Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

Scenario, you are recovering, spring shows up (as it does at random) then you are hit by the spring down as you try to recover, death. I lack a video (I need to get recording equipment so much) but this is very possible. The springs also tend to shoot downward instead of up so they're more likely to kill you.

Don't the springs rise from the bottom though? It appears to me that the majority of paths (no recovery comes to mind) to the ledge would be able to avoid the spring if they see it coming. Is there a specific character that would tend to have his interrupted?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Scenario, you are recovering, spring shows up (as it does at random) then you are hit by the spring down as you try to recover, death. I lack a video (I need to get recording equipment so much) but this is very possible. The springs also tend to shoot downward instead of up so they're more likely to kill you.

IIRC the springs rise up from below so the scenario you describe should be rare at best.

Also I tend to view the springs a bit like Randall in that even if they're not present at any given moment, a player should still be aware of their existence and plan accordingly. That will probably take the form of more horizontal recoveries so as to avoid them entirely.

'd by Piford. To answer his question, all that comes to mind is Little Mac (lol) and maybe Mega Man and Sonic since their recovery moves are very vertical.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Go and play around the springs @ Piford and @ ParanoidDrone they can shoot you down EVEN if you land on top. unless you land right in the little circle with the star there is still a chance they can kill you. So even if you are above you can get ever so lucky and still be shot downward.

Also I would NOT compare these to Randall AT all, Randall is on a set patterns and rotates through the stage so you can always know where it is.

Now if we're talking the ghosts on the side of Yoshi's Story MAYBE, but unless you are Ness those don't stand a chance to randomly kill you, only really save people where the springs are more likely to kill people. Plus I hate the fact that 100% at random someone could be saved or killed in the first place, we remove so many other things for randomly effecting match outcome, might this be similar?

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

It's also a problem for any character with a poor recovery because it can block them from recovering low. Then you basically are forced to use the spring or give your opponent a free gimp.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Go and play around the springs @ Piford and @ ParanoidDrone they can shoot you down EVEN if you land on top. unless you land right in the little circle with the star there is still a chance they can kill you. So even if you are above you can get ever so lucky and still be shot downward.

Also I would NOT compare these to Randall AT all, Randall is on a set patterns and rotates through the stage so you can always know where it is.

Now if we're talking the ghosts on the side of Yoshi's Story MAYBE, but unless you are Ness those don't stand a chance to randomly kill you, only really save people where the springs are more likely to kill people. Plus I hate the fact that 100% at random someone could be saved or killed in the first place, we remove so many other things for randomly effecting match outcome, might this be similar?

The support ghosts are a better comparison, you're right. But the only time the springs have ever killed me ever is when I had a brain fart and literally forgot they existed, so I maintain that it's generally possible to play around them unless the opponent is getting in your way. (In which case that's them using the stage to their advantage, more power to them.)

 

[Piford]

But the thing is you never want to use the springs. Even if they had a 0% chance to kill you wouldn't want to use them because of how predictable it is. If people avoid them completely then no ones going to die from them at least without the other player interacting (which might be a problem but thats something that would need to be shown through actual tournament play). Also randomly saving my opponent is just as bad as randomly killing me because saving my opponent could easily be my death. I think the springs seem significantly less intrusive than the Support Ghost but that just might be my bad luck.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The potential complaints I can see with a few stages on this list are
- Halberd's hazards (Actually only the claw, though the laser randomly favoring one player is questionable too)
- Windy Hill Zone (Specifically the random timing of the springs spawning, nothing else)

How would you argue against these points, or do you consider them not important enough to warrant a stage ban?
(Personally I'm using all but Windy Hill Zone for 13 "starter" stages for the Salem Smashfests)

We have years of experience on Halberd to know the claw really isn't a very big deal in practice. The claw's targeting is random but its timing is completely fixed with probably over 1000 frames of warning (it's some ridiculous amount such that no one can legitimately complain to be surprised by it). Generally all players simultaneously airdodge or shield right when it would hit, it's a little inconvenient, and everyone moves on. Given that it is so rare as well, it's really just a tiny issue. On the other hand, Halberd offers a lot of unique opportunities in terms of positive gameplay dynamics with its unique platform lay-out (the "one central platform" thing is now unique to it with Yoshi's Island Brawl being gone) and being 50-50 split between pass-through floor and solid floor and further having a just slightly low ceiling. I'm a firm believer that you can't just look at stages as lists of negatives that are "why we should ban"; you have to look at positives too, and Halberd has a strong upside, probably stronger than most other good stages.

