Meta Stage Legality Discussion Thread: Round II

[paperchao]

Probably going to be starters plus counterpicks, as most people don't really have a positive opinion on readding delfino or castle siege back into the stagelist

 

[Skynerd]

So, we all are aware of the upcoming release of Bayonetta and Corrin. Along with Bayo we get her new stage which from what we've seen can be a new legal stage. So far, all of the legal stages that most tournaments and smash sites can agree on are these.

Neutral stages
Battlefied, Final Destination, Dreamland 64, Town and City, and Smashville

Counterpicks
Duck Hunt, Lylat Cruise

I strongly feel that a new stage be added to the list. I propose, that Kongo Jungle 64 be added to the roster of counterpick stages. It is already legal in doubles tourneys and I feel that by adding this to counterpicks we add more diversity to competitive play. It has platforms that move vertically and rotate in an oval shape, two stationary platforms, a curved incline on both sides creating more diverse gameplay than just a flat stage normally would. Now, for the part that is a tad odd which could create an imbalance.

The barrel, which we all know has some counter play to it which would allow characters with poor recoveries to make a stand and get back. I find that this is both negative and positive. Firstly, the ability to help characters with poor recovery such as Cloud, Dk, Little mac, Doctor Mario, Roy, etc. Giving rewards to those who cannot reach the platform. Now, the jank part of the barrel. Once shot out of the barrel you have some invincibility frames which allow you to be un-targetable until you stop spinning from the blast. This gives you chance to recover but it also leaves you vulnerable. I also discovered a glitch while using Bowsers up b on the surface of the stage. (Bowser Main)

Link to examples of weird parts that could make it not viable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qfGMDSmSOW4
Example One of vulnerability when shot out of the barrel (1:33)
Example Two Falling through stage with whirling fortress (1:44)
Example Three Invincibility frames from the barrel (2:28)

While performing whirling fortress my opponent pikachu actually went underneath the stage. Which has never happened before and hasn't happened since. Either way, I feel like the barrel shots can be worked around to make this a legal stage. I feel that it will add more variety to our current stage choices and should at the least, be considered by the community. Thank you

 

[Teshie U]

The layout of Kongo Jungle is terrible for competitive play, platform camping ruins any benefit characters with poor recoveries might have here. Poor recovery pretty much pairs with poor mobility (most recoveries are mostly based on airspeed and jump height).

If you tend to have trouble recovering, you will hate trying to chase someone to the to platforms.

Bayonetta's stage looks legit, but I fear nationals wont allow it because of 3rd party music on streams being a big no-no. #esports

 

[FamilyTeam]

I've seen some people argue for Delfino Plaza, Pilotwings and Halberd, but Kongo Jungle looks like a stretch, for me.
If any new stage makes it to the rotation, it will either be one of those three or Bayonetta's stage.

 

[Xeze]

Umbra Clock Tower boys!

With an 8 stagelist we can go back to 2 bans during counterpicking. And yes it's probably gonna be starter + counterpick format, it's the one people are the most used to.

 

[Teshie U]

Halberd and Delfino are often banned because of the way they speed the game up. Pilotwings and Kongo have terrible layouts for competitive play. People that want these stages legal probably don't understand the concept of platform or circle camping. Two players trying to win on these stages will probably go to time without after taking any stocks.

 

[Xeze]

Bayonetta's stage looks legit, but I fear nationals wont allow it because of 3rd party music on streams being a big no-no. #esports

This is something I don't understand. If 3rd party music can't be played on stream, why don't they turn it off in "My Music"?

 

[Teshie U]

The 7 stages featured at Genesis 3 were becoming the defined standard for tournament play with players using the 2-3-1 format. With Umbra Clock Tower almost definitely becoming a legal addition, we have a dilemma. We are now totalling at 8 legal stages, which means we either need to go back to using the starter + counterpick format, or use either Delfino Plaza or Castle Siege as a 9th stage to allow for game 1 stage striking.

What are people's thoughts on the upcoming potential stage format.

Umbra Clock Tower boys!

With an 8 stagelist we can go back to 2 bans during counterpicking. And yes it's probably gonna be starter + counterpick format, it's the one people are the most used to.

G3 was already doing a starter+cp format. Pretty much everyone is.

Dreamland should have never replaced Lylat (wasnt lylat "fixed" the same patch we got dreamland?), but I suspect Umbra clock tower could make for a good 7th starter (I believe in full stage list striking, legal is legal).

Duck Hunt shouldn't be legal at all, the platform layout is god awful. Most people just won't commit to the pure evil of sitting in that tree, but that mess of high platforms just ruins the stage.

