Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[webbedspace]

I want to see Pokemon Stadium 2, emphasising Brawl vs. 4 differences.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I want to see Pokemon Stadium 2, emphasising Brawl vs. 4 differences.

I can do that next, but I don't have access to a Brawl disk to verify differences firsthand. The best I'd be able to do on that score is repeating what others say.

In the meantime I threw together topics on Battlefield and Big Battlefield in, oh, a half hour total? Yeah, I just wanted them out of the way. Don't expect anyone will be excited about these in particular but still. Progress.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Here I come again with more data to peruse. Our poll for Smash 4 Worldwide (which has over 1039 responses) has these percentages showing:

55% for Castle Siege
74% for Delfino
64% for Duck Hunt
65% for Halberd
69% for Kongo Jungle
55% for Skyloft
46% for Wuhu Island

There are still many more days so some of these could change, but I doubt you'll see any huge and major shifts. So there you have it, a HUGE public thought on stages. For those questiuons where is Pokemon Stadium 2, unfortunately it's not in the poll. However, with how Wuhu looks I expect it to have been similar. Any stage less popular then Wuhu Island is not going to be legal even if it should be. It's time to defend the fringe stages before they are gone instead of supporting those that are already dead.

@ ParanoidDrone got to the Brawl forums, go to the stage thread (stickied), go to the giant guide on all the stages (and check out other threads too). That will provide you MORE then enough info on PS2 in Brawl, there were VERY extensive guides written on it.

 

[Firefoxx]

Here I come again with more data to peruse. Our poll for Smash 4 Worldwide (which has over 1039 responses) has these percentages showing:

74% for Delfino

55% for Skyloft

I don't get how so many people LOVE Delfino and don't like Skyloft. (Or Wuhu but that ship has probably sailed.) It's so frustrating.

Edit: I almost forgot to post the thing I was actually on here for. I found a thing on Skyloft last night but forgot to record the match/take a picture. On the Waterfall island you can grab the ledge of the main/traveling platform while its rising up. This causes your character to clip through the island itself. I don't think its a huge deal since you can only be inside the island for a second or 2 at most but its a thing that should be known if it wasn't already.

 

[Piford]

I don't get how so many people LOVE Delfino and don't like Skyloft. (Or Wuhu but that ship has probably sailed.) It's so frustrating.

Because they played on Delfino in Brawl so they are already use to it and know about it. Skyloft is new so they would need to learn a new stage and people don't like change (broad generalization). I mean 55% of people wanting it is still a majority, so that's a good thing. I also find a lot of people seem to not know Skyloft exist and think it's Skyworld when people mention it. Another thing is people seem to think its "the same" as Delfino so it's stupid to include it. I think if this stage was used more it would have a lot more support behind it.

Wuhu Island being at 46% is actually pretty good since a majority of the wanting it banned comes solely from that stupid video. Many people like the stage, but say it should be banned because of that insignificant glitch.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is generally 50/50 and will probably stay that way forever. Unless a major tournament uses it, I think it's just going to be random whether or not it's used.

 

[Quickhero]

I don't get how so many people LOVE Delfino and don't like Skyloft. (Or Wuhu but that ship has probably sailed.) It's so frustrating.

Boat would be more accurate.

Seriously though, I think that glitch is probably the main reason why people are so reluctant to that stage. That, and MAYBE the fountain part, but I expect Wuhu to have a lot more popularity once that glitch is fixed.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Boat would be more accurate.

Seriously though, I think that glitch is probably the main reason why people are so reluctant to that stage. That, and MAYBE the fountain part, but I expect Wuhu to have a lot more popularity once that glitch is fixed.

Or, you know, once the information that the glitch is character dependent, positioning dependent, and extremely hard to do even with everything else right. It's so beyond difficult to do on purpose that quite honestly, I would rate it as a pretty hype moment if it actually occurred in a tournament.

 

[Piford]

Or, you know, once the information that the glitch is character dependent, positioning dependent, and extremely hard to do even with everything else right. It's so beyond difficult to do on purpose that quite honestly, I would rate it as a pretty hype moment if it actually occurred in a tournament.

Actually trying to get the glitch and succeeding (because you know it only seemed to work 10% of the time for the guy who could replicate it) means you are probably skilled enough and your opponent lacks skill that you'd win anyways. I mean its so specific that if your opponent can't manage to stay on one side of the boat for a couple seconds then he's probably not going to win anyways.

