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Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

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smashbro29

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Thoughts on my tournament's stage list? Anything that shouldn't be? Anything missing?

Neutral:

Battlefield

Final Destination & Identical Ʊ

Smashville

Ʊ identical to FD:

Battlefield / Big Battlefield

Final Destination

Pokemon Stadium 2

Flat Zone X

Palutena's Temple

Skyworld

Gaur Plain


Ʊ rule: If you want to choose one that is not identical you must run it by your opponent and they reserve the right to deny you.



Counter Picks:

Wuhu Island

Duck Hunt

Town & City

Delfino Plaza

Kongo 64

Orbital Gate Assault

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Pokemon Stadium 2
 
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Piford

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Thoughts on my tournament's stage list? Anything that shouldn't be? Anything missing?

Neutral:

Battlefield

Final Destination & Identical Ʊ

Smashville

Ʊ identical to FD:

Battlefield / Big Battlefield

Final Destination

Pokemon Stadium 2

Flat Zone X

Palutena's Temple

Skyworld

Gaur Plain


Ʊ rule: If you want to choose one that is not identical you must run it by your opponent and they reserve the right to deny you.



Counter Picks:

Wuhu Island

Duck Hunt

Town & City

Delfino Plaza

Kongo 64

Orbital Gate Assault

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Pokemon Stadium 2
There is no stage identical to FD outside FD.

Also Orbital Gate Assault before Skyloft?
 

Cenizas

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I only question Flat Zone X, Palutena's Temple, the lack of Skyloft, and the separation of omegas. I'd be pleased if you could explain these choices. Otherwise, seems like you did a good job. You have PS2 listed as a starter and counter, BTW.
 

LiteralGrill

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Yo @ LiteralGrill LiteralGrill why'd you ban Wuhu Island and Pokémon Stadium 2?
WOW STALKER MUCH!?!?!

For for serious I was about to post Hypest's Newest Ruleset so I spose this is as good a time as any to discuss. Remember this is decided by all of us in Hypest, not just me. For those who don't wanna click:

Starters:

Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt
Final Destination
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town and City

Counterpicks:
Castle Siege
Skyloft

So this is probably a tad weird to most, so let's explain how this came to be. We've been wanting to change to FLSS. However, a lot of our players already had real issues with Wuhu Island and Pokemon Stadium 2, let alone people being reluctant to switch to full 13 stage FLSS. We wanted more starters and to at least try to get close to what FLSS offered, but with only around 11 stages left it was either cut stages down to nine (and remove perfectly good stages with almost no controversy) or have 9 starters with 2 counterpicks so we took the latter route.

The two counterpicks are the least popular stages out of the bunch to try and soften the blow of switching from 5 starters to 9, and hopefully this compromise will help get people to slowly accept the idea of FLSS a bit more. It's not exactly what I myself 100% would choose but I'm still very happy about it as a compromise between two mindsets. Hopefully this opens people up to more stages and turns out to be accepted.
 

Piford

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WOW STALKER MUCH!?!?!

For for serious I was about to post Hypest's Newest Ruleset so I spose this is as good a time as any to discuss. Remember this is decided by all of us in Hypest, not just me. For those who don't wanna click:
Starters:
Battlefield
Delfino Plaza
Duck Hunt
Final Destination
Halberd
Kongo Jungle 64
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town and City

Counterpicks:
Castle Siege
Skyloft

So this is probably a tad weird to most, so let's explain how this came to be. We've been wanting to change to FLSS. However, a lot of our players already had real issues with Wuhu Island and Pokemon Stadium 2, let alone people being reluctant to switch to full 13 stage FLSS. We wanted more starters and to at least try to get close to what FLSS offered, but with only around 11 stages left it was either cut stages down to nine (and remove perfectly good stages with almost no controversy) or have 9 starters with 2 counterpicks so we took the latter route.

The two counterpicks are the least popular stages out of the bunch to try and soften the blow of switching from 5 starters to 9, and hopefully this compromise will help get people to slowly accept the idea of FLSS a bit more. It's not exactly what I myself 100% would choose but I'm still very happy about it as a compromise between two mindsets. Hopefully this opens people up to more stages and turns out to be accepted.
I saw the Europe Tournament and checked if you swapped to FLSS. Castle Siege probably deserves to be a starter over most stages on that list. I think that having Castle Siege played on in Grand Finals helped the stage out a lot. But losing Wuhu Island on your stage list hurt a lot since Anther's Ladder also just banned it and KJ64 (and added back Castle Siege and Halberd). I think maybe just dropping PS2 would've been fine since people could use their strike on Wuhu if they really like it. I feel like the biggest issue with loosing Wuhu and PS2 is not people are just gonna move onto the next stage to complain about until the stage list is FD, BF, and Smashville only.
 