Windy Hill Zone's springs are definitely the worst thing about the stage, but I just find in practice they play out a lot like support ghosts that we grew to accept. Their timing is random but their behavior and positioning are not. If you move into their zone of control, you're putting your fate into their hands for better or for worse, but it's at least not hard to be sure of what might happen when you go down there. The fact that hitting them in certain ways can be fatal worries some people, but support ghosts could do that too (especially Ness and Lucas, but honestly, having a platform pop out from under you unexpectedly in an edgeguard situation could throw you into a deathtrap with anyone). The other mitigating factor here is that the stage's shape with the blastzones makes going down there relatively less common than on other stages; the stage's horizontal blastzones are pretty close to the edge of the main stage (especially on the left), and on the right, you have the non-trivially useful option of recovering to the windmill which is often better even ignoring the springs altogether. It's pretty easy to have a full match in which both players, not even thinking about it, never put themselves into position to be hit by the springs, and if both players are aware of how the springs work, it seems pretty overwhelmingly rare for them to play out as a particularly significant element. Otherwise, Windy Hill Zone is a pretty solid stage, promoting the gameplan of more horizontal characters, characters that kill up, and characters with weaker off-stage games which makes it a nice counter-balance to Kongo Jungle 64 that does precisely the opposite.

Either way, we do have 14 and one has to be dropped procedurally. It sounds like your local events have reasonable rules to me. I just figured I had better answer the direct question about these two stages.

 

[StarrTheSquirrel]

I'm going to bring us back to the Duck Hunt stage, specifically the idea of camping the tree against characters that don't fight well in the air. Duck hunt should be a counterpick, simply because that its bad for some characters, but good for others, and is legal-stage material. You counter-pick a stage because it's better for you and worse for your opponent. So if you lose a game against, let's say, little mac, and the little mac player doesnt ban duck hunt, but bans other stages that are good for your character, you can CP to duck hunt and use the tree to your advantage. I'm not saying you should camp the tree and not come down, I'm saying you should go to the tree whenever you're in a bad situation against that little mac, just to avoid being combo'd further.

Banning Duck Hunt because people can use the tree against ground-based fighters is like banning Final Destination because Mac does better against people without platforms.

I'm going to remind you all that not all stages have to be Neutral/Starters. The entire purpose of having a CP list is because some stages are better for certain characters. Not to mention that the winner of the last round can ban three CP stages, so for example, if a jiggly lost to a little mac, and the next match is on duck hunt, that's the Mac's fault because he/she didn't ban Duck Hunt.

 

[thehard]

Duck hunt should be a counterpick, simply because that its bad for some characters, but good for others

That is every legal stage, and that's why FLSS is a superior stage selection method

 

[Thinkaman]

Quick reminder:

Camping the tree on Duck Hunt isn't as good of a long-term strategy as it seems, because the camped player can kill a duck to manipulate the dog platform into coming up under the tree. This is important for Little Mac and Ganondorf, who iirc are the only characters who can't double jump up to the lower platform?

 

[Locke 06]

Quick reminder:

Camping the tree on Duck Hunt isn't as good of a long-term strategy as it seems, because the camped player can kill a duck to manipulate the dog platform into coming up under the tree. This is important for Little Mac and Ganondorf, who iirc are the only characters who can't double jump up to the lower platform?

Maybe not as good, but it is still strong as you've limited their approach options to only aerial/sharking. If they choose to shark, they will have to go back down to the base of the stage and by then the dog is probably gone, which means they need to take the time to kill birds & make the dog appear again.

This is extremely strong against Mac, whose aerial approach is <insert preferred synonym of bad>.

 

[Piford]

I'm pretty sure Gannondorf and Little Mac are going to strike Duck Hunt every time.

 

[Locke 06]

I'm pretty sure Gannondorf and Little Mac are going to strike Duck Hunt every time.

Then they go to KJ64, BF, T&C, or Delfino which suffer from similar platform issues.

 

[Piford]

Then they go to KJ64, BF, T&C, or Delfino which suffer from similar platform issues.