 

[Ticker]

Wuhu Island being at 46% is actually pretty good since a majority of the wanting it banned comes solely from that stupid video. Many people like the stage, but say it should be banned because of that insignificant glitch.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is generally 50/50 and will probably stay that way forever. Unless a major tournament uses it, I think it's just going to be random whether or not it's used.

Some of the layouts on wuhu are pretty jank tho. Just off the top of my head, the bridge and volcano are pretty horrible. Personally, I don't like the boat but thats more of a personal thing.

I could see Pokemon Stadium 2 being legal if most transformations didn't change up the physics of the game.

 

[Piford]

Some of the layouts on wuhu are pretty jank tho. Just off the top of my head, the bridge and volcano are pretty horrible. Personally, I don't like the boat but thats more of a personal thing.

I could see Pokemon Stadium 2 being legal if most transformations didn't change up the physics of the game.

For the bridge and the volcano, because their platforms that have holes allow you to attack from below they aren't really issues. Usually the problems with holes is that it limits approaching options or is at least riskier depending on the exact situation. With these being soft platforms, it adds the pretty safe option of attacking from below. This means the problems normally presented wont generally occur (of course in some matchups like anyone vs little mac there could still be problems).

Pokemon Stadium 2 doesn't even really change the physics. I believe the air transformation simple applies a force up instead of reducing gravity since you fall normally if you get far enough off stage (correct me if I'm wrong). The ice just lowers the traction similar to how grass does. Regardless of changing the physics, it doesn't make it any less of a fair stage. The player who is performing better should always win, as nothing is stopping them from it. Heck, the stage is pretty fair for all characters compared to a lot of stages as it doesn't really benefit any character that much.

 

[Ticker]

For the bridge and the volcano, because their platforms that have holes allow you to attack from below they aren't really issues. Usually the problems with holes is that it limits approaching options or is at least riskier depending on the exact situation. With these being soft platforms, it adds the pretty safe option of attacking from below. This means the problems normally presented wont generally occur (of course in some matchups like anyone vs little mac there could still be problems).

Pokemon Stadium 2 doesn't even really change the physics. I believe the air transformation simple applies a force up instead of reducing gravity since you fall normally if you get far enough off stage (correct me if I'm wrong). The ice just lowers the traction similar to how grass does. Regardless of changing the physics, it doesn't make it any less of a fair stage. The player who is performing better should always win, as nothing is stopping them from it. Heck, the stage is pretty fair for all characters compared to a lot of stages as it doesn't really benefit any character that much.

I'm not saying the bridge and volcano are bad, I'm just saying that they're layout is pretty weird. Personally on Pokemon stadium 2, it's a fun stage, but I can see why competitive players wouldn't like it. The transformations can change how your character moves around, which could be odd in competitive play but idk. However, I could definitely see it working as a counterpick for some characters, but I feel that it rarely be selected as alot of people don't like the "physics" changes the transformations cause.

 

[Pazx]

I'm not saying the bridge and volcano are bad, I'm just saying that they're layout is pretty weird.

Actually:

Some of the layouts on wuhu are pretty jank tho. Just off the top of my head, the bridge and volcano are pretty horrible.

Also IMO boat is worse than volcano and bridge however I think that ship has sailed and this stage won't be played much. I'll always turn it on during casuals though unless I get complaints.[/quote]

 

[Terotrous]

Because they played on Delfino in Brawl so they are already use to it and know about it. Skyloft is new so they would need to learn a new stage and people don't like change (broad generalization). I mean 55% of people wanting it is still a majority, so that's a good thing. I also find a lot of people seem to not know Skyloft exist and think it's Skyworld when people mention it. Another thing is people seem to think its "the same" as Delfino so it's stupid to include it. I think if this stage was used more it would have a lot more support behind it.

Wuhu Island being at 46% is actually pretty good since a majority of the wanting it banned comes solely from that stupid video. Many people like the stage, but say it should be banned because of that insignificant glitch.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is generally 50/50 and will probably stay that way forever. Unless a major tournament uses it, I think it's just going to be random whether or not it's used.

I agree with your general reasoning, but I think it's important to stress this is best-case. A lot of the people voting probably have no exposure to the competitive community at all and are either voting based on "this stage looks stupid" or "metroid is cool" or just picking random responses (seriously, who voted banned for any of BF / FD / SV?)


