Stage Information Database and Q&A

[-LzR-]

If you play a character who sucks it's your own "fault".
I don't think a better system exists either.

 

[WindMajor]

EDIT: Changed my mind again.

@Twinkie
With a normal counter-pick, the psychological advantage is present but it is won on the neutral, which is much better than winning psychological advantage on a biased stage.

Well for one, this:

Or people could learn to handle pressure and not let it affect them.

We shouldn't baby players so that they can handle the pressure better. Part of being a competitive player is to learn how to deal with pressure that it brings. It's a required skill.

Second, even if you lost Round 1 on the other person's counterpick, you still have the upperhand with your counterpick on Round 2, and you can fairly dispute the tie in Round 3. In other words, the losing player still has hope, which is something that he doesn't have in our stage selection system.

Also, the winning player still has quite the journey to win. Even though he won Round 1, he still has to play Round 2 on disadvantaged territory, which adds pressure because if he loses, it's 1-1, which means no more playing around now, this is it, here comes the pressure. And look, the pressure is right where it belongs and the territory is decided fairly.

The fact that the psychological advantage is won on in the first match by biased means shouldn't matter because the psychological battle isn't over yet, and the person with the advantage on the first match won't have a pleasant outlook for the set until they either win on disadvantaged territory or get on even grounds.

 

[Ghostbone]

Sounds fine to me. Unless someone has a better option?

I still think we should do double blind picks every game.

Idk I think it might increase character viability as it makes can make counter-picking your opponent unsafe.
Also if you do want to counter-pick them you have to then predict which character they will use.
And they can do the same thing back to you I guess.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I already mentioned the problem with that before. It turns into an advantage guessing game. May I suggest rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock?

Really though, I think we are over-estimating how many players actually do a double blind pick.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

I never was actually, just saying when it does happen it can lead to random results when you don't know the opponent.

Most still do what I do, stick out the character not really caring and dealing with the good and the bad.

Granted this leads to everyone and there mom trying to go DDD on me thinking it's easy when I tend to only lose to people who actually know the match-up and DDD, ie the mains of him.

 

[ngfc_0]

@Twinkie, when we don't know our adversary's play stile we need the first game to adapt. Do you think its the same playing the "adaptation game" in an (dis)advantaged field as in a neutral one?

 

[Ghostbone]

I already mentioned the problem with that before. It turns into an advantage guessing game. May I suggest rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock?

Really though, I think we are over-estimating how many players actually do a double blind pick.

That's true, most people would probably ignore it. Though the people who would ignore it probably wouldn't be bothered with character counter-picking anyway.
But the biggest problem would be against players you don't know.....

I'd be fine with character counter-picking if it wasn't for MK anyway.

 

[Life]

Think I'll post this here so I can refer to it in the future.

Incom's Hybrid Counterpick system:

Spoiler

Works best with a large stagelist.

Players select characters for Game 1. Double-blind pick may be requested. If a double-blind is requested, characters are revealed before striking stages.

Players determine who strikes first. If players cannot come to an agreement on their own, RPS is recommended, but other methods such as a coin flip or GnW hammer battle are also acceptable. Winner may choose to select a controller port first, or strike stages first.

Players strike part of the legal stagelist. The exact number of stages struck should be determined by the TO as a part of the ruleset, based on the number of stages being used; roughly one-third to one-half of the list is recommended.

Players then select their counterpicks for the set. One for Bo3, two for Bo5, etc.

Players strike remaining stages until one remains.

Game 1 is played on this stage.

For games 2 and on, the loser selects one of the stages he chose as a counterpick during striking. Then, both players have the option to redo character selection.

Continue playing until the winner of the set emerges.

Designed to get the most neutral starting stage possible, like a full-list strike, while still allowing for the stage variety of a classic counterpick system. Also, makes "Surprise, Falco! I have pocket ICs for your FD!" a little less effective.

Feel free to poke holes in it.

 

[WindMajor]

@Twinkie, when we don't know our adversary's play stile we need the first game to adapt. Do you think its the same playing the "adaptation game" in an (dis)advantaged field as in a neutral one?

Yes, because you can adapt and figure out patterns for your opponent on all the legal stages. Even though some of the stages may seem ridiculous, none of them are ridiculous enough to make adapting and pattern reading impossible, or even moderately difficult.

