Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Thinkaman]

Hmm...with this I'm picturing Swiss style, where each round only has a single stage allowed.

I've always thought this was actually the best possible tourney format, but it would never catch on because the change is too great.

Not gonna write any more on it, because I'd be here all night.

 

[Pazx]

Swiss is good.

Swiss with a single stage for each round is good for a stage testing tournament.

Swiss with a single stage for each round is probably not so good for a larger tournament.

 

[LEGOfan12]

I wouldn't miss FD if it was outright banned. It's obnoxious on HD TVs, it's unplayable on CRTs and it's unplayable for people with colour vision deficiency. Pick any Omega, make it the starter stage, they're all better than FD. FD being the "original" means nothing.

I think the general consensus is that Omega stages are treated at a single entity (along with FD) during striking and banning and the counterpicking
I do, however, have this suggestion: Striking/banning a stage should also ban the Omega version of that stage and that stage only. Eg, you ban Lylat Cruise, your opponent takes you to an Omega of his choice, he can choose from any omega stage except for Lylat. This would likely only affect Lylat (and potentially Duck Hunt) and I see no downsides to it. This stops ledge jank in the case of Lylat and 2D jank in the case of Duck Hunt if those are the reasons you choose to ban the stage.

I don't think FD deserves a ban. The bright-light section barely lasts 2 seconds and when it happens, just block or dodge.

 

[Balgorxz]

It's possible to clone 1:1 smashville with the stage builder?
If its possible then we can make smashvilles with different background and music so the game isn't that repetitive, honeslty everytime I host locals 90% of the matches are on smashville/TaC

 

[Plain Yogurt]

But what if we just banned Smashville?

 

[webbedspace]

It's possible to clone 1:1 smashville with the stage builder?
If its possible then we can make smashvilles with different background and music so the game isn't that repetitive, honeslty everytime I host locals 90% of the matches are on smashville/TaC

It can't be exactly 1:1 because the Stage Builder platforms only move at a fixed speed with no acceleration, whereas the Smashville platform has easing when it reaches either end. But the specifics of the motion aren't really the point, rather that it moves at all, with that much coverage of the stage.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

But what if we just banned Smashville?

Then half the community would riot. Meanwhile I'd be munching popcorn in the corner.

I've said before that a tournament with Battlefield/FD/Smashville banned or, more radically, all returning stages banned would be an interesting experiment.

 

[webbedspace]

It's just a shame there's only one Animal Crossing stage.

 

[BBC7]

It's just a shame there's only one Animal Crossing stage.

There are two. Unless there's sarcasm that I'm missing here, then I'm an idiot in that case.

 

[webbedspace]

Interesting discovery: at 2:38:00 of this stream, Ness falls off Skyloft's platform, lands on the flat ground of the "Isle of the Goddess" transformation, and takes 12% impact damage because the ground wasn't fully scrolled onto the screen and was thus incorrectly regarded as "moving terrain". Smash developers, why do you do this to us.

(Let's keep some perspective, though: that Ness probably should have died there from the way he was moving - but you can't treat Skyloft's terrain like Delfino's, where you can leap onto the ground as soon as you think it's cleared the lower blast line.)

EDIT: Also at 4:23:20 - how the heck did that ROB end up with endless up-b flames shooting out of its rear?

 

[Protom]

Interesting discovery: at 2:38:00 of this stream, Ness falls off Skyloft's platform, lands on the flat ground of the "Isle of the Goddess" transformation, and takes 12% impact damage because the ground wasn't fully scrolled onto the screen and was thus incorrectly regarded as "moving terrain". Smash developers, why do you do this to us.

(Let's keep some perspective, though: that Ness probably should have died there from the way he was moving - but you can't treat Skyloft's terrain like Delfino's, where you can leap onto the ground as soon as you think it's cleared the lower blast line.)

EDIT: Also at 4:23:20 - how the heck did that ROB end up with endless up-b flames shooting out of its rear?

Ya I've had that happen to me on sky loft a few times now. I don't think it's worth banning a stage for. If anything, it makes up a bit for your opponent not dieing when they were supposed? Idk..