19_

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Thoughts on my tournament's stage list? Anything that shouldn't be? Anything missing?

Neutral:

Battlefield

Final Destination & Identical Ʊ

Smashville

Ʊ identical to FD:

Battlefield / Big Battlefield

Final Destination

Pokemon Stadium 2

Flat Zone X

Palutena's Temple

Skyworld

Gaur Plain


Ʊ rule: If you want to choose one that is not identical you must run it by your opponent and they reserve the right to deny you.



Counter Picks:

Wuhu Island

Duck Hunt

Town & City

Delfino Plaza

Kongo 64

Orbital Gate Assault

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Pokemon Stadium 2
There are differences between all of the omega's although slight. I know I have been :4greninja:'d already but there is a thread on said topic here.

The omega rule is a REALLY good idea, but I personally I just would legalize Palutena's omega as a starter while soft banning the other omegas. It is pretty easy to just gentleman omegas anyhow, just like your rule states. I honestly wouldn't worry to much about omegas this early in the game though, so feel free to mess around with them. :upsidedown:

I kinda like having Town & city and lylat as starters. From what I understand T&C only suffers due to FLSS as lylat can be argued as counter due move canceling. Honestly up to you.

I agree with Pitford that Skyloft is much better than orbital gate and should be switched around. Skyloft is just travel stage with a few odd passing hazards but that is it. Orbital gate is scripted but hazards and the platform layouts (especially the airwing phase after the second missile) are way to much to point I actually feel that I'm kinda fighting the stage.

It's ultimately your ruleset so none of us can stop you, we can only throw our opinions at you. :mad088:
 

smashbro29

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There are differences between all of the omega's although slight. I know I have been :4greninja:'d already but there is a thread on said topic here.

The omega rule is a REALLY good idea, but I personally I just would legalize Palutena's omega as a starter while soft banning the other omegas. It is pretty easy to just gentleman omegas anyhow, just like your rule states. I honestly wouldn't worry to much about omegas this early in the game though, so feel free to mess around with them. :upsidedown:

I kinda like having Town & city and lylat as starters. From what I understand T&C only suffers due to FLSS as lylat can be argued as counter due move canceling. Honestly up to you.

I agree with Pitford that Skyloft is much better than orbital gate and should be switched around. Skyloft is just travel stage with a few odd passing hazards but that is it. Orbital gate is scripted but hazards and the platform layouts (especially the airwing phase after the second missile) are way to much to point I actually feel that I'm kinda fighting the stage.

It's ultimately your ruleset so none of us can stop you, we can only throw our opinions at you. :mad088:
That topic got updated, I did not see that. Thank you. Gonna have to re adjust.

3 starters is faster and honestly as soon as something happens on a stage I really struggle to call it starter. The tilt on Lylat really screws some characters recovering.

I wanted Skyloft but it's usually way too big, in experimental tournaments I've run people died or got saved by scenery that whizzes by very quickly as the main platform heads to random locations, it's nearly impossible to see coming, not to mention all the transformations last forever and are all bad. There are no good transformations.

Orbital Gate seems tricky but spend 15 minutes getting the pattern down and you'll have no issues with it ever again f you have ever played a video game before. The platform layouts and places you need to be to transition smoothly actually promote offensive play. I definitely understand why people don't like it but as a TO I don't give a damn who likes what. I LIKE Pilotwings but the small platforms at the bottom make certain match ups downright unplayable. Make the rules fair and play to win.

Oh definitely, I want criticism.
 

ParanoidDrone

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If you or others want a resource to study some of the stages and their mechanics, kyokoro_pamuyo made a compilation thread here of a bunch of research topics. Most made by yours truly. I think I've covered literally every likely-to-be-legal Wii U stage except for FD/Omega which I'm saving for last.
 

webbedspace

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I wanted Skyloft but it's usually way too big, in experimental tournaments I've run people died or got saved by scenery that whizzes by very quickly as the main platform heads to random locations, it's nearly impossible to see coming, not to mention all the transformations last forever and are all bad. There are no good transformations.
You mean this Skyloft? The transformations "last forever"? They're 3 seconds shorter than Delfino's. And how are this, this, this, this or this bad transformations?
 