I know they can reach the platforms in KJ64, they can use the bottom platform in Battlefield, not sure about Town and City but the moving one in the center should help, and they shouldn't have problems on 3/4 layouts of delfino, but I'm no sure about the battlefield esque one with the long high platform and the two small ones off the side.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know they can reach the platforms in KJ64, they can use the bottom platform in Battlefield, not sure about Town and City but the moving one in the center should help, and they shouldn't have problems on 3/4 layouts of delfino, but I'm no sure about the battlefield esque one with the long high platform and the two small ones off the side.

Little Mac and Ganondorf can reach all platforms on Town & City with their double jump alone except for the central platform when it moves too high up, but it comes back down a few seconds later so that's probably moot.

 

[thehard]

By the way, can the T&C platforms kill you after flying away or is it like Prism Tower where your char just gets pushed off?

 

[Locke 06]

I edited this into my last post, but I'll put it here: any stage that has a platforms that's Mac can't shark from the ground is a bad stage for him. Kj64, DH, and BF are the worst because the platforms are static. (Ganondorf can exert enough platform pressure to the point that sitting on platforms isn't a great idea... so I meant to be only talking about Mac. Apologies.)

Looking more into the platforms, I see now that they can DJ to KJ64's platforms (which I didn't think they could do). They can also DJ to BF's top platform. However, this still makes Mac have to approach via air or try to empty land to access his ground moveset.

For Delfino, I was thinking about platforms 1, 2, and 4 of the traveling stages.

By the way, can the T&C platforms kill you after flying away or is it like Prism Tower where your char just gets pushed off?

http://smashboards.com/threads/town-city-stage-research.384428/

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well guys as you may have heard Hypest is helping to co-host Smash 4 Worldwide, which has an $1000 dollar prize pool thus far (that may even INCREASE soon).

We've been polling on stage legality there, and it seems that Castle Siege and Skyloft are stages people are very iffy on right now, so we may need to discuss these and get to educating folks about those stages if we want to keep them alive. Wuhu Island is slowly crawling further towards more banned then legal, so it's on the funeral march right now.

So just a fair warning, since this poll has so far eclipsed even those done on reddit these are the stages we need to talk about and defend or lambast for legality.

 

[Piford]

Damn that stupid glitch video killed wuhu island for no reason. We really need someone that is considered important (because apparently placing extremely high in past games is what qualify's you to know about stages) to make a big post about it here and on reddit and wherever else. People seem to disregard anything on Smashboards and Reddit as casual.

For those stages, the main issue people seem to have is that they are temporary walk-offs. Whenever you try to explain to people that you can't camp them, a lot of the time they just don't listen. I don't know what I can do outside of explaining why that isn't posisible on Reddit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Damn that stupid glitch video killed wuhu island for no reason. We really need someone that is considered important (because apparently placing extremely high in past games is what qualify's you to know about stages) to make a big post about it here and on reddit and wherever else. People seem to disregard anything on Smashboards and Reddit as casual.

For those stages, the main issue people seem to have is that they are temporary walk-offs. Whenever you try to explain to people that you can't camp them, a lot of the time they just don't listen. I don't know what I can do outside of explaining why that isn't posisible on Reddit.

Can we collectively yell at Gimr or something? It's a shame because I like Wuhu Island more than Skyloft for arbitrary reasons (mostly the scenery). Although last time I saw a thread about it on Reddit no one seemed to bring the glitch up.

I can research Castle Siege next if it'll help.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Ganondorf's uair is one of his very best moves; he has no real worries about people platform camping him and making themselves uair bait. I dunno if Duck Hunt in particular is bad for him, but in general, Ganon loves platforms. Little Mac is bad on almost every stage and is probably not a good character overall; making rules to baby him doesn't really seem worth it at all, and I'd say it's more reasonable to just say it's on the Little Mac players to prove he can win on stages that aren't FD or almost FD if we're going to look at him as viable at all and thus even worthy of consideration.

 

[Piford]

Can we collectively yell at Gimr or something? It's a shame because I like Wuhu Island more than Skyloft for arbitrary reasons (mostly the scenery). Although last time I saw a thread about it on Reddit no one seemed to bring the glitch up.

I can research Castle Siege next if it'll help.

You could probably whip up a Castle Siege thread in like 5 minutes. There are 3 sections. Each last 45 seconds. 3 section has tilting thats on a timer I believe (need to check that).

I think Castle Siege is mostly safe since most higher up people seem to be fine with it. But it'll be nice to have an analysis anyways.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

You could probably whip up a Castle Siege thread in like 5 minutes. There are 3 sections. Each last 45 seconds. 3 section has tilting thats on a timer I believe (need to check that).

