Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Linq]

I'm curious if for sake of fairness since we're considering making some debatable stages legal, if anyone has tried arguing that generally unquestionable stages, such as FD (minus background) Battlefield and Smashville, should be moved to counterpick or banned entirely? I think it would be interesting if some people played Devil's Advocate and tried to get these "neutral" stages banned with all their might.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm curious if for sake of fairness since we're considering making some debatable stages legal, if anyone has tried arguing that generally unquestionable stages, such as FD (minus background) Battlefield and Smashville, should be moved to counterpick or banned entirely? I think it would be interesting if some people played Devil's Advocate and tried to get these "neutral" stages banned with all their might.

I've half-jokingly suggested in the past that someone hold a tournament with all stages legal except for Battlefield, Smashville, and FD/Omegas.

It's certainly possible to argue for moving FD away from starter status, the lack of platforms is by far the most polarizing feature a stage can have short of damaging hazards, I think. Smashville I guess you could argue the balloon screws up Ness's recovery sometimes? And I got nothing on Battlefield.

 

[Pazx]

I personally think Wii Fit Studio, Coliseum and Mario Galaxy should be starter stages with Delfino, Windy Hill Zone and Wuhu Island counterpicks. 6 stages is a good number, right?

 

[BBC7]

I think Kalos and Kingdom U are lovely stages.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I personally think Wii Fit Studio, Coliseum and Mario Galaxy should be starter stages with Delfino, Windy Hill Zone and Wuhu Island counterpicks. 6 stages is a good number, right?

Needs to be an odd number for striking purposes. Preferably 5, 9, 13, etc. (every other odd number, that is) for reasons I'm not entirely clear on.

 

[Piford]

Needs to be an odd number for striking purposes. Preferably 5, 9, 13, etc. (every other odd number, that is) for reasons I'm not entirely clear on.

Odd numbers like 3, 7, ect give an advantage to the player striking second. Think about it like this, with three stages, player 1 has to ban whichever stage is the worst for him, but that might be the stage player 2 wanted to ban as well. So if player 1 bans the stage player 2 wants to, then player 2 gets to ban his second worst stage and plays on his best stage. It's always better to have 5 starter stages than 3 even if those 2 more stages are arguably less neutral because the advantage given to player 2 makes the stage selection process less neutral.

 

[Uniit]

The formula to best number of stage for striking purpose is : 4n + 1, with n a integer.

If we only have 4 neutral stage it's maybe better to make it 3. A couterpick stage is a stage giving avantage to a character over another, so it can be unfair to have a cp at the starter list for those who play character who are bad in this cp.

The concequence can be that some character can be left behind.

Well, we can see that with lylat, where Ness or Rosa can be gimped while recovering. Thus forced to strike this out, so being at a disavantage.

But, starter stage have the same issue, with character being bad on more that half starter stage (remembering someone saying that brawl g&w was bad on BF FD and SV, so always being at disavantage game 1, sorry for forgetting who it was).

 

[Pazx]

Ness's recovery is awful on all arguable starter stages except Duck Hunt, which is awful for Ness anyway.

I'm not entirely sold on the whole 5, 9, 13, 17 number of stages required to strike as I think the advantage is negligible. With a number like 7, you have enough room to play mindgames (much easier than with 5 stages) which are enough to overcome any supposed advantage.

 

[Uniit]

I kidda disagree on Ness recovery on other strater stage, but he's not my main, and this is not revelant, so...

Every odd number is fine for two educated player who know what stage is good or bad for them based on match up. It would always be the stage in the center of the two's ordered list. However, it's not always the case, as people like and hate some stages. With odd number like 3, 7, 11, 15 and so, player 2 (or whoever don't strike first) is at advantage because striking after the other. Obvious example is 3, but 7 does it too.

Well again it's minor. Sure we can aleviate this by opposing player who choose port etc... In fact i don't mind 7 (but i do for 3), but some can.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Somewhat relevant to the Apex stage list, I did a thread on Duck Hunt. I plan to do Town & City next for basically the same reasons, and because it's a simple enough stage anyway.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Why omega palutena though?

Edit: This was an accidental post. ^^;

Anyway, @ ParanoidDrone good research as always. Interesting to see where the dog can appear from.

