Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[LiteralGrill]

WAIT! Are we suggesting of trying another science testing tournament?

I am 100% down to try out more stages and even host an event if people will actually come. We had a few more stages we were thinking of testing too, so it would work. Which walkoff would you suggest we use to test? None of them on the 3DS version are really good for it or have other major issues to ruin their legality though.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Which walkoff would you suggest we use to test?

Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio

 

[LiteralGrill]

Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio

You were suggesting testing them BEFORE the game came out, you would need to test them on a 3DS stage for that to be physically possible

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You were suggesting testing them BEFORE the game came out, you would need to test them on a 3DS stage for that to be physically possible

I know, but if walk-offs are legal, these ones seem really likely to be two of those, since they the only two walk-offs revealed (so far) that doesn't have any hazards.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I know, but if walk-offs are legal, these ones seem really likely to be two of those, since they the only two walk-offs revealed (so far) that doesn't have any hazards.

The only way for either to be legal is to prove walk off camping isn't an issue, so if you could find a stage to test walkoffs on the 3DS right now, that's the way to go.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

The only way for either to be legal is to prove walk off camping isn't an issue, so if you could find a stage to test walkoffs on the 3DS right now, that's the way to go.

You can try out walk-off camping mechanic on Gaur Plains, Gerudo Valley (make sure the witches don't mess it up), Flat Zone 2, Boxing Ring, Living Room and Green Hill Zone.

 

[Piford]

WAIT! Are we suggesting of trying another science testing tournament?

I am 100% down to try out more stages and even host an event if people will actually come. We had a few more stages we were thinking of testing too, so it would work. Which walkoff would you suggest we use to test? None of them on the 3DS version are really good for it or have other major issues to ruin their legality though.

If you were to do another science testing tournament, I would test the stages that got voted highest on the "what other stages should be legal" section of the results.
Off Memory those were Gaur Plains, Unova Pokemon League, Tortimer's Island, 3D Land, Boxing Ring, and Pictochat 2. If you wanted to test Walk-Offs specifically from the 3DS version, Distant Planet, Gaur Plains, and Gerudo Valley would be the best ones, in my opinion. Flat Zone 2, Balloon Fight, and Dream Land's blast zones are way too close, and Living Room can 0-death some of the lighter characters. Green Hill Zone and Boxing Ring aren't too bad but there more camping than just walk-off that can happen in those stages.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I'm just going to chime in and say that I agree with this for the most part. Stages like Prism Tower and Mario Circuit Wii U look very legitimate and can likely be considered starters. However, there are some transforming stages where some of the transformations are very janky that are likely not desirable, for example Paper Mario 3DS with the third transformation.

In general, the rules for what makes a stage legitimate are slightly relaxed for transforming stages, though the stage has to spend at least most of the match being a good stage, and it can't ever be so massively disruptive that you can't play the game at all until it transforms again.

I don't really disagree with this. Paper Mario is not a good stage; the first form is borderline for even a transformer, and the third form is just awful (second form is great though, shame it's not the whole stage). 3ds only really has three good transformers (ignoring Ferox which doesn't "move" and hence doesn't really count as a transformer in my book): Prism Tower, Reset Bomb Forest, and Rainbow Road with the latter being obnoxious in a few ways that I don't think are a good enough reaosn to ban it but do make it worse than most of what we've seen from Wii U transformers. RBF is also clearly very fair but a very obnoxious stage in a way I don't imagine any Wii U stage will be; I won't miss it.