Amazing Ampharos

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3 starters is fundamentally unfair, among other problems. Let me put is this way: who strikes first? With only three starters, it's obvious going first is a substantial disadvantage other than the fact that in effect you're guaranteeing game 1 on Smashville 99% of the time.

The idea that some stages are somehow "more legal" than other legal stages is pretty dubious from the start; if a stage is good enough for game 2, why not for game one? It certainly seems more desirable than 3 starters which necessarily is either effectively 1 starter (calcifying the advantages/disadvantages of that one stage as the heart of the metagame) or an introduction of very substantial procedural unfairness. The more I think about it, the more I realize that 3 is actually the single worst odd number possible for starter count; even 1 starter is better than 3 since at least 1 doesn't introduce massive procedural unfairness to sets (and I hope why 1 is a bad idea is obvious to most people).

EDIT: About Skyloft and its transformations, my experience is that only 4/11 of them actually often lead to stall-outs. These are the Knight Academy, the Windmill, the Small Island, and the Waterfall Island (names referencing the stage research thread). Even then they don't lead to stall-outs every time; the Knight Academy tends to only have a break in the fighting if the two players work their way to opposite sides which usually takes up about half of the 15 seconds or so it is stopped. The Windmill section mostly plays slowly due to "game is new" fear, but much like the pillars on Delfino, I see more and more aggression on this form as people get comfortable with it. The Small Island is a hard loop and enables infinite run-away trivially, but if the character with the greater mobility is losing, it has actual fighting and running away on it usually gives you a slight positional disadvantage when the stage transforms so if the match is close it's likely not worth it. The Waterfall Island is like the Windmill in that it's really scary to approach on it but you can pin your opponent in some nasty positions if you are willing to do so; I see more and more aggression on this one the more familiar people get with it. The other 7 transformations just don't naturally lend themselves to stall-outs at any level; Skyloft has very high average transformation quality.
 
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DanGR

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@ Amazing Ampharos Amazing Ampharos

"Unfair." "More legal." "Desirable."

Widespread use of these terms is why I tend to shy away from discussing stage lists. It's just a clash of stage list ideologies- conservative vs liberal- neither of which is going to budge. However, I saw your thread on "stage policy and starter stages," and I want to interject on behalf of the conservative side of the community, which seems to be underrepresented in these kinds of discussions.


I see where you're coming from if you value liberal stage lists. No stage is "more legal" than another if you value dynamic stage interactions, so it makes sense to strike from all of them.

However, from a conservative point of view increasing the stage striking list just allows the advantaged player the option between 2 potentially more varied (bad) and more dissimilar (also bad) stages choices with more dynamic stage movement and hazards. On the other hand, when you strike from the 3 most static stages, the advantaged player gets to choose from 2 less varied (good) and more similar (also good) stages.

Let me put it this way. From a liberal stage list advocate's point of view, the trade-off in striking from 13 stages is this: You don't arbitrarily choose the stage list for game 1, but you give more of an advantage to the player striking from the last 2 stages because they get to choose between two more distinctively strategical stages. On the other hand, if you arbitrarily choose to strike from the 3 most static stages, then the 2 leftover stage options are less variably different and so the advantage is minimized.

Another consideration that I'm much less adamant about and am interested in exploring, is that liberal stage lists (especially 13 starter stage lists) seem to trivialize/simplify the character counter-pick system by polarizing character usage towards more mobile, versatile characters that can deal with everything more dynamic stages throw at them. For example, if your opponent chooses to strike the 6 most static stages after you've chosen a relatively immobile character such as Little Mac or Ganon, at best you're going to Delfino or Castle Siege. In other words, I think matchups in game 1 may be less even across the board, as a result, even if only slightly on average. Note that I'm no Little Mac/Ganon expert. I'm only presuming those aren't valued stages for them and other relatively immobile characters based on my experiences.



Side note: I dislike the community's definition of "conservative" and "liberal." To me, "conservative" in competitive SSB's context intuitively means "conserving as much of the original game as possible while maintaining its competitive integrity" i.e. wuhu, halberd, etc. legal.
 
