Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[LiteralGrill]

Anyways, I hate double posting but I want to let you guys know I was told by some Hypest players I would be receiving videos that will show me that Duck Hunt as well as Kongo Jungle have camping issues that can hurt more then just Little Mac, like possibly mess with 5-10 characters as an almost auto lose pick.

So, there's that to look forward to.

Also I had the fun of taking Zero Suit Samus (who I haven't touched till the time of) and making a match on Skyloft take 4 minutes before a single hit was landed. I may be able to see the concerns people have mentioned now, some of the traveling layouts and stops really are super powerful for highly mobile characters. We proceeded to play more matches with slow vs mobile and it was all just about the same level of badness. The matches aren't unplayable, but they certainly aren't good competition either.

I'll have to wait on the videos for the first too and do more testing on Skyloft, but I'm giving fair warning that these stages may not be as great as people once perceived.

 

[Piford]

Skyloft is only campy when people don't punish camping. It's pretty easy on almost all of the transformations if you know which spots to stand in where people are camping.

This

is the only area that I have trouble with as the only thing you lose by camping (next to the wall under the platform) is stage control. Giving up stage control probably isn't even worth the 15 seconds you gain from camping anyways. People learning to camp has to come before people learning to punish camping. You need to keep in mind how the stage moves in order to effectively punish. Like on this

its easy to punish (circle)camping by standing on the top. The camper sits on the bottom until the stage comes up, and because the rock is a giant solid object, it pushes the camper in either direction and allows him almost no movement. Utilize the lack of space and punish hard. Once people start punishing the camping, people won't camp because you don't gain anything from it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Piford all I know is that I scrambled around for a solid 4 minutes without getting a hit scored against me. The moving transformations have some that are better then others as well. I'm still on the fence here, the stage could be reasonably banned if your character can't use it and other such campy stages were less frequent on the list.

Also to note, Kongo Jungle 64 is now doubles only at Apex.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Do you have a link to the Kongo change, or did they just update the rules?

Something like this would probably be changed by either some big video or some internal testing.

 

[Piford]

@ Piford all I know is that I scrambled around for a solid 4 minutes without getting a hit scored against me. The moving transformations have some that are better then others as well. I'm still on the fence here, the stage could be reasonably banned if your character can't use it and other such campy stages were less frequent on the list.

Also to note, Kongo Jungle 64 is now doubles only at Apex.

I don't see how managed to camp on this

at all. I can understand against players who don't know how to punish camping on some of these that it's very easy, but some of them just seem nearly impossible. But really every stage can be really campy if the opponent isn't that good. My friend refused to believe that Final Destination was easy to camp on, so I took Sonic (who I don't play) against his ganondorf (his main) and just ran around and avoided action. It took 7 minutes for him to get the first kill (clock was set to 8). I just kinda spin dashed all over the stage and used spring to stay high enough to avoid his attacks. I always made sure I had less damage than him to make sure I won at time out. If he got to close I just shielded and then spring out of shield and continued to spin dash.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Piford yeah, I didn't say they all were, I said some weren't as great as others. I'm not saying the stage should be banned, but it can be troublesome in some matchups.

Also, had some personal work with Duck Hunt today as I await the amazing video footage I was promised. Let it be known that it is VERY easy for a match to ONLY be about who has the tree. It's a very centralizing feature of the stage. Totally broken? I'm not sure yet, but it's certainly creating some playstyles that are not really good for competition from what I'm seeing.

 

[Piford]

@ Piford yeah, I didn't say they all were, I said some weren't as great as others. I'm not saying the stage should be banned, but it can be troublesome in some matchups.

Also, had some personal work with Duck Hunt today as I await the amazing video footage I was promised. Let it be known that it is VERY easy for a match to ONLY be about who has the tree. It's a very centralizing feature of the stage. Totally broken? I'm not sure yet, but it's certainly creating some playstyles that are not really good for competition from what I'm seeing.

I know what you were saying, but managing to avoid conflict on that section (along with some other sections) twice?