Wii U has all of these stages though: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Port Town Aero Dive, Mushroom Kingdom U, Mario Circuit 8, Skyloft, Yoshi's Wooly World, Orbital Gate, Kalos Pokemon League, Wuhu Island, Pilotwings, and even Town and City could be argued to be like one of these stages too. We know from Brawl that PTAD is probably really pushing it, and I'm not counting on it being legal. Yoshi's Wooly World looks really suspect to me. The rest, however, look like a fantastic group of stages, and I really want to protect as many of these as possible going forward as I believe these stages could be a major defining aspect of the competitive metagame in a very good way.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really disagree with this. Paper Mario is not a good stage; the first form is borderline for even a transformer, and the third form is just awful (second form is great though, shame it's not the whole stage). 3ds only really has three good transformers (ignoring Ferox which doesn't "move" and hence doesn't really count as a transformer in my book): Prism Tower, Reset Bomb Forest, and Rainbow Road with the latter being obnoxious in a few ways that I don't think are a good enough reaosn to ban it but do make it worse than most of what we've seen from Wii U transformers. RBF is also clearly very fair but a very obnoxious stage in a way I don't imagine any Wii U stage will be; I won't miss it.

Wii U has all of these stages though: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege, Port Town Aero Dive, Mushroom Kingdom U, Mario Circuit 8, Skyloft, Yoshi's Wooly World, Orbital Gate, Kalos Pokemon League, Wuhu Island, Pilotwings, and even Town and City could be argued to be like one of these stages too. We know from Brawl that PTAD is probably really pushing it, and I'm not counting on it being legal. Yoshi's Wooly World looks really suspect to me. The rest, however, look like a fantastic group of stages, and I really want to protect as many of these as possible going forward as I believe these stages could be a major defining aspect of the competitive metagame in a very good way.

I'm not really sure about Mushroom Kingdom U and especially Kalos Pokemon League. I like both of the stages without hazards, but Mushroom Kingdom U has Nabbit, icicles, and sometimes spiked urchin enemies (I forgot their names) will appear in the water geysers. These hazards might be able to be worked around, but I think it will be banned in the end after testing.

Kalos Pokemon League is a definite ban in my books. It has the base form (I believe it lasts less time then the transformations), the Fire, Water, Dragon, and Steel chambers. The Fire chamber has 2 platforms but underneath them fire appears for the whole duration, and sometimes fire pillars will appear on the 2 far sides of the blast zones. The Water chamber has 2 long extensions of the floor appear that create walk offs, and occasionally water will appear from the right blast zone that flows down to the other end like Distant Planet's flooding. The Dragon chamber has Rayquaza appear. And finally, the steel chamber has two swords appear that function as walls similar to PS1's tree. On top of that become metal if you are in the middle when the circle turns into a metal pool. The water section seems to be fine, but the everything else seems a bit much if you ask me.

 

[guedes the brawler]

This is all I was saying. We should test the walk-offs. We don't need allow them in a major tournament, but we shouldn't write them off before release. How much can it hurt to test them? The problem with testing them is the 3DS version is the only 2 stages where they seem bearable are Gerudo Valley and Gaur Plains. Gerudo Valley is a pretty bad stage because of the bridge, and Gaur plains apparently has circle camping (still think GP should be allowed in at least doubles.)

i have heard someone sayign Ganondorf is really the only character who gets shut down by circle camping on Gaur.

i don't think edge camping is problem in that stage since, you know, you can hit them from below rather safely.

 

[LiteralGrill]

People already complain massively about the size of Tomodachi Life, Gaur would be a nightmare to legalize sadly.

Does anyone want to actually test out Living Room for those folks who want to test walk offs?

 

[Piford]

i have heard someone sayign Ganondorf is really the only character who gets shut down by circle camping on Gaur.

i don't think edge camping is problem in that stage since, you know, you can hit them from below rather safely.

Yeah I know, but people just immediately write off Gaur plains because of the possibility of circle camping. If there were some video actually showing it, I'd be more inclined to believe that it's possible. I think it's great in singles and all the battles i've played there have been great.

