Stage Counter Picks- Sheik

[SCOTU]

Ok, now that i think about it, japes isn't that bad, yeah, i overlooked the shine factor.

I'm not sure about DK64 though. I Have seen ppl been saved from shine spikes by the barrel before, i've even been force to barrel hog. The through stage recovery also applies to falco, and there isn't anything to edgetech falco's edgegaurd on.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Actually, I'd agree with Scotu and say that Japes is a Falco advantage.
I find it unfair to label Falco's "tricks" there as a bunch of double lasers and forward+b . It is much harder to edgeguard falco here than usual, because he has 6 million different ways to recover. In the event you don't play falco, recovering is one of his biggest weaknesses. Falco can gay fox just as well, with dairs from the middle of the stage into one of the many gaps in the stage. The small little platforms at the side are great for Falco, who can double laser onto them from the stage, and then immediately camp back. Once fox gets hit by one of the lasers, he will be shined, and ultimately spiked.

It's quite evident that the given reasons for why Fox doesn't lose here are all hypothetical, as opposed to from experience. Remember we're talking about high level play. It's a Falco advantage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ND8B-hiNIZ4

 

[JFox]

Sorry I failed you Scotu...or should I say the community failed you. It looks like me Scotu and Firexemblemxpryde are the only three people left paying attention to this thread, which causes a serious lack of conversation/debating.

I'm not really sure what to do. For much of the low tier lists, I had friends of mine come in and comment. But I can't just keep PMing people whenever I am unsure of something. People have to be willing to come in and participate. I don't know anymore...

 

[SCOTU]

what if we just did the same system for the neutrals, but with the counterpicks? I don't really get why it changed. that way, less participation is required (ppl don't need to bring up stuff, it's already brought up, they just have to comment). I've also noticed a serious lack of interest in the fox boards recently. because of that, i've been hanging out in the falco boards more, and falco's not even my 2nd. I hope this changes when i post some research that i've done when i get back from FC (can't reveal too much before i go).

 

[Omni]

Jungle Japes - Fox has the advantage. Can't be laser camped by Falco. Fox can manuever around the stage faster and better than Falco. Countless ledges = more chances of Falco being gimped. If Falco is knocked off the stage, it's easier to edgeguard him than if Fox falls off the stage and it is vice versa.

DK 64 - No clue. I honestly can't say who has the advantage on this stage.

 

[Dark Sonic]

I'd say that battlefield is worse than FD in the Fox vs Marth matchup. Yes chaingrabbing is a very big thing on FD, but it is very hard for Marth to grab Fox in the first place. Fox also has the advantage of not needing to make an aproach there. Marth is forced to make the aproach because Fox could just stay on the other side and laser. On battle field Marth can use the platforms to avoid getting lasered and still not aproach you. Battlefield also hinders Fox's recovery a lot more than FD because it is dificult to sweetspot there and with Marth's edgeguarding that is a very big problem. Marth can also abuse the platforms as much as he would chaingrabing if not a little more since it's easier to get him up there than to continue an effective chaingrab.

 

[JFox]

Scotu, how do you figure I should do it? There are so many counter pick stages...should I go through every one of them, just listing them? What would be the purpose of that.

The only reason I am doing counter picks is for people to know what stages are good/bad for fox. I don't really care about discussing counterpicks that are only in a character's slight advantage. We are only talking about at least mid advantage or strong advantage stages.

Sonic, I appreciate the input, but we are not discussing Fox Vs. Marth. We are also not discussing Battlefield or FD. We are talkin about Fox Vs. Falco counterpick stages. (and you are terribly wrong on that anywayz. FD is 0 to death with a single grab, no matter the DI. Watch m2k)

 

[SCOTU]

Good point. I dunno, but i think that one person bringing up what they think to start off discussion would be good, so that's what i tired to do (i'm no good at it though), so i suggest that you do.

 

[JFox]

I often don't know counterpicks. Thats why I left it that people could bring them up.

Green Greens- Fox Advantage.

Green Greens is all Fox all day. He has the low ceiling to kill Falco upwards. He has the blocks to tech when being hit horizontally. Its somewhat wide, yet Falco's shl isn't very effective here because of all the congestion. The ends are nice for shinespikes, and if falco is cought under the stage, its more difficult for him to make it back than it will be for fox.

Comments please?

 

[SCOTU]

Yes. sounds good. Fox's lasers aren't too impacted by the "congestion". Falco can easily be killed by the bottom of this stage, and off the top. small walls though, eh, fox can kill off them too (uthrow>fsmash @ 40 will do the trick if at the sides).

 

[Goldkirby]

I would put in helpful comments if I actually knew something about which levels are advantageous to who, but I'm still a scrub, and I come to the fox boards for threads like this to help me learn more about this game.

So even though people may not be debating as much, this thread is still very helpful JFox.

