Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[VKatana]

I haven't been following this thread as long as I should have, so forgive me if this is a dumb question.
What's the particular reasoning that Pilotwings is not considered legal? Or is it considered legal? I feel like PW ought to be considered a legitimate counter pick against projectile based characters due to the tilt. Some players may even study the order and timing of tilts (if it isn't randomized) to get an upper hand.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I haven't been following this thread as long as I should have, so forgive me if this is a dumb question.
What's the particular reasoning that Pilotwings is not considered legal? Or is it considered legal? I feel like PW ought to be considered a legitimate counter pick against projectile based characters due to the tilt. Some players may even study the order and timing of tilts (if it isn't randomized) to get an upper hand.

Both planes have strong camping positions. On the red biplane, you can stand on the lower wing next to the cockpit. On the yellow monoplane, you can stand on the engines located below the wings.

 

[Pazx]

Honestly it's a good stage for projectile characters, and by good I mean completely broken. The only non-projectile character viable on PW is Jigglypuff.

 

[smashmachine]

is there a link to all the stage analysis threads?

 

[Pazx]

is there a link to all the stage analysis threads?

http://smashboards.com/threads/wrecking-crew-stage-research.387506/

Post contains links to all other research threads.

 

[webbedspace]

The definitive Pilotwings camping example video is here.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

is there a link to all the stage analysis threads?

http://smashboards.com/threads/wrecking-crew-stage-research.387506/

Post contains links to all other research threads.

It should also go without saying that I don't update old threads with links to new ones, but I do post notifications in this thread when the next one goes up.

 

[Terotrous]

The definitive Pilotwings camping example video is here.

Yuck. I hadn't seen this video before, it's awful.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I hereby propose to somehow archive that Pilotwings video for posterity so that we may easily reference it whenever the question comes up again. All in favor?

Disclaimer: I have no idea how to do this.

 

[VKatana]

I hereby propose to somehow archive that Pilotwings video for posterity so that we may easily reference it whenever the question comes up again. All in favor?

Disclaimer: I have no idea how to do this.

I second this. I suppose its good we're asking these questions now so as the Smash Wii U community grows and people come forth with similar questions and wanting to know the best counterpicks for their characters or playstyles, we can tell them what the legal/viable stages are.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

So, I hear talk of Wuhu and Yoshi's? Wuhu banned? Wat? Why? As for Yoshi's, I want to experiment with it. It seems like it has potential, and could be a really great counterpick, but nobody is willing to test it. :/

 

[Piford]

So, I hear talk of Wuhu and Yoshi's? Wuhu banned? Wat? Why? As for Yoshi's, I want to experiment with it. It seems like it has potential, and could be a really great counterpick, but nobody is willing to test it. :/

Most people want Wuhu banned because of the boat glitch, even though that's not even close to a legitimate reason to ban the stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Wait, I thought that VGBC video was a joke. They even said "we're not serious with the title". I mean, if it was the size or something, or some stalling tactic I missed, okay, but that? Are they stupid or something?

 

[19_]

I hereby propose to somehow archive that Pilotwings video for posterity so that we may easily reference it whenever the question comes up again. All in favor?

Disclaimer: I have no idea how to do this.

I second this. I suppose its good we're asking these questions now so as the Smash Wii U community grows and people come forth with similar questions and wanting to know the best counterpicks for their characters or playstyles, we can tell them what the legal/viable stages are.

I have an idea.

@ ParanoidDrone Incorporate this into your stage research project. The legality of stages is something I would imagine many TO's struggle with so having a list of evidence/videos explaining the reasons for bans / counterpicks would be nice to see.

 

[Piford]

Wait, I thought that VGBC video was a joke. They even said "we're not serious with the title". I mean, if it was the size or something, or some stalling tactic I missed, okay, but that? Are they stupid or something?