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Thoughts on my tournament's stage list? Anything that shouldn't be? Anything missing?

Neutral:

Battlefield

Final Destination & Identical Ʊ

Smashville
3 starters provides a distinct advantage to certain character archetypes. I seriously recommend including a few more starters, pushing the list up to 5 or 7. It's really not a huge time difference.With regards to starters, take a look at this thread. It really doesn't make all that much sense to split the stages like this. I mean, why would you? What makes FD/SV/BF "special" for competitive play? And why strike at all between them if the purpose of the first match isn't to find even ground?






Counter Picks:
Wuhu Island

Duck Hunt

Town & City

Delfino Plaza

Kongo 64

Orbital Gate Assault

Halberd

Lylat Cruise

Castle Siege

Pokemon Stadium 2
I feel like this is missing Skyloft. I love the large variety, and I love that you're willing to give OGA a try (although I personally feel that it's a lot closer to Poke Floats than Rainbow Cruise in terms of how well you can fight on it). Have you considered Mario Circuit WiiU? I think that stage is way better than most people give it credit for.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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I believe Ganon likes Delfino Plaza (Ganon likes water with his dair, likes platforms with his uair, likes stages that can help his recovery, and likes stages that transform since it can let him create choke point situations from time to time; Delfino might be one of Ganon's best stages really), and while it's not a great Little Mac stage on account of being "not Final Destination" (Mac is such a horrible character), it's probably better for him than Smashville since there's no single stable platform you can camp indefinitely against him and thus there will be times you have to directly confront him whereas on many other stages including SV/BF really it's easy to run from him forever. Is it actually true that more mobile characters in general prefer the transforming stages? Like I understand the thought, but I'm just not convinced the game itself actually plays out that way. My consistent experiences are that character diversity is enhanced, not decreased, by more stages; the argument that it isn't seems to assume that in general there are more viable characters on static stages than dynamic ones and thus limiting us to static stages maximizes character diversity which is a proposition I haven't seen any evidence to support (and one that certainly contradicts my experiences). 13 stage striking is even better than static vs dynamic since you get the median stage in a match-up regardless of its characteristics, and that stage might be static or dynamic depending on the match-up. From local experience, no one ever says that the final stage they ended up on is a bad stage they don't want to play on; the end result tends to match the player preferences very strongly.

You refer to the advantaged player a lot. In 3 stage striking it's clear there's a hugely advantaged player. In 13 there isn't. You go in 1-2-2-2-2-2-1 order, and it's symmetric whether you go first or second. Sure having the final strike lets you make the final decision, but that's pretty equal in value to being the most recent person to get to strike two stages which is why it fits into the concept of balanced striking. That's why I say 3 stage striking is unfair. I don't mean unfair as in it affects the character balance or whatever; that's not really a fairness issue. A fairness issue is that one player, independent of any decisions he makes, is mechanically disadvantaged to the other player. 3 stage striking inevitably does that to the player who strikes first while striking from any number of stages that is 4X+1 does not. I consider fairness issues far more core to good rulesets than balance and diversity issues. 5 starters is a diversity/dynamic interaction limiting decision. 3 is just unfair, and it has nothing to do with the particular stages (totally irrelevant) and more to do with the fact that it's just procedurally unfair. This is only mitigated by the fact that 99% of the time you just play on Smashville anyway... which is a pretty lousy mitigation really since any match-up imbalances intrinsic to Smashville are just enshrined into the game with that system.

My problem with the conservative side of the community really is not budging. Honestly 13 starters and that being the full pool of legal stages is a huge compromise; it's not the liberal position. I like all of the following stages and, all else being equal, would enjoy them being legal:

Mushroom Kingdom U
Mario Circuit
Luigi's Mansion
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Woolly World
Orbital Gate Assault
Kalos Pokemon League

I don't think the game is fundamentally unfair or unplayable on any of those stages. Honestly a lot of other stages like Garden of Hope, Big Battlefield, Wily Castle, and "every walk-off" are just obnoxious but are perfectly playable too and would be supported by any true believer stage liberals. I'm talking stage lists of around 30 legal stages here. I don't push for those stages because I know they're unpalatable to a lot of the community, and I want stage rules that make everyone happy. If I were just trying to represent stage liberals I'd push for them all. A lot of the conservative crowd seems to me to be quite opposed to compromise. They aren't represented much in these debates since they don't believe that engaging in them is productive toward them accomplishing their goal (getting everything they want with zero compromise), and they're probably right about that to be honest. My goal with the 13 stage proposal was to have a stage list wherein everyone gets the things most important to them in the rules while giving up some of their secondary priorities; it requires conservative players to accept actual variety in exchange for liberal players accepting not having any of the truly most different and dynamic stages legal. I just don't see the reason in having a ruleset that makes the conservative players very happy and the liberal players very unhappy when you could have one that has both camps mostly happy.

