Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Davis-Lightheart]

Honestly; Wrecking Crew looks like it has potential. It's a stage that the players control the layout thanks to all the destructible background objects. The bombs don't even seem to hurt; and the collapsing floor doesn't either. Of course, it needs more experimenting, but this could be a great stage where stage advantage is decided by the players attacking the stage or throwing each other into it.

From what I know of the original wrecking Crew; the barrels are indestructible and that seems to apply here from the footage we see. (Aside from the floor collapsing on them.) Their only purpose are for platforms from the look of it.

 

[SonicZeroX]

I don't like how Mario Circuit can sometime pass by the stage and prevent people from getting knocked out in that direction. I know it's technically not random but it will probably feel pretty random in the middle of a battle. Also that part where the ceiling gets blocked turning everything into a cave of life...

Kalos actually doesn't look to bad because the water doesn't push very hard or last that long, and the swords don't seem to hurt that much, but we've yet to see Rayquaza and I have a feeling he'll have Boss-like disruptiveness

Wooly world is indeed just "weird". It's like half of the time walk off half of the time not, but other than that there's no hazards?

Wrecking crew kinda looks a lot like Tomodachi life actually. Thankfully the collapsing stage does not do any damage. There are also bombs and barrels but the bomb explosion radius looks tiny. The main problem though is they intercept attacks and mess with things like Captain Falcon's side B. Seems more like Luigi's mansion in that regard.

Orbital looks like Poke Floats except a lot less disruptive. Not really feeling the parts where the stage just blows up under your feet though. Man this stage is cool though.

Great cave actually looks pretty fun Doesn't really have cave of life problems like other big stages, but yeah it's obviously too big and I would never want to fight someone like Sonic there oh lawd.

Jungle Hijinx looks super cool as a fun stage but not only is there circle camping problems, there are just sooo many hazards.

 

[Gunla]

The only iffy part of Kalos we have seen is the water section, which had bridges that slowly dragged off. While it may not be too big of an issue for some fighters, I think it definitely deserves a look.

Wrecking Crew's "hazards" seem like they'll interfere with other characters. I'm leaning on a no at the moment.

Mario Circuit's also pretty iffy in my opinion on that one section where the ceiling is solid and the only way to get KO'd is the other directions.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Here we have another look at Windy Hill.

In this video, we get a look at some stages that don't have full videos yet. Garden of Hope shows up at 5:02 And we learn that crabby isn't a boss, just a quick hazard with a safe zone to the far right of the screen. Now, whether he is on a timer or not could make judging this stage more difficult.

 

[SonicZeroX]

They also have Wuhu Island, which is looking pretty good. Some of the landing locations have walkoffs but they don't last very long and there's no hazards.

 

[Piford]

Here we have another look at Windy Hill.

This stage looks great. it doesn't seem too big and I doubt the windmill will cause problems since it carries campers into the blastzone.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

They also have Wuhu Island, which is looking pretty good. Some of the landing locations have walkoffs but they don't last very long and there's no hazards.

The one thing about Wuhu that is really disappointing me though is that swimming is back.

Also, IGN gives a more in-depth look at the stage builder.

http://www.ign.com/videos/2014/10/24/super-smash-bros-for-wii-us-map-creation-tool

Edit: It's kind of sketchy if you can edit blastzones, but in the beginning of the video you can see there is an option to pick between small medium and large stages. I assume this includes blastzones.

 

[Untouch]

Doesn't look like blast zone is customizable, that's just showing you where it is.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

We get another look at these stages from Gamesradar.

While Mom gives you ample time to avoid her gaze, it seems like Gamer's layout is randomized. With on transformation having a cave of life. Take that as you will.

Spoiler

Also, from the wrecking crew footage, the bombs seem to have no hurtbox. Peach detonates one while standing practically on top of it, and isn't harmed.

Edit: From Neogaf about Kalos.

I actually encountered this stage when playing Classic mode at last night's event, and the real answer it's way weirder than you'd think: the middle circle in the stage bubbles up with this molten metal looking stuff, and anyone who touches it becomes a metal version of their character temporarily! (Which was kind of funny to me, because I was already fighting against a metal Greninja. )

Anyways - I don't actually remember the blades edges knocking me back in my time on that stage, but maybe I just never touched it!

