2nd Part of the Stage is hardcore easy to Spike and Lame at. No thx. Rather would like to see Pilotwings in Doubles, but this won't happen at all.
• Assuming five stage strike, should Lylat Cruise or Dreamland 64 be used as the 5th stage?
Dreamland for Legal, Cruise for Counter. I really like those Stages and i don't really see any point for them to get banned. Cruise has amazing little things that add up to some Lowtiers like Combobreaks etc and i don't see a bad point at that. Dreamland got no point for not being unlegal or counter.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My only concern with Bayonetta's stage is whether or not the angel/demon fight can affect the players. If not, it seems obviously legal. Any solid platforms are a) in motion and b) temporary, so that's not grounds for a ban.

In other news, I have a thread up on Midgar now. It's pretty obviously banned because lol summons, but it's still a fun stage to mess around on IMO.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Compiled every notable image I could of the upcoming stage. In the last image it appears that it may or may not be a walkoff, only can't tell because the camera seems to cut off the platforms to the side. Regardless, enjoy!

 

[Collective of Bears]

I see Umbra Clock Tower being a counterpick for sure. At least from what we've seen, it seems pretty stable.