Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Fortanono]

The layouts are completely different between Wuhu Island and Skyloft; they are not really similar at all. That's like banning Town and City because it's similar to Battlefield because they both have 3 platforms.

Sorry. However, I do think that the layouts there aren't as good for competitive play (like the Bridge and Boat). But I'm a noob, so cut me some slack.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Sorry. However, I do think that the layouts there aren't as good for competitive play (like the Bridge and Boat). But I'm a noob, so cut me some slack.

The boat is completely fine. There is nothing wrong with that section. The bridge has potential stage control issues, but nothing too major.

The only one that could be considered bad is actually the fountain due to camping issues, but due to the fact that is doesn't last that long and it doesn't even go there all the time, makes it not even matter.

I actually think wuhu is better competitively then skyloft, they are both competitively viable and should be included, but thats just what I think.

 

[warriorman222]

I think Duck Hunt should be a Starter. Ducks Aren't such an issue, they're hard to hit even on purpose, the Dog platform is easy to predict, and the tree isn't as bad as most people put it.

 

[warriorman222]

I'd like to point out that between the Random button and "Normal" there's enough room for one more tab. DLC which will have Miiverse as the first stage to appear on it? The CSS has no obvious spot for Mewtwo either with everything on it lining up really neatly as well so it seems likely the GUI is meant to look nice pre-DLC and will be expanded into something else nice looking when DLC is added in.

Brawl's can fit 100 characters max. SSB4 can hold some more.

 

[MeleeMario64]

No Omegas as starters because we already have FD and including Omegas just muddies the waters. Also, trying to play on literally nothing but FD and Omegas shifts the metagame towards the characters that do well without platforms and directly nerfs everyone else.

These 12 stages have very little if anything to suggest they're unsuitable for competition. Any hazards are easily avoidable if you take the time to actually practice.

• Battlefield
• Final Destination/Omegas
• Smashville
• Town & City
• Lylat Cruise
• Halberd
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Duck Hunt
• Castle SIege
• Delfino Plaza
• Skyloft
• Wuhu Island

And then these 8 stages make different people various kinds of uncomfortable for whatever reason, but IMO there's room for debate, discussion, and experimentation. (There was even a tournament last weekend for testing most of this list.)

• Pokemon Stadium 2
• Windy Hill Zone
• Norfair
• Mario Circuit
• Luigi's Mansion
• Orbital Gate Assault
• Woolly World
• Mushroom Kingdom U

Lastly there are 3 stages whose biggest sin is being a walkoff. I'm fine with them, others aren't.

• Coliseum
• Wii FIt Studio
• Mario Galaxy

All told that's 23 stages, quite a decent number. Claiming that the hazards and gimmicks in Smash 4 stages are out of control is being willfully ignorant IMO.

True,some aren't THAT bad,but some...yeah,talking about YOU,Yellow Devil!

 

[LiteralGrill]

Apex Ruleset Is Out for those that want it here is the full pdf for it.

They are missing from their stagelist Skyloft (a SERIOUS commission, what in the WORLD is going on there?) Wuhu Island (not as surprising but sad) and Pokemon Stadium 2 (unsurprised at all but still )

Stage debaters, time to get campaigning for Skyloft at a bare minimum HARD.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Apex Ruleset Is Out for those that want it here is the full pdf for it.

They are missing from their stagelist Skyloft (a SERIOUS commission, what in the WORLD is going on there?) Wuhu Island (not as surprising but sad) and Pokemon Stadium 2 (unsurprised at all but still )

Stage debaters, time to get campaigning for Skyloft at a bare minimum HARD.

I don't know, I think wuhu island has way more value, even if skyloft is easier. With that said, having one extra legal either way is still good.

It's a pretty decent stage list all things considered. I would love to hear there reasoning on why certain stages didn't make the cut. Skyloft is a mystery.

 

[Pazx]

I cannot believe they've gone for a 3 starter stage list.

Oh my god.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Apex Ruleset Is Out for those that want it here is the full pdf for it.

They are missing from their stagelist Skyloft (a SERIOUS commission, what in the WORLD is going on there?) Wuhu Island (not as surprising but sad) and Pokemon Stadium 2 (unsurprised at all but still )

Stage debaters, time to get campaigning for Skyloft at a bare minimum HARD.

