Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Davis-Lightheart]

As a long-time TO I've had to face some difficult questions about Stages. All my competitors want a "fair" match, but individually they are trying to pull out-of-game politics to get more advantage over their opponents (who can blame them trying to win any way they can?). Turning to find some wisdom on the topic I come to Smashboards, but coming here has only worsened the problem: Why are "legal" stages based on how much people complain about them being "unfair" for characters?
You all will be left with nothing to play on.

I'm not ever going to get into a debate about legal stages, it's a losing battle. Instead I am going to focus on the SYSTEM itself, ground myself in the Competitive Principles which drive a Competitive Arena. Then and only then will I have a way for ALL my attendees to be able to play on ALL the stages in a FAIR match.

If anyone is interested how I am going to pull this off, I implore you to PM me with questions/comments or follow my writings on Competition Philosophia (the love of wisdom regarding Competition, versus "casual play").
I believe logic and reason will play a strong role in how this game is ruled, as these have been my tools to aid in rule-development the past decade of work I've put in.

You should probably throw your thoughts into this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/determining-the-procedure-to-pick-stages-in-smash-4.375067/

Edit: Mario Kart 8 looks like a great stage. A lot of variety, but predictable.

Kalos is looking somewhat sketchy though. The hazards look predictable, but they also look very exploitable. We shall see how this one turns out seeing as now Rayquaza isn't a problem. I feel it's going to be banned in most conservative lists, but accepted in liberal ones.

 

[LiteralGrill]

After last night's 3DS event on the subreddit I have concluded it is pointless to continue testing stages. The few stages we had remaining most people seemed to want banned anyways to fight on the original five stage list now. After all of the massive complaints on this and adding stages, it's a bit annoying to be told to just get rid of them all but this is what people seem to want and is going to happen.

Stopo wasting you time hoping for the slightly unusual here, no one is going to be willing to play on them BUT you. This is what I am learning here as much as that stinks. If it's not insanely tame it's not going to be legal in the long run.

 

[Cruncher93]

After last night's 3DS event on the subreddit I have concluded it is pointless to continue testing stages. The few stages we had remaining most people seemed to want banned anyways to fight on the original five stage list now. After all of the massive complaints on this and adding stages, it's a bit annoying to be told to just get rid of them all but this is what people seem to want and is going to happen.

Stopo wasting you time hoping for the slightly unusual here, no one is going to be willing to play on them BUT you. This is what I am learning here as much as that stinks. If it's not insanely tame it's not going to be legal in the long run.

So what is the consensus on the stage list? Seems everyone is only discussion Wii U stages even though it isn't out.

Starter: BF, FD, Yoshi
CP: Ferox, Tomadachi, Prism Tower ? Would be nice to know what everyone has settled for.

 

[Piford]

After last night's 3DS event on the subreddit I have concluded it is pointless to continue testing stages. The few stages we had remaining most people seemed to want banned anyways to fight on the original five stage list now. After all of the massive complaints on this and adding stages, it's a bit annoying to be told to just get rid of them all but this is what people seem to want and is going to happen.

Stopo wasting you time hoping for the slightly unusual here, no one is going to be willing to play on them BUT you. This is what I am learning here as much as that stinks. If it's not insanely tame it's not going to be legal in the long run.

The subreddit might not be the best place to judge the community though. Your probably only going to get complaints, since few people are going to comment "Yeah I like Brinstar legal" while a lot of people are going to comment "I hate Brinstar so much." Its a waste of effort to post your opinions unless its an extremist view basically. Also there are a lot of ignorant people there who shun things because they think its "casual." I've seen people with negative votes asking completely legitimate questions. People get down voted because they want to use the pro controller over the gamecube or something. They also draw way to much from the past games to judge whats good for this one. A lot of people don't know that all the Omega's are the same length, that chain grabbing is gone, that wall infinites are gone, that halberd is legal in brawl, ect. Also, a lot of people there just blindly follow set by SBR instead of trying to figure out why those rules are in place. Sorry if I'm completely wrong about the subreddit, but thats what I find there. I might just be the one who's stupid.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So what is the consensus on the stage list? Seems everyone is only discussion Wii U stages even though it isn't out.

Starter: BF, FD, Yoshi
CP: Ferox, Tomadachi, Prism Tower ? Would be nice to know what everyone has settled for.

Pretty close, though most would also remove Tomodachi. MAYBE some folks want Brinstar still. It's not easy right now, there's a fair share of debate.