Plus, even if you're in disadvantaged terrain the first time, you still get that guaranteed 2nd game that's in your advantage. Everything you learned from the first round can be applied to the 2nd round, and in a stage that's to your advantage!

 

[-LzR-]

I'll make that funny thing some of you already did cuz I can.

-LzR-
Name: Alex
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Stance: Really liberal, BPC fan
Tier: WTF is this?
Main: MK
Seconds: IC, Puff, Rob
Favorite stages: Brinstar, Pictochat, Frigate
Other. Tournament organizer

Amidoingitrite D:

 

[WindMajor]

IdunochecktheOPman D:

So where are Jack Kieser and Raziek?

Spoiler

inb4namesearch

 

[sunshade]

So unrelated to brawl but related to stages, I visited my mothers today and brought my old gamecube back home. (I gave my Wii to my younger brother so I have not had one for nearly a year now)

I just started playing this game I used to dig back in the day called custom robo. It an action rpg in a where you build a custom robot out of 5 different parts (robot itself, its gun, its bomb, its third weapon called a pod, and its boots). The game has close to 50 stages you can play on and as soon as I noticed this I immediately began to search for ways to abuse stages.

I think my love of stage discussion may have ruined my ability to enjoy video games with many playable arenas D:

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Lol.

I do the same thing in Metroid Prime Hunters when I play.

This topic I'm about to bring up is a bit off-topic for this board, but it's impossible to have an intelligent conversation about stage legality anywhere else, so...:

How do people feel about Melee stage lists? The Melee community is very conservative and I have been as well until recently, but I'm starting to think we could have a lot more stages legal :/

 

[sunshade]

Which stages in particular did you think should be legal?

(Where is the MBR stage list located?)

 

[Grim Tuesday]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8981808&postcount=1 = MBR Stage List

These are the ones that catch my eye:
Jungle Japes - Getting gimped by the water *may* be over-powered, though I'm not convinced.

Kongo Jungle - It's banned for camping the rock in the bottom right, but it seems like too much of a "high risk-high reward" situation to be an issue, I think.

Mute City - Only issue with it is that Jigglypuff and Peach are good on it, but this balances out with enough stage bans/other counter-pick stages.

Green Greens - I have a feeling the bomb blocks are too strong for Melee, but more testing is required.

Poke Floats - Fox gets a large advantage against Peach here, that's about it :/

Kingdom II - I don't think camping the walk-off is powerful enough to warrant a ban in Melee unless Fox can wave-shine people to death consistently (which I don't think is an issue here).

Maybe Kingdom and Fourside as well, I don't have much experience with them though.

 

[-LzR-]

Melee stagelist is a sad thing to watch. In Finland, it's only BF, FD, FoD, Dreamland and YI, also PS1 for a starter.

It's just sad, players with stage abilities are hindered badly.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

It's like that everywhere -LzR-

I used to think that was the way to go until I had a recent epiphany "Why the hell should I be treating Melee differently to Brawl?"

 

[Ghostbone]

Onett's another borderline stage I guess.

Fourside is just too dam big, and wall jump stalling.....and walls

Kingdom II is just awkward to play on I guess, the walk-offs and birdo don't help.

Isn't link over-powered on the rock on Kongo though?

Up-b OF DEATH

I'm pretty sure the blocks are weaker on Green Greens....well in comparison to killing moves in melee vs brawl, they probably kill earlier than in brawl but because everyone dies faster in melee it might be balanced out....
There's also the problem of air-dodging past them doesn't work, though most characters can probably jump over the gap fast enough anyway.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yeah, Onett is borderline.

Your right about Fourside though. While wall-jump stalling can be solved with a simple rule addition, there is the issue of size and walls.

I don't think the walk-off is that bad on Kingdom II. Fox can't just land one shine and get a kill because of it as long as you don't hang around the top areas stupidly, and defensive gameplay isn't as strong in Melee, so walk-off camping pretty much becomes high risk-high reward, which IS balanced (although different to what we are used to in Melee, aside from Rest).

The rock is high risk-high reward as well.

 

[-LzR-]

Welcome to Finland, the land of liberal ruleset! :D

Oh and Melee has only gone downhill recently, less and less stages. There are like 5 Battlefields and one FD. Talk about dumb stages.
And stages are counterpicks for certain characters totally based on the size of the blastzones.
LAAAMMEEEEE.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

What do people think of Kingdom I?

 

[Ghostbone]

lol that's a good point.

