Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[madworlder]

Can Mom be blocked or dodged on Gamer? It seems like a fine stage if that's the case, despite the danger Mom poses. The potential caves seem to hurt it more than Mom.

EDIT: Mom can be blocked, I honestly think Gamer is fine despite the possible caves.

 

[thehard]

Found this channel through r/smashbros today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmvrW2acCZY

Seems like the stagelist used is pretty liberal; I've watched games with Norfair, Wuhu, and Wii Fit Studio so far. Could be used as evidence for a push to legalize them widely...if it's not too late.

I feel like a lot of bans happen because players and TOs overthink the stages too much, if they bring something new to the table... (hazards, slight camping, walkoffs, etc.) If you just play the stages out a lot of times things turn out fine.

 

[webbedspace]

Can Mom be blocked or dodged on Gamer? It seems like a fine stage if that's the case, despite the danger Mom poses. The potential caves seem to hurt it more than Mom.

EDIT: Mom can be blocked, I honestly think Gamer is fine despite the possible caves.

Caves are definitely as much of a problem as Mom (and the only reason Luigi's Mansion and Skyworld are busted), and they're hampered even more by the fact that quitting a game to "re-roll" the layout of Gamer 1) requires Pause to be enabled, and 2) takes upward of 10 seconds of "No Contest" animation. Don't hold your breath.

Also, citing other tournaments as evidence of validity doesn't work because you only need one degenerative or overcentralised game to prove a stage is busted. The only way to "unban" a stage is to prove a negative - i.e. it's basically impossible.

Already did!

Gamer seems to be the most liked out of many "banned" stages.

I'm a bit surprised to hear this because I know a few people whispered that they'd bend the rules for Mushroom Kingdom U, a stage too good to waste. Maybe the footage of Nabbit bagging someone then instantly falling off the stage shut them up for good?

 

[Piford]

Found this channel through r/smashbros today: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmvrW2acCZY

Seems like the stagelist used is pretty liberal; I've watched games with Norfair, Wuhu, and Wii Fit Studio so far. Could be used as evidence for a push to legalize them widely...if it's not too late.

I feel like a lot of bans happen because players and TOs overthink the stages too much, if they bring something new to the table... (hazards, slight camping, walkoffs, etc.) If you just play the stages out a lot of times things turn out fine.

http://smashboards.com/threads/were-running-experimental-rules-tomorrow.383916/

 

[webbedspace]

http://smashboards.com/threads/were-running-experimental-rules-tomorrow.383916/

IMHO enough people earlier in this very thread have reiterated that perma-walk-offs are not and can never be usable, not because of chain-throws (which they cite as the "sole" reason) but because of camping the blast-lines for sheer-luck insta-kill grabs (which is a bad strategy, but still one that can knock off a stock for what we agree are arbitrary reasons). Including them probably hurt their credibility beyond repair.

(I get a kick that Pac-Land's only listed ban reason is "too small" - forgetting that the scrolling walk-offs are basically equivalent to chain-grab walk-offs.)

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Can Mom be blocked or dodged on Gamer? It seems like a fine stage if that's the case, despite the danger Mom poses. The potential caves seem to hurt it more than Mom.

EDIT: Mom can be blocked, I honestly think Gamer is fine despite the possible caves.

In my own testing, shielding Mom caused an instant shield break, although I didn't try power shielding. You can definitely sidestep/roll/etc. to avoid her though, super armor powers through, and counterattacks trigger normally (except for Toad because reasons). If you could describe how you blocked Mom I'd be intrigued.

Also, Luma is completely immune to Mom. I imagine this goes for other "destructible" entities as well.

 

[madworlder]

In my own testing, shielding Mom caused an instant shield break, although I didn't try power shielding. You can definitely sidestep/roll/etc. to avoid her though, super armor powers through, and counterattacks trigger normally (except for Toad because reasons). If you could describe how you blocked Mom I'd be intrigued.

Also, Luma is completely immune to Mom. I imagine this goes for other "destructible" entities as well.

Here. You can tell it connects since Mom enters the demon animation.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Here. You can tell it connects since Mom enters the demon animation.

Looks like a powershield. That's interesting information, I'll edit my Gamer thread.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Not all stages have meaningful music that affects the gameplay, but when playing on gamer, the "Gamer" track (which is no music) should be the only song that plays so that it's more noticeable when Mom appears. If a different song shows up, reset and reroll

 

[DavemanCozy]

What are the current thoughts on Pokemon Stadium 2?

I think it's still a worthwhile counterpick myself, the transformations aren't too bad but they do seem to give notable advantages to certain characters. I'm curious what people think of it now

 

[Piford]

Not all stages have meaningful music that affects the gameplay, but when playing on gamer, the "Gamer" track (which is no music) should be the only song that plays so that it's more noticeable when Mom appears. If a different song shows up, reset and reroll

Well you can change the music from the SSS by clicking Y and setting all other songs to off (although a lot of people like Ashley's Song because its amazing)

What are the current thoughts on Pokemon Stadium 2?

