Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[ATH_]

Without any CP/Starter distinction:

Smashville
Battlefield
Final Destination/Omega Stages
Town and City
Duck Hunt
Lylat Cruise

Six. Six stages is not enough, so you are required to pick at least one from the following, however there is nothing even close to a consensus at this point:
Halberd/Skyloft/Kongo Jungle/Delfino/Castle Siege

Duck Hunt on the "Absolutely accepted stagelist"? This makes me laugh.

I know quite a few people who are against Duck Hunt, including myself.

 

[Pazx]

Duck Hunt on the "Absolutely accepted stagelist"? This makes me laugh.

I know quite a few people who are against Duck Hunt, including myself.

If you can provide me with reasons not to legalise Duck Hunt I'll eat my words but until then "me and my buddies don't like this stage" is worth nothing.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Guys, we are WAY off track. We need to talk about the serious meta, the game Smash 4 competitive is really going to be focused on.

4v4 Smash Stagelist​

Starters:
Big Battlefield
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Windy Hill Zone
Castle Siege (iffiest, sometimes it's big enough and others it feels cramped)

Unsure:
Battlefield (it feels like it may be too cramped for 4v4... Maybe good CP material?
Mario Galaxy (is walkoff camping gonna be a big deal in 4v4? Also, are the super early kills gonna come up as often?
Bridge Of Eldin (it's also a walkoff)
Onett (walkoff)

Banned:
Palutena's Temple (Too big even for 4v4 properly)
Temple (kinda the same as above)
The Great Cave Offensive (is far too big even for 4v4 and introduces a lot of weird elements)
Gaur Plain (too big probably even for 4v4 and yay boss character! plus kinda walkoffs)
75 m (too disruptive in hazards, very hard to navigate and probably a bit big even for 4v4)

Note, I'm not JUST doing this to be silly. For one, we probably should have a 4v4 ruleset for side events, on another I think looking at a separate metagame of sorts may teach us some things about the normal 1v1/2v2 kinda game.

So, how's my list?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I know you meant it as a joke but FYI I don't think Metal Face appears in 8P Smash.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I know you meant it as a joke but FYI I don't think Metal Face appears in 8P Smash.

I can vouch for this. Stage is still probably a little too big though.

 

[Jaxas]

Guys, we are WAY off track. We need to talk about the serious meta, the game Smash 4 competitive is really going to be focused on.

4v4 Smash Stagelist​

Starters:
Big Battlefield
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Windy Hill Zone
Castle Siege (iffiest, sometimes it's big enough and others it feels cramped)

Unsure:
Battlefield (it feels like it may be too cramped for 4v4... Maybe good CP material?
Mario Galaxy (is walkoff camping gonna be a big deal in 4v4? Also, are the super early kills gonna come up as often?
Bridge Of Eldin (it's also a walkoff)
Onett (walkoff)

Banned:
Palutena's Temple (Too big even for 4v4 properly)
Temple (kinda the same as above)
The Great Cave Offensive (is far too big even for 4v4 and introduces a lot of weird elements)
Gaur Plain (too big probably even for 4v4 and yay boss character! plus kinda walkoffs)
75 m (too disruptive in hazards, very hard to navigate and probably a bit big even for 4v4)

Note, I'm not JUST doing this to be silly. For one, we probably should have a 4v4 ruleset for side events, on another I think looking at a separate metagame of sorts may teach us some things about the normal 1v1/2v2 kinda game.

So, how's my list?

Honestly it looks pretty good, but unless I'm completely blind I think you're missing a stage type...
Final Destination (Specifically the Omegas, because real FD isn't a selectable stage)

 

[19_]

Guys, we are WAY off track. We need to talk about the serious meta, the game Smash 4 competitive is really going to be focused on.

4v4 Smash Stagelist​

Starters:
Big Battlefield
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Windy Hill Zone
Castle Siege (iffiest, sometimes it's big enough and others it feels cramped)

Unsure:
Battlefield (it feels like it may be too cramped for 4v4... Maybe good CP material?
Mario Galaxy (is walkoff camping gonna be a big deal in 4v4? Also, are the super early kills gonna come up as often?
Bridge Of Eldin (it's also a walkoff)
Onett (walkoff)

Banned:
Palutena's Temple (Too big even for 4v4 properly)
Temple (kinda the same as above)
The Great Cave Offensive (is far too big even for 4v4 and introduces a lot of weird elements)
Gaur Plain (too big probably even for 4v4 and yay boss character! plus kinda walkoffs)
75 m (too disruptive in hazards, very hard to navigate and probably a bit big even for 4v4)

Note, I'm not JUST doing this to be silly. For one, we probably should have a 4v4 ruleset for side events, on another I think looking at a separate metagame of sorts may teach us some things about the normal 1v1/2v2 kinda game.

