Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Kingslime301]

I was pretty sad they don't have Brave new world from Namco X Capcom,
and The Project X Zone Intro Theme Both in Jp, and American Versions.
Who wished those songs to be in smash?
Links:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N54C66NJx8Y Brave New World
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V3RY5YQeHt0

Heck They Don't even have this music from mega man in smash:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozc01WhG_2s
WHAT WERE THEY THINKING?!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ LiteralGrill I think you missed WIi Fit Studio?

 

[Piford]

Camping on the stage was mentioned to be very easy with the solid walls as well especially with the pillars to protect you from certain projectiles.

While I'll probably have more to say once all the percentages are up and I can digest the information, I wanted to quickly make a note on this. I'd say the pillars actually help stop camping. Since the pillars stop projectiles, you can't camp and spam projectiles to avoid approaching. You are forced to make smarter use of your projectiles on the stage, and you really can't projectile camp.

 

[Shadó Chimera / シャドーキメラ]

I think the point they were making is that the pillars stop projectiles which causes the other player to not have to approach projectile spam.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay guys, sorry Smashboards and my daughter worked together to make that difficult (she clicked buttons to make it post twice). It should be all done now @_@

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ LiteralGrill thanks for updating your post. Want to know how I can tell some of the players didn't fully study and understand the stages before doing the survey?

This one is short and sweet, people just plain didn't like walkoffs. The stage also has some platforms that can be quite high, and a few folks mentioned how they could maybe carry you away.

The platforms are physically incapable of killing you and vanish before reaching the blast line. Characters standing on them just fall back down.

On a completely different subject, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

It's grand finals at S@X, Sheik vs. Lucario, but that's not important. It was a four game set and every single game was on Smashville.

Do all the new stages have cooties or something? This is hardly the first time I've noticed a reluctance to play on any of the new stages (even Town & City, by all accounts the lovechild of a menage a trois between Battlefield, FD, and Smashville, is only uncommon at best) but seriously, 4/4 on Smashville?

IDK, I wanted to vent a bit over that.

 

[Locke 06]

@ ParanoidDrone - Small request for your stage research posts, which I enjoy greatly btw. Could you add in distance between the blast zones from the main platforms? If we could get some kind of metric (horizontal and vertical) for what the blast zones are like, it would be really cool to include those in your posts, and would help some people form opinions on what stage is good/bad for their character and also how close to the blast zone some platforms actually are. For instance, the bottom right corner Tomadachi Life's ground floor is really close to the bottom blast zone and the right blast zone. How close? X character dies from Y move at Z%.

I think it would really add a lot of good data to your already data filled posts.

 

[19_]

@ LiteralGrill thanks for updating your post. Want to know how I can tell some of the players didn't fully study and understand the stages before doing the survey?



The platforms are physically incapable of killing you and vanish before reaching the blast line. Characters standing on them just fall back down.

On a completely different subject, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

It's grand finals at S@X, Sheik vs. Lucario, but that's not important. It was a four game set and every single game was on Smashville.

Do all the new stages have cooties or something? This is hardly the first time I've noticed a reluctance to play on any of the new stages (even Town & City, by all accounts the lovechild of a menage a trois between Battlefield, FD, and Smashville, is only uncommon at best) but seriously, 4/4 on Smashville?

IDK, I wanted to vent a bit over that.

I think the constant smashville love is a Xanadu thing. That weekly has made me believe that smashville is FD 2.0 I swear.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

@ LiteralGrill thanks for updating your post. Want to know how I can tell some of the players didn't fully study and understand the stages before doing the survey?

This this this.I mean seriously. Let's look at wuhu island.

"Water is bad." "People rely on spiking." "You can camp."

Seriously. A lot of people don't seem to understand that, disadvantage =/= ban worthy. Thats the whole point of counterpicks. To put the opponent at a disadvantage.

Don't get me started on the people who don't understand how the effects of walkoffs on traveling stages puts the person performing the walkoff camp at a disadvantage.

Also, I would also love to see more variety in tournaments. I am tired of smashville, town and city is decently better, but man. I totally get excited when they pick lylat cruise and duck hunt though.

 

[Teshie U]

SO why does no one have yoshis island pipes legal? perfectly fine stage or am i missing something?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ParanoidDrone - Small request for your stage research posts, which I enjoy greatly btw. Could you add in distance between the blast zones from the main platforms? If we could get some kind of metric (horizontal and vertical) for what the blast zones are like, it would be really cool to include those in your posts, and would help some people form opinions on what stage is good/bad for their character and also how close to the blast zone some platforms actually are. For instance, the bottom right corner Tomadachi Life's ground floor is really close to the bottom blast zone and the right blast zone. How close? X character dies from Y move at Z%.