I think it's still a worthwhile counterpick myself, the transformations aren't too bad but they do seem to give notable advantages to certain characters. I'm curious what people think of it now

PS2 is still just as debated as ever. I personally like it and think its a great stage. I don't really think any transformation besides maybe the air gives an advantage to any kind of character.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Well you can change the music from the SSS by clicking Y and setting all other songs to off (although a lot of people like Ashley's Song because its amazing)


PS2 is still just as debated as ever. I personally like it and think its a great stage. I don't really think any transformation besides maybe the air gives an advantage to any kind of character.

Yes, but setting the other sings to the lowest point doesnt completely negate the chance of them appearing

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yes, but setting the other sings to the lowest point doesnt completely negate the chance of them appearing

Wait, it doesn't? Seriously?

I am positive it does. I turned off "Seven Rings in Hand" and "Excite Truck," not once have I ever had to listen to them again when picking Windy Hill and Mario Circuit (Brawl), respectively. Is it just extremely rare for them to show up?

 

[Quickhero]

Wait, it doesn't? Seriously?

I am positive it does. I turned off "Seven Rings in Hand" and "Excite Truck," not once have I ever had to listen to them again when picking Windy Hill and Mario Circuit (Brawl), respectively. Is it just extremely rare for them to show up?

You're right, it has an absolutely zero percent chance.

Although I have to ask, what special aspect does Gamer provide that other stages can't? Not even thinking about mom, that cave under the table is just too strong and in my opinion too likely to be caught under in order for a stage that doesn't do a whole lot competitively seems questionable at the very least.

 

[webbedspace]

IMHO enough people earlier in this very thread have reiterated that perma-walk-offs are not and can never be usable, not because of chain-throws (which they cite as the "sole" reason) but because of camping the blast-lines for sheer-luck insta-kill grabs (which is a bad strategy, but still one that can knock off a stock for what we agree are arbitrary reasons). Including them probably hurt their credibility beyond repair.

Replying to myself here to open a quick question which I think hasn't come up too often in this thread: could it be possible to legalise Wii Fit Studio/Coliseum/Galaxy by concocting a complex ban prohibiting walk-off blast-line camping? Something like "if you're the only player in the offscreen magnifying glass, you're disqualified if you stay in it for over 20-30 seconds." Obviously this could be gamed by rapidly rolling out and rolling back in, but maybe that'd give the opponent a chance to score a decent hit on the camper without risk of insta-grab-kill? Just thinking aloud here.

 

[warriorman222]

Replying to myself here to open a quick question which I think hasn't come up too often in this thread: could it be possible to legalise Wii Fit Studio/Coliseum/Galaxy by concocting a complex ban prohibiting walk-off blast-line camping? Something like "if you're the only player in the offscreen magnifying glass, you're disqualified if you stay in it for over 20-30 seconds." Obviously this could be gamed by rapidly rolling out and rolling back in, but maybe that'd give the opponent a chance to score a decent hit on the camper without risk of insta-grab-kill? Just thinking aloud here.

Just like Smogon, most people here won't make or like unnecessarily complex bans.Just how Instead of banning Gunk Shot and Low Kick on Greninja, they ban Greninja, instead of banning degenerate gameplay, they ban the stages.

I personally disagree with both of these and prefer your method, but I see the problems with this: it could open the floogates. Another Smogon example: If they unbanned Blaze Blaziken, people would want non-SS Tyranitar lower, Torrent Greninja lower, list goes on. Or unbanning this could make people want things like the Temples allowed with no camping, or Orbital Gate.

The only exception I can immediately think of (within 20 seconds) is Wuhu, as that glitch requires precise conditions(vs Wario or Villager, in a spot down to the pixel, with timing down to the frame), and even with said precise conditions that will never realistically happen, it has a 1/10 chance of success.

 

[Ticker]

You're right, it has an absolutely zero percent chance.

Although I have to ask, what special aspect does Gamer provide that other stages can't? Not even thinking about mom, that cave under the table is just too strong and in my opinion too likely to be caught under in order for a stage that doesn't do a whole lot competitively seems questionable at the very least.

Yea I think this needs to be answered more when people are trying to legalize stages that are on the border. What do they offer that other stages don't from a gameplay pespective. Adding additional stages for variety isn't a reason to add a stage to a decently sized stage list.

 

[webbedspace]

Just like Smogon, most people here won't make or like unnecessarily complex bans.Just how Instead of banning Gunk Shot and Low Kick on Greninja, they ban Greninja, instead of banning degenerate gameplay, they ban the stages.