The subreddit might not be the best place to judge the community though. Your probably only going to get complaints, since few people are going to comment "Yeah I like Brinstar legal" while a lot of people are going to comment "I hate Brinstar so much." Its a waste of effort to post your opinions unless its an extremist view basically. Also there are a lot of ignorant people there who shun things because they think its "casual." I've seen people with negative votes asking completely legitimate questions. People get down voted because they want to use the pro controller over the gamecube or something. They also draw way to much from the past games to judge whats good for this one. A lot of people don't know that all the Omega's are the same length, that chain grabbing is gone, that wall infinites are gone, that halberd is legal in brawl, ect. Also, a lot of people there just blindly follow set by SBR instead of trying to figure out why those rules are in place. Sorry if I'm completely wrong about the subreddit, but thats what I find there. I might just be the one who's stupid.

It's not just the sub, looking at other tournaments and talking to some TOs outside of this thread most folks honestly don't plan on having anything wacky legal, especially if there are large amounts of tame wii u stages. Why have hazards when you don't need to is the word there, and if there are a good number of stages to do that oh yeah they have a point.

 

[Piford]

Pretty close, though most would also remove Tomodachi. MAYBE some folks want Brinstar still. It's not easy right now, there's a fair share of debate.



It's not just the sub, looking at other tournaments and talking to some TOs outside of this thread most folks honestly don't plan on having anything wacky legal, especially if there are large amounts of tame wii u stages. Why have hazards when you don't need to is the word there, and if there are a good number of stages to do that oh yeah they have a point.

Sorry, since you mentioned the subs tournament, I thought that was where most of the flack was coming from. But people still don't seem to understand the more stages there are, the more balanced the game becomes. Hazards aren't inherently bad, as smart players can utilize telegraphed ones to their advantage. Of course there are bad hazards like the Yellow Devil, but there are also good ones like the Combo Cannon. The more restrictions that are put on the game, the worse the community is going to look and the harder it is going to be to attract new players, in theory. It'd probably be a lot healthier for the game to do a hard reset and keep everything legal than it is to ban almost everything like most people want.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Sorry, since you mentioned the subs tournament, I thought that was where most of the flack was coming from. But people still don't seem to understand the more stages there are, the more balanced the game becomes. Hazards aren't inherently bad, as smart players can utilize telegraphed ones to their advantage. Of course there are bad hazards like the Yellow Devil, but there are also good ones like the Combo Cannon. The more restrictions that are put on the game, the worse the community is going to look and the harder it is going to be to attract new players, in theory. It'd probably be a lot healthier for the game to do a hard reset and keep everything legal than it is to ban almost everything like most people want.

It would be healthier and you are right is is better for the game to keep more legal. However I doubt there is a way to reeducate an entire community or get people who hate to play on those stages to do so. You have a huge generation of folks stuck in their way that wont change. At least we could fight for the stages that are borderline, but those that people will just toss we need to let go so we can keep the stages that stand a shot at being legal at all.

 

[Piford]

It would be healthier and you are right is is better for the game to keep more legal. However I doubt there is a way to reeducate an entire community or get people who hate to play on those stages to do so. You have a huge generation of folks stuck in their way that wont change. At least we could fight for the stages that are borderline, but those that people will just toss we need to let go so we can keep the stages that stand a shot at being legal at all.

What would you define as a borderline stage though? There are people all across the spectrum. Some people might consider Kalos as borderline, some people Halberd, some people Lylat. I mean there are people who think Smashville is the only good legal stage, at least round one. When brawl started out, 16 stages were banned and 25 stages were legal. We have most of those legal stages back. The criteria for banning a stage was having an over centralizing tactic or marginalizing player skill. Now people seem to think the criteria for banning stages is having a hazard, not being static, among other things. The main reason most of those stages were banned was because Meta Knight was too good, not because the stages themselves were bad.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Isn't this the go to forum when someone wants to discuss Smash? Some TO's are too conservative for their own good, but that's ok. Some TO's are too liberal for their own good, and that's fine too. But a lot of TO's do check popular and reasonable forums like this one, and a lot of TO's will understand and accept rulesets we discuss and as tournaments keep happening, people's opinion could change. Don't underestimate your influence.

By the way, statistically speaking, which Wii U uncommon stages are getting discussion among TO's? What do most tournaments plan to run?