I think it would really add a lot of good data to your already data filled posts.

I'd be interested but the difficulty is finding a good standard. Obviously measuring in physical units is out since we can't just drop them into the stage builder and count grid squares. Also just going by kill % is weird sometimes because the black lightning isn't a perfect indicator. (Although I suppose it's possible to just wait for its appearance and ballpark based on that, since it seems bad DI is the only way to get killed without it.) Also also I'm not sure how to properly measure the bottom blast line.

Once all the stages have been covered (yes, including monstrosities like Palutena's Temple and Pac-Land, I'll try to keep them brief) I plan to make some sort of megathread with Shaya's blessing, exact format still to be decided. That would be a good opportunity for me to slip in some sort of standardized kill % data. (Once again the hard part is deciding on a standard. Mario as the target seems obvious but what moves should he be subjected to?)

Alternately if anyone's motivated enough they can do the work themselves and either post it independently or ask me to incorporate it into my own threads, whichever they prefer. I'm still kind of baffled at how I'm basically the new stage guru, not going to lie. My threads started out as me being fed up with everyone assuming the worst about some of the 3DS stages and deciding that there was no way to have a proper discussion on them without data.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ ParanoidDrone the Smashville thing is people just playing on that stage so much they're too afraid to play anything else. I also worry something it's almost like a "soft ban" to play anywhere else as it will upset your opponent.

Also to you and @ CatRaccoonBL yes I'm guessing some folks still didn't know everything about each stage. Still this seems to be the impression people have on the stages so we need to go educate them on why these things may not be the case.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd be interested but the difficulty is finding a good standard. Obviously measuring in physical units is out since we can't just drop them into the stage builder and count grid squares. Also just going by kill % is weird sometimes because the black lightning isn't a perfect indicator. (Although I suppose it's possible to just wait for its appearance and ballpark based on that, since it seems bad DI is the only way to get killed without it.) Also also I'm not sure how to properly measure the bottom blast line.

Once all the stages have been covered (yes, including monstrosities like Palutena's Temple and Pac-Land, I'll try to keep them brief) I plan to make some sort of megathread with Shaya's blessing, exact format still to be decided. That would be a good opportunity for me to slip in some sort of standardized kill % data. (Once again the hard part is deciding on a standard. Mario as the target seems obvious but what moves should he be subjected to?)

Alternately if anyone's motivated enough they can do the work themselves and either post it independently or ask me to incorporate it into my own threads, whichever they prefer. I'm still kind of baffled at how I'm basically the new stage guru, not going to lie.

Sometimes, people just start looking to follow someone. You've put in the most work, so you get put with the honorary title. Only natural.

Ballpark would probably be best. It doesn't need to be exact, but the more precise the better. For straight verticals I'd use Luma's utilt. If I remember correctly, it has a strong base knockback but little knockback growth making it able to discern slight differences in blast zones. Horizontally, we'd want a similar move. WFT's dsmash possibly. Finally, the lower blast zone could be measured by walking off with Jigglypuff and timing how long it takes to die? And/or a certain spike in water? Those are my best guesses. Also, for measurement purposes of my own, I've used Mega Man's dtilt slide to measure distance, which could be used to measure how big platforms are.

These are all pretty obscure, but they might do the trick. The problem is getting them accepted as "standardized." Although I think if we did it, people would just have to deal with it. I'm hesitant to say I'm interested in helping out, because I have a lot on my plate already... but I'm interested. >.>

 

[KlefkiHolder]

To my understanding, MDVA just has a love affair with Smashville.

TKBreezy has joked on his stream before that in MDVA they only play 3 stages (Smashville, Town and City, FD were the three IIRC) haha

So yeah, don't rant... Don't say people are scared of going anywhere else... MDVA just LOVES Smashville. Watch Brawl and PM Xanadu's and you'll see the same thing.

EDIT: And I'm pretty sure they don't hate it when people go somewhere else, a lot of people just go there themselves... But yeah, I'm not from MDVA so don't quote me on this last thing.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Sometimes, people just start looking to follow someone. You've put in the most work, so you get put with the honorary title. Only natural.

Ballpark would probably be best. It doesn't need to be exact, but the more precise the better. For straight verticals I'd use Luma's utilt. If I remember correctly, it has a strong base knockback but little knockback growth making it able to discern slight differences in blast zones. Horizontally, we'd want a similar move. WFT's dsmash possibly. Finally, the lower blast zone could be measured by walking off with Jigglypuff and timing how long it takes to die? And/or a certain spike in water? Those are my best guesses. Also, for measurement purposes of my own, I've used Mega Man's dtilt slide to measure distance, which could be used to measure how big platforms are.