Kalos Pokemon League is a definite ban in my books. It has the base form (I believe it lasts less time then the transformations), the Fire, Water, Dragon, and Steel chambers. The Fire chamber has 2 platforms but underneath them fire appears for the whole duration, and sometimes fire pillars will appear on the 2 far sides of the blast zones. The Water chamber has 2 long extensions of the floor appear that create walk offs, and occasionally water will appear from the right blast zone that flows down to the other end like Distant Planet's flooding. The Dragon chamber has Rayquaza appear. And finally, the steel chamber has two swords appear that function as walls similar to PS1's tree. On top of that become metal if you are in the middle when the circle turns into a metal pool. The water section seems to be fine, but the everything else seems a bit much if you ask me.

We've only seen one video of Kalos Pokemon League and it didn't even show off the Dragon or Fire chambers. I wouldn't write it off immediately.

People already complain massively about the size of Tomodachi Life, Gaur would be a nightmare to legalize sadly.

Does anyone want to actually test out Living Room for those folks who want to test walk offs?

Living Room is probably one of the worst stages for walk-offs. Each stage has different blast zones, so some are easier to camp then others.

Edit:
I decided to measure all the lengths of the blast zone sizes in the 3DS version, here they are in order
Boxing Ring
Prism Tower
N's Castle
Gerudo Valley
Gaur Plains
Paper Mario (T1)
Living Room
Green Hill Zone
Distant Planet
Golden Plains
Dream Land
Flatzone 2
These are rough estimates and some of them were really close.

 

[Deleted member]

We've only seen one video of Kalos Pokemon League and it didn't even show off the Dragon or Fire chambers. I wouldn't write it off immediately.

The fire underneath the platforms clearly provide a constant threat of damage, and the side fire pillars can prevent gimps/recovering players, even if it does appear for only a little while.

Rayquaza does interfere with the stage.

It appears that the water transformation lasted for about 30 seconds, but it is more than that since the video starts in that section. The neutral section only is about 20 seconds. Go to 1:03 and look at the center circle on the stage, you can turn metal there. Considering that PS1's tree, rock pillar, and windmill aren't that liked at all for camping/teching purposes, I doubt the blades will go unnoticed in a match.

Walk offs on the water stage will always be a camping problem (you can always jump over the water if you camp on the left) as it forces stall or a rushed approach that results in a quick death for the camper or aggressor and it removes the offstage game entirely. Honestly all the transformations are extremely gimmicky and have hazards that are a constant threat. At least Halberd's hazards were barely there and were easily dodged because they were slow and very telegraphed. I wouldn't hold on to hope for this stage.

 

[Piford]

The fire underneath the platforms clearly provide a constant threat of damage, and the side fire pillars can prevent gimps/recovering players, even if it does appear for only a little while.

Rayquaza does interfere with the stage.

It appears that the water transformation lasted for about 30 seconds, but it is more than that since the video starts in that section. The neutral section only is about 20 seconds. Go to 1:03 and look at the center circle on the stage, you can turn metal there. Considering that PS1's tree, rock pillar, and windmill aren't that liked at all for camping/teching purposes, I doubt the blades will go unnoticed in a match.

Walk offs on the water stage will always be a camping problem (you can always jump over the water if you camp on the left) as it forces stall or a rushed approach that results in a quick death for the camper or aggressor and it removes the offstage game entirely. Honestly all the transformations are extremely gimmicky and have hazards that are a constant threat. At least Halberd's hazards were barely there and were easily dodged because they were slow and very telegraphed. I wouldn't hold on to hope for this stage.

We just know those exist not how they actually work in battle. I did analyze this video a while back. For Rayquaza, I wouldn't be so sure that he is actually in the stage normally. The pokeball pokemon always appear in the background, so it's odd that they'd disappear. Also if there was a stage boss, why would they put it in the dragon room, and not the champion room. I think Rayquaza might be for event mode or one of the other side modes, and just uses the dragon chamber for theming. Of course, this is just a theory and would easily be disproven with actual footage. As for camping on the swords, since they do damage, it seems kinda risky to camp near them.
Edit: GameXplain said they didn't see Rayquaza.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

What about other stages? With higher knockback and faster falling speeds, do you think Skyworld still have the caves of life? What about Wooly World? Should we consider Miiverse as an alternate Battlefield?