Tantalus specifically stated it as the reason for the ban at Xanadu. Many people saw the title and then assumed it was banned and that it was a reason for a stage to be banned. Most people just blindly followed and say the stage should be banned. Try and spread the word that the stage should be legal as the glitch is nearly impossible to recreate and there have been similar glitches on legal stages in the past.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have an idea.

@ ParanoidDrone Incorporate this into your stage research project. The legality of stages is something I would imagine many TO's struggle with so having a list of evidence/videos explaining the reasons for bans / counterpicks would be nice to see.

An excellent idea but I lack the resources to do so. I'm not part of any RL Smash scene, for starters, and I don't have any capture equipment either. I'm willing to play the part of online guinea pig but that's the extent of what I can do at this point.

That said if anyone else were to step up and either hunt down or create video footage, it would be a major boon and I would definitely support such an effort to the extent I'm able. (Which isn't much but still.)

 

[Krysco]

An excellent idea but I lack the resources to do so. I'm not part of any RL Smash scene, for starters, and I don't have any capture equipment either. I'm willing to play the part of online guinea pig but that's the extent of what I can do at this point.

That said if anyone else were to step up and either hunt down or create video footage, it would be a major boon and I would definitely support such an effort to the extent I'm able. (Which isn't much but still.)

I have a capture card and with my cousin I could have matches on stages showing either why they should be legal or banned. Could even try showing the success/failure of camping on Skyloft and Wuhu. Would depend on him being willing to do so though and for some stages I might need advice for what to show and not show.

I suppose I could try online matches but that comes with the issue of lag online and I'd have to hook up my Wii U somewhere else since it doesn't connect to the internet where I am. At the very least you and I could try to have some matches showing why stages should or shouldn't be legal or anyone else willing to participate. Heck even if I sd off the bat, so long as I'm recording the match with most likely more skilled players than myself playing.

 

[thehard]

Tantalus specifically stated it as the reason for the ban at Xanadu. Many people saw the title and then assumed it was banned and that it was a reason for a stage to be banned. Most people just blindly followed and say the stage should be banned. Try and spread the word that the stage should be legal as the glitch is nearly impossible to recreate and there have been similar glitches on legal stages in the past.

This is only partially true. People also hate the layouts of the destinations. Not that that's a ban reason, but it's there

 

[Teshie U]

Witnessed a local villager player circle camping on pilotwings this past weekend.

The stage is so basic yet so broken. It really doesn't offer any competitive value. If it didn't have the circle camping it would just be a tilting FD anyway.

 

[webbedspace]

Witnessed a local villager player circle camping on pilotwings this past weekend.

The stage is so basic yet so broken. It really doesn't offer any competitive value. If it didn't have the circle camping it would just be a tilting FD anyway.

I think there's call for a tilting FD as a stage option, insofar as it could serve as a counterpick against straight-line projectile users (which Lylat Cruise sorta serves as at the moment) and when custom stage distribution becomes available I'd like to see experiments with slanted single platforms.

 

[LiteralGrill]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ man a name I have not seen in a long while... I hate to say it, but you totally should consider rewriting your Pokemon Stadium 2 Legality arguments for Smash 4 since the stage has had slight changes. It'd be nice to have when people ask me why the stage is legal.

Lots of discussion has been happening and smashboards decided not to update my subscribed thread... Thanks Obama...

ANYWAYS I will say again if Smash 4 Worldwide showed anything, adding more stages isn't gonna happen. Now a fight for Wuhu and Pokemon Stadium 2 though is very possible, same for continuing to make sure Castle Siege and Skyloft stay legal. If Smash 4 Worldwide 2 happens (which by the way it's already in the works and is likely to) I hope this time to at a minimum return Wuhu Island to the list and see what we can do about Pokemon Stadium 2. Hypest isn't changing its stagelist for now (though we keep meaning to update to FLSS) so at least one big place will see these stages legal.

Though to be honest, anything different/largest then the current Hypest stagelist will be asking for a lot. Folks are already hard to convince on things and especially after our previous stage test I don't see any other stages people would even have enough love for to try and legalize.

