Stage Information Database and Q&A

[ぱみゅ]

There's a reason I currently have the last say in all 3 top threads in this board.

I could be wrong or have misread something, but iirc, the last word is something like "in optimal conditions, people could how to play the stage effectively, and then it might be suitable for competition even considering its random factor. But nobody wants to do so at a tournament set, so it is banned."



btw, in some friendlies today we played Pictochat.
Some Falco vs DDD(me).
Ground Spikes comes out (nobody got hurt at that moment), both at pretty high damages. Falco rushes a Dair and I roll away from it (I was just in the wall). I wanted to punish his lag with Utilt (and take his stock), but head got big enough to get hit by the spikes before that and I got killed.
That was dumb, but a valuable lesson.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

While the "people can't be ****ed learning it" is part of the reason I don't support the stage, I also feel strongly about how it randomly changes positional advantages to a degree unmatched by any other legal stage (this is indisputable).

 

[Arcansi]

I could be wrong or have misread something, but iirc, the last word is something like "in optimal conditions, people could how to play the stage effectively, and then it might be suitable for competition even considering its random factor. But nobody wants to do so at a tournament set, so it is banned."

Basically, most people are scrubs, yeah.

While the "people can't be ****ed learning it" is part of the reason I don't support the stage, I also feel strongly about how it randomly changes positional advantages to a degree unmatched by any other legal stage (this is indisputable).

1. Why is this an acceptable reason? Is it acceptable for people to be scrubs, and should we be changing it, especially based on the fact that our ruleset wants people to not be scrubs in the first place.

2. Not enough playdata on the stage to verify this, along with the fact that it's a CP and that reason is simply a reason to not CP it for yourself.

Player-induced randomness isn't a bad thing, as defined by our ruleset.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1. Why is this an acceptable reason? Is it acceptable for people to be scrubs, and should we be changing it, especially based on the fact that our ruleset wants people to not be scrubs in the first place.

So this is how people used to feel arguing with me before I went to tournaments.

I'd like to apologize, theunabletable.

It isn't an acceptable reason in theory, but the game has been out for half a decade now with the stage legal in many different areas... But people still don't know how to play on it to minimize randomness... Unless you think that keeping the stage legal even longer will change that, there really is no point.

Its scrubby, yes. But its better to be scrubby than impractical.

2. Not enough playdata on the stage to verify this, along with the fact that it's a CP and that reason is simply a reason to not CP it for yourself.

You don't need play data to realize that nearly every single time the stage changes, the positions of the players will either become better or worse randomly. Its not rocket science.

Worse players can CP it against me and win via randomness. That is the problem with these types of stages, and the reason WarioWare is banned.

Player-induced randomness isn't a bad thing, as defined by our ruleset.

...wut?

 

[Arcansi]

It isn't an acceptable reason in theory, but the game has been out for half a decade now with the stage legal in many different areas... But people still don't know how to play on it to minimize randomness... Unless you think that keeping the stage legal even longer will change that, there really is no point.

Its scrubby, yes. But its better to be scrubby than impractical.

Ofc I think keeping the stage legal longer will change that.

You don't need play data to realize that nearly every single time the stage changes, the positions of the players will either become better or worse randomly. Its not rocket science.

Need play data to know if it's significant at all, most of the time. Sometimes it's obvious, most of the time it isn't.

Worse players can CP it against me and win via randomness. That is the problem with these types of stages, and the reason WarioWare is banned.

Worse players can CP YI and win by randomness, too.

...wut?

If a player chooses to have the randomness happen, it has been said by many people to be more legit.

This is one of the reasons that peach can be argued to not validate pictochat, and although it's wrong, the reasoning seems to exist. It isn't wrong because the reasoning is wrong, though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Ofc I think keeping the stage legal longer will change that.

K. I don't, thats all there is to it then aha

Need play data to know if it's significant at all, most of the time. Sometimes it's obvious, most of the time it isn't.

Fair enough.

Worse players can CP YI and win by randomness, too.

I've never had the outcome of a match be determined by YI any time I have ever played on it, and videos of it happening are scarce.

PictoChat, on the other hand...

If a player chooses to have the randomness happen, it has been said by many people to be more legit.

This is one of the reasons that peach can be argued to not validate pictochat, and although it's wrong, the reasoning seems to exist. It isn't wrong because the reasoning is wrong, though.

Well with Peach her randomness has less of an impact on the game's result because the chance of her pulling a stitch/beam/etc... is quite low and when she does, it is easy to react to.

I don't see any reason for randomness to be okay if its player initiated, ALL randomness is player initiated if we look at it that way (Didn't want WarioWare to screw you over? Shouldn't have picked it).