 

[Teshie U]

You can't turn off all the music on a stage. If you set the frequency for all songs to 0%, they will all be treated as 100%.

At PAX, MJG tried to CP to omega Windy Hill Zone, but was forced to go to regular FD.

Best you could do is simply turn ALL music off.

 

[Xeze]

You can't turn off all the music on a stage. If you set the frequency for all songs to 0%, they will all be treated as 100%.

At PAX, MJG tried to CP to omega Windy Hill Zone, but was forced to go to regular FD.

Best you could do is simply turn ALL music off.

That could work. Nobody likes hearing that boring Animal Crossing music anyways.

 

[FamilyTeam]

That could work. Nobody likes hearing that boring Animal Crossing music anyways.

Yes, preach, the music in Samshville is alright, but it gets massively annoying after you heard it for the 50th time in a tournament.
But then we'd miss out on other nice themes, like the ones in Battlefield and Final Destination.

 

[webbedspace]

Everyone assuming that Clock Tower will "obviously" be legal are setting themselves up for a fall, given we already know that there are transformations with A) solid platforms, and B) platforms underneath the main stage, and have seen that transformations last for 30 seconds - twice as long as Delfino. Competitive poison, alas.

 

[Tinkerer]

You can't turn off all the music on a stage. If you set the frequency for all songs to 0%, they will all be treated as 100%.

At PAX, MJG tried to CP to omega Windy Hill Zone, but was forced to go to regular FD.

Best you could do is simply turn ALL music off.

I'm pretty sure these aren't allowed because the nationals have an agreement beforehand on which music (i.e. stages) to use. But if you know beforehand Umbra Clock Tower is going to be used, that should be no problem. It's just something that needs to be done in advance.

The reason some of these aren't allowed is because Nintendo has licensed the music to be used in the game, but not the rights for streaming broadcast of that same music. I thought it mostly pertained the Sonic and Mother songs, though.

 

[Tinkerer]

The solid platforms as shown in the initial trailer look way too fleeting to be an actual problem, and "platforms underneath the main stage" are only off to the sides (the camera can't even go underneath the stage because the clock extends towards the screen), which has never been an issue. It looks like a slightly wobblier Town and City for the most part.

 

[wizrad]

Full list stage striking:
- Battlefield
- Omega (Yoshi's Island/Windy Hill Zone)
- Omega (Mario Circuit (Wii U)/Halberd/Norfair/Port Town Aero Drive/Lylat Cruise)
- Smashville
- Town & City
- Lylat Cruise
- Duck Hunt
- Dreamland 64
- Delfino Isle
- Caste Siege
- Kongo Jungle 64
- Wuhu Island
- Pokémon Stadium 2
- Jungle Hijinx
- Umbra Clock Tower

Most of you are probably wondering, "why two different Omega groups"? Well, those two groups are different versions of FD in every way possible. The first group is walled, allowing for wall jumps and wall sticking, and has grass, making characters slide less. The second is very thin, allowing for sharking and going under the stage, but doesn't have grass. Another reason is because the number of stages should be odd. And yes, I've thought about it, and I would like to see Jungle Hijinx in competitive play, at least to test it out before writing it off forever.

 

[jespoke]

And yes, I've thought about it, and I would like to see Jungle Hijinx in competitive play, at least to test it out before writing it off forever.

Your list is great and all, i feel like using that as my random stage set for friendlies, except for Jungle Hijinx. I wont even start discussing potential problems with the stage design. I just can't follow what is going on when fighting in the background. I start having problems sitting even just a meter further from the screen than usual, and Jungle Hijinx is much worse.

 

[lordvaati]

3DS List Variant(with Umbra) IMO:

Starter
FD/Omega
Battlefield
Dream land
Yoshi Island
Umbra(?)

CP
Duck Hunt
Ferox
Prism

 

[lordvaati]

Kongo Jungle is to Smash what Deoxys is to Pokemon-everyone tries to think it's legit at first then realize how bad it is and axe it immediately after.

let's not do that again please.

 

[Routa]

3DS List Variant(with Umbra) IMO:

Starter
FD/Omega
Battlefield
Dream land
Yoshi Island
Umbra(?)

CP
Duck Hunt
Ferox
Prism

Just replace DL64 with Prism Tower. I would also argue about Brinstar being a counterpick, but I'm fine with it being out of the common list. I can always gentleman to it, eh?

 

[Cornbrd]

#LegalizeHalberd2016

 

[jespoke]

I think Dreamland should not be on a 5 stage starter, but that list is prime for a 7 starter list with Prism and Ferox.
I would prioritize them like:

Battlefield
Yoshi's
FD
Prism
Umbra
Ferox
Dreamland

and either CP or not there Duck Hunt

#LegalizeHalberd2016

With ZSS, Meta Knight and Sheik all over top play already, i really don't feel like seeing Halberd legalized right now

 

[jespoke]

Moved it up, how do i delete this?