 

[LEGOfan12]

It's possible to clone 1:1 smashville with the stage builder?
If its possible then we can make smashvilles with different background and music so the game isn't that repetitive, honeslty everytime I host locals 90% of the matches are on smashville/TaC

I thought stage builder stages weren't allowed.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

Yeah that part of Skyloft is weird. I think just about every other landing spot lets you land before the tour platform gets there but that specific one will hit you until the platform stops.

Also is there just an unspoken rule that it's an awful idea to approach on that 4-pillar formation? That the second match I've seen where when they stopped there they just stared at each other. Although I suppose both times had Ness who definitely would love to stand still and shoot thunders. Is it match-up dependent?

 

[Piford]

Yeah that part of Skyloft is weird. I think just about every other landing spot lets you land before the tour platform gets there but that specific one will hit you until the platform stops.

Also is there just an unspoken rule that it's an awful idea to approach on that 4-pillar formation? That the second match I've seen where when they stopped there they just stared at each other. Although I suppose both times had Ness who definitely would love to stand still and shoot thunders. Is it match-up dependent?

Generally its pretty poor unless you really know what your doing. It also depends on which pillar you are on. The fact that they have grabbable ledges means that it's not completely unsafe to approach since if you do get hit, its easy to recover. If you can wall jump than its very easy to recover, so approaching is much safer. Also, waiting a bit so the platform can come back to save you is another way to help make approaching safer. Generally you should see more people willing to approach as they get more comfortable on the stage, but certain matchups or situations might make approaching a really bad option.

 

[webbedspace]

I thought stage builder stages weren't allowed.

It's thought that the promised patching-in of Miiverse stage sharing will allow wide distribution of stages to tournament setups in ways that weren't possible in Brawl. Personally I'm counting on it, even if all that ends up in tournament play is three flat'n'plat ports from Project M.

 

[LEGOfan12]

Interesting discovery: at 2:38:00 of this stream, Ness falls off Skyloft's platform, lands on the flat ground of the "Isle of the Goddess" transformation, and takes 12% impact damage because the ground wasn't fully scrolled onto the screen and was thus incorrectly regarded as "moving terrain". Smash developers, why do you do this to us.

(Let's keep some perspective, though: that Ness probably should have died there from the way he was moving - but you can't treat Skyloft's terrain like Delfino's, where you can leap onto the ground as soon as you think it's cleared the lower blast line.)

EDIT: Also at 4:23:20 - how the heck did that ROB end up with endless up-b flames shooting out of its rear?

That's happened to me before. Might be a glitch.

 

[smashmachine]

Then half the community would riot. Meanwhile I'd be munching popcorn in the corner.

I've said before that a tournament with Battlefield/FD/Smashville banned or, more radically, all returning stages banned would be an interesting experiment.

hope you enjoy Town and City being the new Smashville!

 

[ParanoidDrone]

hope you enjoy Town and City being the new Smashville!

At least it's mildly more interesting. Not by much, mind you, but it's something. Also given that Apex has it on counterpick instead of starter there's clearly some people out there who aren't completely on board with it.

But honestly if I wanted to go for maximum troll I'd also add a rule saying no stage may be played twice in the same set for any reason. Not even by Gentleman's.

 

[Balgorxz]

I'm still putting all of my hopes in stage builder, you can create perfect FD and BF variants with those.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm still putting all of my hopes in stage builder, you can create perfect FD and BF variants with those.

Worth noting that the FD silhouette is smaller than it should be. The proper size should be two blocks longer on each side.

 

[Pazx]

Stage list for a tourney I'm attending on Saturday:

Smashville
Battlefield
FD/Omega Palutena's
Town and City
Lylat

----

Duck Hunt
Halberd
Castle Siege
Skyloft
Kongo Jungle
Delfino

I think I'm happy. This is pretty much middle of the road, too. Conservatives would ban Skyloft/Siege/Kongo and liberals would add PS2/Wuhu/Norfair/Windy Hill, so I think this should be the absolute minimum we push for across the board.