 

[T0MMY]

You should probably throw your thoughts into this thread: http://smashboards.com/threads/determining-the-procedure-to-pick-stages-in-smash-4.375067/

Thank you for directing me to that thread. Forever grateful ;^D

Isn't this the go to forum when someone wants to discuss Smash? Some TO's are too conservative for their own good, but that's ok. Some TO's are too liberal for their own good, and that's fine too.

I think the starting place is what is making for a difficult position for some I see here. May I ask instead why should it be the TO who is determining which Stage the players are using, should that not be the choice of the players? Every time the players sit down they should know that they will be content with the Stage they are playing on without having a TO come by and dictate "That's not 'legal'!" Granted, large stages that could run their tournament too long should be respectfully avoided, but a stage like Brinstar with environmental damage, if agreed upon, should be usuable.
This is the angle at which best to get every stage at least a technical consideration in events.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Thank you for directing me to that thread. Forever grateful ;^D


I think the starting place is what is making for a difficult position for some I see here. May I ask instead why should it be the TO who is determining which Stage the players are using, should that not be the choice of the players? Every time the players sit down they should know that they will be content with the Stage they are playing on without having a TO come by and dictate "That's not 'legal'!" Granted, large stages that could run their tournament too long should be respectfully avoided, but a stage like Brinstar with environmental damage, if agreed upon, should be usuable.
This is the angle at which best to get every stage at least a technical consideration in events.

Players already decide what stages are playable via the counter-pick system and the mere fact of participating in said tournament.
You also can't ignore that there are differences in rulesets depending on the tournament.
The Gentlemen's Rule has a misleading name. The correct name should be the Gentlemen's Exception. It simply ignores a rule based on personal agreement between both players, and if that was the rule, then this thread would have no reason for existing.

 

[T0MMY]

Players already decide what stages are playable via the counter-pick system and the mere fact of participating in said tournament.

I would then ask why we are even here discussing the matter if this is true.

You also can't ignore that there are differences in rulesets depending on the tournament.

I don't know who you would be directing this at, as I haven't noticed anyone doing this.

The Gentlemen's Rule has a misleading name. The correct name should be the Gentlemen's Exception. It simply ignores a rule based on personal agreement between both players, and if that was the rule, then this thread would have no reason for existing.

In other words if the Gentleman's Rule was properly implemented (as the Agreement Method) we would have solved the problem sufficiently that this thread would not have reason for existing.
Cool, better set about getting it properly implemented then and get on with things.

 

[Piford]

Another look at Kalos pokemon league (and some other stages).
So the fire walls work similarly to the swords, and it seems the fire flares on the sides about half way through the transformation.
The metal goop in the steel chamber doesn't look like normal metal, although I didn't really see it change anything besides aesthetics and didn't last very long.
The swords will get pushed further in by attacking them.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Another look at Kalos pokemon league (and some other stages).
So the fire walls work similarly to the swords, and it seems the fire flares on the sides about half way through the transformation.
The metal goop in the steel chamber doesn't look like normal metal, although I didn't really see it change anything besides aesthetics and didn't last very long.
The swords will get pushed further in by attacking them.

Looks like a viable stage overall to me, especially since none of the hazards seem to have anything resembling kill power.

The metal goop seems to apply a Metal Box effect, although this is based purely on how fast Greninja fell while under the effects. It was a bit hard to judge knockback in the video.

 

[LiteralGrill]

[quote="T0MMY, post: 17893907, member: 23326"\]
In other words if the Gentleman's Rule was properly implemented (as the Agreement Method) we would have solved the problem sufficiently that this thread would not have reason for existing.
Cool, better set about getting it properly implemented then and get on with things.[/quote]

The reason the gentleman's pick does not work for all stage choices is no player in their right mind should let you play the stage YOU want to play on even if it is a reasonable stage as it gives the opponent something THEY want. Giving your opponent an advantage of any kind on purpose is unhelpful. The only time it works is if both players want to both start on Battlefield or something similar, you'll never see it actually allowing a stage like Brinstar to be played outside of insanely rare circumstances.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

The thing is, the TO can only do so much before having to cave in under pressure. It should be the job of us players who want these stages legal to ban together and be louder than the ban extremists. I know I shut one extremist up with some solid reasoning during a Wrecking Crew argument. (I am going to advocate for that until the end of time.)

 

[LiteralGrill]

The thing is, the TO can only do so much before having to cave in under pressure. It should be the job of us players who want these stages legal to ban together and be louder than the ban extremists. I know I shut one extremist up with some solid reasoning during a Wrecking Crew argument. (I am going to advocate for that until the end of time.)