 

[Piford]

@ Budget Player Cadet_ man a name I have not seen in a long while... I hate to say it, but you totally should consider rewriting your Pokemon Stadium 2 Legality arguments for Smash 4 since the stage has had slight changes. It'd be nice to have when people ask me why the stage is legal.

Lots of discussion has been happening and smashboards decided not to update my subscribed thread... Thanks Obama...

ANYWAYS I will say again if Smash 4 Worldwide showed anything, adding more stages isn't gonna happen. Now a fight for Wuhu and Pokemon Stadium 2 though is very possible, same for continuing to make sure Castle Siege and Skyloft stay legal. If Smash 4 Worldwide 2 happens (which by the way it's already in the works and is likely to) I hope this time to at a minimum return Wuhu Island to the list and see what we can do about Pokemon Stadium 2. Hypest isn't changing its stagelist for now (though we keep meaning to update to FLSS) so at least one big place will see these stages legal.

Though to be honest, anything different/largest then the current Hypest stagelist will be asking for a lot. Folks are already hard to convince on things and especially after our previous stage test I don't see any other stages people would even have enough love for to try and legalize.

Can I just say that the voters in the Smash World Wide seemed a little ban happy and probably didn't know what's best for the game. If I recall, more people wanted Miis banned than Wuhu Island. I'm going to harshfully (and probably wrongfully) assume that they wanted less to learn and deal with, so they opted to ban most things. I think you should just make the stage legal and when someone asks for it to be banned, simply tell them to strike it if they don't like, and that they are not required to pick it even if it is legal. I mean 90% of matches are going to end up on Smashville anyways.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Slightly off topic but @ LiteralGrill tomorrow's gonna be my first Hypest tournament. Is FLSS in effect yet or is it still starter/counterpick cause you guys' FAQ says FLSS but the ruleset is still starter/counter.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Can I just say that the voters in the Smash World Wide seemed a little ban happy and probably didn't know what's best for the game. If I recall, more people wanted Miis banned than Wuhu Island. I'm going to harshfully (and probably wrongfully) assume that they wanted less to learn and deal with, so they opted to ban most things. I think you should just make the stage legal and when someone asks for it to be banned, simply tell them to strike it if they don't like, and that they are not required to pick it even if it is legal. I mean 90% of matches are going to end up on Smashville anyways.

Well... If Hypest is running FLSS by then... And Hypest is hosting.... We may need more stages~

Slightly off topic but @ LiteralGrill tomorrow's gonna be my first Hypest tournament. Is FLSS in effect yet or is it still starter/counterpick cause you guys' FAQ says FLSS but the ruleset is still starter/counter.

Our guy must have updated the FAQ early. After Apex we expect to move to FLSS more then likely.

 

[wildvine47]

Well... If Hypest is running FLSS by then... And Hypest is hosting.... We may need more stages~

If you need more stages, what options do we have left that were fringe cases? Wii Fit Studio and Colosseum have the walkoff issue, Mario Circuit 8 has that awful Kirby/Meta/Zard upthrow bug, Mushroom Kingdom U has Nabbit, and Orbital Gate, Norfair, Woolly World, and Wrecking Crew are doomed to forever have negative press/opinions for all of time, more than anything else.

What does that leave for leftover viable stages then? Windy Hill Zone? Big Battlefield? Luigi's Mansion?

I feel Luigi's Mansion and Windy Hill Zone could prove to be accepted additions with enough exposure, but Bigfield I've not heard much opinion about.

 

[Terotrous]

Forgive me for being ignorant but what does FLSS stand for?

 

[Funen1]

Forgive me for being ignorant but what does FLSS stand for?

Don't worry about feeling "ignorant" or anything. We all learn new things with time.

FLSS stands for "full-list stage striking". It's a form of stage selection that doesn't use the starter/CP distinction, instead considering all stages as either "legal" or "banned" and allowing all the legal stages to be selected in the first game through a standard striking procedure (all the following games in a set are the same as what's normally seen in tournaments, stage bans by the winner and a counterpick by the loser).