So, how's my list?

Ive actually scene some good matches with both temples (I can't find the footage though). I honestly thing both temples should be tested at least.

 

[Big O]

Guys, we are WAY off track. We need to talk about the serious meta, the game Smash 4 competitive is really going to be focused on.

4v4 Smash Stagelist​

Starters:
Big Battlefield
Kongo Jungle 64
Duck Hunt
Windy Hill Zone
Castle Siege (iffiest, sometimes it's big enough and others it feels cramped)

Unsure:
Battlefield (it feels like it may be too cramped for 4v4... Maybe good CP material?
Mario Galaxy (is walkoff camping gonna be a big deal in 4v4? Also, are the super early kills gonna come up as often?
Bridge Of Eldin (it's also a walkoff)
Onett (walkoff)

Banned:
Palutena's Temple (Too big even for 4v4 properly)
Temple (kinda the same as above)
The Great Cave Offensive (is far too big even for 4v4 and introduces a lot of weird elements)
Gaur Plain (too big probably even for 4v4 and yay boss character! plus kinda walkoffs)
75 m (too disruptive in hazards, very hard to navigate and probably a bit big even for 4v4)

Note, I'm not JUST doing this to be silly. For one, we probably should have a 4v4 ruleset for side events, on another I think looking at a separate metagame of sorts may teach us some things about the normal 1v1/2v2 kinda game.

So, how's my list?

My list of stages for 4v4 would be:

Starters

Big Battlefield
Omega Stages
Windy Hill Zone
Mario Galaxy
Duck Hunt
----------------------------------
Counterpicks

Onett
Kongo Jungle
Bridge of Eldin
Temple
----------------------------------
Banned

BF
Castle Siege
Gaur Plains
The Great Cave Offensive
Yoshi's Island
Palutena's Temple
75M
----------------------------------

The first 3 stages are pretty obvious additions. I don't think walk-offs are that big a deal in 4v4, so Mario Galaxy is a pretty good and interesting stage imo. Duck Hunt is surprisingly wide and the trees provide enough supplementary space to suit 8 players.

Onett has a unique layout and several zones for teams to fight for control over with enough space for 8 players. Kongo Jungle is the same size as BF, but the layout of the stage makes such a big difference in playability that 4v4 is actually doable. Bridge of Eldin isn't that great, but it isn't bad enough to ban. I feel Temple is worth having since it didn't seem that bad from the matches I've seen on it. It also lets the list have 9 legal stages, which is good for FLSS. The first 5 could be the cutoff for SS with Starter/CP distinctions. I feel Starter/CP stages are an unnecessary distinction personally, but it's there.

BF is just too small. Castle Siege goes from way too small to a good stage and then goes to being BF size minus platforms. I am pretty iffy on Gaur Plains and TGCO. Both are interesting stages, but TGCO is just too big and runaway strats after a lead will probably be too tedious to deal with. Gaur Plains is too empty for my tastes. YI is a pretty bad stage in general since the blocks make it too cramped/disruptive in the middle and the sloped walk-off is lame in practice. Palu's Temple is too big for 6v6 probably, let alone 4v4. 75 M is a terrible Stage.

EDIT: Forgot YI and played on Duck Hunt/Castle Siege some more. Duck Hunt is bigger than I remembered and Castle Siege 1st and 3rd parts are smaller than I remembered. Readjusted the descriptions and list to be a little more organized.

 

[Pazx]

Why play 4v4 when you can play 3v3?

Honestly KJ64 is too small for 8 players imo but for 3v3 I'd suggest

BF
BBF
Siege
FD
Windy Hill
Kongo Jungle
Duck Hunt
1 Walkoff Stage

@ Big O there's no such thing as a neutral stage.

 

[Piford]

I think the really big stages like Palutena's Temple work if you go for time instead of stock (which IMO is better). Walk-off camping isn't a problem at all in 4v4 (or really anything besides 1v1 if that) because you can't camp 4 people simultaneously. The only stage that should be 100% banned is Yoshi's Island. If stock is used over time than stages like Palutena's Temple and Great Cave Offensive need to be removed. We also need to remember the differences between normal stages and their 8-player counterpart since most hazards are removed.

 

[Terotrous]

I see how it is. You like to play 3 stages only, right? Those that don't move at all and lets you blindly run to your opponent.
I see I see.