That will not matter if something like Apex runs a ruleset without those stages anyways. People will want to practice for those events and thus follow that ruleset. I'm not saying being vocal is a bad thing, it's a very good thing. But it does not necessarily mean things will change.

 

[numanumaking13]

The Kalos Pokemon League stage should be a legal stage. I see very little reason to ban it after all the game play I've seen of it. The only thing of concern would be Rayquaza but it seems like he doesn't appear at all during the match which is a good thing in my eyes.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

That will not matter if something like Apex runs a ruleset without those stages anyways. People will want to practice for those events and thus follow that ruleset. I'm not saying being vocal is a bad thing, it's a very good thing. But it does not necessarily mean things will change.

It's pointless to warn anyone. Most people who try to save irregular stages go in with the expectations that they won't win any arguments or that the big tourneys will be against them. If you don't try though, then nothing really will change, so you may as well argue as if they will change, even if you may believe otherwise.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Hm, I wanted to finally put my hat in the ring for this Wii U stagelist idea. This is based on how I've been seeing folks react to other stages and such while TOing thus far, though even then this is an AMAZING stagelist considering how the rest of smash has looked. If we want all stages to be legal starters (FLSS) I think we could have a 11 stage list with almost NO issues.

Battlefield
Castle Seige
Delfino Plaza
Final Destination
Kongo Jungle (size dependent)
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Skyloft
Town and City
Pilot Wings
Wuhu Island

I see just about ZERO people arguing any of those should not be legal. It may even be able to be added to by these few that just might have tiny issues.

Halberd (I know this one may seem surprising, but wit Vectoring now it's might not be as easy to escape the giant laser hazard anymore which could make it a bit stronger now)

Mario Circuit (Wii U) (The cars and how some spaces are cut off. Even then this stage is pretty awesome and could have some cool things tested. It looks like an easy choice for legal)

Windy Hill Zone (It looks a bit big and has the bumpers, but other then that it's honestly a very solid looking stage.)

Orbital Gate (This one seems like a much better style of Poke Floats. With all of the other stages being just that amazing though I could see this one getting flack. Still, it will be legal for at least a while for sure.)

If all of these made it we'd have a 15 stage stagelist IF you could convince folks to go FLSS. It's tough here, with so many stages to counterpick we may either need more bans (especially in a starter/cp system).

With starter/cp though some of the more borderline stages I agree will slowly move and die probably leaving us with just the 11 (unless any of them turn out to be an actual problem which then they'll just go).

I can say for sure the subreddit will be running at least all of those 15 for their first event more then likely, possibly more if we learn more stages are hidden that we haven't seen yet. But as for FLSS or starter/cp, I'm unsure. Most folks did not like FLSS at our larger tournament so I'm guessing it's going to be harder to fight for. At least I could see 7 stages as super easily starters as well, so the list wouldn't have to be super short.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I'm not really understanding the whole thing about the walls and Mario Circuit U (8?).

I mean like, how on earth are they good? They cut off KO options and can be exploited for crazy combos, damage, etc. Like... Wasn't one of Corneria's issues in Melee the fin? I don't see how MCU is much better other than that it transforms, but the walls are still there a lot. Kudos to this stage for having perfectly fine cars and walkoffs tho, they're really not issues.

But yeah, I really am concerned about the walls here, and I absolutely cannot fathom how one can say that they bring something good to the game.

Also, Orbital Gate.... its such an awesome stage and I want it to be legal, but its just bad from a competitive standpoint... Misleading platforms, sometimes rapid and hard transitions... I really am not feeling it for this one.

I don't see why Halberd would be banned. It and Delphino look fine to me as CPs.

Skyloft idk about either. I need to see more about it. So far so good, but some transitions seem iffy.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm not really understanding the whole thing about the walls and Mario Circuit U (8?).

I mean like, how on earth are they good? They cut off KO options and can be exploited for crazy combos, damage, etc. Like... Wasn't one of Corneria's issues in Melee the fin? I don't see how MCU is much better other than that it transforms, but the walls are still there a lot. Kudos to this stage for having perfectly fine cars and walkoffs tho, they're really not issues. But yeah, I really am concerned about the walls here, and I absolutely cannot fathom how one can say that they bring something good to the game.

Corneria in Melee had wall INFINITES where you could just be trapped there forever. Without these, the most you can get is a cool string possibly, something that Hyrule Castle in 64 has shown can be incredibly hype. They do make for a very different game experience without destorying the stage, it's worth trying for sure.