 

[Routa]

Moved it up, how do i delete this?

All you can do is to pray for a merciful mod.

Also if you ask me FLSS is the one true way to pick a stage in 3DS version.

And if we want to have other counterpicks then Brinstar and RBF are other good choices along with DH.

 

[Loota]

I addressed this. Being able to adapt to a stage offers no assurance that it can't bite you anyway. Players do not play on the stage's clock, as doing so is inefficient because the bigger threat is the sentient opponent. Hence, the stage hazards can be random relative to the player vs. player combat going on. A random Shy Guy car may not hit you, but it can force you back into a neutral game you had already won. That's punishing you for nothing.

Sorry I only picked this point out of your post but this part touches a matter that has been always bothering me with the series since Melee.

If a stage and it's hazards are predictable and non-overcentralizing, there is nothing inheritably bad in getting bit by the stage since it means that you should know exactly what's coming to you and how these situations might affect the match. If something bad happened to you because of the stage, basically you were either outplayed or you just didn't know the stage well enough. The random shy guy should obviously not hit you unless you got outplayed, but should also not come as surprise that it can disturb your advantaged state which you should have thought out when thinking if it was worth pursuing for at that point. That's not punishing the player, it's a natural outcome of a situation whose risks the player was (or should've been) aware of. That said, these kind of situations might actually be somewhat random to players that aren't familiar with the stage, but good thing we don't craft the stagelist for players that don't want to do their homework regarding stage knowledge.

This is an insanely hard concept to understand from the eyes of anyone other than the player weighing these decisions. Let's say someone is at 180% and manages to break his opponent's shield at 0% on PS2 while the stage is in middle of transformation to air phase, and then proceeding to combo him to upper blast zone all the way from 0% thanks to the transformation. It may initially seem like he simply got absurdly lucky and the stage is broken as hell, I wouldn't actually blame people for thinking it was just luck that made it happen. But what if that player told you that just before he knew which transformation was coming up, he was actually aiming to shrink the opponent's shield to a certain degree in case of the air transformation, and as soon as the air symbol lit up to confirm it, he went for risky shield breaking strats and succeeded, and got awarded a free chance for a zero-to-death combo tha would've otherwise been really hard to setup? That's some beautifully fair magic that does unfortunately often get labeled as lucky jank.

I hate to see this side of the game dying out but what can you do, it's not something that everyone should love and appreciate as much as I do. The stagelists have always been formed mostly by subjective reasons so I don't really expect the situation to change. After all, I'm always asked to back up my proposals with objective reasons that pretty much do not exist or even matter in this community if I were to actually present some.

 

[Das Koopa]

Sorry I only picked this point out of your post but this part touches a matter that has been always bothering me with the series since Melee.

If a stage and it's hazards are predictable and non-overcentralizing, there is nothing inheritably bad in getting bit by the stage since it means that you should know exactly what's coming to you and how these situations might affect the match. If something bad happened to you because of the stage, basically you were either outplayed or you just didn't know the stage well enough. The random shy guy should obviously not hit you unless you got outplayed, but should also not come as surprise that it can disturb your advantaged state which you should have thought out when thinking if it was worth pursuing for at that point. That's not punishing the player, it's a natural outcome of a situation whose risks the player was (or should've been) aware of. That said, these kind of situations might actually be somewhat random to players that aren't familiar with the stage, but good thing we don't craft the stagelist for players that don't want to do their homework regarding stage knowledge.
.

You getting hit is the logical extreme of the situation. If we're discussing a state where Player 1 is at an advantage but the cars would punish them if they pursued that advantage, it's either

A: Player 1 has effectively been soft-punished by forcing to move away from stage hazards forcing them to win another neutral situation or worse
B: Player 1 gets hard punished, which is more of their fault for not avoiding the hazard, but the point is that they were punished for otherwise optimal PvP gameplay

The issue is that the disruptive element exists because its mere existence negatively influences the idea of PvP based gameplay, and as I've explained, the game doesn't support a PvP+E format in a truly skill-based format. I've never said it's impossible for a skilled result to come from stage knowledge on banned stages, mind you, my issue is that the negatives outweigh the positives, both for the participants (thus the stages won't ever be picked) and for the TOs, where the stage skill present is dwarfed by disruptive elements.

basically the fact that you don't commit to an otherwise good scenario because of the stage hazard is effectively you getting punished for nothing with neither you nor your opponent having any input past the reaction to the hazard that has, at this point, cost you your position

Depending on the stage this can effectively be random because the players don't play on the stage's clock and can't because they'd get punished for it by the opponent

 

[Xeze]

And yes, I've thought about it, and I would like to see Jungle Hijinx in competitive play, at least to test it out before writing it off forever.