Lol, I have like 20 stages allowed on my Wii U, including some that aren't usually considered legal like Bridge of Eldin and Wii Fit Studio. PS2 just isn't one of them because it sucks. Well, technically it is, because I recreated PS2 in the stage builder.

Actual combat means "you have proper control of your character and can access all of the abilities normally available". Many of PS2's transformations take these things away, such as the transformation where you're just stuck in the air the entire time or the one where you spend all of your time sliding around.

Are you sure you know BRAWL's Pictochat?
PM's Pictochat is just a VERY dynamic stage, not janky, not disruptive, just constantly changing. If you still think it's bad then there is no point on continuing this argument.

I haven't played VBrawl for ages, so it's possible its Pictochat was atrocious. The one in BBrawl was fine though.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

This video was on the subreddit and the first match was on Gamer. (I assume via Gentleman's.) I'm not so naive as to think the stage seriously has a chance, but it is the first video I remember seeing of a serious match on that stage, so thoughts?

My own impression is that Mom isn't too hard to avoid as long as you're aware of how she can appear.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

 

[thehard]

This video was on the subreddit and the first match was on Gamer. (I assume via Gentleman's.) I'm not so naive as to think the stage seriously has a chance, but it is the first video I remember seeing of a serious match on that stage, so thoughts?

My own impression is that Mom isn't too hard to avoid as long as you're aware of how she can appear.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

Yet they won't try Skyloft

 

[Thinkaman]

I haven't played VBrawl for ages, so it's possible its Pictochat was atrocious. The one in BBrawl was fine though.

doublefingerpistolsandawink.gif

Re: 4v4, I'm gonna make a big 4v4 post soon. I don't want to indulge myself before then.

 

[Terotrous]

doublefingerpistolsandawink.gif

I played a lot of BBrawl, it was solid. I liked the way it tried to fix Brawl rather than just completely changing it, and BBrawl Captain Falcon might well be the funnest character ever. Olimar still too strong though. In the thousands of matches I played with my friend I think Olimar lost twice (we do random vs random).

Actually, my friend was over to play Smash4 for the first time last weekend and he played Captain Falcon and his first response was "what, the air falcon kick to ground falcon kick doesn't work anymore?"


And yes, I know that you and AA made it. I actually posted in a topic about it on Gamefaqs years ago asking you guys to fix the C-Stick fastfall bug, but you never did =(

 

[19_]

Yet they won't try Skyloft

That's just because gamer is one of the best stages in smash history.
Just my opinion though...

This video was on the subreddit and the first match was on Gamer. (I assume via Gentleman's.) I'm not so naive as to think the stage seriously has a chance, but it is the first video I remember seeing of a serious match on that stage, so thoughts?

My own impression is that Mom isn't too hard to avoid as long as you're aware of how she can appear.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

I kinda think stage liberals may be able to push this. Even when there are caves you can still be punished by mom by camping under them. Also if you play the stage allot you can figure out how and when mom shows up.

Think about it. People love this stage and I bet if you had it legal in a tournament "ironically~" then they would be cool with it. Suddenly you get results, actual gameplay, showing that such a stage could be tourney viable. This may backfire though so don't push it, keep in mind it is very random where and when mom shows up.

I still think it's a good idea, even if it does not work. It may just make people more curious in exploring other stages for legality, which I believe is the most important thing.

 

[Tybis]

If and only you choose all 11 of those stages, you are then welcome to begin including these stages:
Wuhu Island/Pokemon Stadium 2/Norfair/Windy Hill Zone

No Luigi's Mansion? I'm offended.

 

[Piford]

This video was on the subreddit and the first match was on Gamer. (I assume via Gentleman's.) I'm not so naive as to think the stage seriously has a chance, but it is the first video I remember seeing of a serious match on that stage, so thoughts?

My own impression is that Mom isn't too hard to avoid as long as you're aware of how she can appear.

Spoiler: Embedded Video

In the beginning of the match they said False can't beat Diddy so Keitaro agreed to go Falco if they went to gamer. Funnily this is actually the second match they had on gamer, the other being this.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I actually agree with Big O's list for 4v4 except if you were going to go down to 5 I'd replace Kongo Jungle with Onett (but full list from those 9 is best). I started to make my own list and then realized that was the only point on which I was different (though I think 75m isn't quite terrible, shouldn't be legal but is better than the other stages on the ban list and you forgot Yoshi's Island which needs to be on the ban list).

