Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

I want to see people try to camp on this stage and win.

That's likely whats going to happen if it's legalized as people have no idea how to punish camping. It's really easy on all transforming stages, but people can't do it/won't learn to do it so they want it banned instead I'd like to see people try to camp on Wuhu Island against pro players and win multiple times. The first time it happens it's sort of like a surprise and you aren't really able to handle it. The next couple of times you play it you realize more and more how to punish it.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

That's likely whats going to happen if it's legalized as people have no idea how to punish camping. It's really easy on all transforming stages, but people can't do it/won't learn to do it so they want it banned instead I'd like to see people try to camp on Wuhu Island against pro players and win multiple times. The first time it happens it's sort of like a surprise and you aren't really able to handle it. The next couple of times you play it you realize more and more how to punish it.

Exactly, wuhu island is the type of stage that will get waaaaay better over time. Sure, right now matches could easily go to time out on it due to people waiting at the ends of the stage, but once people start learning how to deal with it, matches will go faster and faster on it.

Of course, the close minded and impatient attitude of community isn't going to help us. >.>

 

[PokéMurio]

Can someone give me brief explanation why Omega Forms are not usually considered as competitive, whereas Final Destination is? Also why stages with no "abyss", for example Colosseum, Wii Fit Studio and Mario Galaxy, are not competitive?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Can someone give me brief explanation why Omega Forms are not usually considered as competitive, whereas Final Destination is? Also why stages with no "abyss", for example Colosseum, Wii Fit Studio and Mario Galaxy, are not competitive?

Not sure where you got the info on omega forms not being competitive. Are you sure you don't mean why some people don't consider them neutral? Certain characters do get good advantages being on a stage without platforms. Projectiles, for example, become much better.

As for stages with no bottom list pits, it's usually due to the fact that the match basically becomes a coin flip. Either the opponent doing the camping gets a back throw out, or the opposing player can out maneuver the opponent to get a kill themselves.

This usually can get people killed at very low percentages, which is why they are often looked down upon.

Don't listen to people who criticize stages with temporary walk-offs though. Temporary walk-offs are just that, temporary. Not to mention, in order for someone to take part in the camping, they have to give up stage positioning, putting them in a worst spot when the platforms come back.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

As for stages with no bottom list pits, it's usually due to the fact that the match basically becomes a coin flip. Either the opponent doing the camping gets a back throw out, or the opposing player can out maneuver the opponent to get a kill themselves.

This usually can get people killed at very low percentages, which is why they are often looked down upon.

I agree that camping a permanent walkoff is a very volatile position for both parties, but I'm not sure if any footage exists of someone actually doing so. (And winning.)

 

[PokéMurio]

Not sure where you got the info on omega forms not being competitive. Are you sure you don't mean why some people don't consider them neutral? Certain characters do get good advantages being on a stage without platforms. Projectiles, for example, become much better.

As for stages with no bottom list pits, it's usually due to the fact that the match basically becomes a coin flip. Either the opponent doing the camping gets a back throw out, or the opposing player can out maneuver the opponent to get a kill themselves.

This usually can get people killed at very low percentages, which is why they are often looked down upon.

Don't listen to people who criticize stages with temporary walk-offs though. Temporary walk-offs are just that, temporary. Not to mention, in order for someone to take part in the camping, they have to give up stage positioning, putting them in a worst spot when the platforms come back.

Well basically I got the info from the competitive stage list on this thread and also watching lot of different streams etc. People just do not usually pick Omega forms competitively.
And I was wondering that camping near killzone would be the reason for bottom pitless stages. Thank you for confirming!

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Well basically I got the info from the competitive stage list on this thread and also watching lot of different streams etc. People just do not usually pick Omega forms competitively.

That isn't them thinking it's not competitive, thats just people liking stages like Smashville more.

I agree that camping a permanent walkoff is a very volatile position for both parties, but I'm not sure if any footage exists of someone actually doing so. (And winning.)

Either way, even if the results end up showing more positive outcomes, the possibility doesn't sit right with me.

Also the possibility of one player is at a extremely high percent but gets a kill on another player, they can just wait by the blast zones because they were going to be killed anyway.

Either way, all of this is actually based on what @ Thinkaman said, so talk to him about it.

 

[NickC]

Hey guys, do you guys know if there is a list somewhere of ceiling heights for legal stages?