 

[LiteralGrill]

I know what you were saying, but managing to avoid conflict on that section (along with some other sections) twice?

even if you couldn't for that period of time, and managed to on almost every other bad part a huge majority of the match would be spent out of conflict.

 

[Piford]

even if you couldn't for that period of time, and managed to on almost every other bad part a huge majority of the match would be spent out of conflict.

I understand the concern, but since you managed to do it, it seems like the person you played against probably wasn't that good (sorry if thats a bad claim and they are actually good). I think Skyloft would only really see camping from a mid level player against a low level player. Two low level players probably aren't good enough to camp, or might not even think about camping. Two mid level players are probably good enough to camp, but can most camping that could occur. Two high level players could easily punish camping, so none should occur. A high level player against a low level one probably could camp, but it's not really worth it since they are skilled enough to win without it. A high level player against a mid level player probably wouldn't camp since they can be punished and they are better enough to the point where the risk of being punished isn't worth the reward from camping. So the only time camping might happen is a mid level player against a low level player as a low level player shouldn't be able to properly punish and camping probably guarantees the win for the mid level player.

 

[Sux]

Following from talks of it previously, Windy Hill Zone is very odd for Wario. His bike will pass through the springs on the side and then he hits the underside of the spring and gets bounced down. I don't know why it only bounces the bike down, not up

 

[J_the_Man]

So after watching all of the tournaments videos and reading Capps post, I was all set to write up my current thought. Then I remembered that I'm not going to be able to post basically at all this week, so I decided to rush my write-up. So I ranked every stage based on how competitive I think they are. It doesn't quite express my thoughts and is kinda half-baked, but it's the best I can do with my time. So, you can find my write-up here. I might be able to post a bit more after this and discuss it.

I love your writeup; agree with most of it. I disagree with your analysis on Garden of Hope. The Aristocrab is easily predictable and easily dodged by jumping over him. The Tea Cup and Twig randomly change sides from match to match. Whichever side the tea cup is on, the Aristocrab will approach from that opposite side the whole match. There is plenty of warning regardless which side it approaches. If it approaches from the left, it comes in from the background, and you make the appropriate adjustment before it enters the stage. If it approaches from the right, the screen will zoom out and bubbles will come from the right before the Aristocrab enters the stage. The Aristocrab will also SD if the bridge is out, so if it approaches from the right screen and the bridge is out, it's a non-factor.

Edit: I am embarrassed by what I said and retract everything because my analysis was foolishly on one playthrough. That being said, the Aristocrab, though it randomly appears from both sides, comes with plenty of warning.

 

[Piford]

I love your writeup; agree with most of it. I disagree with your analysis on Garden of Hope. The Aristocrab is easily predictable and easily dodged by jumping over him. The Tea Cup and Twig randomly change sides from match to match. Whichever side the tea cup is on, the Aristocrab will approach from that opposite side the whole match. There is plenty of warning regardless which side it approaches. If it approaches from the left, it comes in from the background, and you make the appropriate adjustment before it enters the stage. If it approaches from the right, the screen will zoom out and bubbles will come from the right before the Aristocrab enters the stage. The Aristocrab will also SD if the bridge is out, so if it approaches from the right screen and the bridge is out, it's a non-factor.

Edit: I am embarrassed by what I said and retract everything because my analysis was foolishly on one playthrough. That being said, the Aristocrab, though it randomly appears from both sides, comes with plenty of warning.

Yeah he does have tons of warning, but he still wipes the stage completely. The main problem is he kills early and its really hard for some characters with bad jump heights to avoid it without putting themselves into a bad position.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I understand the concern, but since you managed to do it, it seems like the person you played against probably wasn't that good (sorry if thats a bad claim and they are actually good). I think Skyloft would only really see camping from a mid level player against a low level player. Two low level players probably aren't good enough to camp, or might not even think about camping. Two mid level players are probably good enough to camp, but can most camping that could occur. Two high level players could easily punish camping, so none should occur. A high level player against a low level one probably could camp, but it's not really worth it since they are skilled enough to win without it. A high level player against a mid level player probably wouldn't camp since they can be punished and they are better enough to the point where the risk of being punished isn't worth the reward from camping. So the only time camping might happen is a mid level player against a low level player as a low level player shouldn't be able to properly punish and camping probably guarantees the win for the mid level player.