These are all pretty obscure, but they might do the trick. The problem is getting them accepted as "standardized." Although I think if we did it, people would just have to deal with it. I'm hesitant to say I'm interested in helping out, because I have a lot on my plate already... but I'm interested. >.>

I actually seem to recall hearing that Jigglypuff's dsmash has perfectly horizontal knockback. I think it was a loading tip? Can't remember. For vertical testing I was thinking Fox or Pikachu's usmash but perhaps someone who's spent more time digging through the Master Core dumps could suggest some moves? @ Thinkaman is the only one that comes to mind, but I'm sure there are others.

To hammer out a basic methodology for whenever this gets off the ground:

• Assumption: All stages are symmetrical with respect to blast zone distances on the left and right side. Thus for measuring horizontal size, it does not matter which side we test.
• Assumption: All transforming stages keep the same blast zones across transformations. Frankly I don't want to test this on every form of, say, Wuhu Island.
• Target will be Mario at center stage, defined as wherever the respawn platform drops him off at. If a platform is in the way, such as on Battlefield, he drops down to the main surface. (I already see an issue here BTW, Garden of Hope respawns players to the side since the bridge is in the middle. Suggestions?)
• Target will be hit with the move in question. If the move is a smash attack, it will be fully charged so as to eliminate the possibility of a minor initial charge due to input error.
• Kill % will be defined as the lowest % where the black lightning effect appears.

In this way the distance to the side and top blast lines can be guesstimated based on relative kill %.

To be decided: Lower blast line measuring. I don't want to rely on stopwatch measurements since human error in starting/stopping the clock can muddy the results. Perhaps a training dummy set to "control" (so they don't get up) hanging on the ledge and hit with a move that spikes under those conditions?

 

[Pazx]

MDVA's mantra is effectively 6 more years of Smashville.

Thanks for the results Capps, I'm bummed about Norfair but I'm so excited to see PS2 getting some love.

Edit: Not entirely sure but I think G&W's Usmash has perfectly vertical knockback.

 

[Piford]

For testing Ceilings, I think R.O.B.'s up-throw works pretty well. It has perfectly vertical knockback.

 

[Thinkaman]

Not gonna lie: I bias my stage selection towards Battlefield and Smashville just to avoid scrubby johns.

 

[Piford]

So after watching all of the tournaments videos and reading Capps post, I was all set to write up my current thought. Then I remembered that I'm not going to be able to post basically at all this week, so I decided to rush my write-up. So I ranked every stage based on how competitive I think they are. It doesn't quite express my thoughts and is kinda half-baked, but it's the best I can do with my time. So, you can find my write-up here. I might be able to post a bit more after this and discuss it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So after watching all of the tournaments videos and reading Capps post, I was all set to write up my current thought. Then I remembered that I'm not going to be able to post basically at all this week, so I decided to rush my write-up. So I ranked every stage based on how competitive I think they are. It doesn't quite express my thoughts and is kinda half-baked, but it's the best I can do with my time. So, you can find my write-up here. I might be able to post a bit more after this and discuss it.

Completely off topic, but where did you get those images for the stages?

 

[Piford]

Completely off topic, but where did you get those images for the stages?

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Super_Smash_Bros._for_Wii_U

 

[Cactusblah]

Thoughts on Japan actually using omega stages for competition, as should be?

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

 

[Piford]

Thoughts on Japan actually using omega stages for competition, as should be?

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Japan has always been overly strict with their rulesets. It's a pretty bad move to only make Omega stages legal as it's not balanced at all. Definitely not how it should be.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So after watching all of the tournaments videos and reading Capps post, I was all set to write up my current thought. Then I remembered that I'm not going to be able to post basically at all this week, so I decided to rush my write-up. So I ranked every stage based on how competitive I think they are. It doesn't quite express my thoughts and is kinda half-baked, but it's the best I can do with my time. So, you can find my write-up here. I might be able to post a bit more after this and discuss it.

Pretty great list. Hopefully, a couple stage from 5 do get in. After watching @ Conda 's videos, Luigi's mansion looks like a great stage. Norfair also has potential, but the hazards might just be too off-putting for people to give it a chance.

However, I do sincerely hope with a passion for wuhu island to be legal. That stage is fantastic, and it would be an incredible loss to miss out on having this stage legal.

As for omega only stages just no. It's just not neutral, and favors projectile characters way too much.