And... that's pretty much my position on all of that. To be clear, I don't have a problem with conservative players or their ideologies (opposite my own but not invalid); I just think they as a group need to be a bit more flexible in their position so we can not have the situation of one group of winners and another group of losers in this process...
 

smashbro29

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You mean this Skyloft? The transformations "last forever"? They're 3 seconds shorter than Delfino's. And how are this, this, this, this or this bad transformations?
The last 3 are enormous walk-offs. The first 2 seem great but they're kind of rare or they just didn't show up for the tournament.

Granted, transformations are a side point, what actually killed the stage on my list is the fact that you get hit by things if you're off the main platform and it's very hard to pay attention to it as it is randomly taking you places to the point where it seems random.
3 starters provides a distinct advantage to certain character archetypes. I seriously recommend including a few more starters, pushing the list up to 5 or 7. It's really not a huge time difference.With regards to starters, take a look at this thread. It really doesn't make all that much sense to split the stages like this. I mean, why would you? What makes FD/SV/BF "special" for competitive play? And why strike at all between them if the purpose of the first match isn't to find even ground?
None of them are starter material except T&C but then I don't have a 5th that's honestly a neutral.
I feel like this is missing Skyloft. I love the large variety, and I love that you're willing to give OGA a try (although I personally feel that it's a lot closer to Poke Floats than Rainbow Cruise in terms of how well you can fight on it). Have you considered Mario Circuit WiiU? I think that stage is way better than most people give it credit for.
It's based on real tournament testing, Skyloft did not test well because of random death/saves, OGA did because nothing is random.
 

19_

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The last 3 are enormous walk-offs. The first 2 seem great but they're kind of rare or they just didn't show up for the tournament.

Granted, transformations are a side point, what actually killed the stage on my list is the fact that you get hit by things if you're off the main platform and it's very hard to pay attention to it as it is randomly taking you places to the point where it seems random.

None of them are starter material except T&C but then I don't have a 5th that's honestly a neutral.


It's based on real tournament testing, Skyloft did not test well because of random death/saves, OGA did because nothing is random.
I honestly think that random hit on skyloft is not actually random it's just really hard to find out where it happens. That being said I'm sure it will be patched out in the future.
Miiverse?

Also, could we count Lylat Cruise as a starter this time around?
Moves can end up being canceled due to the tilting of the ship. Another unfortunate glitch. :ohwell:
 

smashbro29

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That's what I thought, but while we wait for Miiverse, I think that's our only option for a starter.

Also, Miiverse might end up being a Battlefield clone
We'll run with 3, I got no complaints about that and it seems fine to me.

I honestly think that random hit on skyloft is not actually random it's just really hard to find out where it happens. That being said I'm sure it will be patched out in the future.


Moves can end up being canceled due to the tilting of the ship. Another unfortunate glitch. :ohwell:
Even if you could pinpoint the moment you'd pass it by it's like a nano second of time for each piece of scenery. You can't really plan around it, it may as well be random.
 

LiteralGrill

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Nothing happens that could get in the way, it's not too big.

Look at what I consider a neutral, should be pretty obvious.
neutral

neutral

neutral

GAH! NO STAGE IS NEUTRAL IN THIS GAME. EACH STAGE EFFECTS EVERY SINGLE MATCHUP. DO. NOT. CALL. STARTER. STAGES. "NEUTRALS".

ehem!!!

Mini rant there but this is the issue in what both you and @ The Stoopid Unikorn The Stoopid Unikorn are suggesting. The best stage to start on is the one that make the matchup as close to its actual number as possible. When you force people to only a small number of stages with those arbitrary reasons trying to claim "it's neutral" it's simply not. You are forcing

I wish SO much we could go back in time and whoever decided to call them "neutral" when they started in Melee could be put 6 feet under so this discussion wouldn't need to happen over and over.