 

[Big O]

I changed up my 4v4 list a little bit after playing some more. I played on Duck Hunt some more and never really noticed it was so wide until I tried it with 8 players. 8 players is definitely doable. I also played some Castle Siege and the first part of the stage was ridiculously small. I figured that was forgivable because the second part was pretty cool for 4v4, but the third part of the stage wasn't really as big as I remembered. So 2/3 parts ended up being too small. Kongo Jungle feels bigger than it actually is somehow.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The only reason I don't like Duck Hunt is because I feel compelled to go for the ducks when they appear and it messes up my game. However, I like the stage's layout. Is there any hope of me requesting, if either me or my opponent CPs Duck Hunt, that we play it in 8-player smash mode so the ducks don't appear at all? On that note, is there any benefit to the larger Omega stages that appear in 8 player mode as opposed to standard FD?

 

[Piford]

The only reason I don't like Duck Hunt is because I feel compelled to go for the ducks when they appear and it messes up my game. However, I like the stage's layout. Is there any hope of me requesting, if either me or my opponent CPs Duck Hunt, that we play it in 8-player smash mode so the ducks don't appear at all? On that note, is there any benefit to the larger Omega stages that appear in 8 player mode as opposed to standard FD?

I'm sure most people would be willing to go to the 8 player version if you really wanted too. In fact its probably "better" that way as it has less going on.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Gamer

So what you are saying is since I'm the only one insane enough I have to go legalize Gamer?

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I'm sure most people would be willing to go to the 8 player version if you really wanted too. In fact its probably "better" that way as it has less going on.

It reminds me of how in the 3DS version they would have 4 players on some stages and kill 2 instantly so that certain things don't happen, like Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Forest.

Of course, now Im wondering how other 8-player stages change from normal, though to me the only big deal is Duck Hunt because I hate the distraction.

 

[Piford]

It reminds me of how in the 3DS version they would have 4 players on some stages and kill 2 instantly so that certain things don't happen, like Arena Ferox and Reset Bomb Forest.

Of course, now Im wondering how other 8-player stages change from normal, though to me the only big deal is Duck Hunt because I hate the distraction.

Some remove some visuals like Mario Galaxy and Castle Siege. Metal Face is removed from Gaur Plains, King Bulbin is removed from Bridge of Eldin, and the cars are removed from Onett I think.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Some remove some visuals like Mario Galaxy and Castle Siege. Metal Face is removed from Gaur Plains, King Bulbin is removed from Bridge of Eldin, and the cars are removed from Onett I think.

Interesting. If that's true, 8-player Bridge of Eldin and even Onett might be potential counterpicks. Of course we'd have to get over our walk-off phobia, but on stagelists including Wii Fit Studio and Colosseum, there could be a place for essentially the FD of walkoffs. Onett is less likely because of its weird layout but is still a possibility. If nobody tested it yet, tonight I'll find out whether having two players in 8-player smash mode results in the standard form of a stage or the reduced, 8-player form.

 

[webbedspace]

Here I come again with more data to peruse. Our poll for Smash 4 Worldwide (which has over 1039 responses) has these percentages showing:

55% for Castle Siege
55% for Skyloft
46% for Wuhu Island

I just wanted to revisit this, because from what I've heard the most oft-repeated argument against Skyloft and Wuhu is they promote camping - yet an entire 45 seconds and one third of Castle Siege is unarguably campingvania, at least in comparison to, what, 15 seconds of Wuhu's volcano and bridge, or Skyloft's academy and hovering island? This really feels like unabashed Brawl player bias.

 

[Piford]

I just wanted to revisit this, because from what I've heard the most oft-repeated argument against Skyloft and Wuhu is they promote camping - yet an entire 45 seconds and one third of Castle Siege is unarguably campingvania, at least in comparison to, what, 15 seconds of Wuhu's volcano and bridge, or Skyloft's academy and hovering island? This really feels like unabashed Brawl player bias.

It's actually pretty difficult to camp the second section of Castle Siege if your against a player who knows how to counter it. Skyloft and Wuhu Island are essentially the same where if you know what your doing, camping is a pretty bad strategy. I just watched a match where someone tried to camp on Wuhu Island, the first time they lost their lead (50% lead to a 10% lead) and gave up stage control. The next transition they tried it again and lost their stock, and then preceded to not camp the rest of the match. Most people who complain about camping generally don't know how to punish it.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The Brawl player bias may also include people overestimating the potential of camping because of how Brawl's engine is perceived to be very camp-friendly

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's actually pretty difficult to camp the second section of Castle Siege if your against a player who knows how to counter it. Skyloft and Wuhu Island are essentially the same where if you know what your doing, camping is a pretty bad strategy. I just watched a match where someone tried to camp on Wuhu Island, the first time they lost their lead (50% lead to a 10% lead) and gave up stage control. The next transition they tried it again and lost their stock, and then preceded to not camp the rest of the match. Most people who complain about camping generally don't know how to punish it.