I personally disagree with both of these and prefer your method, but I see the problems with this: it could open the floogates. Another Smogon example: If they unbanned Blaze Blaziken, people would want non-SS Tyranitar lower, Torrent Greninja lower, list goes on. Or unbanning this could make people want things like the Temples allowed with no camping, or Orbital Gate.

I personally think making an exception just for WFS/Coliseum is valuable enough to merit this kind of fiddling, because A) they're the only stages with live-changing randomised platform positions, which provide unique opportunities to improvise plays using the stage - basically all the boon of a traveling stage with none of the oft-hyperventilated "jank", and B) because maybe they could help no-recovery characters like Mac crawl up from the tier depths.

 

[warriorman222]

I personally think making an exception just for WFS/Coliseum is valuable enough to merit this kind of fiddling, because A) they're the only stages with live-changing randomised platform positions, which provide unique opportunities to improvise plays using the stage - basically all the boon of a traveling stage with none of the oft-hyperventilated "jank", and B) because maybe they could help no-recovery characters like Mac crawl up from the tier depths.

I'm not satying I disagree with you, I want that to happen and I see your argument. It's just that the scrubs will open the floodgates, and nobody wants that. Besides, strategies are harder to ban and enforce, since it can be banned within the game, nor the person's mind.

 

[MrGame&Rock]

Perhaps a better idea for a complex ban, instead of a time limit, is that if you're in the magnifying glass, you can't grab? Hell, we can apply that to all stages, like the walk-off bits in Wuhu, and the logic is that it wouldn't obviously apply in any other kind of stage

 

[Pazx]

You don't actually need to be in the magnifying glass to camp the walkoffs.

 

[DavemanCozy]

How would you even enforce bans like this? I've grabbed my opponent on the platform of Town and City just as it's leaving off the side and thrown my opponent offstage while in the magnifying glass. Would I throw the match for doing that?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

While I mostly agree that simple bans are better than complex bans, I would make an exception for when an obvious and obscure glitch breaks a stage. Like in Brawl you could clip into Halberd with Meta Knight and waste a ton of time; that particular tactic I think is very bannable (if you accidentally end up inside the stage, you have to jump out from your camping cubby, similar to how in past smash games that had infinites you were forced to transition to either a kill move or letting them out at 300%). I'm pretty sure there are a few clips possible in 4 that are kinda similar; I've seen video of Halberd clips and I've accidentally done one on the ground form of Pokemon Stadium 2 (I was Palutena and ended up inside the mountain; I did something to the slope while it was popping out... feel free to try to figure out the rest if you want). All of that stuff is probably bannable in a reasonable manner. That's my particular exception that proves the rule; banning stuff like grabbing near the edge of the stage is just silly and would be a tournament nightmare on multiple levels (and it doesn't even really stop Sonic's shenanigans). A ban has to be discrete, enforceable, and warranted, and while we can argue all day about warranted, most tactical bans fail on either discrete or enforceable.

 

[Pazx]

Smashboards drinking game: 1 shot every time someone links to sirlin
2 shots every time someone refers to sirlin or "playing to win"
finish the bottle every time someone quotes sirlin

 

[thehard]

We can't help that he's perfect.

 

[webbedspace]

Informal poll to anyone who cares: out of the two touring stages Wuhu Island and The 'Loft (which I propose we now use instead of "Skyloft" because apparently people cite "it was banned in Brawl" as a reason for banning this stage - thanks, Nintendo naming schemes) which is the superior stage in terms of design, and, if only one could be broadly legal (none ever will, but let's pretend) which ought it be to improve stage variety?

It seems like 'Loft is a smidge more popular among the stage-liberals, but then again it's mitigated by more than inconvenient transformations like the circular island, the bell tower, and the windmill. And, of course, cries of "the archway blocked my up-smash" will ring out when the touring platform swoops under that bit. Wuhu, to my observation, only has the volcano and possibly the jetskis as overtly engagement-hindering - but with this comes significantly less use of floating platforms outside of the touring platform. Wuhu's somewhat larger size is both a boon in terms of variety and a detriment in terms of potentially prolonging stocks beyond the expected norm.

 

[infomon]

The relative difference between Smashville and FD is substantially less (lower impact) than the relative difference between Wuhu and Skyloft. There should be no talk of "one or the other". Either the stage is valid, or it isn't.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I have a marginal preference for Wuhu Island over Skyloft, but that's simply because I've beaten Skyward Sword but never played any of the Wii ___ games, so Wuhu Island is a breath of fresh air in terms of scenery/music/etc. and that's hardly good criteria to choose a stage by.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Wuhu Island any day over Skyloft (or the 'Loft).

Both are beautiful stages, but I think Skyloft has much more problematic and campy transitions, some even create circle-camping and temple-basement caves of life.