Incidentally, Pokemon Stadium 2 is a horrible stage and I totally voted banned on that one. Yes, the base layout is easily one of the best in the game, but 3 of the 4 transformations are seriously disruptive. With Town and City having a generally similar layout there's really just no need for it anymore.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Pokemon Stadium 2 is done. I tried to pay special attention to the physics behind the ice, conveyor belts, and updraft. The only thing missing is testing perfect pivots on the Ice form since I'm bad at perfect pivots. If someone else feels like doing that bit, I won't complain.

I'll probably do Halberd next, although testing kill % on the Combo Cannon promises to be annoying just due to waiting around for it every time.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Pokemon Stadium 2 is done. I tried to pay special attention to the physics behind the ice, conveyor belts, and updraft. The only thing missing is testing perfect pivots on the Ice form since I'm bad at perfect pivots. If someone else feels like doing that bit, I won't complain.

I'll probably do Halberd next, although testing kill % on the Combo Cannon promises to be annoying just due to waiting around for it every time.

Thanks for the analysis. I was wondering about the timing for the transformations. Honestly, I don't think the transformations are too disruptive to play, and even if they were, at max only about 1/3 of the match is held on them, with the other 2/3 held on probably one of the most solid stages in the game.

 

[Pazx]

I agree with your general reasoning, but I think it's important to stress this is best-case. A lot of the people voting probably have no exposure to the competitive community at all and are either voting based on "this stage looks stupid" or "metroid is cool" or just picking random responses (seriously, who voted banned for any of BF / FD / SV?)


Incidentally, Pokemon Stadium 2 is a horrible stage and I totally voted banned on that one. Yes, the base layout is easily one of the best in the game, but 3 of the 4 transformations are seriously disruptive. With Town and City having a generally similar layout there's really just no need for it anymore.

Changes from Brawl to Sm4sh:
Higher fall speed (affects flying)
No tripping (affects ice)
No ledge hogging (affects electricity)
No wall infinities (affects earth)

Transformation specific:
Ice: Allows for cool tricks with sliding that need to be explored, otherwise promotes aerial play
Flying: Probably the only "bad" transformation although adds something to the game in the way that it makes vertical kill moves more effective (at the cost of potentially knocking your opponent close to the blast zone yet not killing them allowing them to waste time by falling)
Electricity: Conveyor belts allegedly slower than in Brawl, promotes very good stage control
Earth: Kinda boring in comparison however this transformation would arguably be legal in any Sm4sh game. Doesn't last long enough for stalling behind hill, unique platform layout

If you have any negatives about the stage aside from "it's a horrible stage" or you have examples of the transformations being "seriously disruptive" feel free to share, I and most others in this thread think it's a great stage that is unfortunately not likely to be legalised at major events.

 

[webbedspace]

With Town and City having a generally similar layout there's really just no need for it anymore.

If you're referring to T&C's City form (which exists for all of 30 seconds compared to Normal Stadium's 1 minute), then, well, even by shape it really isn't comparable. Moving platforms are dramatically different in utility than static ones, especially ones that periodically pass the ledges. Not to mention the blast line differences, arguably the most important (yet most invisible) aspect of any stage.

 

[Terotrous]

Changes from Brawl to Sm4sh:
Higher fall speed (affects flying)
No tripping (affects ice)
No ledge hogging (affects electricity)
No wall infinities (affects earth)

Transformation specific:
Ice: Allows for cool tricks with sliding that need to be explored, otherwise promotes aerial play
Flying: Probably the only "bad" transformation although adds something to the game in the way that it makes vertical kill moves more effective (at the cost of potentially knocking your opponent close to the blast zone yet not killing them allowing them to waste time by falling)
Electricity: Conveyor belts allegedly slower than in Brawl, promotes very good stage control
Earth: Kinda boring in comparison however this transformation would arguably be legal in any Sm4sh game. Doesn't last long enough for stalling behind hill, unique platform layout

It's pretty simple really. Flying and Electricity have barely changed at all since Brawl. In Flying, if you jump once, you're up there for like 10-15 seconds, often in a place where you and the opponent literally can't hit each other. In Electricity, there's one tiny inch of space where you can fight properly, and if you have that spot it's almost the game's very best camping position because the game does everything it can to keep you away from it. Most of the time this is just 30 seconds of people grabbing the ledge (you can go onstage briefly and let the conveyors carry you off again, then grab it again and get invincibility back. Ice is technically playable, albeit annoying and slow, it seems like hitlag is drastically increased here for whatever reason. Earth is the only functional transformation, so you've got a 1 in 4 chance of allowing the match to continue in any reasonable way any time the stage transforms.