 

[Piford]

I decided to do an analysis of Kalos based off what we've seen.
The stage likely starts off in the main room and will likely choose randomly between the 4 members as you could in Pokemon X.
The main rom has two platforms on either side, similar to pokemon stadium, and appears between every room.
The transition phase is flat like Final Destination
The pokemon in the back do not attack the players and act similarly to the animals in Smashville
Each Room last about 30 seconds
The transition is about 3 seconds
The main room last about 15 seconds
Floor pattern and background can determine what room you enter
The water room has Two platforms and too ramps that act as walk-offs. Water flows through here once and lasts 3 seconds, can carry players to blastzone if they don't jump. Walk-offs can KO when leaving.
The Fire room has a fire hazard that appears at the start, and two pillars that are there constantly and deal damage.
The Steel room has two swords that fall once. The swords act similarly to the fire pillars. They deal 4% and have small knockback. Apparently there is a way to turn metal on the stage according to the post above.
The Dragon room has Rayquaza attack, in patterns that mimic his attacks in SSE.
After all 4 rooms are complete, the stage will most likely move to the champion's room, before starting the cycle over again.
Edit:
I'd like to add a couple things
The swords don't always fall the same distance.
Rayquaza can't really do much as he only has 30 seconds, I expect him to fly above the screen and attack once. Of course this is assuming theres a champion room and this room last the same length as the others.
There should be 1:15 of the main room per loop and 27 seconds of the transition stage.
If the Liquid Metal is true, its actually could be a cool reward for having stage control. Either you can become metal or you can force your opponent to become metal depending on what percents each of you are at.

 

[Captain Norris]

Will Big Battlefield be made legal then, I assume? Starter possibly?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

I guess that seals Kalos' fate.

Why? Turning metal isn't even clearly an advantage (metal characters are super free off-stage); why would a feature like that possibly be ban-worthy?

 

[Makaronileo]

Is Hijink jungle a 8 player stage, cuz it is huge.

 

[Piford]

Will Big Battlefield be made legal then, I assume? Starter possibly?

I'd say Legal until its proven that its too big to use, then its only for 2v2, 3v3, or 4v4 if those are a thing.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Why? Turning metal isn't even clearly an advantage (metal characters are super free off-stage); why would a feature like that possibly be ban-worthy?

Eh; in hindsight. I was rushing to conclusions there. Call it a weakness. Embarrass

Anyways. Here's palutena's temple in 8 player for anyone interested in making rulesets for Quartets.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Out of curiosity, what would people say constitutes a stage being broken enough to be banned?

We're heading into our tournaments after our science experiment and I'm curious what people think we should be looking for going forward to see if the stages that remain should stay legal.

 

[Doval]

Out of curiosity, what would people say constitutes a stage being broken enough to be banned?

We're heading into our tournaments after our science experiment and I'm curious what people think we should be looking for going forward to see if the stages that remain should stay legal.

I'd say a stage is definitely broken if it allows a player to avoid contact all throughout the match, or it has a significant hazard that's unpredictable and unavoidable (in the same way explosive items can randomly spawn next to an attacking player and kill him with items on.)

I'd say a stage is also broken if it enables a character-specific strategy that can't be countered, but that takes time to figure out.

 

[Piford]

Out of curiosity, what would people say constitutes a stage being broken enough to be banned?

We're heading into our tournaments after our science experiment and I'm curious what people think we should be looking for going forward to see if the stages that remain should stay legal.

When the stage determines who wins and not the player. This could arise from:
one character being too good on 3 or more stages, but only because those stages allow him to be that good (since I believe you guys are running 2 strikes? This is like Meta Knight on Brinstar, Delphino, and Halberd in brawl, where only halberd was left legal),
randomness, especially without warning (like the support ghost in Yoshi's Island, although thats legal, or the prizes in Warioware),
hazards that clear the screen (the bomb train in Spirit Tracks),
changing the way the game is played (Rumble Falls and Icicle Mountain come too mind),
being able to stall infinitely (The (Reverse) Hyrule Jump in Temple)

 

[Doval]

changing the way the game is played

I wouldn't make that a criteria, it's too open-ended. You could apply that to all sorts of things, like stages that change over time. I'd argue the problem with cases like Icicle Mountain is that they enable win strategies that can't be countered. If I counterpick you there with any character that can outjump yours, I'm going to win regardless of what you do.

There's really no objective way of deciding if a stage changes the way the game is played.