Had to jump on on this too while I'm here:

Another consideration that I'm much less adamant about and am interested in exploring, is that liberal stage lists (especially 13 starter stage lists) seem to trivialize/simplify the character counter-pick system by polarizing character usage towards more mobile, versatile characters that can deal with everything more dynamic stages throw at them.
Another consideration that I'm much less adamant about and am interested in exploring, is that conservative stage lists (especially 3 starter stage lists) seem to trivialize/simplify the character counter-pick system by polarizing character usage towards less adaptable characters that can't deal with everything more dynamic stages throw at them.

That cool little word play aside, allowing the game to be played closer to its native state instead of arbitrarily choosing game balance is the more logical option.We aren't trying to move the balance around at all, we want the balance as close to what it was as when we opened the disk while still allowing competition. If anyone is altering the balance, it's the other guys.

I see where you're coming from if you value liberal stage lists. No stage is "more legal" than another if you value dynamic stage interactions, so it makes sense to strike from all of them.

Let me put it this way. From a liberal stage list advocate's point of view, the trade-off in striking from 13 stages is this: You don't arbitrarily choose the stage list for game 1, but you give more of an advantage to the player striking from the last 2 stages because they get to choose between two more distinctively strategical stages. On the other hand, if you arbitrarily choose to strike from the 3 most static stages, then the 2 leftover stage options are less variably different and so the advantage is minimized.
This isn't really the case at as all explained above. We want the stage that is the best for both players and characters in every single matchups to be available for choosing in game one. We'd also like the person who strikes second to not have an advantage as well don't get me wrong but that's not the primary reason.
 
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Amazing Ampharos

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In terms of real tournament testing, Skyloft has played out very well here. The Skyloft advocacy is based on experience. Walk-offs on transformers don't have problematic gameplay implications, and that's a key. You can watch the background for the (very rare) hit that also isn't generally fatal, way less big of a deal than support ghosts from our old friend Yoshi's Island Brawl...
 

madworlder

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Nothing happens that could get in the way, it's not too big.

Look at what I consider a neutral, should be pretty obvious.
When does a stage "get in the way?" If I spike someone from high up and they hit Smashville's moving platform, is it getting in the way, or should I have taken that possibility into account? How big is "too big", and more importantly, why is that an issue? It's harder to kill on Kongo Jungle 64 than it is on Windy Hill Zone. Is Kongo Jungle 64 too big? Is Windy Hill Zone?
 
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Nothing happens that could get in the way, it's not too big.

Look at what I consider a neutral, should be pretty obvious.
  • one main platform (like FD)
  • between zero and three thin platforms in locations that don't give much of an advantage
  • no walk-offs
  • blastzones at a decent distance
  • stage doesn't move.
Yeah, okay, so why does that make it a good starter? How does this make the stage more viable than other stages that we've deemed competitive? Why consider these stages "special"? Is it because they're more competitive? If so, why even play the other ones to begin with? Why not stick to just these few stages?
 

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Yeah, okay, so why does that make it a good starter? How does this make the stage more viable than other stages that we've deemed competitive? Why consider these stages "special"? Is it because they're more competitive? If so, why even play the other ones to begin with? Why not stick to just these few stages?
Becuase they don't have any major gimmick, making the first game of a set as fair as possible. Imagine if whoever gets to stage strike last could choose Pokemon Stadium 2.....
 

Omegaphoenix

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Becuase they don't have any major gimmick, making the first game of a set as fair as possible. Imagine if whoever gets to stage strike last could choose Pokemon Stadium 2.....
PS2 is top tier stage. Besides if you honestly don't want to go to PS2, but somehow end up striking there, then you clearly screwed up somewhere.

Fair is subjective. What's fair between characters depends on the characters and their players in question. It won't always be the flat + plat static stages you're talking about
 

Piford

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Becuase they don't have any major gimmick, making the first game of a set as fair as possible. Imagine if whoever gets to stage strike last could choose Pokemon Stadium 2.....
If FLSS leads you to Pokémon Stadium 2 round 1 than it was the most fair. You deemed that 6 other stages were worth banning before it, and if you didn't want to play on it then you shoulda banned it.
 

smashbro29

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In terms of real tournament testing, Skyloft has played out very well here. The Skyloft advocacy is based on experience. Walk-offs on transformers don't have problematic gameplay implications, and that's a key. You can watch the background for the (very rare) hit that also isn't generally fatal, way less big of a deal than support ghosts from our old friend Yoshi's Island Brawl...
Look, I love it, I want to save as many stages as I can but that has happened too many times, players are noticing and frankly I can't disagree. On-stream alone it changed several matches much to the surprise of viewers and players alike.