I think Castle Siege is mostly safe since most higher up people seem to be fine with it. But it'll be nice to have an analysis anyways.

Yeah I wouldn't expect it to take long, but I want to verify the transformation timings and check the HP value of the statues at the very least.

 

[Uniit]

My stand on Skyloft is pretty decided, as i'm against just because the "landing" phase can screw up people hangin on the ledge, or recovering, because the island can actually hit you (and it not something that can be use against your opponent), and because (warning, personal opinion here) i found the layout pretty wierd (about 50% of the time). I can't really see why it can be a better stage than delfino.

On Castle siege, there are there concerns that twxo are actually not, as the statues and the walkoff. Statues block projectiles, but can be destroyed, walkoff aren't a real issue, and it's temporary. The third is the transition that can be deceptive as you don't always know if you are in the center of the stage or not.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

My stand on Skyloft is pretty decided, as i'm against just because the "landing" phase can screw up people hangin on the ledge, or recovering, because the island can actually hit you (and it not something that can be use against your opponent), and because (warning, personal opinion here) i found the layout pretty wierd (about 50% of the time). I can't really see why it can be a better stage than delfino.

Because Delfino has 5 transformations with water, 4 with walkoffs, and only 1 with neither, compared to Skyloft which has 5 walkoff transformations, none with water, and 6 that lack either?

For the record I don't think Delfino's transformations are problematic, but walkoffs and water are the most commonly cited issues with Skyloft and Wuhu Island's transformations which always struck me as a bit hypocritical when Delfino is considered fine.

 

[Piford]

I've only seen the one glitch where the guy kept hanging on the ledge when he ended up inside the stage (which I haven't been able to replicate so it's likely just a one off thing). What other part about the landing screws you up?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can we collectively yell at Gimr or something? It's a shame because I like Wuhu Island more than Skyloft for arbitrary reasons (mostly the scenery). Although last time I saw a thread about it on Reddit no one seemed to bring the glitch up.

I can research Castle Siege next if it'll help.

I actually asked the guy who ran the AMA and is a part of Xanadu about Wuhu and Skyloft, and I got rather non committal answers. :/ I really wish there was a more connected way for folks to talk to each other where everyone would listen

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I actually asked the guy who ran the AMA and is a part of Xanadu about Wuhu and Skyloft, and I got rather non committal answers. :/ I really wish there was a more connected way for folks to talk to each other where everyone would listen

Ideally that would be /r/smashbros or here on Smashboards, but it seems like half of the big names don't ever come here and the other half go by different names (probably to avoid getting swarmed). I agree it would be a huge benefit if there were some sort of open forum or discussion where we could count on people seeing what we say to them. As it stands it all seems very insular and distant from the rest of us.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Castle Siege was just as simple to do as predicted here. Not a lot going on but it's one step closer to having a mostly-comprehensive thread on every stage in the game.

Apologies for double posting but I felt the exposure warranted it.

 

[Pippin (Peregrin Took)]

Curious about a couple of stages - I know Delfino Plaza and Halberd are counterpicks at Apex, but what are the reasons why Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Pilotwings are banned? PS2 and Pilotwings may be obvious because I've never seen it on any stage list but neither of them seem too bad to me.

I also noticed that while most people lump all omega stages together, some also consider their respective layouts which do seem to make a difference. I'd like to see a couple specific ones get standardized like Coliseum, Palutena's Temple, and Woolly World (all of which have different walls underneath) without them totally dominating the stagelist. How would we go about that?

 

[Jaxas]

Curious about a couple of stages - I know Delfino Plaza and Halberd are counterpicks at Apex, but what are the reasons why Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Pilotwings are banned? PS2 and Pilotwings may be obvious because I've never seen it on any stage list but neither of them seem too bad to me.

I also noticed that while most people lump all omega stages together, some also consider their respective layouts which do seem to make a difference. I'd like to see a couple specific ones get standardized like Coliseum, Palutena's Temple, and Woolly World (all of which have different walls underneath) without them totally dominating the stagelist. How would we go about that?

There have been some pretty serious complaints with Apex's stage-list overall (mostly the whole 3-starters thing) but Skyloft is definitely a glaring omission from the list itself.
Pilotwings is banned due to camping (the engines under the wings on the yellow plane are incredibly safe camping positions), and PS2 is likely just banned because it was in Brawl, honestly. Most people don't even seem to realize that it was toned down pretty heavily from Brawl (Electric: Treadmills slowed down | Ice: Tripping removed (fun for Perfect Pivots!) | Air: Faster global fall speeds helps this | Earth: Wall infinites removed).