 

[Piford]

What about other stages? With higher knockback and faster falling speeds, do you think Skyworld still have the caves of life? What about Wooly World? Should we consider Miiverse as an alternate Battlefield?

Skyworld will likely still have caves of life problems. Miiverse could be the same as battlefield if the proportions are the same and they have the same blast zones. Wooly World seems fine. We really need the actual game, or at least more footage, to see.

 

[The_Altrox]

I hate Skyworld, not only for the cave of life, but destructible edges. Certain characters like Little Mac have a crappy enough time recovering to begin with.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

That's the catch. We should test them before major tournaments because a lot of people will just ignore it if someone says "Hey, Walkoffs are legit. Why don't we play them?" We should test them before the Wii U version comes out.

At the risk of being a Debbie Downer, I honestly would not be surprised if experimental matches conducted outside a tournament were disregarded because...they weren't in a tournament. Which presents a Catch-22.

This is my pessimism showing through mostly.

 

[guedes the brawler]

At the risk of being a Debbie Downer, I honestly would not be surprised if experimental matches conducted outside a tournament were disregarded because...they weren't in a tournament. Which presents a Catch-22.

This is my pessimism showing through mostly.

yeah, i feel like most TOs would simply disregard these stages due to experiences with previous games...

 

[LiteralGrill]

At the risk of being a Debbie Downer, I honestly would not be surprised if experimental matches conducted outside a tournament were disregarded because...they weren't in a tournament. Which presents a Catch-22.

This is my pessimism showing through mostly.

No, this is VERY much a truth. This is why I went to such lengths to previously test out the other stages, so we had real proof they were not a problem (or were) before moving on.

If people want a walk off tournament, I can host a tournament with a few walkoffs alongside a stage or two I want to test. I want to make sure we'll have some guaranteed entry though as most of the stages we really have left on the plate to look at are stage most people definitely do not think have a real shot.

Boxing Ring
Prism Tower
N's Castle
Gerudo Valley
Gaur Plains
Paper Mario (T1)
Living Room
Green Hill Zone
Distant Planet
Golden Plains
Dream Land
Flatzone 2
These are rough estimates and some of them were really close.

Well I crossed out anything where the walkoff was only temporary, stages that had other issues (checkpoint camping, the coins giving you special stuff, etc.), the stages that were not pure walkoffs (since we wanna test how those will work for Wii U) and the stages where the blast zones were just much too close.

This leaves us with only Living Room and Boxing Ring. Boxing Ring has other issues too, which kinda make Living Room the only choice. It and Coliseum aren't too horribly different in size (yeah Living Room is probably a bit bigger but still) so it's probably the best chance there is to test these.

The stages on my list for singles testing would include

Tortimer's Island (basically by popular request, the stage is kinda big and would do better in doubles)
Unova Pokemon League (this stage is so borderline for legality in a very open ruleset)
Gaur Plains (also by popular request basically)
3D Land (by popular request)
A Walk Off Stage (Probably Living Room, strictly to test out walk offs)

The other stages while some people wanted them just aren't going to make it. So far the reddit community has done a lot and accepted more stages then I really expected in all honesty, but even then a lot of them aren't getting played on much. I mean I'm all for larger stagelists but I'm not sure I want to add any other stages if they actually cause legitimate issues when I have to fight to keep the few I have legal every week.

However I love to test things and get data. So if people think that those stages deserve a shot, I'll do it.

 

[Piford]

No, this is VERY much a truth. This is why I went to such lengths to previously test out the other stages, so we had real proof they were not a problem (or were) before moving on.

If people want a walk off tournament, I can host a tournament with a few walkoffs alongside a stage or two I want to test. I want to make sure we'll have some guaranteed entry though as most of the stages we really have left on the plate to look at are stage most people definitely do not think have a real shot.