 

[Man Li Gi]

Haven't been here in a while, but is KJ64 a starter yet? If it ain't, I don't wanna see this thread.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Haven't been here in a while, but is KJ64 a starter yet? If it ain't, I don't wanna see this thread.

I think we go back and forth on it. However, in APEX it's a counterpick.

 

[Man Li Gi]

I think we go back and forth on it. However, in APEX it's a counterpick.

I haven't been keeping up with the Apex ruleset, but what stages are starters and CPs?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

I haven't been keeping up with the Apex ruleset, but what stages are starters and CPs?

Starter Stages
● Battlefield
● Final Destination
● Smashville

Counterpick Stages

● Castle Siege
● Delfino Plaza
● Duck Hunt
● Halberd
● Kongo Jungle 64
● Lylat Cruise
● Town & City
● Omega Stages*

* Treated as Final Destination in banning phase. If Final Destination is
banned, Omegas are banned and vice versa

A lot of us are disappointed with it. Especially with how starters were handled.

I would've loved to see skyloft and Wuhu Island included as well.

 

[leekslap]

READ THIS BEFORE READING ACTUAL REPLY: So how done are we with the 3DS stagelist? I'm new to this thread and I've only read the OP so I don't know how much this has been discussed. Have we worked out neutrals and counterpicks and things like that? Well I guess I will give my thoughts anyway. I will base my thoughts off the stage list in the OP.

Neutrals :
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Omega Form stages w/ walls since the ones without are kinda irrelevant
- Yoshi's Island ( Brawl )
- Prism Tower

These stages generally don't give big advantages to certain characters, and if they do, there's always another to choose. Or it's probably a bad matchup so switch characters you dummy! Prism Tower does have some jank with the starting walkoff and transitions but nothing too bad.

Counter Picks :
- Tomodachi Life : I think this one is especially underrated. There's no hazards and you can get used to the weird way the rooms fade in and out. However, the way the platforms are could cause sharking, easy off the top kills if on the top platform, and runaway/circle camp, so if that is not an advantage for certain characters, I don't know what is.
- Brinstar : This one's always been a personal favorite since it rides the fine line between legal and competitive, and crazy and fun. The lava is really predictable and not overly strong like in Mute City from Melee. However, the organic looking pillars and things have hurtboxes so that could mess with projectiles and the platform layout can really help out with killing. This is the perfect stage for your strong close combat characters to deal with projectile characters with the bonus of lava combos. I doubt it will ever happen though since projectile spammers will always ban this stage. Also perfect stage for multi jumpers because of sharking.
- Reset Bomb Forest : A pretty cool stage at first but then walkoff, weird structures in the air that could cause stage spike combo shenanigans, and a weird centipede thing that kills you. This stages is pretty amazing for aerial fighters but it's a nightmare for Little Mac and Dr. Mario! We might have to have a rule that states that the weird structures should be destroyed ASAP after the walk off part fades away since they are pretty disjusting and more obstructive than any other part.

The could-be-legal-but-not-very-good:
- Arena Ferox : I'm not the biggest fan of this stage since I don't see the point of it but people say it is good so OK I guess. Probably just gonna have to wait out some sections of it like in Melee with Pokemon Stadium. It's a fine stage and I think it could even be a neutral.
- Corneria - Always been banned before but now walls are less abusive so this stage could work and it is clearly counter pick material but nobody likes it.
- Paper Mario - Hazards aren't too bad and certain parts of the stage are very yes to me.
- Tortimer Island - Fruit can be ignored, shark doesn't come out very long at all, and Kapp'n isn't as obtrusive if you play closer to the center. Could be neutral since counterpicking with this one is rolling the lottery because layout changes every time you pick it.

Every other stage is definetly banned IMO including Rainbow Road @ Raziek please ban it lol. So it's a lot different than my starting stagelist but that's how it came out.

Banning for neutrals could be 1-2-1, winner gets 2 or 3 bans during counterpicking, and you will have to tell them which ones you ban now or some other way. That's my 2 cents, so even though it looks like I'm trying to create the end all stagelist, I'm not so take it with a grain of salt and don't get mad since it's just my opinion.

I've been hearing some stuff about the 3DS version being dead competively and it saddens me. Some people can't afford the Wii U version so please don't say that.