Neutral PTSD
Look man, I get it. I understand but the game isn't neutral. Nothing is really neutral but this is the closest thing to it.

Yeah, okay, so why does that make it a good starter? How does this make the stage more viable than other stages that we've deemed competitive? Why consider these stages "special"? Is it because they're more competitive? If so, why even play the other ones to begin with? Why not stick to just these few stages?
Because it's literally a level playing field. FD is literally a slab of land, BF is a slab of land with smaller platforms, SV is a slab of land with a very slow moving platform.

Lylat Cruise is like BF (when put simply) but it tilts which can really screw someone with a bad recovery.
 
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madworlder

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A bit of devil's advocate-
because those stages are static, they will confer certain advantages for an entire game to one character/player. Couldn't it be argued that Wuhu, Skyloft, and Delfino are the most fair stages in the game since they provide a wide array of advantageous and disadvantageous situations for a character/player throughout the match?

Your definition of "fair" seems to be pretty close to "regular", which isn't totally unreasonable, but a "fair" stage should probably be whatever makes a matchup closest to 5-5 between any two characters. This is not achievable by a list of only three stages, let's look at a fictional example:

Diddy vs. Little Mac
8-2 Diddy's favor on Smashville
7-3 Diddy's favor on Battlefield
5-5 even on Final Destination

The Diddy player will obviously strike Final Destination, and it doesn't matter what Little Mac strikes because he's screwed either way. If we toss ten more stages in the mix, Mac still probably won't get a 5-5, but maybe he'll end up with a 4-6, which is a lot closer to "fair" than picking from three stages.

again, these matchup numbers are NOT based in reality, just an example.
 
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Becuase they don't have any major gimmick, making the first game of a set as fair as possible. Imagine if whoever gets to stage strike last could choose Pokemon Stadium 2.....
"Major gimmick"? Okay, first of all, what does that even mean? Does Omega mode count as a gimmick? It's the only stage in the game with no platforms. It makes it so much harder to approach certain characters. It makes it way harder to deal with Little Mac. Why doesn't that count as a gimmick? What do you mean by "gimmick", anyways? And can you really still call it a "gimmick" when it applies to all but 3 stages in the game? That's not a gimmick, that's a given.

What's more, most "gimmicks" are either matchup-dependent (such as a pass-through floor), in which case they will be struck if one party considers them worth getting rid of; or knowledge-dependent (such as knowing not to carelessly approach a Robin who is walkoff camping on Delfino - for all intents and purposes, Dabuz SD'd against Nairo in that set) in which case it's absolutely reasonable to give a player an advantage for knowing more about the game and understanding it better. To take your example, Pokemon Stadium 2, every element of that stage can be plotted out and worked around. It's liable to provide an advantage in certain matchups, but those matchups can strike it. Just like people can strike FD against Little Mac or Toon Link. And furthermore, none of the "gimmicks" are gamebreaking or would lead to the worse player winning. You can learn to deal with the conveyer belts. You can learn how your character works in response to lowered gravity. You can learn what tricks you can abuse on ice. It's all about knowledge. That's not a gimmick, that's a feature!

You apparently don't see a problem with PS2 in game 2 or 3... Why? Are those games somehow less important? Personally, I think PS2 is perfectly legitimate regardless of which game it is in the set. But if it really is a gimmick which hampers competitive play, why allow it for games 2 and 3?

Look man, I get it. I understand but the game isn't neutral. Nothing is really neutral but this is the closest thing to it.
Actually, in Brawl, FD was one of the most-banned stages. This seems to imply that not only is it not neutral, but that it doesn't even come close. What's more, SV was the go-to counterpick once FD was banned, which would imply that it, also, was not only not neutral, but didn't come close. Because each stage is different, and each stage favors different attributes. A character with an amazing ground game loves FD, because the only times he has to take to the air are when his opponent forces him up there. By comparison, on BF, he might have to hunt them down on some platforms. A character with a lousy ground game is gonna love, say, OGA*.