 

[Conda]

Pretty great list. Hopefully, a couple stage from 5 do get in. After watching @ Conda 's videos, Luigi's mansion looks like a great stage. Norfair also has potential, but the hazards might just be too off-putting for people to give it a chance.

However, I do sincerely hope with a passion for wuhu island to be legal. That stage is fantastic, and it would be an incredible loss to miss out on having this stage legal.

As for omega only stages just no. It's just not neutral, and favors projectile characters way too much.

There are 2 more sets left, which I'm about to upload. Should be up by tomorrow. Grand Finals were great.

 

[Pazx]

@ ParanoidDrone @ Locke 06 I've got a bit of spare time and I'm aware Rest has purely vertical knockback (was wrong about G&W's Usmash), will get kill % on each legalish stage so we can get an idea of ceiling height. Training mode, both chars on equal % sound good? Will also be going from kill % as with no DI I'm pretty sure most vertical moves kill 1 or 2% before the black lightning. If anyone has a better suggestion for moves let me know.

Update: Done SV, BF, FD, T&C, Duck Hunt, KJ64, PS2 (never again), Halberd, Skyloft (NEVER EVER AGAIN). Will post results once I get around to Lylat and Defino which will prove to be frustrating.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

@ ParanoidDrone @ Locke 06 I've got a bit of spare time and I'm aware Rest has purely vertical knockback (was wrong about G&W's Usmash), will get kill % on each legalish stage so we can get an idea of ceiling height. Training mode, both chars on equal % sound good? Will also be going from kill % as with no DI I'm pretty sure most vertical moves kill 1 or 2% before the black lightning. If anyone has a better suggestion for moves let me know.

Update: Done SV, BF, FD, T&C, Duck Hunt, KJ64, PS2 (never again), Halberd, Skyloft (NEVER EVER AGAIN). Will post results once I get around to Lylat and Defino which will prove to be frustrating.

Make sure to note the position of the training dummy in your post when you make it. Good work.

 

[Ticker]

On a completely different subject, this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hKFyOs2TTmg

It's grand finals at S@X, Sheik vs. Lucario, but that's not important. It was a four game set and every single game was on Smashville.

Do all the new stages have cooties or something? This is hardly the first time I've noticed a reluctance to play on any of the new stages (even Town & City, by all accounts the lovechild of a menage a trois between Battlefield, FD, and Smashville, is only uncommon at best) but seriously, 4/4 on Smashville?

IDK, I wanted to vent a bit over that.

People just like smashville. It's a simple rather neutral stage, where the players don't have to worry about transformations or an akward stage layout.

 

[Thinkaman]

Rest is 88 degrees.

DK up-smash and uair is 90, but it shouldn't really matter for the purpose at hand. Rest should be fine.

 

[MeleeMario64]

Just had a thought a while back:Some Omega stages could get banned.No,seriously.
Some of them are just like the regular FD,while others go down into the blast zone.That's when I thought:"Some characters like Diddy Kong could wall-jump off these Omega stages and make it back."
Am I just thinking too hard,or could this be an actual problem?Just wondering.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Just had a thought a while back:Some Omega stages could get banned.No,seriously.
Some of them are just like the regular FD,while others go down into the blast zone.That's when I thought:"Some characters like Diddy Kong could wall-jump off these Omega stages and make it back."
Am I just thinking too hard,or could this be an actual problem?Just wondering.

IMO it's not an actual problem, especially since I don't think anyone supports the idea of Omegas as a starter stage so the only way it can ever be an issue is if you counterpick it, in which case that's player choice so don't blame the stage.

 

[MeleeMario64]

IMO it's not an actual problem, especially since I don't think anyone supports the idea of Omegas as a starter stage so the only way it can ever be an issue is if you counterpick it, in which case that's player choice so don't blame the stage.

OK then,just thought it could be a problem.
But what if the competitive scene starts doing that?What could happen?Not to be going on about it being a problem,just wondering what would happen if they noticed it.
Also,why not omegas as starters?Sure,they're not perfect,but they're a LOT better than lots of stages this time around.
In Melee and Brawl,I'll play on some banned stages,but this time around,the hazards and gimmicks are absolutely out of control.Boss hazards was the tipping point for me,hence why I 9/10 only go into FD form.The only time I play regular form is if the game forces me to do it(Smash Run,Classic,and All-Star for example.),or if I want to mess around in training.Like one time in All-Star the Spirit Train stage broke away and got me killedDying to hazards is a horrible thing to have happen to you,and it makes me extremely salty.Just saying.

