Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[The_Altrox]

Norfair was a legal counter pick in brawl, but was banned because of ledge stalling. With the new ledge mechanics, this stage could easily be legal.

I love Norfair, but I think it has a few too many hazards to be counuterpick. The walls of lava and rising lava are fine, but I think the lava spray is too much.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Edit: Ack, never was one for the Brawl scene. Just looked up Norfair technics. I gotta remember to look up these old stages.

The lava can be dodged right? Honestly seems more like an annoyance than a real hazard. It doesn't benefit anyone since they both have to avoid it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Edit: Ack, never was one for the Brawl scene. Just looked up Norfair technics. I gotta remember to look up these old stages.

The lava can be dodged right? Honestly seems more like an annoyance than a real hazard. It doesn't benefit anyone since they both have to avoid it.

The lava on Norfair comes in 3 flavors. Vanilla, chocolate, and strawberry. You have the lava sprays from the background, a wall of lava that comes in from either side and covers half the stage, and the giant lava wave from the background that causes the safety capsule thing to appear. IIRC only the lava wall from the side can't be shielded/spotdodged and that's just because it sticks around for a while.

And there's also lava rising from the bottom a la Brinstar, forgot about that.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Wait since when was the issue with Congo 64 the barrel? To my understanding it was always the sloped grounds and circle camping, the former being reflected by YI B and the latter not really being an issue anymore (probably) due to the bigger scaling of characters to stages than 64 and Melee.

Thoughts on that?

 

[guedes the brawler]

If the Miiverse stage proves to be as different from BF as the Pillar Omegas are from FD (or less), should we bunch then together?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

It is obvious that the Wii U edition is more tourney-friendly than the 3DS version and, considering the number of stages, I decided to make a small(?) analysis of which ones should be on tourneys:

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only due to size)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Size unknown, so we can't assume it's only for Doubles)
- Miiverse (once released, whether or not we should consider this as Battlefield is unknown)​

LEGAL (Unknown)

- Lylat Cruise (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset)​

COUNTER-PICK

- Windy Hill Zone
- All Omega Stages (due to differences with original FD, could be banned on this stage list and have a second "Omega Random" stage list)
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Delfino Plaza (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Luigi's Mansion (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Jungle Hijinxs
- Gamer
- Skyloft
- Norfair (was a counter in Brawl)
- Halberd (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset, but does have Double Cannon)
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokemon League (possible counter)
- Pokemon Stadium 2 (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Port Town Aero Dive (was a counter in Brawl)
- Mario Kart 8's Mario Circuit (concept-wise, it's very similar to Port Town)
- Castle Siege (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset, but does have a walk-off section at stage 2)
- Skyworld
- Garden of Hope (most likely for Doubles only due to size, but we never know!)
- Wrecking Crew
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy
- Mario Circuit (Brawl)
- Woolly World
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- 75 m
- Temple
- Bridge of Eldin
- Pyrosphere (Thank you, Ridley!)
- Great Cave Offensive
- Onett
- Coliseum
- Palutena's Temple
- Boxing Ring
- Gaur Plain (Thank you, Metal Face!)
- Wii Fit Studio
- Wily Castle (Thank you, Yellow Devil!)
- Pac-Land​

Time to talk about those questionnables

 

[Zwzchow]

@LunarDistortion @ The Stoopid Unikorn
Pilotwings is easily neutral

It has little to no hazards aside from the ships.
Other than the tilting of the planes and the force to switch planes which might screw up combos and stuff

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@LunarDistortion
Pilotwings is easily neutral

It has little to no hazards aside from the ships.
Other than the tilting of the planes and the force to switch planes which might screw up combos and stuff

It also got the bridge, which may be short, but has a lot of knockback and KO potential....... I think it's a counter, at best.

 

[Zwzchow]

It also got the bridge, which may be short, but has a lot of knockback and KO potential....... I think it's a counter, at best.

wait what I have never heard of the bridge being a hazard.

Do you have a vid/gif to show?

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

wait what I have never heard of the bridge being a hazard.

Do you have a vid/gif to show?

I haven't seen any vid, but SmashWiki's page on this stage says it, so I assumed

 

[Piford]

It also got the bridge, which may be short, but has a lot of knockback and KO potential....... I think it's a counter, at best.

You can't really determine if a stage would be a counter pick until playing on it because you don't know of it heavily favors one character yet. Having the bridge be a hazard doesn't seem to have the stage favor some characters over another.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

You can't really determine if a stage would be a counter pick until playing on it because you don't know of it heavily favors one character yet. Having the bridge be a hazard doesn't seem to have the stage favor some characters over another.

Then I guess its legality remains questionnable, for now.... (unless someone who tried it at E3 or Smash-fest has something to say about it)

 

[Amiibo Doctor]

Never even imagined building a ruleset before, this is from the mind of a ruleset n00b.
Why not go with best of 3 with 2 stocks each? You can have the 3 starters, BF FD and Yoshi's Island, and then afterwards Jungle Japes and Ferox are tiebreakers.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Never even imagined building a ruleset before, this is from the mind of a ruleset n00b.
Why not go with best of 3 with 2 stocks each? You can have the 3 starters, BF FD and Yoshi's Island, and then afterwards Jungle Japes and Ferox are tiebreakers.