 

[Terotrous]

FLSS stands for "full-list stage striking"

Oh, okay, I know what that is, I just didn't recognize the acronym. I thought it was some kind of stage list.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If you need more stages, what options do we have left that were fringe cases? Wii Fit Studio and Colosseum have the walkoff issue, Mario Circuit 8 has that awful Kirby/Meta/Zard upthrow bug, Mushroom Kingdom U has Nabbit, and Orbital Gate, Norfair, Woolly World, and Wrecking Crew are doomed to forever have negative press/opinions for all of time, more than anything else.

What does that leave for leftover viable stages then? Windy Hill Zone? Big Battlefield? Luigi's Mansion?

I feel Luigi's Mansion and Windy Hill Zone could prove to be accepted additions with enough exposure, but Bigfield I've not heard much opinion about.

By more, I meant more then Smash 4 Worldwide had. Hypest's stagelist has a perfect odd number as it stands, so we could just run that normally.

Windy Hill Zone and Mario Circuit Wii U are the only stages that have any sort of possibility of maybe being legal with the public and all, and neither are exactly perfect choices.

 

[wildvine47]

By more, I meant more then Smash 4 Worldwide had. Hypest's stagelist has a perfect odd number as it stands, so we could just run that normally.

Windy Hill Zone and Mario Circuit Wii U are the only stages that have any sort of possibility of maybe being legal with the public and all, and neither are exactly perfect choices.

Are people that against Luigi's Mansion? What's the big problem with it? The (easily destructible) caves of life?

 

[LiteralGrill]

Are people that against Luigi's Mansion? What's the big problem with it? The (easily destructible) caves of life?

When we ran it during stage testing the caves of life plus the possible circle camping combined was just a bit too much. People who tried to made games go on a VERY long time and it was basically abuse the stage till it died as gameplay. It's not horrid but I wouldn't use it unless 100% necessary.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Luigi's Mansion is more than anything a really obnoxious stage. I haven't played it much in 4. In Brawl it was one of the slowest stages in the game but was at least extremely tactical and had a very complex stage specific metagame associated with it. Some hate the stage because of how matches there are a chore, but let me tell you, when you grind out a match there and win, you feel a whole lot more proud than usual!

Beyond the 14 I push a lot, I think the next best stage is definitely Mario Circuit if you wanted 15. Beyond that it gets harder; Kalos is fairly disruptive but reasonably fair really, Big Battlefield is an extremely obnoxious stage itself but probably not truly unfair (how miserable it is to play on 1v1 reminds me a lot of Tomodachi Life from the 3ds version really), Mushroom Kingdom U has the "way too disruptive" Nabbit but is otherwise okay, and Orbital Gate Assault is just Rainbow Cruise in space if you're into that sort of thing. After those you start getting into Norfair and Port Town Aero Dive and then into the walk-offs and then into the really bad stages. Given that we have the tragic reality of people wanting to run 3 starters not very many counterpicks I'd rather defend our core competent stages; banning all around quality stages like Skyloft and Wuhu Island (and having tiny starter lists) just doesn't make sense to me.

 

[Terotrous]

how miserable it is to play on 1v1 reminds me a lot of Tomodachi Life from the 3ds version really

I still really like this stage. It's very different, but I don't think it's too broken. I actually recreated it in the stage builder on Wii U.

 

[Piford]

I feel like Tomodachi Life would've been perfect with 1 fewer layer (so essentially Luigi's Mansion without the caves of life). It was still a pretty good stage, and I love the Music. Also Norfair is definitely the next best stage after Mario Circuit.

I agree that getting people to accept actually good stages like Caste Siege, Skyloft, and Wuhu Island should be a priority, but still how do we do that? Most people seem to refuse to listen when you try to convince them that they are good stages.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Luigi's Mansion is more than anything a really obnoxious stage. I haven't played it much in 4. In Brawl it was one of the slowest stages in the game but was at least extremely tactical and had a very complex stage specific metagame associated with it. Some hate the stage because of how matches there are a chore, but let me tell you, when you grind out a match there and win, you feel a whole lot more proud than usual!