 

[Arcansi]

K. I don't, thats all there is to it then aha

Fair enough. Do you somehow seem to think players wouldn't be in an uprise, complain about what happened, get told how to play on it correctly, try it and see that it works?

Or what?

I've never had the outcome of a match be determined by YI any time I have ever played on it, and videos of it happening are scarce.

PictoChat, on the other hand...

Ever had a match be determined by peach pulling a death turnip/bomb/lazer/etc?

Or a G&W judgement?

Or Luigi's Misfire?

Tripping?

Etc.

It should be noted that even one interference from YI ususally 'decides the match' as the match would have been radically different if that did not happen. This is assuming the player who benefitted from the interference won.

Well with Peach her randomness has less of an impact on the game's result because the chance of her pulling a stitch/beam/etc... is quite low and when she does, it is easy to react to.

By this notion, the chance of a transformation screwing you over if you don't want it to is EXTREMELY low, if not 0%.

And when it does, you usually don't lose a stock. Also, is it possible to tell a stich is a stich before it is thrown?

I don't see any reason for randomness to be okay if its player initiated, ALL randomness is player initiated if we look at it that way (Didn't want WarioWare to screw you over? Shouldn't have picked it).

This is legit.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Fair enough. Do you somehow seem to think players wouldn't be in an uprise, complain about what happened, get told how to play on it correctly, try it and see that it works?

Or what?

Yeah, pretty much. If it came back I think players would *****, still not bother to learn it, get CP'd there and lose badly due to them handling the stage badly, ***** more and we'll be right back where we started.

Ever had a match be determined by peach pulling a death turnip/bomb/lazer/etc?

Or a G&W judgement?

Or Luigi's Misfire?

Tripping?

Etc.

It should be noted that even one interference from YI ususally 'decides the match' as the match would have been radically different if that did not happen. This is assuming the player who benefitted from the interference won.

I've had a match been determined (at least in part) by Peach's pulls, and several times by tripping. Never by those other things though, and never by YI:B.

I've been saved by and had my opponent's saved by the platform plenty of times, but whenever I knock someone off I always anticipate the platform coming up and KO them anyway if it does, my opponents do the same to me.

By this notion, the chance of a transformation screwing you over if you don't want it to is EXTREMELY low, if not 0%.

And when it does, you usually don't lose a stock.

I'd agree, transformations individually screwing you over is pretty rare.

The day I started having a problem with this stage was one grand finals set (Diddy vs. MK) where basically every time the stage changed, everything was reset. Walls and hazards constantly spawned in the way of me and my opponent, often during pivotal moments like recovery or in the middle of juggles.

Straight after this, Ghost and I moved to get PictoChat banned in our state and we haven't looked back since.

Also, is it possible to tell a stich is a stich before it is thrown

If you're paying attention, yep. Also, a lot of Peach players try and face in such a way that you can't see the turnips face when they have a stitch.

 

[Arcansi]

sorry for late response, 100+km winds where I live yesterday morning = no power. I'm actually still out of power and at school atm.

Yeah, pretty much. If it came back I think players would *****, still not bother to learn it, get CP'd there and lose badly due to them handling the stage badly, ***** more and we'll be right back where we started.

Wouldn't at the part of them complaining, we have an explanation that makes sense and works, therefore making it kinda like any Ness/Lucas/DK player and infinites?

I mean, we don't seem to have a problem with them....

I've had a match been determined (at least in part) by Peach's pulls, and several times by tripping. Never by those other things though, and never by YI:B.

I think your underestimating the ghosts. Even as a platform for standing on, they can usually help decide a game.

Also, DDD's Gordos.

I've been saved by and had my opponent's saved by the platform plenty of times, but whenever I knock someone off I always anticipate the platform coming up and KO them anyway if it does, my opponents do the same to me.

You/your opponents characters must be lucky to have the same gimps work wether the platform comes up or not, at pretty much the same guarantee.

That or your lying/can't recover if saved by the platform.

I'd agree, transformations individually screwing you over is pretty rare.

The day I started having a problem with this stage was one grand finals set (Diddy vs. MK) where basically every time the stage changed, everything was reset. Walls and hazards constantly spawned in the way of me and my opponent, often during pivotal moments like recovery or in the middle of juggles.

Straight after this, Ghost and I moved to get PictoChat banned in our state and we haven't looked back since.

Huge anecotal evidence. You and I both know that things like these aren't even really worth mentioning unless they represent something you haven't said. Peach/DDD vs X(espicially Peach/DDD) on YI:B can do FAR worse.

The fact that you look at this stage as somehow worse then random bombs/gordos/anything else either needs proof to back it up or your just being biased at this point.

No Offence.