I wanted to say something to the effect of "camping on Skyloft is not especially good" and was at a loss for how to articulate why. This post I find remarkably insightful, and I agree 100%. I also think camping the tree on Duck Hunt mostly goes the same way as this; unless you're in a worst case scenario match-up, just hanging out way above your opponent only really pays off in that very specific mid level versus low level situation you're describing (and to be quite honest, that situation is the main one in which camping is good in this game in general).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Since he wanted me to do it I'll tag @ LiteralGrill for the Smashville thread announcement. It's...not that fancy, really, but come on. Smashville.

Also I updated the Lylat Cruise thread with the information presented in additional topics linked here. My thanks to all involved.

 

[Locke 06]

Question: Is Big Battlefield too big for doubles?

 

[Asdioh]

I've played big battlefield in singles (idk why it's legal but our local stagelist is jank) and it hasn't actually been too bad. It can probably be abused by the likes of sonic but I haven't seen that happen yet. I imagine it's perfectly fine for doubles.

 

[webbedspace]

I'm told the reason for Kongo's banning from Apex is just Peach/Jigglypuff barrel camping.
I thought this thread had already dismissed this possibility, though.

Remind me, was barrel-camping possible in Melee, separate from top platform circle-camping?

 

[19_]

I'm told the reason for Kongo's banning from Apex is just Peach/Jigglypuff barrel camping.
I thought this thread had already dismissed this possibility, though.

Remind me, was barrel-camping possible in Melee, separate from top platform circle-camping?

Barrel camping is just another form of staling right?

I think the reason it was banned in melee was because of the size.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

The size in Melee led to circle camping. So it wasn't the size itself that killed it, but the size combined with the layout led to many MUs being skewed by camping.

 

[Terotrous]

Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville

Counterpick Stages

● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
● Omega Stages*

* Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is
banned, Omegas are banned and vice versa

A lot of us are disappointed with it. Especially with how starters were handled.

I would've loved to see skyloft and Wuhu Island included as well.

Halberd over Skyloft? Apex plz.

Starters list is also jokes. This is even more conservative than Brawl. Think about that for a second.

 

[Ticker]

Halberd over Skyloft? Apex plz.

Starters list is also jokes. This is even more conservative than Brawl. Think about that for a second.

What's wrong with conservative?

 

[Omegaphoenix]

The general consensus in this thread is that having a limited number of stages reduces the total number of matchups, limits the value of stage knowledge in the metagame, and eventually contributes to metagame stagnation, due to the fact that it is very hard to "unban" a stage when its been previously banned.

AA gave a good post a while back about how he played G&W in Brawl, and as stages got progressively banned because Meta Knight destroyed everyone on those stages, the remaining stages tended to be stages that G&W was terrible on, so it artificially caused G&W to drop in competitive tier lists, as he only had his bad stages.

Ice Climbers, on the other hand, rose as all their bad stages got banned, and eventually the metagame just got dominated by MK and IC.

 

[Terotrous]

What's wrong with conservative?

Conservative is fine, but that list isn't even conservative, it's paranoid.

 

[thehard]

There's a lot to be said for experimentation early in a ruleset. I think even periodic testing of some banned stages should happen, as meta surrounding the ban reason may very well change.

As long as TOs don't take Apex rules as law things are fine though.

Also, T&C is apparently a CP because of the moving platforms that can carry you off past the blast zones... maybe don't stand on them as the stage telegraphs its transition...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Conservative is fine, but that list isn't even conservative, it's paranoid.

No, I'm Paranoid.

There's a lot to be said for experimentation early in a ruleset. I think even periodic testing of some banned stages should happen, as meta surrounding the ban reason may very well change.

As long as TOs don't take Apex rules as law things are fine though.

Also, T&C is apparently a CP because of the moving platforms that can carry you off past the blast zones... maybe don't stand on them as the stage telegraphs its transition...