Worth noting that the FD silhouette is smaller than it should be. The proper size should be two blocks longer on each side.

If we adopt using custom stages then we would arguably need at least 1 stage that's smaller than usual and one stage that's larger than normal.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

8 player smash just added a lot of stages, and they all seem to have substantial mechanical differences from their non-8 player forms:

Mario Circuit Brawl: No karts, seems like a decent 8-player stage if you don't mind walk-offs.
Luigi's Mansion: The mansion is indestructible! This is also a really good size for 8 player IMO.
Pyrosphere: No Ridley or other hazards! This is actually a *really* good 8 player stage, obvious starter in any 8 player tournament.
Norfair: No stage hazards on this one either, size is maybe 8 player functional but the lack of a main platform will make it very... unusual in that format.
Lylat Cruise: This stage is way too small for 8 player... The only difference is that the background seems fixed to the "deep space" section that presumably takes the least memory.
Pokemon Stadium 2: This stage is also probably a bit small. The screen never displays anything and the stage never transforms so it's a very basic stage.
Town & City: The stage actually seems identical to its standard mode of operation, doesn't seem to have any background NPC animal crossing creatures but I never paid those mind so I can't document this well. Again pretty small for 8 player.
Smashville: Much like Town & City, it seems to be without background animal crossing NPCs, is otherwise identical to its standard mode, and seems a bit small for 8 players.
Wii Fit Studio: The background doesn't have the mirror effect. The platforms still move and the silhouette of the Wii Fit Trainer still gives fitness advice sometimes. This seems like perhaps the best walk-off for 8 player of them all honestly; it's big but not huge and is pretty open.

So, in other words, we just got a lot of good 8 player stages. As a group they tend to be a bit small; I'm thinking the sizable Pyrosphere and Luigi's Mansion are the main gems though the two walk-offs are both worth consideration. Norfair is intriguing and warrants some testing; it's hard to imagine Lylat Cruise/PS2/Animal Crossing Stages being anything but chaos. I also expect some serious crying from some corners about the existence of no hazards Pyrosphere and no transformation Pokemon Stadium 2 that you can't pick for 1v1 fights.

So, what does this mean for 8 player smash stage lists?

 

[Pazx]

I stand by the fact that 3v3 is and will always be superior to 4v4, which also opens up a few more stages (SV, T&C) for competitive viability. What does this mean for 8 player stage lists? They shouldn't be taken seriously. What does this mean for singles stage lists is my question. No hazards Norfair? No transformations PS2? I'm happy to run a few (four? three?) characters off the stage if it means I get to play on those stages.

 

[guedes the brawler]

8 player smash just added a lot of stages, and they all seem to have substantial mechanical differences from their non-8 player forms:

Mario Circuit Brawl: No karts, seems like a decent 8-player stage if you don't mind walk-offs.
Luigi's Mansion: The mansion is indestructible! This is also a really good size for 8 player IMO.
Pyrosphere: No Ridley or other hazards! This is actually a *really* good 8 player stage, obvious starter in any 8 player tournament.
Norfair: No stage hazards on this one either, size is maybe 8 player functional but the lack of a main platform will make it very... unusual in that format.
Lylat Cruise: This stage is way too small for 8 player... The only difference is that the background seems fixed to the "deep space" section that presumably takes the least memory.
Pokemon Stadium 2: This stage is also probably a bit small. The screen never displays anything and the stage never transforms so it's a very basic stage.
Town & City: The stage actually seems identical to its standard mode of operation, doesn't seem to have any background NPC animal crossing creatures but I never paid those mind so I can't document this well. Again pretty small for 8 player.
Smashville: Much like Town & City, it seems to be without background animal crossing NPCs, is otherwise identical to its standard mode, and seems a bit small for 8 players.
Wii Fit Studio: The background doesn't have the mirror effect. The platforms still move and the silhouette of the Wii Fit Trainer still gives fitness advice sometimes. This seems like perhaps the best walk-off for 8 player of them all honestly; it's big but not huge and is pretty open.