Also, Orbital Gate.... its such an awesome stage and I want it to be legal, but its just bad from a competitive standpoint... Misleading platforms, sometimes rapid and hard transitions... I really am not feeling it for this one.

I did say this one was probably the iffiest sadly (it looks so cool). Still, it's worth testing and trying out.

I don't see why Halberd would be banned. It and Delphino look fine to me as CPs

I think it should be fine too, I could just see that without DI and having Vectoring now the large laser the stage can shoot might be much more powerful (you used to be able to DI out of it and miss the largest hit that did the real knockback, this may no longer be possible).

 

[Deleted member]

Halberd (I know this one may seem surprising, but wit Vectoring now it's might not be as easy to escape the giant laser hazard anymore which could make it a bit stronger now)

Windy Hill Zone (It looks a bit big and has the bumpers, but other then that it's honestly a very solid looking stage.)

About Halberd, I still think it will be legal since everything is so telegraphed and slow, plus its not there for most of the match.

Honestly I think Windy Hill is fine when it comes to the bumpers and windmill. Its not that big, and its only problem is potential circle camping with certain fast characters. But we don't know how that will turn out since we don't have the game.

 

[Piford]

Orbital Gate will probably be a lot better when people learn it. We saw footage of people playing on it for the first time so of course it was surprising to them.

Halberd legal is great because most people agree on how its legal, and it opens the way for other predictable hazards Kalos to be accepted.

The springs in Windy Hill aren't there all the time, which makes it less of a problem.

 

[T0MMY]

The reason the gentleman's pick does not work for all stage choices is no player in their right mind should let you play the stage YOU want to play on even if it is a reasonable stage as it gives the opponent something THEY want. Giving your opponent an advantage of any kind on purpose is unhelpful. The only time it works is if both players want to both start on Battlefield or something similar, you'll never see it actually allowing a stage like Brinstar to be played outside of insanely rare circumstances.

Not with that attitude.
Haha, but really...
At my events I at least give my attendees to go to these stages and it happens every once in a while. How is the first stage ever going to start on something like Halberd using current rules? The only way I've seen it happen is through Agreement.
And just as an FYI, people have agreed to Brinstar (I was asked if I wanted to go to Brinstar two tourneys ago, but I declined because it was a doubles match and I wanted a larger stage for 4 players to utilize, and I think we ended up going to another somewhat unorthodox stage).
So, when there's a better option I'll try it out, but until then I've got a very good system in place for everyone.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Here's what I got so far.....

STAGE LIST #1

Spoiler

STARTER
- Miiverse (once released)
- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Doubles Only?)
- Lylat Cruise (until Miiverse is released, will then be a counter)

COUNTER-PICK
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8)
- Delfino Plaza
- Luigi's Mansion
- Halberd
- Norfair
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokémon League
- Pokémon Stadium 2
- Skyloft
- Castle Siege
- Garden of Hope
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Windy Hill Zone

STAGE LIST #2

Spoiler

UNIVERSAL
- Omega Random

Anybody got something to say about it? (Remember: this is a pre-launch list)

 

[Piford]

Here's what I got so far.....

STAGE LIST #1

Spoiler

STARTER
- Miiverse (once released)
- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Doubles Only)
- Lylat Cruise (until Miiverse is released, will then be a counter)

COUNTER-PICK
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8)
- Delfino Plaza
- Luigi's Mansion
- Halberd
- Norfair
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokémon League
- Pokémon Stadium 2
- Skyloft
- Castle Siege
- Garden of Hope
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Windy Hill Zone

You can't really say if a stage is a counterpick or a starter until you can prove it gives certain characters an advantage over another. Also with all past stages being smaller, I'd assume Congo Jungle is going to be legal in singles. We also can't say for sure that Big Battlefield is too big for singles too. And if Miiverse ends up being different from Battlefield, then I would say its more likely that a stage like Pilot Wings or Castle Siege becomes a starter than it is for Lylat Cruise to become a counter. Final Destination is a stage more deserving of counterpick than Lylat cruise would be, if a stage did have to switch from being a starter.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You can't really say if a stage is a counterpick or a starter until you can prove it gives certain characters an advantage over another. Also with all past stages being smaller, I'd assume Congo Jungle is going to be legal in singles. We also can't say for sure that Big Battlefield is too big for singles too. And if Miiverse ends up being different from Battlefield, then I would say its more likely that a stage like Pilot Wings or Castle Siege becomes a starter than it is for Lylat Cruise to become a counter. Final Destination is a stage more deserving of counterpick than Lylat cruise would be, if a stage did have to switch from being a starter.