Beyond the 14 I push a lot, I think the next best stage is definitely Mario Circuit if you wanted 15. Beyond that it gets harder; Kalos is fairly disruptive but reasonably fair really, Big Battlefield is an extremely obnoxious stage itself but probably not truly unfair (how miserable it is to play on 1v1 reminds me a lot of Tomodachi Life from the 3ds version really), Mushroom Kingdom U has the "way too disruptive" Nabbit but is otherwise okay, and Orbital Gate Assault is just Rainbow Cruise in space if you're into that sort of thing. After those you start getting into Norfair and Port Town Aero Dive and then into the walk-offs and then into the really bad stages. Given that we have the tragic reality of people wanting to run 3 starters not very many counterpicks I'd rather defend our core competent stages; banning all around quality stages like Skyloft and Wuhu Island (and having tiny starter lists) just doesn't make sense to me.

Wait, you push Orbital Gate Assault, Luigi's Mansion, and Kalos over PTAD and Norfair? Seriously? Why?

 

[Brickbox]

has anyone made a list of blast zone data?

If someone could rank all the legal stages by how big the vertical and horizontal blast zones are that would be insanely useful.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Wait, you push Orbital Gate Assault, Luigi's Mansion, and Kalos over PTAD and Norfair? Seriously? Why?

I wouldn't put Luigi's over Norfair and PTAD. Kalos is better, more hazardous but people just aren't familiar like they are with Norfair (but it's seriously not that bad... especially since Norfair's geography is overall more polarizing in 4 than in Brawl). OGA is pretty much Rainbow Cruise in space, way less bad than most people think. I'm not really pushing for it to be legal, but I wouldn't be even a little mad to show up to an event with it legal. I just kinda get a sense that if people didn't see "overwhelmingly legal" on the stages that weren't in Brawl they didn't explore them enough; I did, and really, Kalos and OGA are decently playable even if they have real flaws.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I wouldn't put Luigi's over Norfair and PTAD. Kalos is better, more hazardous but people just aren't familiar like they are with Norfair (but it's seriously not that bad... especially since Norfair's geography is overall more polarizing in 4 than in Brawl). OGA is pretty much Rainbow Cruise in space, way less bad than most people think. I'm not really pushing for it to be legal, but I wouldn't be even a little mad to show up to an event with it legal. I just kinda get a sense that if people didn't see "overwhelmingly legal" on the stages that weren't in Brawl they didn't explore them enough; I did, and really, Kalos and OGA are decently playable even if they have real flaws.

Kalos's only real problem is Registeel and maybe Rayquaza.

@ LiteralGrill next time Hypest does some sort of special gimmick tournament and you're in the mood for experimenting, consider a "no returning stages" stagelist. That should prove interesting, it would mean no Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat, Delfino, FD, maybe Omegas depending on how you slice it.

 

[Piford]

@ LiteralGrill next time Hypest does some sort of special gimmick tournament and you're in the mood for experimenting, consider a "no returning stages" stagelist. That should prove interesting, it would mean no Battlefield, Smashville, Lylat, Delfino, FD, maybe Omegas depending on how you slice it.

Honestly I think a stage learning one would be better, where the only legal stages are Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Skyloft, and Pokémon Stadium 2 (Maybe Halberd too). Most people seem unfamiliar with these stages and that's why they want them banned, and don't realize how to counter any strategies they might bring. Being forced to play on them over and over would help that.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Honestly I think a stage learning one would be better, where the only legal stages are Wuhu Island, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Skyloft, and Pokémon Stadium 2 (Maybe Halberd too). Most people seem unfamiliar with these stages and that's why they want them banned, and don't realize how to counter any strategies they might bring. Being forced to play on them over and over would help that.

Hmm...with this I'm picturing Swiss style, where each round only has a single stage allowed.