 

[Piford]

I wouldn't make that a criteria, it's too open-ended. You could apply that to all sorts of things, like stages that change over time. I'd argue the problem with cases like Icicle Mountain is that they enable win strategies that can't be countered. If I counterpick you there with any character that can outjump yours, I'm going to win regardless of what you do.

Yeah a better way to put it would be changing the way you win, because on those stages its determined on who can jump the best.

 

[Doval]

Yeah a better way to put it would be changing the way you win, because on those stages its determined on who can jump the best.

That still seems like a problem. Is the metal pool in Kalos subject to banning because I can use the metal to win? The enemy can use the metal too, and being metal is not without cons. The real problem is that there's nothing the opponent can do about you winning by jumping up the stage.

You could say that Icicle Mountain has unique ways to win but it would still have to be banned if every stage but FD was like it. And if there were only one stage with platforms, you could claim Battlefield changes the way the game is won.

 

[smashmachine]

Garden of Hope back to counterpick then? lol

 

[Piford]

That still seems like a problem. Is the metal pool in Kalos subject to banning because I can use the metal to win? The enemy can use the metal too, and being metal is not without cons. The real problem is that there's nothing the opponent can do about you winning by jumping up the stage.

You could say that Icicle Mountain has unique ways to win but it would still have to be banned if every stage but FD was like it. And if there were only one stage with platforms, you could claim Battlefield changes the way the game is won.

Sorry my wording is bad, and I'm not for banning Kalos just because Metal. Just ignore that point then.

Garden of Hope back to counterpick then? lol

We need to see how the bug effects the battle.

 

[Tristan_win]

This might not belong here but apparently 64 stages can be unlocked in smash4

http://youtu.be/_lo284Mvc9I?t=2m35s

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Sorry my wording is bad, and I'm not for banning Kalos just because Metal. Just ignore that point then.



We need to see how the bug effects the battle.

The aristocrab will show up from the right side of the screen and ram towards the left, destroying the plate building. From the footage I've looked at; there is a definite safe zone. The area behind the stick will be safe, as I saw some Pikmin building behind the aristocrab as he was ramming forward.Whether there is anything to destroy does not factor into if he'll show up though. Also, to signify his arrival, a bunch of bubbles will begin to show up on the right side of the screen for three seconds (from what I've seen). Whether there are destructible objects there or not doesn't dictate whether he'll show up.

I'm not sure if he's on a timer or anything.

The bulborb is a big unknown though. If I had to hamper a guess though; he's responsible for the stick breaking.

Something else I noticed, is that there are some bees that show up on the balancing platforms on the side of the stage. I'm not sure what they do.

 

[Piford]

The aristocrab will show up from the right side of the screen and ram towards the left, destroying the plate building. From the footage I've looked at; there is a definite safe zone. The area behind the stick will be safe, as I saw some Pikmin building behind the aristocrab as he was ramming forward.Whether there is anything to destroy does not factor into if he'll show up though. Also, to signify his arrival, a bunch of bubbles will begin to show up on the right side of the screen for three seconds (from what I've seen). Whether there are destructible objects there or not doesn't dictate whether he'll show up.

I'm not sure if he's on a timer or anything.

The bulborb is a big unknown though. If I had to hamper a guess though; he's responsible for the stick breaking.

Something else I noticed, is that there are some bees that show up on the balancing platforms on the side of the stage. I'm not sure what they do.

Is there any footage besides out of the direct I can watch?

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Is there any footage besides out of the direct I can watch?

In the direct is where I saw some Pikmin building while the crab came out. The only other footage is this. 5:02

 

[Headcrab Jackalope]

In the direct is where I saw some Pikmin building while the crab came out. The only other footage is this. 5:02

Are the bees(probably Scornets) in that video? I'm not seeing them.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Are the bees(probably Scornets) in that video? I'm not seeing them.

They're in another video, but I can't remember which one.

 

[Lasifer]

My thoughts:

First up, stages we know are 99.9% likely to be legal:

Starters:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City

Starters/Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

Counterpicks/Banned: Should these familiar stages be banned?
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Pokémon Stadium 2
Luigi's Mansion
Congo Jungle

New stage discussion:

Possible Starters/Counterpicks:
[Wuhu Island:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggC4joE2wU) This stage is interesting, like many other moving stages, this level's stops appear to be completely random, possibly detracting from it's legality. Possible all of the different stops can be seen [here](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wuhu_Island). Out of the 8 parts we've seen, 4 of them appear to have walk-offs and many others have swimming if knocked into the water. The stage's moving sections appear to be completely random, however, they seem perfectly fine regardless. I am personally leaning towards counterpick on this one.