 

[Thinkaman]

Hey guys, do you guys know if there is a list somewhere of ceiling heights for legal stages?

http://smashboards.com/threads/ceiling-height-research-thread.384187/#post-18400308

 

[Pazx]

I just did a half-assed job at cleaning that thread up, go check it out.

 

[NickC]

Awesome, TY guys. Im heading to a tournament tomorrow and wanna know what to CP against diddys up air.

 

[Rokuro777]

75m seems to be the worst stage to me, although I'm pretty sure it would be banned from tourney play most of the time. Who actually enjoys that stage for its competative value?

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Saw a couple of Skyloft matches during Smash 4 Worldwide today. I dunno how I feel about it really. The one match had a ZSS and Diddy going in and the match still took till like the 1:30 mark, but then I saw a Ness vs. Sheik being really safe and a little campy and it didn't go nearly as long? It was weird.

I think if people worked on it over time it would survive as they got used to its tricks, but with camping potential, powerful (if extremely avoidable) hazards, walkoffs, and occasionally awkward layouts, I feel it may be fighting a losing battle, especially with how picky people seem to be.

 

[Pazx]

There is no camping potential on Skyloft.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It would really help if we had a standard definition of "camping" as opposed to just "zoning." Not to mention that the only sort of camping we care about for stage legality (namely, the sort that would last forever if we let it) is impossible on transforming stages because, surprise, they transform.

 

[thehard]

It's always funny when Twitch chat goes crazy due to 5 seconds (literally) of defensive play on Delfino's 2nd spot.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Isn't camping just trying to get as uninvolved in a fight as possible/Standing in one spot?

Skyloft does have camping spots. However, the thing is the camping is in no way dominant. It's heavily punishable even.

You can still camp and waste time though.

It's important that camping itself isn't ban worthy. It's when it is taken to the extreme where it gives you a huge advantage can an argument for a ban can be made for it. Like Pilotwings.

 

[Pazx]

Can somebody link me to the thread or quote the post where it was discovered that certain 2 dimensional stages affect moves and dodges that use the Z axis? I thought it was in this thread but I can't seem to find it.

For those who aren't aware, pac land/duck hunt/flat zone make character models 2d which is mostly cosmetic although it's been noted to affect Greninja's smashes positively and certain spot dodges negatively.

 

[Space thing]

Can somebody link me to the thread or quote the post where it was discovered that certain 2 dimensional stages affect moves and dodges that use the Z axis? I thought it was in this thread but I can't seem to find it.

For those who aren't aware, pac land/duck hunt/flat zone make character models 2d which is mostly cosmetic although it's been noted to affect Greninja's smashes positively and certain spot dodges negatively.

I don't know if this is the one that you're looking for, but @Lavani points it out for Greninja in this thread here on the Greninja forums: http://smashboards.com/threads/the-pond-greninja-social-thread.368762/page-22

And here's the post

Discovery of the day, and something I'd been suspecting for awhile: Greninja's blind spots when facing right are Z axis related. Flat Zone X, Duck Hunt, and PAC-Land (Wii U) and Flat Zone 2 (3DS) are actually 2D stages with no Z axis, and for fsmash vs idle opponents playing on these stages fixes the blind spot. Omega versions of these stages share this property.

EDIT: Fair's blind spot also appears to be smaller on flat stages.

EDIT2: Might actually be gone entirely, jesus the last active frame has hitboxes practically on Greninja's face

 

[Piford]

Isn't camping just trying to get as uninvolved in a fight as possible/Standing in one spot?

Skyloft does have camping spots. However, the thing is the camping is in no way dominant. It's heavily punishable even.

You can still camp and waste time though.

It's important that camping itself isn't ban worthy. It's when it is taken to the extreme where it gives you a huge advantage can an argument for a ban can be made for it. Like Pilotwings.

You can't even really camp to waste time in Skyloft because of how punishable it is. The 10 seconds you'd waste isn't worth the percent you'd take on the punish, so no good player would actually do that. Camping on Skyloft is kinda similar to scrooging with how it waste time, but it's really not worth the risk of being punished.

Also I "like" how people see 10 seconds of camping on Skyloft and call for a stage ban, but when Sonic camps for 8 minutes on Final Destination it's completely okay. People really need to actually look at the good stages bring instead of trying extremely hard to find the most insignificant bad thing.