*On a side note this is a shockingly good Little Mac stage. No, seriously. Small blastzones a lot of the times, spots with very few places to fall off the edge... It's not half bad.

Because it's literally a level playing field.
Yes, but that doesn't make it an even one.

Part of the integral design of the game's characters involves how well they can adapt to different environments. A character like Little Mac is worse for his inability to cope well with platforms and various layouts. A character like Fox is better for his ability to cope with a large number of terrains. And when we limit the starter list like that, we nerf that attribute. We artificially tweak game balance in favor of characters who are good on a very certain, specific terrain, and against characters who are good at a wide variety.

Yeah, Little Mac is really, really good on a perfectly flat, even surface with no platforms. That "level playing field" you mentioned earlier. He excels there, and can go toe to toe with most of the cast there. But that's not the extent of Smash. Smash has exactly two of those - Final Destination and Bridge of Eldin. By comparison, counting only stages that are legitimate for tournament play, there are something like 5 stages with pass-through main platforms, 4 stages with the delfino-esque "stop at various locations" gameplay, numerous ones with temporary or permanent angled terrain, at least 2 with damaging hazards, 2 with water... You get the idea. This "level playing field" is actually a specific outlier even within the drastically reduced tournament environment! To use that as your baseline for "even play" just seems silly to me. Especially when it leads to some characters getting their second-best stage on game 1, the game which is supposed to be held on "neutral" ground. You're far better off striking from the list - you'll never get a character getting their second-best stage game 1, unless the players both agree to it. You'll end up with their 5th-best, 6th-best, or even 7th-best for each character (depending on how big your starter list is), which, unlike SV, is actually going to be really close to "even" ground in almost every matchup.
 
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A bit of devil's advocate-
because those stages are static, they will confer certain advantages for an entire game to one character/player. Couldn't it be argued that Wuhu, Skyloft, and Delfino are the most fair stages in the game since they provide a wide array of advantageous and disadvantageous situations for a character/player throughout the match?

Your definition of "fair" seems to be pretty close to "regular", which isn't totally unreasonable, but a "fair" stage should probably be whatever makes a matchup closest to 5-5 between any two characters.
I disagree. If a matchup is bad, a matchup is bad. Stages (or, more to the point, adaptability) play a big role in that. It should be whatever brings it closest to the average over all legal stages. Case in point:

This is not achievable by a list of only three stages, let's look at a fictional example:

Diddy vs. Little Mac
8-2 Diddy's favor on Smashville
7-3 Diddy's favor on Battlefield
5-5 even on Final Destination
If those were the only stages, then it would be completely unjustifiable to force game one to happen on FD. Yeah, it would lead to the more even matchup, but Diddy-Mac isn't an even matchup. Diddy is much, much more adaptable than Mac, with more tools and a better air-game. Mac can sorta hack it on his best counterpicks, but we don't give people their best counterpicks round one. This is exactly the kind of matchup-fixing that expanding the stagelist is supposed to fix.

If we toss ten more stages in the mix, Mac still probably won't get a 5-5, but maybe he'll end up with a 4-6, which is a lot closer to "fair" than picking from three stages.
This on the other hand is exactly what we're talking about with larger starter lists. Thank you. :)
 

madworlder

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I probably should have said "closest to average" as opposed to "closest to 5-5", but it gets the point across
 

LiteralGrill

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Look, I love it, I want to save as many stages as I can but that has happened too many times, players are noticing and frankly I can't disagree. On-stream alone it changed several matches much to the surprise of viewers and players alike.
SO you're going to ban it because the players lack stage knowledge? Ignorantia juris non excusat, or for you non latin speakers ignorance of the law does not excuse or in this case, ignorance of the stage. That's a silly reason to ban if. I personally have used this "magical hitboxes no one knows of" to fast fall into so I could recover to the stage where I would have died. Don't ruin the game for players who are smart and practice but a few don't want to.

Look man, I get it. I understand but the game isn't neutral. Nothing is really neutral but this is the closest thing to it.
No it's not remotely close as we've shown in many examples. It skews matchups in an unfair manner AND it's arbitrarily unfair.
 

19_

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If anyone want's to watch some tournament with "jank" stages check out this stream.

http://www.twitch.tv/8wayrun

they were playing orbital gate a moment ago.

This weekly is also great for stage research.
 
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