Jungle Hijinx is good if you love seeing timeouts on a regular basis. Otherwise it's a clean no.

 

[ぱみゅ]

God, merging threads made this one look messy.

But anyway, Koopa, I think we have a perspective problem.

A lot of people view gameplay as PvP+S, which means you are fighting an opponent character and you are thrown to a given stage, if you happen not to expect a dynamic element, you feel the stage interfered.
But on the other hand a lot of people view it as (PvP)/S, basically, the stage is already there and has elements that might or not change or be used for your advantage.

So that might be the reason why we can't even get to understand each other in this thread.

 

[wizrad]

Is it that bad? All I knew was that it was wonky but not outright destructive. I've never seen anyone give any thought to it.

 

[RIP|Merrick]

Here's what we're running for this upcoming weekly on Thursday, which will be perfect grounds for stage testing in tournament.

Starter

• Battlefield / Miiverse
• Dreamland 64
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Final Destination/Omega Stages
• Lylat Cruise
• Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

• Duck Hunt

Yes, I know it's hypocritical of me to go against what I believe in with the starter/counterpick distinction, but with an even amount of stages and nobody else in our scene looking to want to bring back the likes of Delfino or anything whatsoever, this is the best I can do for right now. Relegating Umbra to a counterpick will decrease the amount of time spent on it in competitive play which I want to avoid so early upon its release, and the overlay looks to be more unique of the other legal stages. I'd hate to do this to Duck Hunt, but with it being the "ban of the month" type stage everyone seems to be all up on for no reason but not wanting to get rid of it, I think this will be the best for it, at least for now.

Others I'm seeing suggest giving Lylat or Duck Hunt the axe, which I find just unacceptable. So this ought to do.

 

[FSLink]

Here's what we're running for this upcoming weekly on Thursday, which will be perfect grounds for stage testing in tournament.

Starter

• Battlefield / Miiverse
• Dreamland 64
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Final Destination/Omega Stages
• Lylat Cruise
• Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

• Duck Hunt

Yes, I know it's hypocritical of me to go against what I believe in with the starter/counterpick distinction, but with an even amount of stages and nobody else in our scene looking to want to bring back the likes of Delfino or anything whatsoever, this is the best I can do for right now. Relegating Umbra to a counterpick will decrease the amount of time spent on it in competitive play which I want to avoid so early upon its release, and the overlay looks to be more unique of the other legal stages. I'd hate to do this to Duck Hunt, but with it being the "ban of the month" type stage everyone seems to be all up on for no reason but not wanting to get rid of it, I think this will be the best for it, at least for now.

Others I'm seeing suggest giving Lylat or Duck Hunt the axe, which I find just unacceptable. So this ought to do.

This is basically what I want to propose to my community with Kongo Jungle being on there as well for a Counterpick in Doubles. I just really want a bigger stage list than 5, especially with most communities allowing both Battlefield and Dreamland 64. Having only one stage ban due to the smaller starter set really sucks when having both BF and DL on the same stage list. Plus Umbra, like you said, looks like it'll have a very unique layout compared to the other starters.

 

[Jams.]

Here's what we're running for this upcoming weekly on Thursday, which will be perfect grounds for stage testing in tournament.

Starter

• Battlefield / Miiverse
• Dreamland 64
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Final Destination/Omega Stages
• Lylat Cruise
• Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

• Duck Hunt

Yes, I know it's hypocritical of me to go against what I believe in with the starter/counterpick distinction, but with an even amount of stages and nobody else in our scene looking to want to bring back the likes of Delfino or anything whatsoever, this is the best I can do for right now. Relegating Umbra to a counterpick will decrease the amount of time spent on it in competitive play which I want to avoid so early upon its release, and the overlay looks to be more unique of the other legal stages. I'd hate to do this to Duck Hunt, but with it being the "ban of the month" type stage everyone seems to be all up on for no reason but not wanting to get rid of it, I think this will be the best for it, at least for now.

Others I'm seeing suggest giving Lylat or Duck Hunt the axe, which I find just unacceptable. So this ought to do.

I like it. I'm glad you're allowing people to experiment with Umbra Clock Tower early on in a competitive setting to determine its viability.