If you're paying attention, yep. Also, a lot of Peach players try and face in such a way that you can't see the turnips face when they have a stitch.

Good to know.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Gordos, bombs, etc... Don't affect results as much as Pictochat because you can react to them before they hit you.

Yoshi's Island doesn't affect results as much as Picto because the player on-stage can always prepare for the platform and capitalize upon it, the same as any landing.

 

[Arcansi]

Gordos, bombs, etc... Don't affect results as much as Pictochat because you can react to them before they hit you.

You should never get hit by a pictochat hazard if you are playing correctly & do not want too.

It should be noted that the THREAT of peach holding a bomb is detrimental to proper gameplay.

You have to 100% of the time be ready to die. It's like a longer ranged safer version of G&W's bucket, but what did you do to deserve it? You let her press down+b.

Yoshi's Island doesn't affect results as much as Picto because the player on-stage can always prepare for the platform and capitalize upon it, the same as any landing.

Why is on-stage play more legit in any way then off-stage play, espicially when off-stage play has been proven to be better to give you a chance to react to the randomness?

Also, how do you prepare it if you don't know what side it'll be on?

EDIT: Can I assume this means you agree with me on how people would act/we could react if it picto was legal?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You should never get hit by a pictochat hazard if you are playing correctly & do not want too.

The "safe zone" only exists when your opponent doesn't exist.

It should be noted that the THREAT of peach holding a bomb is detrimental to proper gameplay.

You have to 100% of the time be ready to die. It's like a longer ranged safer version of G&W's bucket, but what did you do to deserve it? You let her press down+b.

Fair enough, I concede that Peach's down-b is worse, and therefore, Picto should be legal.

Why is on-stage play more legit in any way then off-stage play, espicially when off-stage play has been proven to be better to give you a chance to react to the randomness?

What on earth are you talking about?

Also, how do you prepare it if you don't know what side it'll be on?

Unless you're trying to edge-guard your opponent on both sides of the stage at once, only one side will matter.

EDIT: Can I assume this means you agree with me on how people would act/we could react if it picto was legal?

No.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The "safe zone" only exists when your opponent doesn't exist.

A small side note here, the "safety zone" is there, and is your task to try to stay on it while the stage is blank.
Your opponent will obviously try to keep you out of it, as well as you try to keep him/her out.

As long as nobody wants to take the risk to be thrown off the "safe zone", or the risk to give the opponent a random high reward, no player should be trying to force a battle with the stage blank.
It is a legit strategy to force that battle and rewards, but be aware that you most likely won't get favoured of all of them.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So it would seem that I've been turned pro-Picto again by the same arguments.

And the argument that changed me back to anti-Picto was disproven.

So I don't think I'll be changing my mind again.

 

[WindMajor]

You know you missed me.

 

[Arcansi]

I know I missed picto.

Grim, get picto legal (or push for it) in your state (which state is this) if you can.

I want vids like, yesterday. My area isn't...the most reliable. (no offence)

EDIT: Is it possible picto could be the pioneer for playstyle-based cping?

I mean, you cp it against an aggressive person to give you free resets every little bit, with the threat of a whole ton of things happening to the aggressor if they don't.

This is assuming you plank (or some equivalent) during the transform time, if they approach you.

It actually seems really legit.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I'd like to play on it a bit before I try for legality in South Australia, especially since I was the one who suggested the ban in the first place.

We really don't care too much about having a competitive ruleset here anyway, our community is very tightly-knit and we don't really play on stages like Brinstar or PS2 a lot anyway, even though they are legal. Its just a gentleman's clause of sorts.

 

[Arcansi]

Should have expected something like that...

Eh, atleast it'll prepare me for everyone else that should happen to understand.

 

[T-block]

i should just have this permanently copied to my clipboard

This is an inaccurate evaluation of the metagame on Pictochat. Even if both players give the stage all the respect it deserves, top level play does not involve both characters vying for control over the "safe zone".

The "safe zone" idea is an egregious oversimplification of the Pictochat dynamic. I only need one point to prove this: very few characters (Pit, Fox, Falco) can apply enough pressure from the "safe zone" for it to be considered overly advantageous to have control over it. Instead, for most matchups, when in neutral positions, controlling the safe zone is only trivially advantageous. This means that there's enough of a difference so that if given the choice, one would obviously choose the safe zone, but in the end, the difference is negligible. In other words, in most matchups, being outside of the safe zone in itself does not put you in any relevant level of danger, because in neutral positions, since there is insufficient additional pressure from your opponent, it is perfectly reasonable to expect the player to be able to dodge hazards on reaction, as hitboxes do not become active until the full drawing has appeared. Because most characters cannot apply enough pressure to take advantage of being in the safe zone, control of the safe zone or lack thereof is not the main motivator for an approach - it is still the case that the one who is pressured to approach is the one who does not have the lead.