 

[Quickhero]

What makes "the flying part just makes nothing happen for a little bit" become such a big deal and so important? I mean, I get that it might just be a bit boring to watch, but you didn't get into fighting games just to watch, you got into the game to play, and allowing a little bit of a "time waste" in order to allow a stage to be allowed in most tournaments would be really nice that's relatively good isn't a bad thing at all.

From what people have said, the time lapse between each segment really hinders camping to such an extreme extent, and ice isn't a big deal at all anymore. Electric is the only one that IMO that has potential to be "unhealthy" and thus, the stage shouldn't be allowed if it does. Still, I think it's safe to say that 3/4 of the transformations aren't an issue.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What makes "the flying part just makes nothing happen for a little bit" become such a big deal and so important? I mean, I get that it might just be a bit boring to watch, but you didn't get into fighting games just to watch, you got into the game to play, and allowing a little bit of a "time waste" in order to allow a stage to be allowed in most tournaments would be really nice that's relatively good isn't a bad thing at all.

From what people have said, the time lapse between each segment really hinders camping to such an extreme extent, and ice isn't a big deal at all anymore. Electric is the only one that IMO that has potential to be "unhealthy" and thus, the stage shouldn't be allowed if it does. Still, I think it's safe to say that 3/4 of the transformations aren't an issue.

Also, my standard comeback response to anyone complaining that a transformation is boring is to point at the Fire and Rock forms in Melee PS1. There are several videos out there of matches coming to a grinding halt for the entire duration of either transformation because the players were in the right (wrong?) positions at the time, yet everyone puts up with it. Complaining about a stage due to a transformation having the potential to stall the match for its duration is a bit hypocritical unless you want to complain about PS1 for the same reasons.

Also the flying form in particular does exactly nothing if you just stay on the ground. (And don't get hit because then, yeah, you're in the air barring low % hits.) Sometimes I wonder if everyone's obsession with short hop aerials is why they see it as being so intrusive. I bet Little Mac, for instance, wouldn't care a bit about it minus people simply taking longer to fall into his range.

 

[ぱみゅ]

God forbid those who stall the match for 30 seconds....

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So I was thinking about how if Villager was in Melee, he could drop his bowling ball down the left side of the giant mountain in PS1's Rock form. Then I thought that if Sakurai had done quite a lot of drugs and decided bowling ball as an aerial was a good idea, Villager could then rain death on everyone in the Flying form of PS2.

Clearly it's late and I need to go to bed.

 

[Terotrous]

What makes "the flying part just makes nothing happen for a little bit" become such a big deal and so important? I mean, I get that it might just be a bit boring to watch, but you didn't get into fighting games just to watch, you got into the game to play

Well it's not like you can really play either. Even if you fast fall it often takes 5+ seconds just to get back to the stage. That's dumb. You sometimes can't really play on the electric transformation either. That means there's a 50% chance of extreme jankiness each time the stage transforms. I don't really find either of the other transformations good either, Ice is lame and the rock is just blah.

Also, my standard comeback response to anyone complaining that a transformation is boring is to point at the Fire and Rock forms in Melee PS1. There are several videos out there of matches coming to a grinding halt for the entire duration of either transformation because the players were in the right (wrong?) positions at the time, yet everyone puts up with it. Complaining about a stage due to a transformation having the potential to stall the match for its duration is a bit hypocritical unless you want to complain about PS1 for the same reasons.

PS1 is also a terrible stage. I was always in favour of it being removed from the stagelist for PM.

The reason people put up with it in Melee is because they didn't have as many good stages to choose from, not because it was ever a great stage. Smash 4 Wii U has loads of good stages, so PS2 isn't really needed.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Smash 4 Wii U has loads of good stages, so PS2 isn't really needed.

So we'll say that, then take out a few stages. Then when folks start to ask to ban those stages that seemed perfectly good those will eventually die too leaving us with NOTHING.