...interesting. I'm less than thrilled at the small stage list (3 starters? 7 counterpicks? lolwut?) but mildly intrigued at the Stage Clause: "You cannot counterpick a stage that has already been played on in the set." Seems like a more restrictive version of DSR, which just prevents you from picking a stage you already won on. Also the winner gets 2 stage bans before the loser counterpicks.

No customs sucks but given how recent Ampharos' custom moveset project was I guess it makes sense that they couldn't really account for it. (I can almost guarantee that these rules were being decided on ages ago.) Limiting Miis to 1111 makes more sense in that context because otherwise they would be the only character with actual choices in their moveset. Similar logic for forcing the guest Mii on everyone, which is always the same size everywhere. Overall I get the impression that they just want to avoid any possible issues stemming from custom moves and Mii sizes and stick to what they know. In the sort term it's a sensible plan but I dearly hope this isn't a sign of things to come.

But yeah, I'm still salty over that tiny stage list.

 

[ぱみゅ]

3 Starters... oh dear lord...

tbh, Apex's rulesets have never been particularly good. That alone wouldn't be bad if Apex didn't dictate how the game will be played.

Oh, and I like that clause of not picking the same stage twice, it at least gives the game some diversity

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well they're open on twitter and ask FM to take questions and such, I personally went out and am asking questions about these questionable decisions. Apparently some of the TOs don't find Town and City starter worthy? I am baffled to the extreme...

 

[thehard]

What's the best way to get the Apex stagelist reconsidered?

 

[LiteralGrill]

What's the best way to get the Apex stagelist reconsidered?

Show them every piece of data to show why it should be changed, show indisputable logic as to why it should be changed, and then if they don't change it make sure that every single person you know knows why the decision was bad and make sure they too are vocal and go out to convince other players it was an issue. You also should make sure the public in general knows Apex is making questionable decisions as well so people know the tournament itself causes issues.

 

[Uniit]

Skyloft is out ! They listened to me ! /troll:off

But seriously the 3 starter is pretty bad... who's banning first is at disavantage.

 

[Pazx]

Nah there's no disadvantage, all sets will start on Smashville :^)

Update: Brawl at Apex has 5 starter stages, what the hell.

 

[Piford]

The Apex ruleset literally screams "afraid to try something new." Not including Skyloft and Wuhu are pretty big issue tht are clearly a result of this. Having a 3 stage starter list wouldn't be so bad if one of them wasn't final destination, one of the least deserving stages on that list. I think just showing how Delfino is a more random version of Skyloft and Wuhu should be enough to make them realize they need those stages.

Edit: I noticed they added Delfino back to brawl.

 

[Quickhero]

The Apex ruleset literally screams "afraid to try something new."

I don't think a ruleset is able to scream. Did you mean figuratively?

I don't really think it is a matter of "trying something new" however. I honestly think it's because this game is incredibly new, and, including the 3DS version, has only been out for not even 3 months. I think it's safe to say they have reasons to play things safe because they themselves haven't been able to personally test out all the new stages. That being said, I do think Skyloft should've been legal, but it's understandable why it isn't.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Man why even bother with the starter/counter-pick system if more then half of them aren't starter material? If that many of them aren't "neutral" enough for game one then I'm sure you could argue a reason that the starters aren't "neutral" either, especially final destination. And then Lylat's on the Brawl starter list? The hell? My thought is either move 2 of the counters to the starter list or just screw it and do full stage striking, adding Skyloft to keep the list odd. Silliness.

 

[Nintendrone]

Wow, that Apex stagelist is just bad. Wuhu and Skyloft need to get on there asap, and a case could be made for PS2, Windy Hill, and Luigi's Mansion as well (I said those three since their list suggests a phobia of damaging hazards). The starter list really sucks; it should have FD out and have T&C, Skyloft, and KJ64/Lylat/Duck Hunt/Castle Siege in. I'm saddened by the lack of custom moves, but that's a far more difficult thing to implement, so it's understandable.

 

[Nuttre]

Best keep the stage list conservative, we don't want anything unspeakable happening at Sm4sh' first major, especially with big N sponsoring.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Best keep the stage list conservative, we don't want anything unspeakable happening at Sm4sh' first major, especially with big N sponsoring.

I take the opposite approach and figure that if certain stages, moves, etc. are unsuitable for competition then there's no better way of showing it than to make it legal on a national stage and leave it up to the competitors to figure out the exploits and abuses. And if they can't successfully abuse it, then hey, turns out it's okay for competition, problem solved.