In summary, if player A does not have the lead but has control over the safe zone, player B is still not encouraged to approach. Conversely, player A will have to leave the safe zone in order to pressure player B in an attempt to regain the lead. This is generally something he is willing to do, because the motivation from not having the lead trumps the motivation to keep the safe zone. Therefore, the existence of a zone where hazards do not immediately spawn is largely irrelevant to the overarching dynamic of the match. Those characters who are able to apply pressure from the safe zone are also able to apply that pressure from some given spot on Final Destination, so again, it is not control over a safe zone that is forcing approaches.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Got one for Mario Bros?

 

[T-block]

no because even i can't hope to understand the massive competitive depth that is mario bros

 

[Bobwithlobsters]

On pictochat For at least the diagonal line doesn't the hit box become active before the line is drawn?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yep.

A lot of them do.

 

[WindMajor]

Technically it's not a hitbox that comes out cause there's no box hitting you, just a wall blocking your path.

Spoiler

/semantics

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Technically, hitboxes aren't even box shaped. They are circles.

 

[T-block]

spheres actually. brawl is played in a 3D environment.

@bobwithlobsters: as twinkie said, when i say stage hitboxes i refer to entities that can actually cause damage. you are correct that diagonal line (among others... side spikes for example) are impassable before they are drawn. but my description still applies, since i'm really only talking about neutral positions, where such drawings don't really affect play.

 

[Arcansi]

spheres actually. brawl is played in a 3D environment.

Rectangular Prisms. You can be airdodging and you don't land any lower down, despite being farther away from the center of the sphere.

@bobwithlobsters: as twinkie said, when i say stage hitboxes i refer to entities that can actually cause damage. you are correct that diagonal line (among others... side spikes for example) are impassable before they are drawn. but my description still applies, since i'm really only talking about neutral positions, where such drawings don't really affect play.

Isn't this false due to the goal of neutral play to be able to maneuver yourself into a position where you can hit your opponent but they cannot hit you, and you are safe?

Because, drawings definitely interfere with this.

 

[WindMajor]

[collapse="Not rectangular Prisms"]

[/collapse]

It looks like they are actually circles, but they have that "Always Look Forward" thing that gives it the illusion that it's a sphere.

 

[Arcansi]

[collapse="Not rectangular Prisms"]

[/collapse]

It looks like they are actually circles, but they have that "Always Look Forward" thing that gives it the illusion that it's a sphere.

I was talking about platforms, not hitboxes. Although I would like to see the hitboxes of picto drawn like that too.

NOTE: I understand that I probably didn't make it clear I was talking about platforms. My bad.

EDIT: Wouldn't this make them circular prisms? I mean, if they were 2 dimensional circles DDD would be a lot more invulnerable during his spotdodge then he is to most hazards.

 

[T-block]

what am i even reading

yeah i was talking about hitboxes, not platforms or wherever the **** that came from

"circular prisms" are cylinders, and no hitboxes are actually cylinders. they are spheres. if you were to move the camera around you would see hitboxes are not confined to a particular plane.

about the solid drawings... the point was that any detrimental effects from the drawings cannot arise from neutral positions. the fact that drawings are solid before any player can know they are there does not change the fact that play on pictochat does not centre around controlling the bottom left of the stage.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Just passin' by to show my green name.

Also, Premium skins are awesome.


How are you doin', Brawl Stage Boards people?

 

[Arcansi]

Just passin' by to show my green name.

Also, Premium skins are awesome.


How are you doin', Brawl Stage Boards people?

No one can contest me, but in typical smash boards fashion, no one seems to be able to realize that this also means they should convert, logically. Or doesn't want competition.

But such is life.

 

[BSP]

I'll keep being illogical

 

[WindMajor]

A new announcement is up regarding this forum. You guys should go check it out.

The changes will be happening gradually within the next couple of days.

 

[-LzR-]

Just passin' by to show my green name.

Also, Premium skins are awesome.


How are you doin', Brawl Stage Boards people?

Damn that reminds me my premium ran out around January. Gotta get it back soon! Gotta love that green name

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I want to get auto-premium when I reach 10000 posts, that'd be niiiicee~

 

[WindMajor]

Premium doesn't interest me anymore.

 

[ぱみゅ]

I only like the skins.
I can't think of a good title thingy and I have no other privileges I am interested in or I think is worth noticing...

So yeah, Premium's being nothing special so far.



Also, that notice is actually great, Twinkie. A better organized board is a better place overall.
I hope that helps make less useless threads...

 

[Raziek]

But will it blend?

 

[BSP]

The disco room is a lot of fun imo