So since I forgot certain things and did extra testing here is my second stagelist I guess:

NEUTRALS :
- Final Destination ( can just be an Omega stage similar to it since the backround is weird )
- Omega form stage w/ walls
- Battlefield
- Yoshi's Island
- Arena Ferox
COUNTERPICKS :
- Prism Tower : Forgot that this stage is godlike for sharking, and that its transitions can cause clutch moments that save you when recovering. A very recovery based stage I would say.
- Tomodachi Life
- Corneria ( OPTIONAL )
- Reset Bomb Forest
- Brinstar
- Rainbow Road( OPTIONAL ) : Even though I was sure this was a bad stage before, I realized it wasn't so bad after further testing. This is the kind of stage that forces you to constantly be in the air whether it is for hazards or sharking.

I think that's as good as it gets, and the stuff I said in my quoted post up there I still stand by, so are we done now? I can't think of any other good stages and I've tested all of them to death.

 

[Pazx]

Snip

I won't comment on most of your stages (because like... 3DS, sorry) but I have a few issues.

1. Do not call starter stages "neutrals". They are not neutral.

2. I have an issue with the fact that you have both FD and Walled Omegas in the starter list. You don't have enough stages to warrant 2 bans, and that means if someone bans FD they can just be taken to an omega stage. I personally enjoy the differences on various Omega stages but they should not be separate entities on any stage list (the way Apex went about it is the only thing about their stage list they got right).

 

[Starcutter]

Hey guys, what about Mushroom Kingdom U as a Counterpick?


....no? okay. :/

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hey guys, what about Mushroom Kingdom U as a Counterpick?


....no? okay. :/

It didn't go well for stage testing honestly, but I don't know about it. It's not liked enough to really stay legal for me at least for now.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Hey guys, what about Mushroom Kingdom U as a Counterpick?


....no? okay. :/

Nabbit is the biggest issue. If he wasn't a thing I'd say yes without a doubt. But he's a very distracting extra entity even if it's difficult to actually get killed by him.

In other news, I made a thread on Town & City. It was...exactly as simple to do as you may expect, so the thread's not exactly long. But it's a stage.

 

[smashmachine]

Hey guys, what about Mushroom Kingdom U as a Counterpick?


....no? okay. :/

no


also people really like DSR don't they

 

[Ben Holt]

I've spoke in favor of Mushroom Kingdom U being allowed, but now after escaping Nabbit at 112%, I am now 100% in favor of MKU being a legal stage. The hazards are about on par with Halberd's lazer cannon.

 

[BBC7]

Let's assemble a list of stages that a stage liberal would allow in competitive play, and see which stages are the most arguable and which are the least. I'm not sure how much this will help but it will at least be interesting to note what stages could be legal to some people, and illegal to others.

- Final Destination
- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield
- Mario Galaxy
- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Delfino Plaza
- Luigi's Mansion
- Mario Circuit U
- Jungle Hijinx
- Kongo Jungle 64
- Skyloft
- Norfair
- Woolly World
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Lylat Cruise
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Kalos Pokemon League
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Gamer
- Coliseum
- Castle Siege
- Halberd
- Town and City
- Garden of Hope
- Smashville
- Miiverse(when it becomes a thing, it looks like Battlefield)
- Windy Hill Zone
- Wii Fit Studio
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Duck Hunt
- Wrecking Crew

Oh...wow. There's a surprising amount of stages that are arguably legal, although I doubt that even 50% of these stages will make the final cut.

EDIT: Added a few stages that I forgot and have been pointed out for.
EDIT 2: I think the list is just about complete at this point.

 

[19_]

I think Kalos and Kingdom U are lovely stages.

Me too but I sadly can't see them in tournaments. Legendarys are very problematic on Kalos leauge especially Registeel.
While Mushroom Kingdom U has those random Urchins, why do they exist, it was so close too being legal, the would be perfect if it were not for those urchins, WHY.

 

[Pazx]

A few high profile Australian Brawl players seem to be very conservative with their stage lists so I've got a little bit less confidence than I would like to have in what might become the Australian standard.