 

[Omni]

I often don't know counterpicks. Thats why I left it that people could bring them up.

Green Greens- Fox Advantage.

Green Greens is all Fox all day. He has the low ceiling to kill Falco upwards. He has the blocks to tech when being hit horizontally. Its somewhat wide, yet Falco's shl isn't very effective here because of all the congestion. The ends are nice for shinespikes, and if falco is cought under the stage, its more difficult for him to make it back than it will be for fox.

Comments please?

It's even. A camping pillaring Falco is really rough. Also double Falco shines can happen at very low %'s, and they're not very hard to pull off.

 

[Eggm]

I feel that on pretty much any non neutral fox has the advantage over falco.

 

[Omni]

Brinstar Depths - Fox's advantage. Falco falls faster so if he touches the lava, he's going to hit it quicker and probably be stuck in it longer. Also him being knocked off the sides of the stage give him little room for recovery, and anywhere below the stage is like afkfjkfa. Simply because Fox has better recovery and he's able to move around the stage better gives him an advantage.

Mute City - I'd say Fox, again, simply because of better recovery.

Poke Floats - Idk, Fox again. Just.. because.

 

[kerploplesteesh]

Brinstar Depths - Fox's advantage. Falco falls faster so if he touches the lava, he's going to hit it quicker and probably be stuck in it longer. Also him being knocked off the sides of the stage give him little room for recovery, and anywhere below the stage is like afkfjkfa. Simply because Fox has better recovery and he's able to move around the stage better gives him an advantage.

Mute City - I'd say Fox, again, simply because of better recovery.

Poke Floats - Idk, Fox again. Just.. because.

i think someone would look at you like youre crazy if you picked brinstar against a falco. Yes, he might get combo'd by the lava, but you will too. The stage dimensions are more set for falco as well. Up kills are harder to come by, while its easier to get a kill off either side.

 

[Omni]

i think someone would look at you like youre crazy if you picked brinstar against a falco. Yes, he might get combo'd by the lava, but you will too. The stage dimensions are more set for falco as well. Up kills are harder to come by, while its easier to get a kill off either side.

fox should never aim to kill falco over the top.

the structure of the level makes falco's lasers less threatening. the ledges make it very difficult for either of them to sweet spot, thus fox wins that point for having better recovery. fox just has better manueveribility than falco in general. fox simply adapts to this level better than falco.

 

[JFox]

Ok, for now I think I'm going to have to say that with all of the great debating, I think its best to just go forward. It isn't necessary to have counter pick stages for each character. I feel that in general, Fox does better on the counter pick stages than Falco does, just because Falco needs a more simple flat environment for comboing. But Fox doesn't seem to have more than a slight advantage on any of the stages, meaning they aren't really worth counterpicking unless you just feel more comfortable on those stages than the neutrals.

It is always smart to get strong on counter picks simply to use them against those who lack experience on counter picks. But in this matchup, they aren't worth a lot more than just that.

I will now open discussion for Fox Vs. Sheik. Lets hear what you've got.

 

[Omni]

I think the best counter stage would be Corneria.

 

[takieddine]

I think the best counter stage would be Corneria.

agreed, also YS maybe?

 

[SCOTU]

In just the counterpick stages, corneria's a pretty good one, lots of room for lasering, and a waveshine>usmash on the fin owns. hardcore.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Yeah, when mentioning the stage, it is good to talk about strats that work there. and things to watch out for.

 

[JFox]

Guys, there is NO need to bring up neutral stages considering we have all of them rated already for the top half of the cast. Stick to non-neutrals only.

Anyway, I agree about Corneria. Also, how about Mute City? Now I know that the ceiling is high, but its actually really nice for fox. Its very similar to FD, just no ledges. No ledges means that sheik can't play her ledge games. No Up B stalling, no Bair edgegaurd, and best of all, you can punish her really hard off her up B when she needs to recover.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

Agreed, at a tournament on saturday I chose Mute City against a sheik and won. Yay. Her up+b lag is ridiculous, and the lack of an edge makes it ridiculously easy to edgeguard her. and fox's up+b has no lag. and her ledgegames do suck, jfox. <3

lolz it felt so good to upsmash that lil slu... I played battlefield the match before, see. AND THE SHEIK WAS REALLY GOOD AND I STILL WON AND BUT I LOST THE SET WHEN I CHOSE MUTE CITY AGAIN AND HE WENT MARTH LOLZ.

 

[Wilhelmsan]

Jungle Japes - Slight Disadvantage
Kongo Jungle 64 - Slight Advantage
Green Greens - Advantage
Mute City - Advantage
Brinstar - Disadvantage
Corneria - Advantage
Rainbow Cruise - Slight Advantage
Poke Floats - Advantage

edit: if you want reasons I got em

 

[JFox]

I think that Japes is a straight disadvantage. I have had several people counter pick me on it. You can really just throw Fox down under the platfrom and gimp him because he'll lose his double. It really sucks.