The hill area with the walk-off on the left and pit on the right in Wuhu Island is also kind-of a problem, that balloon that floats up from the right is deadly if you burst it, that causes a lot of knockback.

 

[Piford]

Wuhu Island any day over Skyloft (or the 'Loft).

Both are beautiful stages, but I think Skyloft has much more problematic and campy transitions, some even create circle-camping and temple-basement caves of life.

The hill area with the walk-off on the left and pit on the right in Wuhu Island is also kind-of a problem, that balloon that floats up from the right is deadly if you burst it, that causes a lot of knockback.

You can't circle camp on skyloft. I assume the transformation this is the transformation your talking about. If your opponent attempts to circle camp you (or camp the cave of life) just stand on the top. When the stage comes back up either they can approach you themselves, and you can take action because they have extremely limited options of approach, or they can wait to have the stage force them to approach you. The giant rock pushes them towards you and you can have at them since they have no where to go and are getting closer to you every second. Either way they get out of camping a bunch of damage or death and a loss of stage control. Those 5 seconds were not worth losing all of that, so they won't camp. Every other transformation (on basically ever transforming stage) is similar in how you can punish camping and how the camper loses stage control.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Well it's official, the stagelist for Smash 4 Worldwide.

STARTERS

• Final Destination
• Battlefield
• Town and City
• Smashville
• Lylat Cruise

COUNTERPICKS

• Castle Siege
• Delfino Plaza
• Duck Hunt
• Halberd
• Kongo Jungle 64
• Skyloft
  (No omega stages)

The numbers in the poll really weren't shifting at that point. Our little poll for Pokemon Stadium 2 showed it wasn't going to be accepted and Wuhu Island while very close was just a bit under for being kept legal. If you wanna see those two stages remain legal at event you will have to fight hard for them.

Castle Siege and Skyloft were also VERY close have just barely over enough support to leave them be. So watch for them and well and be sure you fight for them if you think they should remain legal.

Basically anything not on that list or in the paragraph I just wrote about has about 0% chance for being legal just due to the general public. We can try to educate folks on certain things but it isn't too likely to make a difference. I may just run a tournament again near Apex week (something for fun) that has stages like Gamer or the few still left on the wings (Mario Circuit Wii U and Windy Hill Zone) but I'm not expecting much for it other then folks having fun.

 

[thehard]

I would be happy with that. Problems I foresee: people getting "annoyed" at Duck Hunt's various oddities, leading to a ban, people getting annoyed at 2nd transformation on CS, leading to a ban, and Skyloft not actually getting legalized in most places.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I would be happy with that. Problems I foresee: people getting "annoyed" at Duck Hunt's various oddities, leading to a ban, people getting annoyed at 2nd transformation on CS, leading to a ban, and Skyloft not actually getting legalized in most places.

I could VERY much see that happen, which is why I said if you don't want them gone better start educating folks.

 

[thehard]

I could VERY much see that happen, which is why I said if you don't want them gone better start educating folks.

Yes, I'm surely getting through to VGBootCamp Twitch chat on why they're perfectly viable.

 

[Pazx]

yooooo capps you made a mistake posting in the aussie thread (but I appreciate your input nonetheless)

On top of that I also think your stage list is perfect. I want PS2, conservatives want to ban things, this is good.

@ skyloft vs wuhu, I genuinely think that Skyloft >>>>>> Delfino > Wuhu

 

[webbedspace]

Another question: has anyone considered legalising Wuhu Island for doubles? I feel as if approximately all complaints waged against this stage, valid or bogus, would be rectified in a doubles environment - and I believe the traveling platform is wide enough to be doubles-comfortable.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Another question: has anyone considered legalising Wuhu Island for doubles? I feel as if approximately all complaints waged against this stage, valid or bogus, would be rectified in a doubles environment - and I believe the traveling platform is wide enough to be doubles-comfortable.

Actually, I'd like to extend this question to Coliseum/Wii FIt Studio as well. Would it be easier or harder to abuse walkoffs in a doubles environment?

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Wuhu island should be legal no if and or buts. There is nothing wrong with that stage and every argument made against it has a counter.

I want to see people try to camp on this stage and win. People NEED to learn. People won't learn unless they are actually play on it and see the hard way what trying to camp on this stage does.

Castle seige is in trouble because wuhu island isn't legal. People are using the same arguments for castle seige as they did Wuhu.

People aren't learning anything, they are just sticking to their same old conservative value which is really going to bite us hard if we don't do something mark my words.

If no one does anything soon this stage list is going to go down the drain.

 

[webbedspace]

Eh, realistically it's already too late. It's been two months, so the singles meta is now fully locked down for the next seven years with only more bans permitted. Let's just accept that only Brawl stages are legal, and hope no past stages return in Smash 5 so people actually have to try the new stages before banning them.

 

[Pazx]

gr8 b8 m8! r8: 8/8