@ BBC7 if I were forced to remove stages from that list one at a time this would be my order:

1. Orbital Gate Assault (genuinely less competitive than Temple imo)
2. Kalos
3. Gamer
4. Mushroom Kingdom
5. Luigi's Mansion
6. Galaxy
7. Mario Circuit U
8. Coliseum
9. Windy Hill
10. Wii Fit Studio
11. Woolly World

This is the cutoff for my preferred stage list which leaves us with 14 (and Miiverse)

11. Norfair
12. Pokemon Stadium 2
13. Delfino
14. Wuhu

Any more stages being removed is absurd.

 

[BBC7]

Let's just all agree that Great Cave Offensive is a great stage
I just realized that I missed Duck Hunt which I'm expecting to be legal.

@ Pazx

I don't actually mind if those stages get removed, I still think we can have a rich selection of stages even if those 10 stages have to go. Makes the game that much more fair, right? Besides, I'm already used to a rather conservative selection of stages, a 3DS tournament I went to only had 4 legal stages. Battlefield, Final Destination, Yoshi's Island, and Prism Tower.

 

[xquqx]

For what it's worth, I'd remove Halberd before Pokemon Stadium 2.
While Halberd will probably be legal due to being legal in brawl, I think it's ridiculous that places have it legal over Wuhu and Skyloft (cough Apex cough).
Unlike some of the other reasonable hazards, Halberd's don't act the exact same way every time. The laser and the claw specifically target one player over the other, forcing one player to take actions that the other doesn't. It really seems like one player is fighting the stage and the other player when the claw decides to target them. Even if you have the better stage control, you can't take advantage of these hazards. The person who gets to take advantage of them is randomly chosen, which I think is too much for the stage to really be fair.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Let's assemble a list of stages that a stage liberal would allow in competitive play, and see which stages are the most arguable and which are the least. I'm not sure how much this will help but it will at least be interesting to note what stages could be legal to some people, and illegal to others.

- Final Destination
- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield
- Mario Galaxy
- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Delfino Plaza
- Luigi's Mansion
- Mario Circuit U
- Kongo Jungle 64
- Skyloft
- Norfair
- Woolly World
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Lylat Cruise
- Kalos Pokemon League
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Gamer
- Coliseum
- Castle Siege
- Halberd
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Miiverse
- Windy Hill Zone
- Wii Fit Studio
- Wuhu Island
- Duck Hunt

Oh...wow. There's a surprising amount of stages that are arguably legal, although I doubt that even 50% of these stages will make the final cut.

Candidate stages you missed are Jungle Hijinx, Garden of Hope, and Pilotwings. (Yes, camping issues, but this is a perhaps outlandishly liberal list.) Also Miiverse technically isn't a thing yet so I'd remove it. That's 29 stages total. I'll be honest, that sort of stage list would be a wet dream for me. But I'm (mostly) realistic and know there's no chance of a good chunk of them being accepted. Even so, here are my thoughts on each of them. For the record, I believe in a simple legal/banned dichotomy and think the starter/counterpick distinction is utter rubbish, so I'm not even going to bother with the latter.

Battlefield: No way is this ever getting banned.

Big Battlefield: Too large for singles IMO, so banned there, but it should be fine for doubles.

Final Destination: Again, no way is this ever getting banned.

Mario Galaxy: It's a walkoff and thus utter poison to most people. The gravity also curves most but not all projectiles, and the inconsistency is jarring to some, although it's far from impossible to learn and adjust to. Now that chaingrabbing is gone, every anti-walkoff argument I've seen revolves around hypotheticals and "such-and-such might happen," which is very shaky grounds for a ban. If camping near the blast zone fishing for throw kills proves to be a degenerately powerful tactic then by all means, ban away. But I will not support a stage ban without evidence.

Mushroom Kingdom U: Nabbit is the big question mark. The transformations are all relatively benign and most of the hazards are simple to avoid. If @ Ben Holt is to be believed, Nabbit is escapable even over 100%, a point in the stage's favor. However, from personal experience, Nabbit is still a major distraction even if he never actually catches anyone. I'm in favor of allowing this stage until something or other proves to be overwhelming, but I suspect it'll end up banned sooner. (Or later. But probably sooner.)

Delfino Plaza: Returning stage from Brawl. The main issue with it there (Meta Knight) was fixed. Therefore it should be legal. Complaining about the water is silly IMO since no character in the game relies on spikes for a kill.