Edit: Scrooging not scrolling

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I camp for 6-8 minutes on every stage. I don't think Skyloft helps me camp especially; you'll need a stage where I don't have a Luma to stop me from camping. Campers are going to camp, and your stage rules aren't going to change that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Wrecking Crew has a research thread now. Maybe I was just a bit out of it today but it took a while for me to figure out what was going on.

 

[DanGR]

Maybe I was just a bit out of it today

This is where I usually put something approaching wittiness. I got nothing today.

Yup, definitely out of it. Step it up man.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yup, definitely out of it. Step it up man.

I'm impressed you went to the trouble of copying the post link too.

 

[DanGR]

I've been copy-pasting Apex attendance data for the last couple hours, so this is nothing comparatively.

 

[Piford]

You'll need a stage where I don't have a Luma to stop me from camping.

Norfair?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I've been copy-pasting Apex attendance data for the last couple hours, so this is nothing comparatively.

My condolences.

Norfair?

It's true, Norfair is kind of hellish for Rosalina since the stage itself tends to kill Luma off pretty often.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Nah, Rosalina is great on Norfair. With the Luma you can super easily control an entire platform, and if people dare reside on the platform above you, you can make life hell. Sure the lava can kill Luma, but don't get hit and it's all good unless it's the background wave but if you can't win the battle for that little house as Rosalina you are doing something very wrong and it doesn't even come that often so whatever. The geography actually helps you whereas it screws up a lot of other characters; that's the main thing to take away from Norfair. I mean, Norfair was legal in my region in Brawl forever and was my main CP and I'm super comfortable on the stage so that's definitely a part of it, but I feel like it does more for me as Rosalina than it ever did for me as G&W and it won me a lot of games as Brawl G&W. This isn't even an argument for Norfair's legality (I think it actually plays a bit worse than it did in Brawl and I'm more concerned with saying no to bad bans like Skyloft/Wuhu/Windy/PS2 than more reasonable ones like Norfair), but hey, if someone offers me Norfair in tournament and their name isn't Thinkaman I'll probably accept.

In other words, there isn't really any stage even among the banned ones I actually fear as Rosalina. Pac-Land would probably be the worst and Wily Castle/Pyrosphere would annoy me a lot but even then I'd keep the faith in the Rosalina probably and would be sure to keep my patience game in full swing. Those three stages have about a 0% chance of being legal at any possible tournament even a super liberal one though so I'm not exactly concerned about them. The ironic part is that, while I like transforming stages, I probably camp on them a tiny bit less on average just because of the way they force more movement; I don't enjoy playing on only SV but if I have to expect some serious turtle mode.

 

[thehard]

I would just like to say that camping can be exciting if it's "active" and if you understand the decisions being made. Just like timeouts can be exciting if it comes down to the wire with a small percentage different.

There's also a straight up difference between camping, stalling, and defensive play.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Nah, Rosalina is great on Norfair. With the Luma you can super easily control an entire platform, and if people dare reside on the platform above you, you can make life hell. Sure the lava can kill Luma, but don't get hit and it's all good unless it's the background wave but if you can't win the battle for that little house as Rosalina you are doing something very wrong and it doesn't even come that often so whatever. The geography actually helps you whereas it screws up a lot of other characters; that's the main thing to take away from Norfair. I mean, Norfair was legal in my region in Brawl forever and was my main CP and I'm super comfortable on the stage so that's definitely a part of it, but I feel like it does more for me as Rosalina than it ever did for me as G&W and it won me a lot of games as Brawl G&W. This isn't even an argument for Norfair's legality (I think it actually plays a bit worse than it did in Brawl and I'm more concerned with saying no to bad bans like Skyloft/Wuhu/Windy/PS2 than more reasonable ones like Norfair), but hey, if someone offers me Norfair in tournament and their name isn't Thinkaman I'll probably accept.

In other words, there isn't really any stage even among the banned ones I actually fear as Rosalina. Pac-Land would probably be the worst and Wily Castle/Pyrosphere would annoy me a lot but even then I'd keep the faith in the Rosalina probably and would be sure to keep my patience game in full swing. Those three stages have about a 0% chance of being legal at any possible tournament even a super liberal one though so I'm not exactly concerned about them. The ironic part is that, while I like transforming stages, I probably camp on them a tiny bit less on average just because of the way they force more movement; I don't enjoy playing on only SV but if I have to expect some serious turtle mode.