 

[Conda]

Thoughts on Japan actually using omega stages for competition, as should be?

http://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming

Its interesting that their ruleset is more limited than ours, and that they ran with the ruleset For Glory uses. Im Sure that makes joining the scene easy, as it makes sense that you have to learn the rules present in For Glory, rather then visit the web and try and find the official ruleset/stagelist somewhere else. There's an elegance to it that I cannot deny.

 

[Nintendrone]

@ MeleeMario64 What are you talking about? This game has the best selection of good stages. Yes, its bad stages are definitely over the top, but there's a lot of great ones to go around. Omegas are FD and should never be separate, as the added ability for more wall jumps should not make a different stage.

 

[Conda]

In other news, ALL VIDEOS from the 12/20 Stage Testing Tournament hosted and organized by @ LiteralGrill and Team hypest are now up! Grand Finals and all. Great matches.

Link:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLmm1joZm6wUWk2Pla1ofjSnZjTOJ7v9Vd

Watch them and discuss what happens regarding the stages and all. I'm surprised to see not much discussion so far on events that happened in the tournament. It was exciting and a great idea to host competitive tournament play on these stages For Science. Me & @ LiteralGrill were looking forward to a lot of talk and discussion, we both worked very hard hard.

The stage list:

Luigi's Mansion
Wii Fit Studio
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit Wii U
Windy Hill Zone

A lot of stage interaction happening in this tournament, yet still a lot of fantastic high skill matches whose excitement weren't necessarily due to the stages. Hope you all enjoy watching and discussing them.

Regarding my channel, i'll probably be taking a couple days break due to Christmas. Apologies to viewers but you're probably busy too!

I look forward to seeing discussion on the above stages, for science and all.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

OK then,just thought it could be a problem.
But what if the competitive scene starts doing that?What could happen?Not to be going on about it being a problem,just wondering what would happen if they noticed it.
Also,why not omegas as starters?Sure,they're not perfect,but they're a LOT better than lots of stages this time around.
In Melee and Brawl,I'll play on some banned stages,but this time around,the hazards and gimmicks are absolutely out of control.Boss hazards was the tipping point for me,hence why I 9/10 only go into FD form.The only time I play regular form is if the game forces me to do it(Smash Run,Classic,and All-Star for example.),or if I want to mess around in training.Like one time in All-Star the Spirit Train stage broke away and got me killedDying to hazards is a horrible thing to have happen to you,and it makes me extremely salty.Just saying.

No Omegas as starters because we already have FD and including Omegas just muddies the waters. Also, trying to play on literally nothing but FD and Omegas shifts the metagame towards the characters that do well without platforms and directly nerfs everyone else.

These 12 stages have very little if anything to suggest they're unsuitable for competition. Any hazards are easily avoidable if you take the time to actually practice.

• Battlefield
• Final Destination/Omegas
• Smashville
• Town & City
• Lylat Cruise
• Halberd
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Duck Hunt
• Castle SIege
• Delfino Plaza
• Skyloft
• Wuhu Island

And then these 8 stages make different people various kinds of uncomfortable for whatever reason, but IMO there's room for debate, discussion, and experimentation. (There was even a tournament last weekend for testing most of this list.)

• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Windy Hill Zone
• Norfair
• Mario Circuit
• Luigi's Mansion
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Woolly World
• Mushroom Kingdom U

Lastly there are 3 stages whose biggest sin is being a walkoff. I'm fine with them, others aren't.

• Coliseum
• Wii FIt Studio
• Mario Galaxy

All told that's 23 stages, quite a decent number. Claiming that the hazards and gimmicks in Smash 4 stages are out of control is being willfully ignorant IMO.

 

[Locke 06]

I'd add Wrecking Crew in debatable, as it has a sort of Tomadachi Life feel to it that was somewhat accepted in 3DS. Legal until proven broken, right?

Also, I like 24 better than 23. (More of a Ken Griffey Jr. guy than a Michael Jordan)

 

[guedes the brawler]

which stage you guys think it's better suitable for being the 5th starter in a groupd of Bf, Fd, TC and Sv as starters?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

which stage you guys think it's better suitable for being the 5th starter in a groupd of Bf, Fd, TC and Sv as starters?

If it were up to me I'd do away with the starter/counterpick distinction completely, but to actually answer your question I'd say Kongo Jungle 64 or Lylat Cruise.

 

[Conda]

If it were up to me I'd do away with the starter/counterpick distinction completely, but to actually answer your question I'd say Kongo Jungle 64 or Lylat Cruise.

I'd say the way Lylat's edges interact with some recoveries (ones that dont snap as well, or purely vertical ones) should maybe make it a CP, but I understand the value of it being a starter as well. I'm alright with either, but I've a feeling stage striking is a better system anyway.