As for Omegas, from what I've seen the standard is "Final Destination is the version used in Game 1 (A starter), and whoever counterpicks to FD gets to pick which Omega form they go to. Banning FD bans all Omegas."

 

[Piford]

Curious about a couple of stages - I know Delfino Plaza and Halberd are counterpicks at Apex, but what are the reasons why Skyloft, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Pilotwings are banned? PS2 and Pilotwings may be obvious because I've never seen it on any stage list but neither of them seem too bad to me.

I also noticed that while most people lump all omega stages together, some also consider their respective layouts which do seem to make a difference. I'd like to see a couple specific ones get standardized like Coliseum, Palutena's Temple, and Woolly World (all of which have different walls underneath) without them totally dominating the stagelist. How would we go about that?

Skyloft and PS2 aren't really banned for any real reason (not one they gave anyways). Pilotwings is a stage that has way to powerful camping underneath the wings on both the monoplane and the biplane.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

By the way, can the T&C platforms kill you after flying away or is it like Prism Tower where your char just gets pushed off?

Managed to miss this, the answer is yes they can kill you. They always move horizontally offscreen, never vertically. The center platform in the Town form moves to the right which looks a bit weird because asymmetry but that's whatever.

 

[Pazx]

Skyloft and PS2 are likely banned because some competitive players decided having a conservative stage list is what's best for competitive play with no real basis for that argument.

 

[Paper Maribro]

Im not sure if this is where it should go but one of these glitches is definitely stage related

Thoughts other than how funny it is?

 

[HiNiTe]

Im not sure if this is where it should go but one of these glitches is definitely stage related

Thoughts other than how funny it is?

Uh oh, looks like we should ban Battlefield. First Wuhu, now this?! We need a patch, Sakurai, ASAP!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Did a thread on Lylat Cruise because I want to get the Apex legal stages out of the way ASAP now that we know what they are. (Still salty...) Although I don't think I'll bother with Battlefield and Final Destination yet.

@ Amazing Ampharos will be interested in this one, I think, but he's also super busy these days from what I gather.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Did a thread on Lylat Cruise because I want to get the Apex legal stages out of the way ASAP now that we know what they are. (Still salty...) Although I don't think I'll bother with Battlefield and Final Destination yet.

@ Amazing Ampharos will be interested in this one, I think, but he's also super busy these days from what I gather.

Did you happen to check out the old Lylat Cruise Thread when making this? It might be able to add a LOT to the guide. Not to mention, check this out:

Lylat Cruise

This traditionally starter stage is often made a counterpick for tournaments that have a small starter list.

• Details:
  • Static layout that frequently tilts slightly to either side
    
    
  • 3 platforms at the same height
    
    
  • Edges are slightly slanted
    
    
  • Average blast zones
  
  
• Gameplay / Strategy:
  • The tilt of the stage corresponds with the background animations; the stage will always level out during the warp sequence.
    
    
  • As the stage tilts, it can interfere with some chaingrabs and combos
    
    
  • Platform cancelling can be performed at all points of the ship's path EXCEPT for when it is entering Corneria's atmosphere. At any other time, even if the ship does not appear to be tilting, platform cancelling is possible.
    
    
  • The positioning of the platforms can make it particularly dangerous for characters who are easily juggled
  
  
• Usage:
  • Generally a starter unless the tournament's starter list is 5 stages or less, in which case it is always a counterpick.
  
  
• Stage Diagrams:
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  

If and when Smashville happens let me know, I have pictures that even explain the BALLOON TRAJECTORIES. Seriously, it's amazing stuff!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Did you happen to check out the old Lylat Cruise Thread when making this? It might be able to add a LOT to the guide. Not to mention, check this out:




If and when Smashville happens let me know, I have pictures that even explain the BALLOON TRAJECTORIES. Seriously, it's amazing stuff!

I have not seen that thread but it seems very informative. I'll be lazy and simply edit in a link to it.

And I always post here when I make a new thread, so you'll see Smashville when it happens.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I have not seen that thread but it seems very informative. I'll be lazy and simply edit in a link to it.

And I always post here when I make a new thread, so you'll see Smashville when it happens.

Aw, don't be lazy! There's great info in those pictures, might as well use em proper. People will be lazy and read multiple threads.