So, in other words, we just got a lot of good 8 player stages. As a group they tend to be a bit small; I'm thinking the sizable Pyrosphere and Luigi's Mansion are the main gems though the two walk-offs are both worth consideration. Norfair is intriguing and warrants some testing; it's hard to imagine Lylat Cruise/PS2/Animal Crossing Stages being anything but chaos. I also expect some serious crying from some corners about the existence of no hazards Pyrosphere and no transformation Pokemon Stadium 2 that you can't pick for 1v1 fights.

So, what does this mean for 8 player smash stage lists?

i have no idea, but isn't it viable to have pyrosphere and luigi's in 1vs1/2vs2 now?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I think I'm happy. This is pretty much middle of the road, too. Conservatives would ban Skyloft/Siege/Kongo and non-morons would add PS2/Wuhu

fix'd

Seriously PS2 is even more fair and balanced than it was in Brawl, and there's literally nothing wrong with Wuhu - it's delfino 2.0. That said:

Norfair/Windy Hill, so I think this should be the absolute minimum we push for across the board.

Is anyone clamoring for those? I was under the impression that Windy Hill was considered way too big for 1v1 play, and that Norfair wasn't even worth considering due to the hazards... Although, all things considered, I would like to consider it. That and PTAD.

 

[Pazx]

PTAD is bad because it has no grabbable ledges and the cars are ridiculous (kill early, sometimes invisible apparently, other glitches). Norfair is a good stage in this game, the reason it was banned in Brawl was because of ledge stalling and with the changes to ledge mechanics in Sm4sh this in a non-issue. The hazards are ridiculously easy to avoid in most cases. Personally, I don't like Windy Hill, but I'm not a stage liberal. PS2 all the way, though.

The "really dodgy but probably viable stages" are Norfair, Windy Hill, Wii Fit maybe, Luigi's Mansion, the new Mario Circuit. I don't really like any aside from Norfair (assuming Wuhu/PS2 are legal).

 

[webbedspace]

i have no idea, but isn't it viable to have pyrosphere and luigi's in 1vs1/2vs2 now?

*imagines the sound of 4 Jigglypuffs shieldbreak-SDing at once*

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PTAD is bad because it has no grabbable ledges and the cars are ridiculous (kill early, sometimes invisible apparently, other glitches). Norfair is a good stage in this game, the reason it was banned in Brawl was because of ledge stalling and with the changes to ledge mechanics in Sm4sh this in a non-issue. The hazards are ridiculously easy to avoid in most cases. Personally, I don't like Windy Hill, but I'm not a stage liberal. PS2 all the way, though.

The "really dodgy but probably viable stages" are Norfair, Windy Hill, Wii Fit maybe, Luigi's Mansion, the new Mario Circuit. I don't really like any aside from Norfair (assuming Wuhu/PS2 are legal).

It has no grabbable ledges, but for much of it, it has a floor you can bounce off of. Even in Brawl, where many characters relied on tethers, it really wasn't that bad for them. I've never heard of invisible cars, but yeah, there is that one segment where they come from the right where you really don't have much time to react... Having that legal is more a fever dream than anything else. That's why Mario Kart 8 needs in. That stage is like PTAD in awesome.

Did they change the Norfair hazards? Because otherwise you can still run into situations where almost all of the stage is covered in hitboxes...

Windy Hill is just too damn big. Due to its size and architecture (windmill on the side, slope) it's just too easy to run. Wii Fit has permanent walkoffs on both sides; this is still a big no-no. Everything that made Luigi's untenable in Brawl is still present, unfortunately. MK8 doesn't even belong in the same list as those other stages. Seriously.

And PS2 is such a no-brainer that it shocks me that people are still getting it wrong. Like, c'mon guys, we went over this in Brawl already, don't make us do this **** again.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Windy Hill is just too damn big. Due to its size and architecture (windmill on the side, slope) it's just too easy to run.

How about 2v2s?

Wii Fit has permanent walkoffs on both sides; this is still a big no-no.

Agreed.

Everything that made Luigi's untenable in Brawl is still present, unfortunately.

You make it sound like there's more than one thing when we all know that the only problem is the darn caves of life.