We ain't talking about an entire ruleset, only the tourney-legal stages of the Wii U version

 

[LiteralGrill]

We ain't talking about an entire ruleset, only the tourney-legal stages of the Wii U version

Hey, 3DS is here too ya know.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hey, 3DS is here too ya know.

We all know that once the Wii U version is released, it's going to be the principal version used in tourneys (The 3DS version may appear at some tourneys, but the Wii U will clearly be used a lot more than the 3DS version)

 

[Piford]

Never even imagined building a ruleset before, this is from the mind of a ruleset n00b.
Why not go with best of 3 with 2 stocks each? You can have the 3 starters, BF FD and Yoshi's Island, and then afterwards Jungle Japes and Ferox are tiebreakers.

If you want to talk about rulesets, please go here. If you want to talk about how to choose stages, please go here. This thread is for analyzing how each stage can be used competitively.

As for the stages you mentioned, BF, FD, and YI are the 3 most common starters, Ferox is a common counterpick, and Japes is near universally banned.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

We all know that once the Wii U version is released, it's going to be the principal version used in tourneys (The 3DS version may appear at some tourneys, but the Wii U will clearly be used a lot more than the 3DS version)

Different niches, bro. The niche of the 3DS is being able to have larger scale tournaments with simultaneous matches, which can't be easily replicated in the Wii U version and lets people use different rulesets.

 

[Thinkaman]

Norfair was a legal counter pick in brawl, but was banned because of ledge stalling. With the new ledge mechanics, this stage could easily be legal.

This!

Also, in Brawl the lava wall on Norfair can be shielded or spotdodged. It can also be jumped over, or avoided with ledge invincibility.

 

[san.]

Norfair was banned because of odd air camping strategies with the likes of Wario and Sonic that was argued to be similar to circle camping. Didn't really agree with that, though.

 

[Thinkaman]

Norfair was banned because of odd air camping strategies with the likes of Wario and Sonic that was argued to be similar to circle camping. Didn't really agree with that, though.

Right, but ledges were absolutely a large component of this and how it was perceived.

 

[Piford]

Norfair was banned because of odd air camping strategies with the likes of Wario and Sonic that was argued to be similar to circle camping. Didn't really agree with that, though.

But it's harder to air camp in Smash 4 than in brawl because of the faster fall speeds. Plus the lava helps to stop camping.

 

[Thinkaman]

I am worried that WiiU has so many (good) stages, that reasonable ones on the edge like Norfair will be pressured out.

 

[san.]

Indeed, I have no problems with Norfair. I vaguely recall @ Thinkaman arguing for its legitimacy back in the day, or at least I think so.

 

[Thinkaman]

Indeed, I have no problems with Norfair. I vaguely recall @ Thinkaman arguing for its legitimacy back in the day, or at least I think so.

The Jigglypuff main wanting Norfair legal? Surely you must be joking sir!

I would have counter-picked it every set. *cries*

Edit: The only tourney match I think I ever lost on Norfair was to Bwett's Yoshi.

 

[Piford]

I am worried that WiiU has so many (good) stages, that reasonable ones on the edge like Norfair will be pressured out.

Yeah, people might think since we have so many good stages, that we could be stricter in determining legality. This isn't really the case, as the more stages allow for more balance. If I recall correctly, because so many arguably legal stages were banned in brawl because Meta Knight was too OP, it made the Ice Climbers also significantly more powerful than the rest of the cast, instead of making Meta Knight worse. We need to avoid a situation like that this time.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah, people might think since we have so many good stages, that we could be stricter in determining legality. This isn't really the case, as the more stages allow for more balance. If I recall correctly, because so many arguably legal stages were banned in brawl because Meta Knight was too OP, it made the Ice Climbers also significantly more powerful than the rest of the cast, instead of making Meta Knight worse. We need to avoid a situation like that this time.

So far, no one's OP, so problem essentially solved.

But still, I agree.

More legal stages = more balance = more situation = less deception becuase of a smaller number of stages

Simple math

 

[Piford]

So far, no one's OP, so problem essentially solved.

But still, I agree.

More legal stages = more balance = more situation = less deception becuase of a smaller number of stages

Simple math

I know no ones OP yet, and having a large number of stages should stop that from ever happening. We don't want people to go ban crazy where the only stages that end up being legal are (and this is a nearly impossible situation thats a major exaggeration) Final Destination, Walled Final Destination, and Big Final Destination.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I know no ones OP yet, and having a large number of stages should stop that from ever happening. We don't want people to go ban crazy where the only stages that end up being legal are (and this is a nearly impossible situation thats a major exaggeration) Final Destination, Walled Final Destination, and Big Final Destination.

Since you'd like a large number of stages let's about this list I came up with.