Well I crossed out anything where the walkoff was only temporary, stages that had other issues (checkpoint camping, the coins giving you special stuff, etc.), the stages that were not pure walkoffs (since we wanna test how those will work for Wii U) and the stages where the blast zones were just much too close.

This leaves us with only Living Room and Boxing Ring. Boxing Ring has other issues too, which kinda make Living Room the only choice. It and Coliseum aren't too horribly different in size (yeah Living Room is probably a bit bigger but still) so it's probably the best chance there is to test these.

The stages on my list for singles testing would include

Tortimer's Island (basically by popular request, the stage is kinda big and would do better in doubles)
Unova Pokemon League (this stage is so borderline for legality in a very open ruleset)
Gaur Plains (also by popular request basically)
3D Land (by popular request)
A Walk Off Stage (Probably Living Room, strictly to test out walk offs)

The other stages while some people wanted them just aren't going to make it. So far the reddit community has done a lot and accepted more stages then I really expected in all honesty, but even then a lot of them aren't getting played on much. I mean I'm all for larger stagelists but I'm not sure I want to add any other stages if they actually cause legitimate issues when I have to fight to keep the few I have legal every week.

However I love to test things and get data. So if people think that those stages deserve a shot, I'll do it.

Living Room can easily 0-death Every single Character (Tested with Link, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and King DeDeDe). I would test Boxing Ring over it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Living Room can easily 0-death Every single Character (Tested with Link, Jigglypuff, Pikachu, and King DeDeDe). I would test Boxing Ring over it.

I assume you mean the falling blocks can chain a bunch of hits into death?

If I had the patience to watch the screen for hours on end I may be interested in seeing if there was a pattern to them, but frankly I'm just interested at when they kill Mario on the ground as per my standard. <.<

 

[Piford]

I assume you mean the falling blocks can chain a bunch of hits into death?

If I had the patience to watch the screen for hours on end I may be interested in seeing if there was a pattern to them, but frankly I'm just interested at when they kill Mario on the ground as per my standard. <.<

Yeah. Thats was using no vectoring and I believe every single time it was the very tall one, or the semi tall one for Jiggs and Pikachu. I'd say probably only the tallest would kill Mario at 0%, but it'd likely be pretty low percents for the other formations.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Yeah. Thats was using no vectoring and I believe every single time it was the very tall one, or the semi tall one for Jiggs and Pikachu. I'd say probably only the tallest would kill Mario at 0%, but it'd likely be pretty low percents for the other formations.

The different sizes have different knockback amounts?

**** this, I'm putting off the Living Room research thread until later. Y'all getting Balloon Fight or something next IDK.

 

[Piford]

The different sizes have different knockback amounts?

**** this, I'm putting off the Living Room research thread until later. Y'all getting Balloon Fight or something next IDK.

I was referring to the size of the towers, as the taller towers usually hit you more and higher up. Also Balloon Fight seems like a waste of effort, something like Spirit Train would be much better.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I was referring to the size of the towers, as the taller towers usually hit you more and higher up. Also Balloon Fight seems like a waste of effort, something like Spirit Train would be much better.

Congratulations on being the first to make a request.

*confetti*

I clearly still don't fully understand Living Room's mechanics so I'll probably look into it a bit on my own time.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I agree Spirit Trains would be a better choice first.

I even considered Gerudo Valley though @ Piford as the boss characters there could even force someone out of their camping position which is kind of unique, but the bridge in the middle sticks too. 3D Land was a stage people wanted to try, but it does scroll and is a tad fast at times. Mushroomy Kingdom I guess could be tested but I bet it has the same problems as before.

 

[Piford]

I agree Spirit Trains would be a better choice first.

I even considered Gerudo Valley though @ Piford as the boss characters there could even force someone out of their camping position which is kind of unique, but the bridge in the middle sticks too. 3D Land was a stage people wanted to try, but it does scroll and is a tad fast at times. Mushroomy Kingdom I guess could be tested but I bet it has the same problems as before.