And PS2 is such a no-brainer that it shocks me that people are still getting it wrong. Like, c'mon guys, we went over this in Brawl already, don't make us do this **** again.

Unfortunately for you, this is the Internet, so people would do this **** again anyway.

 

[guedes the brawler]

*imagines the sound of 4 Jigglypuffs shieldbreak-SDing at once*

you only need 3 as they seem to be 5-player smash stages too

 

[Piford]

While I haven't tested myself, I'd think Pyrosphere would only need 2 people to remove Ridley as Gaur Plains removes Metal Face with only 2 people.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sorry to be Mr. Pessimist, but if players have to join to kill themselves off in a real life tournament, most TOs are going to say it's a logistical issue and turn you down and I wouldn't even blame them. More stages for 4v4 is cool and all, but watching folks kill themselves off on stream with a 9 minute timer or anything else is gonna be too big a turnoff.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Yeah, I'm with Capps. That's a lot of extra work to make a couple of stages viable, and kind of a hype-killer. It's already kinda dumb in wifi tournaments with the countdown jigglypuff.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah, I'm with Capps. That's a lot of extra work to make a couple of stages viable, and kind of a hype-killer. It's already kinda dumb in wifi tournaments with the countdown jigglypuff.

But at least watching Jigglypuff kill herself via shield break is amusing. And I still think it's a really clever way of counting down.

Stupid question incoming: How do I download the patch? I just went into 8P Smash with me and 4 CPUs and Luigi's Mansion etc. weren't available for choosing.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

But at least watching Jigglypuff kill herself via shield break is amusing. And I still think it's a really clever way of counting down.

Stupid question incoming: How do I download the patch? I just went into 8P Smash with me and 4 CPUs and Luigi's Mansion etc. weren't available for choosing.

Weird. It should appear the instant you select the game in the Wii U Menu.

Try it a few times, it may eventually work.

 

[Starcutter]

Now that a few stages have that thing where they can be legal, I want to bring up something about pkmn stadium 2, with the stage transformations still on.

I'm not sure if this is the same as brawl, but I went and found something interesting.

The neutral stage in Stadium 2 lasts a whole minute, while the transformations are only 30 seconds long.

Here's a big difference from brawl:
The ice transformation doesn't allow tripping, while in brawl it made characters MUCH more likely to trip.

Also, in my opinion, the new ledge mechanics make the electric portion of the stage a little bit more bearable.

The wind transformation is still weird, though. good thing it only lasts for 30 seconds.


I still want this stage at least counterpick.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

PS2 was a no-brainer starter/counterpick in Brawl. Now it's only gotten more "starter-y". Even a complete idiot should be able to see that this stage should be legal. Even someone who knows next to nothing about the game, and isn't about to host the largest smash tournament in history.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I just don't see how it isn't legal outside of post-Brawl bias. The Apex list has stages that can outright kill you if you don't pay attention (and it would not shock me in the least if said stages were banned down the line), but a stage that changes the physics a little is overkill?

 

[Piford]

So can we assume the Wuhu Island glitch is patched out? Not that anyone was able to recreate it before, but I have been unsuccessful in creating it post patch.

 

[Protom]

How about doubles? You'd only need 1 person for the kill themselves part.
Btw, me and 4 others (plus 2 vpus amd 1 amiibo) Tested out all of the new 8 player stages. Smashville and Lylat feel way to small. Pyrosphere is PERFECT. Norfair is great, though should b a counter pick, not a starter.
Town and City works due to being a bit bigger than SV and having more platforms which are higher than SVs.
PS2 I dunno. It felt great playing on, but at times when everyone was on the same half of the stage it was a grand mess. Possible counterpick? Needs some test matches. Weegees was fine. Cave of life still there, but didnt matter when there was 8 people, often most of which would stick to the top floors anyways.
Wii fit was fine, so was mario circuit. If walkoffs are ok, they're shoe ins.
Only omega we tried was GCO cause its soo pretty.
(Oh, and just when u thought lylats edges just cant get anymore annoying, play 8 player. Its such a mess on that stage there..)