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only due to size)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Size unknown, so we can't assume it's only for Doubles)
- Miiverse (once released, whether or not we should consider this as Battlefield is unknown)​

LEGAL (Unknown)

- Lylat Cruise (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset)​

COUNTER-PICK

- Windy Hill Zone
- All Omega Stages (due to differences with original FD, could be banned on this stage list and have a second "Omega Random" stage list)
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Delfino Plaza (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Luigi's Mansion (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Jungle Hijinxs
- Gamer
- Skyloft
- Norfair (was a counter in Brawl)
- Halberd (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset, but does have Double Cannon)
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokemon League (possible counter)
- Pokemon Stadium 2 (was a counter in Brawl in certain rulesets)
- Port Town Aero Dive (was a counter in Brawl)
- Mario Kart 8's Mario Circuit (concept-wise, it's very similar to Port Town)
- Castle Siege (was either a starter or a counter in Brawl, depending on ruleset, but does have a walk-off section at stage 2)
- Skyworld
- Garden of Hope (most likely for Doubles only due to size, but we never know!)
- Wrecking Crew
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy
- Mario Circuit (Brawl)
- Woolly World
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- 75 m
- Temple
- Bridge of Eldin
- Pyrosphere (Thank you, Ridley!)
- Great Cave Offensive
- Onett
- Coliseum
- Palutena's Temple
- Boxing Ring
- Gaur Plain (Thank you, Metal Face!)
- Wii Fit Studio
- Wily Castle (Thank you, Yellow Devil!)
- Pac-Land​

​

 

[Piford]

Since you'd like a large number of stages let's about this list I came up with.

​

Yeah I saw it. I think Walk-offs deserve re-evaluation, so I'd at least put Coliseum under legal, because it can't ruin the entire game to have one permanent walk-off legal. Also I think Wooly Word should be legal as odd platform placement doesn't seem like a legitimate reason to ban.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yeah I saw it. I think Walk-offs deserve re-evaluation, so I'd at least put Coliseum under legal, because it can't ruin the entire game to have one permanent walk-off legal. Also I think Wooly Word should be legal as odd platform placement doesn't seem like a legitimate reason to ban.

Not sure about permanent walk-offs, they do remove the ability to Meteor Smash. And Woolly World, so far, is a walk-off 66% of the time as well.

 

[Piford]

Not sure about permanent walk-offs, they do remove the ability to Meteor Smash. And Woolly World, so far, is a walk-off 66% of the time as well.

Well we've only see like 1 minute of woolly world.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Well we've only see like 1 minute of woolly world.

One minute seems enough for me!

 

[Piford]

One minute seems enough for me!

Also, the walk-offs only accounted for like 45% of the video. Also not being able to be meteor smashed would be a good reason to counter pick a stage thats a walk-off if your character either doesn't have a meteor smash or is extremely susceptible to it.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Also, the walk-offs only accounted for like 45% of the video. Also not being able to be meteor smashed would be a good reason to counter pick a stage thats a walk-off if your character either doesn't have a meteor smash or is extremely susceptible to it.

I guess so.....

The removal of chaingrabs could legalize walk-offs, since they were pretty much the one thing that banned them

 

[Piford]

I guess so.....

The removal of chaingrabs could legalize walk-offs, since they were pretty much the one thing that banned them

Yep, they were legal at the start of brawl, and were picked off one by one thanks to DeDeDe.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Yep, they were legal at the start of brawl, and were picked off one by one thanks to DeDeDe.

Not to mention

So, walk-off is no longer an argument for stage legality, but, since they are walk-offs and therefore, non-neutral, they should be counters, at best

UPDATED LIST: Walk-offs should be counters due to the removal of chaingrabs. I also included more counters and separated Omega forms into a separate stage list.

Spoiler

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Doubles Only?)
- Lylat Cruise
- Miiverse (whether or not we should consider this as Battlefield is unknown)​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Island
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8)
- Luigi's Mansion
- Woolly World
- Gamer
- Skyloft
- Coliseum
- Castle Siege
- Halberd
- Norfair
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Wii Fit Studio
- Boxing Ring
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Windy Hill Zone
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl)
- Mario Galaxy
- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- Jungle Hijinxs
- Bridge of Eldin
- Skyworld
- Onett
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokemon League
- Garden of Hope
- Wrecking Crew
​

BANNED

- 75 m
- Temple
- Pyrosphere (Thank you, Ridley!)
- Great Cave Offensive
- Palutena's Temple
- Gaur Plain (Thank you, Metal Face!)
- Wily Castle (Thank you, Yellow Devil!)
- Pac-Land
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

Anything else?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Weren't the Ice Climbers not really top tier in the beginning? Judging from your conversation, it sounds like they were able to develop into top tier thanks in part to this stage list.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Weren't the Ice Climbers not really top tier in the beginning? Judging from your conversation, it sounds like they were able to develop into top tier thanks in part to this stage list.

Mostly chaingrab stuff. Besides, they are 2nd on Brawl's tier list and S tier in Melee

 

[Piford]

Weren't the Ice Climbers not really top tier in the beginning? Judging from your conversation, it sounds like they were able to develop into top tier thanks in part to this stage list.

They were considered good, but not amazing. They were fluctuating between upper mid and high tier. The removal of stages like Brinstar, Delphino, and Frigate Opheron basically got rid of their worst stages, and made most of their best stages starters