Video link? Or was it a Twitch stream?

 

[19_]

So what you are saying is since I'm the only one insane enough I have to go legalize Gamer?

Make a poll for it. See what happens.



I dare you.



If you didn't hear about it, shockwave actually had kalos legal as a joke as well for one tournament. This would not be the first time people got away with this kind of thing.

This is a really silly suggestion though so feel free to not take this post seriously.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

I can confirm that playing on Duck Hunt with just two players loads the normal version of the stage. You'd need either three or five other players to join and KO themselves to remove the ducks. Still worth it tho

 

[Piford]

Video link? Or was it a Twitch stream?

It was at some random event I went to (well actually just stumble upon mid tournament, the players were good enough though). It was grand finals and the guy counterpicked to Wuhu because he said he could camp to win, and then lost because of it.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

The dog and ducks are not only the most fun part of Duck Hunt but are really necessary for Ganon to be able to fight there at all
(a serious Ganon main would actually always ban the stage, but still...).

I kinda feel like Duck Hunt in 4v4 is effectively a worse version of Omega whereas Castle Siege is unique even if the first form is pretty much pure chaos (the 3rd form isn't really that bad overall). One stage that is pretty much pure chaos is probably good to include, either side can ban it if they want. Siege at least is not *always* that way unlike DH or BF which are.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

The dog and ducks are not only the most fun part of Duck Hunt but are really necessary for Ganon to be able to fight there at all
(a serious Ganon main would actually always ban the stage, but still...).

How is the dog so important for Ganon? Also, yeah the ducks are fun, sometimes I go into training mode and just kill them nonstop, but in an actual match my ADHD kicks in or something along those lines and I cant focus as much on the match because there are these... moving... big... ducks... must kill!!! And then I leave myself open and get destroyed by anyone decent. Of course, I'm a Bowser main so I'd probably be better off banning the stage for matchup reasons anyway

 

[ParanoidDrone]

How is the dog so important for Ganon? Also, yeah the ducks are fun, sometimes I go into training mode and just kill them nonstop, but in an actual match my ADHD kicks in or something along those lines and I cant focus as much on the match because there are these... moving... big... ducks... must kill!!! And then I leave myself open and get destroyed by anyone decent. Of course, I'm a Bowser main so I'd probably be better off banning the stage for matchup reasons anyway

The dog is the only way Ganondorf and Little Mac can reach the tree without using their up special. Since the dog always appears under the spot the last duck was hit (or as close to it as possible if outside its normal range, the dog only appears between the tree and bush), you can deliberately make it appear at a specific place and predictable time for a boost.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I need to stop visiting this thread while putting together research, I can't count on someone else posting in time for me to avoid the double post. Oops.

Anyway, Halberd now has a research thread. Of the remaining stages, only Final Destination/Omega isn't heavily suspect at the very least and I'm saving it for last because lol puns. For the rest:

• Mario Circuit (Brawl)
• Jungle Hijinxs
• Bridge of Eldin
• Temple
• Pyrosphere
• Port Town Aero Dive
• Yoshi's Island (Melee)
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Onett
• Flat Zone X
• Palutena's Temple
• Skyworld
• Boxing Ring
• Gaur Plain
• 75M
• Wrecking Crew
• Pilotwings
• Wily Castle
• Pac-Land

Any preferences? I'm thinking Pilotwings and Jungle Hijinxs to start and then idklolbffjill.

 

[webbedspace]

Wrecking Crew had a lot of people clamouring for its legality last month, and I think most pugilists aren't really fully aware of why it's banned, so that'd be a good choice.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Do Bridge of Eldin because if you can play it during 8 player mode with 3 death fodder players, the hazard doesn't spawn

 

[LiteralGrill]

Make a poll for it. See what happens.

I dare you.

Gamer
Starter: 4%
Counterpick: 18%
Banned: 78%

Should this stage be tested:
Yes: 34%
No: 66%

Already did!

Gamer seems to be the most liked out of many "banned" stages. If folks could find me convincing arguments to test its legality I bet I could legalize it for maybe one night to see what people thought. At a minimum it might be fun.

I've considered doing an "odd stages" tournament too. Not really stage testing like before, but using the more out there stages just for fun in case any blew our minds. Maybe it belongs there?