I admit this is a very devil-may-care approach but I'm getting rather tired of back and forth theorycraft and talking about mere possibilities.

 

[Nintendrone]

Best keep the stage list conservative, we don't want anything unspeakable happening at Sm4sh' first major, especially with big N sponsoring.

The flaw with this mindset is that Apex pretty much determines the most common ruleset for any given Smash game, so going conservative sucks in the long run when good things like custom moves and cool stages are left behind because a national said no.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

especially with big N sponsoring.

Yo Nintendo's tournaments have custom equipment and all stages allowed. If anything I think they'd be more confused about a conservative list than a liberal one.

Like I said though the stage list itself could be worse but that sorting just looks stupid. Like, if pretty much all the stages "aren't neutral enough" why even bother with the separate lists? Will there be riots in the streets if the first fight is on Duck Hunt?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yo Nintendo's tournaments have custom equipment and all stages allowed. If anything I think they'd be more confused about a conservative list than a liberal one.

Like I said though the stage list itself could be worse but that sorting just looks stupid. Like, if pretty much all the stages "aren't neutral enough" why even bother with the separate lists? Will there be riots in the streets if the first fight is on Duck Hunt?

More elegantly phrased, if a stage is suitable for game 5 of grand finals, why not game 1?

 

[Nuttre]

More elegantly phrased, if a stage is suitable for game 5 of grand finals, why not game 1?

Both games are different scenarios where different methods are used to select stages. Using different systems with the same possibilities may cause issues. (It's not a huge deal, just one for tradition if anything. If it worked before, why change at all?)

Yo Nintendo's tournaments have custom equipment and all stages allowed. If anything I think they'd be more confused about a conservative list than a liberal one.

Perhaps we want to show big N our way of doing it, but without embarrassing ourselves, or spoiling our reputation.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Perhaps we want to show big N our way of doing it, but without embarrassing ourselves, or spoiling our reputation.

They would love to see crazy stuff happen at a tournament. They're Nintendo.

The only possible bad thing is the possibility of severe camping, which Skyloft and Wuhu don't promote so thats a moot point. If we wanted to impress them, having a bigger list would be the better answer.

 

[Locke 06]

(It's not a huge deal, just one for tradition if anything. If it worked before, why change at all?)

#politics

 

[ParanoidDrone]

(It's not a huge deal, just one for tradition if anything. If it worked before, why change at all?)

Because we can do better?

 

[leekslap]

So how done are we with the 3DS stagelist? I'm new to this thread and I've only read the OP so I don't know how much this has been discussed. Have we worked out neutrals and counterpicks and things like that? Well I guess I will give my thoughts anyway. I will base my thoughts off the stage list in the OP.

Neutrals :
- Battlefield
- Final Destination
- Omega Form stages w/ walls since the ones without are kinda irrelevant
- Yoshi's Island ( Brawl )
- Prism Tower

These stages generally don't give big advantages to certain characters, and if they do, there's always another to choose. Or it's probably a bad matchup so switch characters you dummy! Prism Tower does have some jank with the starting walkoff and transitions but nothing too bad.

Counter Picks :
- Tomodachi Life : I think this one is especially underrated. There's no hazards and you can get used to the weird way the rooms fade in and out. However, the way the platforms are could cause sharking, easy off the top kills if on the top platform, and runaway/circle camp, so if that is not an advantage for certain characters, I don't know what is.
- Brinstar : This one's always been a personal favorite since it rides the fine line between legal and competitive, and crazy and fun. The lava is really predictable and not overly strong like in Mute City from Melee. However, the organic looking pillars and things have hurtboxes so that could mess with projectiles and the platform layout can really help out with killing. This is the perfect stage for your strong close combat characters to deal with projectile characters with the bonus of lava combos. I doubt it will ever happen though since projectile spammers will always ban this stage. Also perfect stage for multi jumpers because of sharking.
- Reset Bomb Forest : A pretty cool stage at first but then walkoff, weird structures in the air that could cause stage spike combo shenanigans, and a weird centipede thing that kills you. This stages is pretty amazing for aerial fighters but it's a nightmare for Little Mac and Dr. Mario! We might have to have a rule that states that the weird structures should be destroyed ASAP after the walk off part fades away since they are pretty disjusting and more obstructive than any other part.