I'm not sure I see why you rated rainbow cruise, dk 64, and poke floats the way you did. wanna explain?

 

[Excel_Zero]

On Green Greens Sheik can duck on the side and you won't be able to hit her with lasers, forcing you to approach her if you are at higher damage or have less stocks. Just wanted to point that out.

 

[JFox]

So now that the big FC hype is over, I was thinking maybe we can finish up the list.

For Sheik, here's what I was thinking I'd put up:
Corneria- Strong Advantage
Mute City- Advantage
Green Greens- Advantage
Brinstar- Disadvantage

Does anyone feel any other stages are worth mentioning? PokeFloats?

 

[SCOTU]

dunno, Drephen counterpicked corneria against M2K (M2K went fox) and that was the only game drephen won. I also think that Floats and Cruise are advantage for fox, since they are amazing for lasering and jumping around, while sheik has limited aerial maneuverability.

 

[JFox]

First off, I'd like to say that you can't judge a stage based upon simply one match alone.

With that said, I don't think that Drephen won because of the stage, I think he won because M2k is really not as good non-neutral stages. Also drephen forced him to go Fox, and Drephen is really good against spacies. (not to mention m2k hasn't played fox in a while).I feel like he would have done better on a stage he felt more comfortable with, but that is more personal than anything else.

However, I feel like strong advantage should perhaps be reserved for stages we are more sure of. So I will change it for not to simply "advantage"

I don't feel that Floats and Rainbow Cruise are really too helpful to Fox. I know what you are saying about the lasers, and its also easy to get vertical kills at certain points on the stage. But the problem I find with both of them is that you cannot punish Sheik for her Up B here like you can most stages, simply because she has so many options on where she can go. She can just Up B onto any platform and you won't be able to edgegaurd her. It really limits your ability to kill her enough to negate the other things.

 

[SCOTU]

That is a good point about the recovery, i can see it being very hard to edgeguard sheik. BUT, sheik has a difficult time moving about these stages do to having very low aerial acceleration. Full hopped nairs will often put her in a very bad situation (interrupting her jumping).

I wasn't full heartedly insinuating that Corneria is bad for fox against sheik, i was just pointing out some irony.

Why do you say Green Greens & Mute City against sheik anyway?

GG-Low ceiling, walls? (it has really easy kill zones for sheik to kill fox, and she can avoid camping here pretty well, and her dsmash on the side platforms can cause hell)
MC- Just for the recovery ownage? (road>slap is a great sheik combo, and her dsmash has no difficulty edguarding fox) i guess i can see this as advantage, it's hella harder to gimp fox here.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

ultimate fox counter pick: Hyrule. 1 laser wins you the match.

 

[Repryx]

Hyrule is Banned Almost Exlcusively (in most tourneys) Because of Fox and his Lasers sooo....
BTW Poke Floats Yes Due to Sheiks Small time Recovery!

 

[JFox]

Pokefloats yes? Wtf does that mean...? Advantage? Disadvantage?

Green Greens- Lasers are actually really easy to spam here. If you are on the side platforms you can actually just standing laser spam behind blocks, and they hit her on either platform. Also triple lasers aren't too bad.

But lasers aren't everything. I'm pretty sure you can use the blocks as a wall for infinites. Also the blocks are great to save you from fair kills. Than of course the low ceiling is a huge plus on this stage too.

 

[SCOTU]

yeah, blocks can be infinited against. but, if you're camping the hell outta the side platforms, then the blocks wont save you from any fairs (actually quite the opposite, it'll get you killed by one early). You just gotta think about where you're trying to be/ what's most advantageous to do. You can camp the middle and avoid fair kills and go for usmashes, but you can't laser camp well here. vice versa for sides.

 

[JFox]

IMO, you put WAY too much emphasis on spamming. The lasers aren't even key to Fox's game against sheik. Its more about combos, grabs, and edgegaurding/finishing.

I'm really tired of discussing Sheik. Can we agree on Brinstar(disadvantage), GreenGreens(advantage), and Mute City(advantage)?

Next up would be Marth.

 

[firexemblemxpryde]

yayuhz everyone laavs marth.
What do you guys think about Marth vs Fox on Mute City? There are no edges... and this helps kill off Fox's shine game. It also means that when Marth recovers, he will be in that terrible lag. Is it easier for Marth to edgeguard than on other stages?

In terms of combos, there are a few parts in the stage where marth can chainthrow, as well as a few places where Fox can infinite.

I personally think the recovery is better for Fox. but i'm not sure who holds the greatest advantage here.

 

[SCOTU]

Fox can punish marth's recovery, but marth can hose fox's all together. I don't think this stage goes too heavily in one direction or another.

EDIT: I don't put emphaisis on spamming, just correct spacing/ location.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

sheik can easily crouch under fox standing lasers on green greens.