Luigi's Mansion: An interesting mix of high damage potential and high survivability. The ceilings let player rack up huge damage on each other if they fail to tech or tech badly, but the same ceilings can let them survive otherwise fatal hits if the angle is right. (Or wrong.) The fact that the mansion is destructible is a point in the stage's favor, since it gives a unique importance to stage control in cases where one player wants the mansion intact and the other wants it destroyed. I'd like to see this legal.

Mario Circuit U: The worst thing about this stage is the weird glitches that seem to instantly kill players. The track itself forming a wall or ceiling is temporary in all cases, and when the stage is in motion one can predict when the track will be close enough to be a hazard since the stage never deviates from its path except to set players down at one of the transformations. I do not believe there is any character in the game that is so one-dimensional that a single wall or ceiling shuts down all of their kill options. I say legal but acknowledge that others dislike the stage.

Jungle Hijinxs: If this were just the foreground stage it would be a shoo-in. Unfortunately Sakurai likes to mess with us and introduced two-plane stages. Circle camping between the two planes shouldn't be an issue between the barrels exploding on players who try and use them too much and one plane or the other crumbling away temporarily and forcing a retreat to the other half. (The relief barrels provided in these cases are immune to the exploding effect, BTW.) There's a spot in the background that's a suspect for camping potential, but I'll reiterate my stance that I like to see evidence before supporting a ban. The background also has an inherent high-knockback property to account for the larger area. That said, I do expect that this stage will end up banned regardless.

Kongo Jungle 64: Smaller than Melee (or perhaps the player models are just bigger) and I believe the moving platforms go a bit higher as well. That means the camping issues are fixed except in perhaps the most extreme of cases like Peach or Jigglypuff vs. Little Mac or Ganondorf. The barrel is no worse than Randall. Legal.

Skyloft: Probably the best of the 3 main travelling stages. Some of the transformations would be sketchy as standalone stages, but their transient nature means any negative qualities are basically impossible to exploit in a meaningful way. Walkoff camping in particular is just not a thing since doing so leaves you in a terrible position when the stage moves on. Legal.

Norfair: I note that a lot of people who complain about this stage like to single out the large lava wave from the background but fail to notice it can be shielded, spotdodged, countered, and so forth. The lava jets can likewise be shielded although their hitbox lingers quite a bit longer. With the new ledge mechanics, planking is no longer a thing and thus the large number of ledges is not a negative aspect. I say legal.

Woolly World: The walkoff is temporary, so camping it is not a good idea in general. One problem solved. The platform layout is...awkward, to put it lightly, but I haven't seen any examples of successful camping. The worst you can really say about it is that it's very well suited for aerial fighters and that it's big. Even if it's too big for singles, I would like to see people try it out for doubles.

Halberd: Legal in Brawl, Meta Knight is fixed, therefore legal again.

Orbital Gate Assault: I'll be honest, I don't personally like this stage after playing on it a few times. However, it's completely predictable and acts the exact same way every time. It's literally Poke Floats in space with explosions. I therefore support its inclusion.

Lylat Cruise: Legal in Brawl, no reason to ban it here. The tilting is complex but not random, the ship moves in reaction to whatever's going on in the background. It's a complex pattern to be sure, but it's a pattern nonetheless.

Kalos Pokemon League: One of my personal favorite stages. I'd love to see it legal, and again reiterate my stance of "don't ban without evidence," but the sheer number of hazards does not leave me hopeful.

Pokemon Stadium 2: Tripping is gone, so the Ice form is basically fixed. Wall infinites are gone, so the Ground form is fixed. Everyone falls faster, so the Flying form is easier to deal with. And the conveyor belts on the Electric form move slower, so that's fixed too. I say legal.

Coliseum: As I said on Mario Galaxy, I'd want to see evidence of people successfully abusing walkoffs before I support banning them en masse. Another concern that I didn't touch on earlier is certain combos or strings carrying players across the screen for a kill. However, the platforms on Coliseum rise from the bottom and thus can potentially disrupt such tactics. Thus I think Coliseum needs a close look.

Castle Siege: Legal in Brawl, no reason to ban it here. Transformation time is both faster and consistent, yay for improved hardware.