Unless it's broken or proving proving to be a problem you shouldn't ban a stage.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

PS1 was always a fantastic stage. The base form is amazing, the windmill and grass transformations also great. Rock wasn't too good, yeah, but it still wasn't something worth killing the stage. Fire the same thing, but yo a lesser extent.

The reason why PM tournaments dropped PS1 is because A) PM has the problem of having too many legal stages, and B) PS2 is a thing.

So yeah, long live PS.

 

[ぱみゅ]

The reason why PM tournaments dropped PS1 is because A) PM has the problem of having too many legal stages

How can this even be a problem?

*snip*

I guess rvery discussion group needs someone who brings weak arguments (we had a couple back there in the Brawl Stage discussion).

 

[Thinkaman]

I think having too many legal stages is like having too many characters, or a standing national surplus.

It's hypothetically a definite problem you could have, but it's not one that anyone actually faces in 2015.

 

[Piford]

How can this even be a problem?

I think the main problem was that some of the stages were redundant. Most notably PS1 was redundant with PS2

 

[ぱみゅ]

Is PS1 redundant with PS2, but no stage is redundant to Battlefield?

huh.

 

[Krysco]

Been lurking here for a while since I enjoy the discussion that goes on in here and I've got questions in regards to PS2. First off, why was it banned in Brawl? There's no direct hazards, no permanent walkoffs and no permanent walls. I'm guessing it's just because in that game each phase aside from the default caused too much of a problem? Ice increased tripping and made people have to get used to different traction, electric forced stage control, ground had a wall for easy chaingrabs and infinites and flying slowed down the already slow pace of the game.

Now in Smash 4 a few of those things have changed: tripping is gone so all ice does is change traction which isn't strictly a bad thing, electric's conveyor belts have been slowed down I think? Maybe everyone just moves faster but the forced stage control is still there, ground isn't an issue since chaingrabs and infinites against walls are gone and everyone falls and altogether moves faster so flying isn't as bad.

The worst I can see from each phase aside from default is ice makes people have to adapt to new traction for 30 seconds, ground could have stalling (can't be any worse than the stalling in fire of ps1), electric forces stage control for the middle of the stage (much like how Norfair can force stage control over one platform with lava surrounding it but not as bad) and flying changes the gravity which makes people have to adapt to that.

Is a stage ban worthy if it makes you adapt to something that is nowhere else in the game? Or perhaps I should word it as makes you adapt to something that changes the way your character is played? I'm pretty sure this is the only stage in Smash 4 with ice and therefore low traction and the only one that affects gravity (Brawl had Summit, Spear Pillar, and Pirate Ship which had gravity changes and ice for Summit but they had other issues too). I suppose I could ask the same about Kalos and it's ability to make people metal but that stage actually has hazards, lots of them too.

It's not like Warioware where the changes are random, nor is it like Kalos where it only rewards players with a change if they touch a certain spot. The flying affects everyone no matter where you are and the ice is largely the same, although obviously not for the edges and the air. Players don't have to like the stage but not liking it isn't a reason to ban it. Heck Halberd is legal (as a counterpick but legal nonetheless) and that stage has hazards that target specific players!

Another thing I'm looking at is the way a match would play out on that stage. I'm pretty sure current rules are 2 stock 5 min? So from the start of the match until 4:00 it'd be default, then until 3:30 it'd be one of the others, then default until 2:30, a change until 2:00, default until 1:00, a change until 0:30 and default until time which rarely happens anyways (but could happen more here possibly). This means you only have to deal with 3 of the 4 changes in any given match at most (does it follow a pattern or can it pick the same ones two times in a row or go something like ice-ground-ice? I haven't checked)...unless I'm mistaken.

TL;DR Why was ps2 banned in brawl? Given the changes should it still be banned? Is a stage banworthy if it makes you adapt to unique things or things that change the way characters are played? Sorry for my first post being a wall of text here!

 

[KlefkiHolder]

About that whole too many stages thing....

That isn't my opinion, but one that I've seen stated a lot by PM players, so.... Don't shoot the messenger.

 

[Omegaphoenix]

Been lurking here for a while since I enjoy the discussion that goes on in here and I've got questions in regards to PS2. First off, why was it banned in Brawl? There's no direct hazards, no permanent walkoffs and no permanent walls. I'm guessing it's just because in that game each phase aside from the default caused too much of a problem? Ice increased tripping and made people have to get used to different traction, electric forced stage control, ground had a wall for easy chaingrabs and infinites and flying slowed down the already slow pace of the game.