Unfortunately, 8 legal stages does kill the idea of FLSS. I think Castle Siege is the best stage to legalize in this situation, because the issues with the second transformation can be avoided with smart (if uninteresting) play, whereas Delfino ceiling shenanigans have less counterplay. Some of the Delfino transformations are also pretty poor and force a stalemate or high risk high reward scenario. Castle Siege is also good for occupying the niche of an anti-zoner stage.

I honestly believe that it's much more likely for Duck Hunt to get the axe however if Umbra Clock Tower proves to be a good stage and people want to cut down to 7. That stage is gaining a lot of haters, both locally in my scene and on Twitter.

 

[Xeze]

Here's what we're running for this upcoming weekly on Thursday, which will be perfect grounds for stage testing in tournament.

Starter

• Battlefield / Miiverse
• Dreamland 64
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Final Destination/Omega Stages
• Lylat Cruise
• Umbra Clock Tower

Counterpick

• Duck Hunt

I like this stagelist, altough I have a personal preference of 5 starters + counterpicks. But it's the "perfect" stagelist for Smash 4 in my opinion.
It's too bad Duck Hunt and even Lylat are getting so much hate now.

 

[LanceKing2200]

What if we just get rid of Dreamland on the grounds of being too similar to BF? It doesn't make much sense to move DL to counterpick when BF is a clear starter, but if we get rid of it altogether, then we can add Clock Tower as a starter, or as a counterpick (moving Lylat to starter), and keep our odd number of stages.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

What if we just get rid of Dreamland on the grounds of being too similar to BF? It doesn't make much sense to move DL to counterpick when BF is a clear starter, but if we get rid of it altogether, then we can add Clock Tower as a starter, or as a counterpick (moving Lylat to starter), and keep our odd number of stages.

Ban Dreamland? You probably have a better chance of getting Great Cave Offensive legal compared to banning that stage. My school still has Miiverse and BF as seperate starters for christ's sake.

But, aside from that, seeing how some people are misinformation about stages, maybe we should try to create some sort of Smash 4 Stage Legality manifesto, where we debunk common arguments against stages and correct rumors and misinformation, then just try to get it out there, so TO's and players have an easy to access document to use when talking about stages.

 

[Yikarur]

Every smart ruleset uses Lylat as starte over Dreamland.
Dreamland as starter is overcentralizing the starter list. The purpose of a starter list is to guarantee a fair game 1 and with Dreamland this is no longer possible.

Umbra Clock Tower so Town & City 2.0 with even longer omega phases. Will obviously legal but I don't like too many similar stages.

 

[jespoke]

Every smart ruleset uses Lylat as starte over Dreamland.
Dreamland as starter is overcentralizing the starter list. The purpose of a starter list is to guarantee a fair game 1 and with Dreamland this is no longer possible.

Umbra Clock Tower so Town & City 2.0 with even longer omega phases. Will obviously legal but I don't like too many similar stages.

I just hope it has a noticeably higher ceiling than Town and City so it can at least be the "Battlefield" to Town and City's "Dreamland". And maybe different platform height will be relevant to some characters.

 

[wizrad]

I thought Dreamland 64 had identical blast zones to Battlefield.

 

[Yikarur]

Battlefield has the largest blastzones.

 

[Eugene Wang]

Umbra clock tower is pretty clearly a starter. The platforms are sparse, the hypothetical caves of life will probably turn out to be fleeting and near-nonexistent in practice, and if you think the moving platforms are unfair, you clearly haven't SD'd on a platform on Town and City.

Or maybe that's just me wanting to have a third option to Lylat Cruise and Dreamland for the fifth starter stage.

 

[S_B]

Is it that bad? All I knew was that it was wonky but not outright destructive. I've never seen anyone give any thought to it.

There's two key problems with it:

1. You can barrel loop in some cases. Characters that want to run out the clock will do this and it will be horrible to watch and deal with.

2. Tournaments are generally always going to have inconsistently-sized TVs since even regionals rely upon people bringing TVs with their setups. Hijinx being legal means you'll be spending time either squinting to see what's happening on small TVs and/or having to lean in much closer. God forbid you have to play doubles on hijinx with a small TV.

The other stages like Kongo and Pilotwings have similar problems. Pilotwings gives players a place to camp in the engines of the plane. Kongo is very good for allowing a faster character to circle-camp a slower one.

TBH, I question whether or not DH should be legal for somewhat similar reasons. A LM player is basically screwed if someone decides to camp on top of the tree because the LM will need to burn their up+B to reach any of those platforms, after which the camper could simply knock them off of the platform.

Also, I've seen the dog popping up mess people up badly on more than one occasion.

I'd love to see a universal adoption of a few custom stages, but the logistics for such a thing are difficult to pull off.