Gamer: Unusually fun, not at all what I expected. 5-Volt is a powerful hazard but also quite easy to avoid. Even throwing players into her line of sight isn't always easy since it only activates at a precise moment. Caves of life formed by randomized stage geometry are a concern but it's possible to No Contest and try again until something acceptable turns up. I'd love to see and/or have some honest matches on here to see what it's like. I doubt it'll ever be allowed but I can dream.

Garden of Hope: The Peckish Aristocrab is honestly pretty big and it's sometimes hard to properly time a dodge or similar evasive maneuver. That said, I'm sure players with more skill than me could avoid it consistently unless someone else hits them into it, and yet again I state my dislike of banning a stage based on maybes.

Town and City: The lovechild of a menage a trois between Battlefield, Final Destination, and Smashville. (Seriously, it has a bit of all 3.) Legal without question.

Smashville: You're kidding, right? Legal.

Wii Fit Studio: See Coliseum minus the bit about platforms disrupting combos. They come from the ceiling here, so they have less of an impact that way. (Speaking of which, they vanish before reaching the upper blast line, so anyone standing on them won't get killed.)

Duck Hunt: The ducks are no worse than Shy Guys on Yoshi's Story or Yoshi's Island Brawl. The dog has predictable timing based on player (in)action toward the ducks, and its location is likewise predictable. The tree is a possible camping spot vs. Ganondorf, Little Mac, and other bad air fighters, but again, evidence is needed to support a ban. Luckily this stage seems to be in vogue right now and I don't forsee an issue there for once.

Pilotwings: Like Jungle Hijinxs, this is a two-plane stage. (Sorry...) Unlike every other time I've harped on about evidence, this time we actually have it! Therefore I'm content supporting a ban due to camping under the wing on the red plane and on the engines of the yellow plane.

Wuhu Island: As I said about Skyloft, a lot of the transformations would be sketchy on their own but their transient nature means it's impossible to really exploit any of them. The glitch on the boat is very hard to replicate and is apparently character-specific to boot, so I don't think it should meaningfully impact any legality debate. I support this stage being legal.

Windy Hill Zone: Camping the windmill is difficult at best since the platforms move and force the camper to change position periodically. The rest of the stage is big but has little going on other than the springs, which in my experience are rarely an issue as long as one remembers they exist. Even if the size is too much for singles, I'd like to see people try it for doubles.

...so yeah, the tl;dr of all that is basically "proof or GTFO" for every questionable stage ever.

 

[Pazx]

The reasons I'm no longer really in favour of having walkoff stages are as follows: matches are quicker, KO's 'feel' cheap, everyone leaves feeling dissatisfied (and I can imagine that would translate even more poorly for spectators) and we've already got Castle Siege and Delfino (both stages are viewed as controversial by our more conservative contemporaries.

I've played enough on perma walkoff stages (and I win a lot, too. Have you seen Ness's throws?) and in a play to win situation I would be very comfortable camping the walkoffs (albeit nervous as it is a high risk playstyle) however I don't think having a permament walkoff stage legal adds anything to the metagame that isn't already provided by Castle Siege or any of the transforming stages (I've seen Delfino picked simply to alleviate recovery issues).

@ ParanoidDrone has BBF actually been tested? It seems like... the only stage you didn't really try to justify your decision on.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm at the point I've played a lot on every stage or at least enough on the really bad ones to have a very good sense of why they're bad and precisely how they're bad. I think stages break into five not very evenly sized groups in this game.

I've said it before, but I really, really just don't get the problems people have with any of these stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone

I really consider all 14 well suited for a conservative stage list and all 14 get my glowing approval as excellent competitive stages. They have super fair, tame, balanced gameplay, and while I've seen a few complaints about this or that, in the end they're all just nitpicks compared to the positives these stages offer. They do have differences among them, but that's just the necessary core of preserving the minimum level of diversity not to damage the game. Banning precisely one for procedural reasons makes sense because it had to be the awkward number of 14; banning more than one of these is just plain dubious with fighting people wanting to do that being my big stage push. I'm very serious; we are hurting the game if we start shedding these guys, and this is where lines in sand should be drawn.