I mean, I like Norfair and I think that if I were to be on the stage against the average comp. player (assuming roughly even skill) I'd probably have the advantage just for actually knowing the stage. And I'm sure Rosalina has her tricks based on the layout. But the last time I had some serious matches there I remember Luma dying an awful lot.

 

[ShneeOscar]

The lack of a main platform is rather annoying though.

 

[Piford]

Wily Castle

That's like the best stage for Rosalina. You just camp behind the Yellow Devil and have Luma do all the work with 0 fear of getting attacked.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's like the best stage for Rosalina. You just camp behind the Yellow Devil and have Luma do all the work with 0 fear of getting attacked.

You can also GPull his eye laser things I think.

*finger twirl*

 

[webbedspace]

75m seems to be the worst stage to me, although I'm pretty sure it would be banned from tourney play most of the time. Who actually enjoys that stage for its competative value?

The real worst stage is Yoshi's Island Melee. Placing a pit right where the neutral game needs to take place, and framing the air above with those horrendous blocks... yeesh. (If only they were Mushroom Kingdom U blocks...)

*doesn't even mention the walk-off*

 

[ParanoidDrone]

The real worst stage is Yoshi's Island Melee. Placing a pit right where the neutral game needs to take place, and framing the air above with those horrendous blocks... yeesh. (If only they were Mushroom Kingdom U blocks...)

*doesn't even mention the walk-off*

Bonus points when the game puts you there in full 8P Smash mode in classic.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I really like Yoshi's Island Melee; it rewards stage control so hard and also just has an endless bounty of gifts to players who have a deep bag of tricks and general shenanigans. It really shouldn't be legal, but if it somehow were, the things I could do with that stage...

For serious though, under all this there was some point about camping, Skyloft, Wuhu, etc.. What would be interesting would be some actual metrics of average match length on various stages between educated players (players should have a general high skill and be deeply familiar with all stages in question). Would Skyloft and Wuhu actually be slower than other stages? My intuition is "no", but it would be very interesting science and, if I'm right, would help win the war of the words on these two.

 

[webbedspace]

Are there actually unmined strategems to be found in a concave stage like YI Melee? Or do you refer to tricks with the pit blocks? If it were flipped horizontally, with the walk-off replaced with a second pipe + ledge (and maybe those floating blocks removed) would it suddenly be a top notch stage?

 

[Pazx]

Are there actually unmined strategems to be found in a concave stage like YI Melee? Or do you refer to tricks with the pit blocks? If it were flipped horizontally, with the walk-off replaced with a second pipe + ledge (and maybe those floating blocks removed) would it suddenly be a top notch stage?

I'm sure Ampharos and Drone would be very good on that stage with their stage control, however it'd be far from a good stage. The floating blocks and the pipes mean teching galore (did somebody say cave of life?) and the pit in the center is bad with the other blocks already restricting mobility. If there were no floating blocks and no walkoff (but keeping the pit and x2 pipes) it's be an okay stage, I'd push for it to be viable/legal but I'm not sure it would be. If anything, the walkoff is the least of it's problems. /theory

 

[Piford]

For serious though, under all this there was some point about camping, Skyloft, Wuhu, etc.. What would be interesting would be some actual metrics of average match length on various stages between educated players (players should have a general high skill and be deeply familiar with all stages in question). Would Skyloft and Wuhu actually be slower than other stages? My intuition is "no", but it would be very interesting science and, if I'm right, would help win the war of the words on these two.

That'd be great data if any tournament actually allowed those stages instead of banning them. Also it'd still be pretty hard to do even if we had matches just because some people play campier, and some characters are campier. So if we compare a bunch of Falcon vs ZSS on Battlefield to Duck Hunt vs Link on Skyloft we wouldn't really be doing a fair comparison.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I really like Yoshi's Island Melee; it rewards stage control so hard and also just has an endless bounty of gifts to players who have a deep bag of tricks and general shenanigans. It really shouldn't be legal, but if it somehow were, the things I could do with that stage...

For serious though, under all this there was some point about camping, Skyloft, Wuhu, etc.. What would be interesting would be some actual metrics of average match length on various stages between educated players (players should have a general high skill and be deeply familiar with all stages in question). Would Skyloft and Wuhu actually be slower than other stages? My intuition is "no", but it would be very interesting science and, if I'm right, would help win the war of the words on these two.

I agree that stage control is very powerful there, but the blocks and slopes just make the whole thing feel so cramped. I think the blast lines are also oddly close but I'm not sure.