Long, possibly final post ahead:
Look, you can't argue against or ignore a contradiction without making yourself look dumb. Go play a Phoenix Wright game for millions of examples of people trying to do the same thing. I can literally reply to everyone's posts, including the ones I haven't directly replied to, in one sweep with this again because they're all missing the point:
Challenging me or trying to convince me that camping would be more ineffective/effective isn't going to clear up this contradiction between everyone's posts and what's stated in the rules. In fact, it's just providing more evidence of my point.
Let's just be really honest here. It's clear that sometimes we respect a player's decision to win by timeout. That's pretty clear because everyone including me agrees there should be SOME time limit.
However, that respect is only shown when it's convenient to what's popular (the "metagame"). It's incredibly obvious because of the existence of this entire contradiction, where suddenly players can't use stages to win by timeout. That's also why there's so many complaints about "it drags matches too long" or "it would be too popular" or *insert complaint about not wanting to adapt here*. So many people have admitted to this already it's depressing. People are so frank about their bias, just put it in the official rules so there's no confusion. Oh wait it already is, in the stagelist, which is my WHOOOLE POINT AGAIN.... *SIGH*
It's actually the TOs fault for not enforcing their rules and making sure players are aware of what's legal or not. They probably don't even know themselves, hence all of the unnecessary innocent stage banning. Back to the contradiction. Let's review it again:
- Stages are banned because of their ability to drag out a match to the time limit for a win
- The rules allow players to drag out any match on any stage to a win.
There's a number of ways to address it, one which I've brought up multiple times:
- Change (shorten) the time limit so the maximum amount of time each match takes is lowered. This will directly address the complaints of "campy/defensive matches taking too long". It makes the time limit more of a factor in a match, but it already was against 2 players who read the rules, so nothing changes there.
- Step up commentating so people who spectate can appreciate the amount of pressure it takes to win by timeout
- Stop telling people X stage is banned because of its ability to drag out matches.
- Stop banning stages with this reasoning. Pretty much every stage needs to be reevaluated without this reasoning involved.
If people seriously aren't going "HOLY CRAP LET'S FIX THIS" like I did, I'm definitely in the wrong forum with the wrong people. The fact that everyone would rather direct their disagreements at my likes/dislikes instead of the real issue, despite me repeating it over and over again, makes me deeply regret making an account here and speaking up.
Hopefully some reasonable person with some visibility realizes how much having a stagelist and the other official rules contradict each other destroys the credibility of the Smash community. I'm not even getting into the contradictions between characters and stages. Ex: Ban stages with random elements but characters with random elements like G&W or Villager are fine. Ban unpopular stages but don't ban unpopular characters...
Okay. We'll set aside Wrecking Crew, since, you're right. I haven't done my homework on it. Also, Mario killing Charizard with up-smash isn't really... a great... comparison. >.>
You're right. :-P That's my fault, but it is something I noticed while playing there. The blastzone is higher than you'd think, it's a little higher than where the 6th floor would be. I'd like to get some more comparable numbers about the vertical KO blast zone like some folks did in that thread about blastzones.
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I kinda want to take a break from posting because I didn't expect all of this unnecessary friction on a very solid point I made. Hopefully someone will look back and go "Hmm.....you know, I think HavocThunder was right about this." I'm ok with people disagreeing with me, but I'm saying "Look at the rules, something's wrong" and everyone wants to look at how I feel about stuff. I can feel any way towards anything.
Do you want me to make up something that pleases you? I'm not here to please you, I'm here to get these stages legal. I don't care if you're new or old or a TO or a top player or a new one. I don't care that people will use popular or unpopular tactics if the time limit's changed.
Here's how this thread has gone from my Post 1:
"Here's how this stage works"
"I've got a feeling"
"I prove the rules or stage contradict your feelings and provide solutions"
"I still have a feeling"
Welp, I might as well give up while I'm still sane. This place could use a lot more folks like me who keep things real, but I'm getting driven away right now with the lack of real discussion on real topics. Real topics like the proven fact TOs have been doing a sloppy job for 12 years to make sure players are aware of the time limit!!! Or banning stages for legal things you can do in a match!! O_O How does that not make you question how TOs are ruling stage bans?
If I couldn't get to your post, I'm really sorry and please don't make me out to be some crazy villain here. I'm a person and a player and a TOURNAMENT PLAYER at that too. I was at Shuffle VI and had a ton of fun playing with the folks there in Smash 3DS. I'm pretty sure I did hit everything at some point in this post, though, so read it again carefully if you disagree. I wish I could sit here and personally correct everyone's posts, but I just don't have the time or energy to do that.
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I have some things I'd like to contribute for Palutena's Temple because I'm shocking myself at how much detracts from circle camping with the springs + hazards + pits, but is it really worth sharing on a board where people would rather ban things on their feelings instead of proof? I'm not holding anything hostage, you can easily see what I mean if you have the game and LOOK.
Maybe if the time limit is shortened, people will warm up to camping, then
maybe TOs can experiment with Palutena's Temple or Wrecking Crew or Gaur Plains, then
maybe everyone will eventually see all these odd scenarios that detract from circle camping, and
maybe someone else could decide these stages are ok for me........or I could take a good 15 minutes in Training Mode to investigate for myself and contribute my
own informed perspective into the stage discussion :| I'm still legit disappointed that I had to explain Wrecking Crew has fall-through platforms. It'll forever be banned with the way people make up stuff about that stage... Pac-Land and Wily's Castle too.
If what I was saying mattered, I would expect to see Wily's Castle and Wrecking Crew on everyone's legal lists from here on out. NOT on debatable. I've proven beyond a reasonable doubt that these stages are predictable and therefore competitive. I wish I had gotten to Pac-Land, but no one here will ever take that seriously. "Yes we will...eventua-" No. Don't lie to yourself. And if you were, what about the
stage and not the players are you looking at? I've already pointed predictable things on both stages worth looking at and no one cares to do more investigation. I could do it for Palutena's Temple but no one would care, it's just soooo obvious what's wrong about it... -_-
Even though there's nothing outright wrong and we can't fully articulate what is wrong, ban them because they're unpopular...smh propose to ban Ganondorf or any character while you're at it and watch the amount of uproar you'll rightfully deserve for that.