I don't think really 3D Land scrolls too fast. I'm still able to fight even when using Robin and Ganondorf in the scrolling section. Mushroomy Kingdom has like caves of death all the way through; its really hard to get a kill.

 

[guedes the brawler]

I agree Spirit Trains would be a better choice first.

I even considered Gerudo Valley though @ Piford as the boss characters there could even force someone out of their camping position which is kind of unique, but the bridge in the middle sticks too. 3D Land was a stage people wanted to try, but it does scroll and is a tad fast at times. Mushroomy Kingdom I guess could be tested but I bet it has the same problems as before.

my experience with all-star of all things say that the caves of life at least are a big problem.

I don't think really 3D Land scrolls too fast. I'm still able to fight even when using Robin and Ganondorf in the scrolling section. Mushroomy Kingdom has like caves of death all the way through; its really hard to get a kill.

yeah, 3D land really doesn't scroll too fast, but i tihnk we will have an easier time getting people to play on Gaur Plains than that. and it's not goign to be easy to make Gaur Plains legal.

 

[T0MMY]

As a long-time TO I've had to face some difficult questions about Stages. All my competitors want a "fair" match, but individually they are trying to pull out-of-game politics to get more advantage over their opponents (who can blame them trying to win any way they can?). Turning to find some wisdom on the topic I come to Smashboards, but coming here has only worsened the problem: Why are "legal" stages based on how much people complain about them being "unfair" for characters?
You all will be left with nothing to play on.

I'm not ever going to get into a debate about legal stages, it's a losing battle. Instead I am going to focus on the SYSTEM itself, ground myself in the Competitive Principles which drive a Competitive Arena. Then and only then will I have a way for ALL my attendees to be able to play on ALL the stages in a FAIR match.

If anyone is interested how I am going to pull this off, I implore you to PM me with questions/comments or follow my writings on Competition Philosophia (the love of wisdom regarding Competition, versus "casual play").
I believe logic and reason will play a strong role in how this game is ruled, as these have been my tools to aid in rule-development the past decade of work I've put in.

 

[guedes the brawler]

Gamexplain just posted the gamer video... it actually seems fine? it's a pity it's random...

 

[SaltyKracka]

A meaningless waste of hot air.

Dude, get over it. The fact of the matter is that the 3DS just doesn't have that many decent stages.

We'll have to see about the WiiU version (since that's going to be the version all the tournaments are going to be held on anyways), but the stage selection holds promise.

 

[Piford]

New Footage!

I believe this is the first time seeing the starting line of Mario Circuit.
The real great thing is we FINALLY see video of the dragon chamber, and there no Rayquaza! The dragon chamber looks fine, the stage hazard didn't seem to do much (18%) and its extremely telegraphed.

 

[SonicZeroX]

New Footage!

I believe this is the first time seeing the starting line of Mario Circuit.
The real great thing is we FINALLY see video of the dragon chamber, and there no Rayquaza! The dragon chamber looks fine, the stage hazard didn't seem to do much (18%) and its extremely telegraphed.

On the other hand, the rising platforms can kill people unlike Prism Tower.

Hopefully the rising platforms in town and city don't kill.

 

[The_Altrox]

On the other hand, the rising platforms can kill people unlike Prism Tower.

Hopefully the rising platforms in town and city don't kill.

That would make TaC counterpick imo. Same with the stage in that vid at most.

 

[Piford]

On the other hand, the rising platforms can kill people unlike Prism Tower.

Hopefully the rising platforms in town and city don't kill.

Assuming that it kills 100% of the time (like its not a bug or something), I don't think that its a huge deal. Everything on the stage is timed, and the platforms start out moving kinda slowly. The only thing I'd worry about is grabbing your opponent to kill both of you, but if you can't break from the grab in that length of time, you were probably already at kill %. Its very risky for the grabber, as you might escape last second and then he would die.