Town & City doesn't telegraph its transitions per se, but they do follow predictable timers so eh.

 

[thehard]

Yeah poor word choice on my part. Still a good example of paranoia. The ENTIRE tournament would be ruined if someone got killed via the platforms, obviously

 

[ぱみゅ]

There's a lot to be said for experimentation early in a ruleset. I think even periodic testing of some banned stages should happen, as meta surrounding the ban reason may very well change.

As long as TOs don't take Apex rules as law things are fine though.

Good luck trying to find a TO and a community wanting to experiment.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Good luck trying to find a TO and a community wanting to experiment.

I-I'm here ;-;

 

[webbedspace]

I've already seen four tourneys switch to Apex rules, even ones with formerly generous stagelists. I've been assured they're just doing it to help their top-rank competitors train for Apex, but, heh, will they actually spontaneously unban Kongo come February? Why would they dare touch an Accursed Stage?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah poor word choice on my part. Still a good example of paranoia. The ENTIRE tournament would be ruined if someone got killed via the platforms, obviously

I dearly hope this is sarcastic.

I've already seen four tourneys switch to Apex rules, even ones with formerly generous stagelists. I've been assured they're just doing it to help their top-rank competitors train for Apex, but, heh, will they actually spontaneously unban Kongo come February? Why would they dare touch an Accursed Stage?

If I were you I'd make a point of reminding him about this frequently up through Apex itself.

 

[thehard]

I dearly hope this is sarcastic.

It was!!

 

[webbedspace]

The sacred game 1 must be kept clean and pure. Games 2 and 3, meanwhile, are the jank games where getting carried away by platforms is simply the fault of the matchup.

 

[thehard]

I'm worried about Skyloft in regards to legality...seems like it's being held back by apathy more than anything.

 

[19_]

I'm worried about Skyloft in regards to legality...seems like it's being held back by apathy more than anything.

KJ64 (in singles) and Skyloft are great stages that should be legal. They should be top priority before anything else.

 

[Locke 06]

Skyloft and Wuhu are new traveling stages. Very few people have taken the time to fully understand them, which is understandable since people don't even understand their own characters.

I really like the two stages, but in a competitive setting, I'm a little hesitant to go there just because of a lack of practice on the stage. When training and figuring out what my character can do, I'll likely be on FD or BF because the stage is static. Less variables for me to deal with is good when I'm still trying to learn my character.

 

[Piford]

Skyloft and Wuhu are new traveling stages. Very few people have taken the time to fully understand them, which is understandable since people don't even understand their own characters.

I really like the two stages, but in a competitive setting, I'm a little hesitant to go there just because of a lack of practice on the stage. When training and figuring out what my character can do, I'll likely be on FD or BF because the stage is static. Less variables for me to deal with is good when I'm still trying to learn my character.

But then they should still be legal because the players who have taken the time learn the stage should be rewarded for their skill instead of it being cast aside because other players didn't feel like learning the stage. We shouldn't just add it later because players are better; that will just discourage players from playing it even more. I'm pretty sure that's not really what you intended to say, but I wanted to get what I said out there regardless.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I look at it the other way around. If I'm still learning my character, I want to be very sure I'm not learning stage specific patterns as my core gameplay; if I were going to practice on only one stage, it would be Skyloft simply due to the variety in the geography. After all, I play spatial control; if I play a ton of games in a row on Battlefield, I know I'm teaching myself bad habits because I'm learning specific control patterns to the stage and not to the game as whole. At least Skyloft is forcing me to think about a lot of different spaces in one match to control. I generally do find single stage practice really unproductive though; I'm way more comfortable learning even on bad stages than on too few stages.