The could-be-legal-but-not-very-good:
- Arena Ferox : I'm not the biggest fan of this stage since I don't see the point of it but people say it is good so OK I guess. Probably just gonna have to wait out some sections of it like in Melee with Pokemon Stadium. It's a fine stage and I think it could even be a neutral.
- Corneria - Always been banned before but now walls are less abusive so this stage could work and it is clearly counter pick material but nobody likes it.
- Paper Mario - Hazards aren't too bad and certain parts of the stage are very yes to me.
- Tortimer Island - Fruit can be ignored, shark doesn't come out very long at all, and Kapp'n isn't as obtrusive if you play closer to the center. Could be neutral since counterpicking with this one is rolling the lottery because layout changes every time you pick it.

Every other stage is definetly banned IMO including Rainbow Road @ Raziek please ban it lol. So it's a lot different than my starting stagelist but that's how it came out.

Banning for neutrals could be 1-2-1, winner gets 2 or 3 bans during counterpicking, and you will have to tell them which ones you ban now or some other way. That's my 2 cents, so even though it looks like I'm trying to create the end all stagelist, I'm not so take it with a grain of salt and don't get mad since it's just my opinion.

I've been hearing some stuff about the 3DS version being dead competively and it saddens me. Some people can't afford the Wii U version so please don't say that.

 

[BBC7]

Am I the only one that thinks Omega Lylat Cruise should be considered a separate stage as opposed to just another Omega? It's pretty well distinguished since it has a smaller sweetspot for the ledge and you can't grab the ledge if you go under parts of the stage like you can in Final Destination.

 

[Pazx]

Am I the only one that thinks Omega Lylat Cruise should be considered a separate stage as opposed to just another Omega? It's pretty well distinguished since it has a smaller sweetspot for the ledge and you can't grab the ledge if you go under parts of the stage like you can in Final Destination.

You're probably on your own there, even though it is rather unique there should be no difference between any and all Omegas and FD during striking/banning.

Alternate suggestion: We continue with the FD = Omega for banning purposes, and we enact a rule that banning a stage also bans the Omega version of that stage. This would really only come into practice when it comes to Lylat, as it means if your opponent bans Lylat you can't take them to Omega Lylat to cheese them out with the ledges yet you can still take them to any other Omega of your choice for the whole flat stage thing.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

Can we talk about vanilla FD? The stage should be banned and I'd be surprised if I were the first one to suggest it.

 

[Pazx]

A clause where if either player would rather have Omega Palutena's instead of FD would be better than an outright ban, in my opinion.

Also, check it out, we have rough ceiling height data! Halberd has the lowest while KJ64 has a very, very high ceiling. @ Locke 06

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can we talk about vanilla FD? The stage should be banned and I'd be surprised if I were the first one to suggest it.

Yeah the replace it with an Omega things is interesting. My poll suggests Orbital Gate Assault Omega is the most popular Omega with the same friction as FD, but personal testing based on a few responses from that poll Skyworld seems a good choice. The angles of the stage when used to slide up your recovery to the stage was VERY close to the original FD.

 

[HeroMystic]

Can we talk about vanilla FD? The stage should be banned and I'd be surprised if I were the first one to suggest it.

I believe Xanadu tournaments already banned FD and replaced it with Omega Paluntena, which makes sense.

 

[Quickhero]

Wait, FD as in Final Destination???? What's wrong with the stage? D:

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wait, FD as in Final Destination???? What's wrong with the stage? D:

Apparently the background is distracting, which sounds like the johnniest of johns but whatever. I haven't had an issue with it myself.

 

[Piford]

Gaur Plains should definitely be used of an omega is because it's pretty darn close to FD and it represents a series not already covered. Also I think people think it has different traction but the thread on glass didn't say it had.

 

[HeroMystic]

Wait, FD as in Final Destination???? What's wrong with the stage? D:

According to the stream, the background is too bright and also affects people who are colorblind.

 

[Quickhero]

According to the stream, the background is too bright and also affects people who are colorblind.

How would it affect colorblind people? (No offense to those that are colorblind, just merely asking) It's just purple that becomes white then blue, but I'm not colorblind so I'm not completely sure, but I just don't get how it would harm them. the background being too bright sounds like just a terrible excuse someone would make if they lost in that stage. FD is like THE even ground stage, it's perfect for grand finals and a professional tournament doing this just seems so...lame.