That would make TaC counterpick imo. Same with the stage in that vid at most.

How would this happening on town and city drastically alter the matchup chart for the stage? If it truly didn't give any characters an advantage before, why would the platform killing someone if they didn't get off in time give some characters a huge advantage/disadvantage now?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

No, this is VERY much a truth. This is why I went to such lengths to previously test out the other stages, so we had real proof they were not a problem (or were) before moving on.

If people want a walk off tournament, I can host a tournament with a few walkoffs alongside a stage or two I want to test. I want to make sure we'll have some guaranteed entry though as most of the stages we really have left on the plate to look at are stage most people definitely do not think have a real shot.



Well I crossed out anything where the walkoff was only temporary, stages that had other issues (checkpoint camping, the coins giving you special stuff, etc.), the stages that were not pure walkoffs (since we wanna test how those will work for Wii U) and the stages where the blast zones were just much too close.

This leaves us with only Living Room and Boxing Ring. Boxing Ring has other issues too, which kinda make Living Room the only choice. It and Coliseum aren't too horribly different in size (yeah Living Room is probably a bit bigger but still) so it's probably the best chance there is to test these.

The stages on my list for singles testing would include

Tortimer's Island (basically by popular request, the stage is kinda big and would do better in doubles)
Unova Pokemon League (this stage is so borderline for legality in a very open ruleset)
Gaur Plains (also by popular request basically)
3D Land (by popular request)
A Walk Off Stage (Probably Living Room, strictly to test out walk offs)

The other stages while some people wanted them just aren't going to make it. So far the reddit community has done a lot and accepted more stages then I really expected in all honesty, but even then a lot of them aren't getting played on much. I mean I'm all for larger stagelists but I'm not sure I want to add any other stages if they actually cause legitimate issues when I have to fight to keep the few I have legal every week.

However I love to test things and get data. So if people think that those stages deserve a shot, I'll do it.

The main issue with Boxing Ring (Aside from the walkoffs) is the lighting camp. Which forces players to fight outside the ring.
Near the walkoffs. Which is exactly what we want to test. Come on. Boxing Ring is the best stage to test the risk/reward ratio of walkoff camping since it is its stage mechanic.

 

[allshort17]

From the videos presented, Mario Circuit looks like an amazing stage. It's neat how each layout blocks a killing zone, whether it be the bottom, top, or a side. This will ultimately benefit those with kill options that launch horizontally, like Ganondorf, because there will always be an option to kill off at least one side. A stage with temporary vertical walls is nice because it allows for higher combo potential, but doesn't create as much as a problem because the walls will eventually go away. The main platform is static, unlike Delfino, and the transformations are brief. Essentially, this stage behaves like Pokemon Stadium with a moving background. Cars are easily telegraphed, transformations leave obvious safe zones, and their is plenty of space to weave around the racers, as was demonstrated by the Bowser in the video. This stage will benefit those who can effectively establish stage control through zoning or projectiles, such as DHD and Marth, as they can claim the most beneficial section of each transformation. If certain wall combos or caves of life are an issue, the cars slightly negate the problem as they can disrupt both strategies.

+Has neutral and constant main stage
+Walls open up possibility for combos
+The stage layout benefits those with horizontal kill options
+Cars can be used to disrupt polarizing strategies present by the track
+Hazards are telegraphed and easy to avoid
-Temporary caves of life and I believe a walk-off on one transformation
-Cars slightly disruptive at starting line section

Right now, the stage is looking more than viable.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

I'm VERY pleased with how Mario Circuit 8 looks. Not so sure about Kalos league. Every time we see it there's another hazard to add to the list.

 

[Starbound]

Mario Circuit 8 looks amazing. It seems that my previous statement of being a better Rainbow Road was accurate. Easily counterpick.

Kalos League does have me concerned because 18% from a hazard is a lot. That being said, it is telegraphed way before it actually strikes.