Now in Smash 4 a few of those things have changed: tripping is gone so all ice does is change traction which isn't strictly a bad thing, electric's conveyor belts have been slowed down I think? Maybe everyone just moves faster but the forced stage control is still there, ground isn't an issue since chaingrabs and infinites against walls are gone and everyone falls and altogether moves faster so flying isn't as bad.

The worst I can see from each phase aside from default is ice makes people have to adapt to new traction for 30 seconds, ground could have stalling (can't be any worse than the stalling in fire of ps1), electric forces stage control for the middle of the stage (much like how Norfair can force stage control over one platform with lava surrounding it but not as bad) and flying changes the gravity which makes people have to adapt to that.

Is a stage ban worthy if it makes you adapt to something that is nowhere else in the game? Or perhaps I should word it as makes you adapt to something that changes the way your character is played? I'm pretty sure this is the only stage in Smash 4 with ice and therefore low traction and the only one that affects gravity (Brawl had Summit, Spear Pillar, and Pirate Ship which had gravity changes and ice for Summit but they had other issues too). I suppose I could ask the same about Kalos and it's ability to make people metal but that stage actually has hazards, lots of them too.

It's not like Warioware where the changes are random, nor is it like Kalos where it only rewards players with a change if they touch a certain spot. The flying affects everyone no matter where you are and the ice is largely the same, although obviously not for the edges and the air. Players don't have to like the stage but not liking it isn't a reason to ban it. Heck Halberd is legal (as a counterpick but legal nonetheless) and that stage has hazards that target specific players!

Another thing I'm looking at is the way a match would play out on that stage. I'm pretty sure current rules are 2 stock 5 min? So from the start of the match until 4:00 it'd be default, then until 3:30 it'd be one of the others, then default until 2:30, a change until 2:00, default until 1:00, a change until 0:30 and default until time which rarely happens anyways (but could happen more here possibly). This means you only have to deal with 3 of the 4 changes in any given match at most (does it follow a pattern or can it pick the same ones two times in a row or go something like ice-ground-ice? I haven't checked)...unless I'm mistaken.

TL;DR Why was ps2 banned in brawl? Given the changes should it still be banned? Is a stage banworthy if it makes you adapt to unique things or things that change the way characters are played? Sorry for my first post being a wall of text here!

Personally, I think the way PS2 can force changes in play style to adapt to the stage changes can be both a good and a bad thing. I personally like how the stage transformations all offer different situations that players can take advantage of, but to use that requires practice with the stage, and so because not a lot of people play on PS2, no one adapts, and the stage is seen as unwieldy and damaging to competitive play. Down goes the Banhammer, PS2 is banned, for good most likely.

I think PS2 is good, as even if the stage transformations were super disruptive, the base stage is just that good, and it comes in at least 2/3rds of the time. I think the necessary adaptations make PS2 an interesting stage that deserves to be used because it has a heavy emphasis on stage knowledge and how the players can use the transformations to their advantage.

 

[webbedspace]

How can this even be a problem?

Basically, having two stages that have a very similar structure means that striking becomes more complicated than necessary - both have to be struck to effectively eliminate that structure, and the number of strikes may need to be increased to make this fair.

Personally, I think the alternative solution should be to treat the similar stages as identical, because if they're close enough to ban one of them, they're close enough to have their other differences ignored. The omegas are a relevant example: they're treated as indistinguishable from FD or ΩPT in most tournaments.

 

[leekslap]

I know this is beating a dead horse, but here is my cut down and hopefully last 3DS stagelist :

Starter Stages :
- Final Destination and Omega stages
- Battlefield
- Yoshi's Island
Counterpicks :
- Prism Tower
- Arena Ferox
- Tomodachi Life
- Brinstar : This one barely made the list and could even be up to the TO whether it is banned. Yes it has been banned before, but in Melee it was always a good stage and in Brawl it was because of Meta Knight. Only bad thing IMO is that it can break apart. Lava is predictable and allows for unique gameplay.