1.There's no way we know that Kongo Jungle 64 is smaller, but I see your point about it. (Added ?)
2.With all those platforms, Big Battlefield would see a LOT of camping on singles, I can feel it.
3.About Lylat Cruise being a counter, it's only to reduce the time spent in stage striking......
4.For everything else, remember that this is a pre-launch draft which I use so I can already have some kind of plan about which stages we should test for a competitive scene, not a prediction of what I think will happen

 

[Piford]

1.There's no way we know that Kongo Jungle 64 is smaller, but I see your point about it. (Added ?)
2.With all those platforms, Big Battlefield would see a LOT of camping on singles, I can feel it.
3.About Lylat Cruise being a counter, it's only to reduce the time spent in stage striking......
4.For everything else, remember that this is a pre-launch draft which I use so I can already have some kind of plan about which stages we should test for a competitive scene, not a prediction of what I think will happen

I know that I made another thread about this issue, but I'll just want to address this. The reason there was a nuetral/counterpick devision in the first place was that game 1 stage would be decided by a random selection from those neutral stages to save time. Players would each strike their worst stage from the selection, then hit random. Now, There are so few "neutral" stages (1 in 64, 5 in brawl an melee) that people just struck the entire list since it wouldn't take that much more time. So adding more starter stages wouldn't add more time, since its supposed to be a random pick. Now if you want to say your thoughts on the system, I implore you to do so in this thread, since this one is about analyzing the stages themselves.

 

[allshort17]

Halbard will the legal because MK's sharking is gone, which is the reason why it was banned in Brawl.

 

[Piford]

Halbard will the legal because MK's sharking is gone, which is the reason why it was banned in Brawl.

Halberd isn't banned in Brawl.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Not with that attitude.
Haha, but really...
At my events I at least give my attendees to go to these stages and it happens every once in a while. How is the first stage ever going to start on something like Halberd using current rules?

A full list striking system would do it. If every stage legal is always available and you just strike from that list, Halberd will come up sometime.

So, when there's a better option I'll try it out, but until then I've got a very good system in place for everyone.

Try it out, but make sure to go through this thread to understand WHY people want it tried out. There are some good points behind it, @Amazing Ampharos made some specifically in this thread that explains it very well.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I'm probably all alone in my thoughts that Wrecking Crew will be a good stage. What a big *sigh*.

 

[The_Altrox]

I'm probably all alone in my thoughts that Wrecking Crew will be a good stage. What a big *sigh*.

I think it would be okay in teams...

 

[Piford]

I'm probably all alone in my thoughts that Wrecking Crew will be a good stage. What a big *sigh*.

I'm down depending on how the barrels work.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I'm probably all alone in my thoughts that Wrecking Crew will be a good stage. What a big *sigh*.

Sorry man, with so many other stages looking better and not being able to even keep tomodachi life legal without a fight, this similar stage is too lost a cause for me. I wanna fight for something with a better chance.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Sorry man, with so many other stages looking better and not being able to even keep tomodachi life legal without a fight, this similar stage is too lost a cause for me. I wanna fight for something with a better chance.

Show some spine man. If you think it could be legal even with a fight, show some spine or else nothing does happen. At least ban it because you think it's bad, not because others do.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I'm down depending on how the barrels work.

When a barrel falls on someone they get trapped, which probably lets you get a free charged smash on them.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I'm probably all alone in my thoughts that Wrecking Crew will be a good stage. What a big *sigh*.

Well, the barrels can trap you when the floor lowers, but it is predicable. The breakable walls and ladders are also questionnable, but there's nothing overpowered about them.

My opinion: Counter at best, but we really should test it first

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Well, the barrels can trap you when the floor lowers, but it is predicable. The breakable walls and ladders are also questionnable, but there's nothing overpowered about them.

My opinion: Counter at best, but we really should test it first

You can't personally destroy the walls until they have cracks in them from the footage I've seen. At that point they seem to be destroyed by the impact of a player flying as well as bombs. That's the only other thing I've noticed thus far.

I'm so adamant about this stage because it's one of the most unique non obstrusive stages we've gotten in Smash history, I'd love to see this more. However, I do realize it's walking a fine line, and anything can go wrong. I just hope it doesn't. By not having the bombs, or the falling floor hurt, it definitely seems like a counter so far, but if some boss or stupid fireball shows up, (or even some proven whack exploitable garbage), I'm gonna flip out.