If you want more stages, the following are the "least bad" other stages that probably qualify as "moderate":

Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit
Orbital Gate Assault
Kalos Pokemon League

All four have issues that make them pretty legit for controversy but overall are pretty good stages that any stage liberal is likely to support. I would never be upset at any tournament that had any of these legal and consider them "stage moderate" stages. This does presume people have a high degree of stage knowledge; all four of these stages are pretty decent but require the player to know them VERY well to play this way. All four have awful, ugly gameplay if even one player doesn't truly understand the stage in all of its nuance and how to use it well.

The following stages are the "stage liberal" stages that are good for a more liberal tournament:

Big Battlefield
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Woolly World

These stages introduce elements that are legitimately kinda upsetting or really shake the gameplay dynamics a lot, but they're all fair stages in the end that I would have been fighting for tooth and nail in 2008. Yes, I did mean to include Big Battlefield here; the size is really an issue that matters more than what the stages in the above group have going on.

The following stages pretty definitely make the game worse but are somewhat playable if you just plain insist (the better player should generally win on them even though they're bad stages):

Mario Galaxy
Mario Circuit Brawl
Bridge of Eldin
Pyrosphere
Yoshi's Island
Onett
Coliseum
Skyworld
Garden of Hope
Wii Fit Studio
75m
Wrecking Crew
Pilotwings
Wily Castle

Yeah, 75m is better than you probably think (it was improved a lot from Brawl!) but is still too bad to be legal on even a liberal stage list.

The following stages are not really playable in a reasonable sense and no promises about the better player winning:

Jungle Hijinxs
Temple
Great Cave Offensive
Flat Zone X
Palutena's Temple
Gamer
Boxing Ring
Gaur Plains
PAC-LAND

Yeah, Gamer is supposed to be here; the random chance it can have a hard loop is a deal breaker (the stage has other serious problems as well, but the hard loop is what makes it truly unplayable). I also don't really get the random love Jungle Hijinxs gets; the run-away potential is near infinite, and the stage generally plays worse than PAC-LAND which is saying something.

IMO the biggest problem we have in terms of stages is that stage knowledge is really low for a lot of players. I still run into tons of people who don't know all of the transformations on Skyloft and Wuhu Island (seriously guys, it has been WAY too long not to know), who are really caught up in minor things they haven't explored in depth (like the trivial Wuhu glitch, Windy Hill Zone's gravity, or Skyloft hitting you while moving), or who just don't even know what stages do (like even if you don't like Orbital Gate Assault which is reasonable, you really should have some concept of what's up with it which a lot of people just... don't). This is a big challenge for us as a group; a lot of players just don't play on different stages when practicing and doing friendlies and have a pretty stunning lack of curiosity in general. We need to find a way to communicate to people what's up with stages more effectively than we have been doing, and I'm really not sure how to make it happen.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ Pazx not with another person, but when I sometimes have trouble chasing down the AI, which is not known for its camping ability, then I would expect a PvP fight to be worse. That said I am open to being proven wrong.

@Amazing Ampharos Kalos, really? I must say that is not a stage I ever expected to see in a proposed list like that.

Regarding exposure and spreading of knowledge, I planned to make some sort of stage megathread after I covered all of them, with @Shaya's blessing. Format undecided. A central thread like that could make it easier to distribute or something, IDK.

 

[Jaxas]

So I believe I saw someone earlier in this thread mention this, but they were basically ignored so let me ask again:

I absolutely love Kongo Jungle 64, and I believe that it should be unquestionably legal... if it weren't for Villager.
Villager, with his recovery, can abuse the barrel to camp in a near-unreachable (even unreachable for some, or at least as far as returning from reaching it goes) spot and even if the opponent steals the cannon (how you deal with say Jiggs cannon-camping) they can just continue on to the stage.
If a Villager gets the lead, this could be as strong of a strategy as circle camping on many banned stages such as Temple.

Now, I feel that we need to reach a consensus on whether
A) This is possible (hopefully I'm just missing a reliable way to deal with this) and
B) This is enough to ban the stage (or if it just means that's a guaranteed ban)

 

[xquqx]

So I believe I saw someone earlier in this thread mention this, but they were basically ignored so let me ask again:

I absolutely love Kongo Jungle 64, and I believe that it should be unquestionably legal... if it weren't for Villager.
Villager, with his recovery, can abuse the barrel to camp in a near-unreachable (even unreachable for some, or at least as far as returning from reaching it goes) spot and even if the opponent steals the cannon (how you deal with say Jiggs cannon-camping) they can just continue on to the stage.
If a Villager gets the lead, this could be as strong of a strategy as circle camping on many banned stages such as Temple.