Now the stages that I really tried with, but are questionable at best :

- Paper Mario : This whole stage is a bitter sweet expierience. You have parts that you wish were in a stage in Project M or something then walkoffs, hazardous transitions, windboxes, camping spots, moving ledges, and that stupid Bowser head. Not that fun or popular so banned.

- Reset Bomb Forest : The main reason this stage could be banned is because Pikachu, one of the best characters in Smash 4, is beyond broken in this stage. You thought Diddy Kong was impossible? You thought Rosalina was impossible? Holy nutcakes! Don't sleep on Pikachu no matter the stage. Might be legal, but Pikachu already has a good stage in Tomodachi so... banned.

- Corneria : This stage is hazardous no matter where you play. The Arwing/Wolfen can really mess you up since it comes out very often. At first I thought it would be an interesting combo tool like the Combo Cannon( Halberd ) in Brawl and the **** tent ( Hyrule Castle ) in 64, but it's too unpredictable to be used intentionally even though it comes very often. The laser the Great Fox shoots is way too powerful and comes out slightly too much. I kinda wanted it for it's smallness and unforgiving ledges, but with all that said, it's as if the stage edgeguards for you! Not to mention the uneven terrain and wall can really screw you over. Still a fun stage that makes for intense and salty matches if the opponent doesn't decide to camp on the right side. Banned, but the most fun banned stage for me.

- Mute City : Another fun stage, but it's road floor thing makes recovering a stranger thing. Along with it's very limited vision of offstage, the hazardous road makes edgeguarding a guessing game. I could say more, but the point is this stage is banned for sure.

- Rainbow Road : Basically a worse version of Prism Tower or Mute City Melee with Mario Kart instead of F Zero and walkoffs. BANNED.

Honorable mention is Pac Maze but circle camp/runaway is too strong, pellets are distracting, and ghosts are obstrusive. Whether it is fun or not is up to you.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Just so folks know, Hypest has a poll up for general tournament rules that includes stages. Just mentioning it since folks here always seem to like to provide feedback.

 

[Piford]

Just so folks know, Hypest has a poll up for general tournament rules that includes stages. Just mentioning it since folks here always seem to like to provide feedback.

So the question about Omega stages got me thinking, can we figure out which is the most "neutral" omega stage? You know taking into account all things like wall jumping and pushing opponents under the stage. I think one of the ones that are like floating but have a pillar in the middle would be best because they act like floating, but they prevent scrooging. The only ones that I can think of are Pyrosphere, Pokemon Stadium 2, and Gaur Plains. I also think we should pick a stage that is viewer friendly, so it should be a stage people like and one that's not already legal. I think we should pick from the list of these as they seem to be the best for viewers.

Woolly World
Jungle Hijinx
Temple
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Norfair
Orbital Gate Assault
Kalos Pokemon League
Port Town Aero Dive
Onett
Boxing Ring
Gaur Plains
Pilotwings
Wily Castle

 

[LiteralGrill]

Omegas

If I ha my way, I'd pick Great Cave Offensive. It's the most popular omega from my previous poll, has the frictions of BOTH Omegas (woah...), looks visually nice, and I think covers that semi wall but not kinda thing.

 

[Piford]

If I ha my way, I'd pick Great Cave Offensive. It's the most popular omega from my previous poll, has the frictions of BOTH Omegas (woah...), looks visually nice, and I think covers that semi wall but not kinda thing.

I think a lot of people don't like the ones that have grass on it, which is why I didn't include it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm watching live gameplay right now that is being recorded and will be on youtube that should show that the tree on Duck Hunt is over-centralizing because all combat is based only on control of the tree. If a player gets the lead, it makes sense it seems to only camp the tree from what we are seeing. Rosalina is showing this off and it's shutting down a sizeable portion of the cast pretty hard. We probably wont have videos of every matchup, but when it's up I wanna show it here. This is showing me that the stage may really be an issue.

 

[19_]

I'm watching live gameplay right now that is being recorded and will be on youtube that should show that the tree on Duck Hunt is over-centralizing because all combat is based only on control of the tree. If a player gets the lead, it makes sense it seems to only camp the tree from what we are seeing. Rosalina is showing this off and it's shutting down a sizeable portion of the cast pretty hard. We probably wont have videos of every matchup, but when it's up I wanna show it here. This is showing me that the stage may really be an issue.

This makes me super sad duck hunt is one of my favorite stages. I really hope it can be salvaged.