Can't complain about high risk high reward with a move like rest in the game.


Edit:
Ewwwww Kingdom 1.

It's basically the Luigi's mansion of Melee.

Except you don't really have time to destroy it.

 

[WindMajor]

I remember back in the day seeing Ripple try to argue with Melee players about keeping Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar legal, but to barely any effect. I would've helped, but I was, of course, just being a simple lurker.

Does anyone have the full list of stages + the list of legal stages? I'd like to see how much they ban.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

It's melee. **** 'em.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Legal:
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Battlefield
Dream Land (N64)
Final Destination
Pokemon Stadium
Brinstar
Kongo Jungle (N64)
Rainbow Cruise

Borderline:
Poké Floats
Mute City
Corneria

Banned:
Jungle Japes
Kongo Jungle
Onett
Green Greens
Brinstar Depths
Flat Zone
Great Bay
Icicle Mountain
Hyrule Temple
Yoshi's Island (Pipes)
Yoshi's Island (N64)
Venom
Fourside
Princess Peach's Castle
Mushroom Kingdom I
Big Blue
Mushroom Kingdom II

 

[-LzR-]

Your stagelist? Or is that what your area uses?

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That is what is commonly used.

My area doesn't have Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Kongo Jungle or any of the borderline/banned stages.

EDIT: This is intentional btw. I'm the TO in my state and I'm still trying to expand the scene. I don't want good players to think my tourney is a joke for having janky stages. Better safe than sorry, for now.

 

[-LzR-]

People generally agree with my stages, like Green Greens and such.

Anyways, you guys have a better Melee stagelist than we do, ours is kinda embarrassing :S

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Wow, I didn't think it could get any more limited than my state's.

 

[Ghostbone]

Yea our area's

Starter
Final Destination
Battlefield
Yoshi's Story
Fountain of Dreams
Dream Land

Counter-pick
Pokemon Stadium

I swear, eventually the melee community is going to whine about the wind and size of Dream Land, the transformations on Pokemon Stadium, the moving platforms on Fountain of Dreams, and Randall on Yoshi's Story.

Then we'll be stuck with FD and BF as the only legal stages -_-

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I wouldn't mind FD being the only stage.

Spoiler

iceclimbers

 

[-LzR-]

Melee already is FD and BF as the only legal stages, there are just 5 Battlefields legal. Talk about those "good and interesting" Melee stages.

 

[Ghostbone]

Melee already is FD and BF as the only legal stages, there are just 5 Battlefields legal. Talk about those "good and interesting" Melee stages.

lol I know.

It's like you said the only important counter-pick quality is the size of the blast zones :/

I want Brinstar and Mute City back >.>

 

[-LzR-]

I am gonna CP you to YS because there blastzone is small. Talk about a damn strong counterpick guys. It's like if wasn't there at all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The common reason for CP'ing to Yoshi's Story is normally for the small stage size, which is good for safe pressuring by characters like Marth, Ganondorf, etc..., rather than blast-zones, but I know what you're saying

 

[sunshade]

I hope you don't mind Grim but I am going to stop making legitimate arguments in your AiB thread and troll darknid/falln instead.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Go ahead, it'll be locked soon though.

 

[Life]

Soo tempted to make an AIB account, SS that post and link it, but too lazy and nice.

I don't play Melee competitively (as of now anyways, I might start at some nebulous distant point in the future) and only see their boards because I camp the New Posts button, but from what I understand at least Mute City should be legal, it was banned because it was too strong a CP for Peach who isn't even Top 5. It's like banning Pipes for Olimar. (It's pretty similar to PTAD, with somewhat more-pervasive hazards though the cars are less powerful.)

Also, took SATs last Saturday and found them rather pathetic.

 

[WindMajor]

I remember having to go to the bathroom really really bad when I took the SATs. It was so bad that I couldn't finish like the last 2 sections of the test. I was even sweating in there, and the air was on.

I still nailed that test though.

 

[sunshade]

I had very mild dyslexia when growing up (I still have moments but they are few and far between) and because of it I have had extended time to "proof read" all my work on tests and assignments. The funny part is that I hardly used the extended time and there was no specified cap on how much time I was given.

So durring my SAT I got nearly no sleep the night before the test and since I had extended time I decided to take a nap during the test. They noticed about a half hour into my nap that I was asleep and woke me up.

The SAT was incredibly easy (nap or no nap). I don't know why people stressed over it :/