Now, I feel that we need to reach a consensus on whether
A) This is possible (hopefully I'm just missing a reliable way to deal with this) and
B) This is enough to ban the stage (or if it just means that's a guaranteed ban)

I mean, if villager is the only person that can do this to this extreme, and the stage is perfectly fine in most match ups where the other person can't abuse it, you could just always remember to ban the stage vs villager, like how'd you always ban FD vs the ICs in brawl.

 

[Jaxas]

I've said it before, but I really, really just don't get the problems people have with any of these stages:

Battlefield
Final Destination
Delfino Plaza
Kongo Jungle 64
Skyloft
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Pokemon Stadium 2
Castle Siege
Town and City
Smashville
Duck Hunt
Wuhu Island
Windy Hill Zone

The potential complaints I can see with a few stages on this list are
- Halberd's hazards (Actually only the claw, though the laser randomly favoring one player is questionable too)
- Windy Hill Zone (Specifically the random timing of the springs spawning, nothing else)

How would you argue against these points, or do you consider them not important enough to warrant a stage ban?
(Personally I'm using all but Windy Hill Zone for 13 "starter" stages for the Salem Smashfests)

 

[LiteralGrill]

So I believe I saw someone earlier in this thread mention this, but they were basically ignored so let me ask again:

I absolutely love Kongo Jungle 64, and I believe that it should be unquestionably legal... if it weren't for Villager.
Villager, with his recovery, can abuse the barrel to camp in a near-unreachable (even unreachable for some, or at least as far as returning from reaching it goes) spot and even if the opponent steals the cannon (how you deal with say Jiggs cannon-camping) they can just continue on to the stage.
If a Villager gets the lead, this could be as strong of a strategy as circle camping on many banned stages such as Temple.

Now, I feel that we need to reach a consensus on whether
A) This is possible (hopefully I'm just missing a reliable way to deal with this) and
B) This is enough to ban the stage (or if it just means that's a guaranteed ban)

I mentioned this just a bit ago actually. It's VERY hard to pull off consistently but CAN be done. With all the other multi jump characters there really is not enough of a stalling capability. But the match can become a bit annoying with centralizing around the barrel. You can still try to take the barrel from Villager but it's not perfect. This could be one of those "ban this vs villager" or admittedly maybe covered under our rules against stalling in rulesets and that is exactly what you are doing, going out of your way to make a match unplayable.

 

[Piford]

Wouldn't the villager abusing the barrel be against the rules as "stalling is banned." Also, if we make a 13 stage list to FLSS from then we can just remove KJ64 in favor of windy hill zone to ensure this doesn't happen.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Please someone explain the love of Windy Hill for me? No one from the survey really liked it all too much, the springs can kill you at random, the size makes camping and runaway more prevalent... It was a "cp/banned" in the poll but it was really not a stage people wanted. I would be totally be up for removing it just for the springs, dieing completely at random while trying to recover is sucky to say the least.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I hate to double post but please forgive me. Tantalus from Xanadu is hosting an AMA on the subreddit, so if you want to talk to a TO for a very famous tournament series about stages here's a cool chance. I already asked him some questions too. So guys don't be shy he did say ask him anything!

 

[Piford]

Please someone explain the love of Windy Hill for me? No one from the survey really liked it all too much, the springs can kill you at random, the size makes camping and runaway more prevalent... It was a "cp/banned" in the poll but it was really not a stage people wanted. I would be totally be up for removing it just for the springs, dieing completely at random while trying to recover is sucky to say the least.

The springs really can't kill you unless you attempt to use the springs, and in that case it's your fault for attempting to use them. I've never seen them mess up any recoveries without people intending to use it; is there any video of it happening?

 

[LiteralGrill]

The springs really can't kill you unless you attempt to use the springs, and in that case it's your fault for attempting to use them. I've never seen them mess up any recoveries without people intending to use it; is there any video of it happening?

Scenario, you are recovering, spring shows up (as it does at random) then you are hit by the spring down as you try to recover, death. I lack a video (I need to get recording equipment so much) but this is very possible. The springs also tend to shoot downward instead of up so they're more likely to kill you.