It's weird though because I actually do take it to a strange but logical conclusion. I currently still always ban Final Destination like I did in Brawl. I'm not entirely convinced it's a bad Rosalina stage, but figuring out how to deal with the "no platforms" thing when my baseline involves platforms is honestly just too much work when I'm still learning my character; I'm always thinking about how this feature or that feature of the stage coodinates with my moves to control space, but when the feature is "no feature"... that's just weird and makes me confused about how to set up things like uairs and I'd prefer not to deal with it. The thing is that I accept that I'm taking a potential disadvantage in stage selection by spending a stage ban on it automatically; I don't really get why it would make sense for people who feel the same way about Skyloft and Wuhu to get out of jail free on their own uncertainties when some of us feel this way about very different stages and are rightly expected to suck it up...

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I keep forgetting you're a Rosalina main, the avatar fools me. I actually think the worst stage feature for her is damaging hazards in general, since they can really mess with Luma. (Weirdly, Luma is completely immune to 9-Volt on Gamer.)

But can we maybe convince some of the big names in Smash to get over here and participate in the discussion?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I keep forgetting you're a Rosalina main, the avatar fools me. I actually think the worst stage feature for her is damaging hazards in general, since they can really mess with Luma. (Weirdly, Luma is completely immune to 9-Volt on Gamer.)

But can we maybe convince some of the big names in Smash to get over here and participate in the discussion?

I mean, I also play with customs. Shooting Star Bits work together with stage hazards really nicely; the fire form on Kalos especially is just fantastic for Rosalina, but stuff like Norfair fire pillars too just provide me cover to open fire. Further, a lot of players get super scared around hazards, and that tends to create the perfect hesitations to drop Luma Warp on them (which obviously doesn't care about intermittent hazards); I view Luma in general as extra advantageous on any stage that encourages slower play. The only likely legal hazards stage is Halberd though, and I haven't had issues with Luma dying there. The claw's hitbox is small and targeted enough that as long as you block the claw and don't do something irresponsible like spotdodge it Luma should always be okay, and you should be getting out of the way of the other two hazards and not trying to block them just in general.

I'm not entirely sold at this point that any stage is particularly bad for her but that BF in particularly really good for her. I just ban FD and SV to be safe since I consider uair her best move and those two stages make using uair the hardest.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I mean, I also play with customs. Shooting Star Bits work together with stage hazards really nicely; the fire form on Kalos especially is just fantastic for Rosalina, but stuff like Norfair fire pillars too just provide me cover to open fire. Further, a lot of players get super scared around hazards, and that tends to create the perfect hesitations to drop Luma Warp on them (which obviously doesn't care about intermittent hazards); I view Luma in general as extra advantageous on any stage that encourages slower play. The only likely legal hazards stage is Halberd though, and I haven't had issues with Luma dying there. The claw's hitbox is small and targeted enough that as long as you block the claw and don't do something irresponsible like spotdodge it Luma should always be okay, and you should be getting out of the way of the other two hazards and not trying to block them just in general.

I'm not entirely sold at this point that any stage is particularly bad for her but that BF in particularly really good for her. I just ban FD and SV to be safe since I consider uair her best move and those two stages make using uair the hardest.

It's more the idea that if you send Luma out and then a hazard pops in between the two of you, you can't recall Luma until it's done with because otherwise it'll literally just run into the hitbox. Then there's Norfair's lava floor where if you get careless and let Luma touch it, it's toast because it'll just keep falling on it until it dies. But that's whatever, like you said Halberd is the only likely-to-be-legal stage with a hazard that could feasibly get in the way.

On a different note I'm slowly running out of "makes sense" stages to cover next. The ones that don't have their own threads are:

Spoiler: List

Battlefield
Big Battlefield
Final Destination
Mario Circuit (Brawl)
Jungle Hijinxs
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
Pyrosphere
Port Town Aero Dive
Yoshi's Island (Melee)
The Great Cave Offensive
Halberd
Pokemon Stadium 2
Onett
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Skyworld
Boxing Ring
Gaur Plain
75M
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wily Castle
Pac-Land

I want to save Final Destination for last as a sort of apropos joke, but the rest...? (Although honestly I could get Battlefield and Big Battlefield done tonight if I wanted to, they're not exactly complex.) That said I do want to cover every stage if only for completion's sake, so yes I will eventually be making threads on Palutena's Temple, Pac-Land, and so forth. No, I'm not looking forward to it.