[Orbital Gate Assault:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDw9iImsIok) At first glance, this may seem like an obvious ban, but here me out, I actually think it could be legal. There are indeed hazards on this stage, but they seem minor and predictable ala Halberd and Lylat Cruise, and shouldn't detract from any skill based fight. The stage isn't a scroller stage as it appeared to be either, and each of the different sections seem like they'd make fine stages on their own. This is one we'll obviously need more time with, but for now, I think it shouldn't be brushed off.

[Mario Circuit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-W0hpJjWM): Another one that might be brushed off, but hear me out. This is yet another moving stages and it's stops appear to be completely random once more. Out of the four sections we've seen, one has a wall and another a single walk-off section. However, the only two (one not in the video can be seen [here](http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/8/86/SSB4_-_Mario_Circuit_Image_2.PNG)) appear to be completely legal. The racers this time around don't appear to interfere as much as with previous Mario Kart stages, and if it's anything like Rainbow Road, they could possibly be shut off. This is another one we need time with, but I am currently advocating for it's legality.

[Wooly World](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9RmAFOZD2U): Man, this stage is so cute, and hopefully it's yet another beautiful legal Yoshi stage! We've seen three areas of this transforming stage, and too of which are walk-offs, and pretty big at that. The platform arrangement is unique, and obviously one we'll need time with, but let's not dismiss it just yet. I think if it's not legal for singles, it could possibly be a doubles stage.

[Windy Hill](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2q1Mgmkd04): This is a pretty big stage and the bumpers may detract from it, but I think we got a solid legal doubles stage on our hands if the bumpers and windmill don't turn out to be a big deal.

[Miiverse](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Miiverse_(stage)): Battlefield clone apparently, but if the blast zones are different it might be worth using both.

[Skyloft](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Skyloft): This stage's fate kind of rests upon whether or not Delfino should be banned, both very similar stages with some good sections and not-so good sections.

[Big Battlefield](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Big_Battlefield): Probably not a legal singles stage, but definitely legal for doubles, 3v3s, and 4v4s.

Banned:

Pyrosphere: Could have been an awesome legal stage if it weren't for the space dragon and exclusive-items showing up.

Kalos Pokémon League: I think this could have been a counterpick if it weren't for Rayquaza crashing the party.

Gamer: Awesome layout, too bad about 5-Volt.

Mario Galaxy: Weird gravity and constant walk-off, maybe a counter-pick if walk-offs aren't as big a deal though.

Mushroom Kingdom U: I think it's still possible to be a counter-pick, but leaning towards ban because of Nabbit moreso than Kamek.

Wii Fit Studio: Possibly legal if walk-offs aren't a big deal anymore.

Everything Else: Hazards, walk-offs, and scrolling galore!

 

[Piford]

My thoughts:

First up, stages we know are 99.9% likely to be legal:

Starters:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town & City

Starters/Counterpicks:
Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

Counterpicks/Banned: Should these familiar stages be banned?
Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Pokémon Stadium 2
Luigi's Mansion
Congo Jungle

New stage discussion:

Possible Starters/Counterpicks:
[Wuhu Island:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aggC4joE2wU) This stage is interesting, like many other moving stages, this level's stops appear to be completely random, possibly detracting from it's legality. Possible all of the different stops can be seen [here](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Wuhu_Island). Out of the 8 parts we've seen, 4 of them appear to have walk-offs and many others have swimming if knocked into the water. The stage's moving sections appear to be completely random, however, they seem perfectly fine regardless. I am personally leaning towards counterpick on this one.

[Orbital Gate Assault:](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDw9iImsIok) At first glance, this may seem like an obvious ban, but here me out, I actually think it could be legal. There are indeed hazards on this stage, but they seem minor and predictable ala Halberd and Lylat Cruise, and shouldn't detract from any skill based fight. The stage isn't a scroller stage as it appeared to be either, and each of the different sections seem like they'd make fine stages on their own. This is one we'll obviously need more time with, but for now, I think it shouldn't be brushed off.

[Mario Circuit](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-W0hpJjWM): Another one that might be brushed off, but hear me out. This is yet another moving stages and it's stops appear to be completely random once more. Out of the four sections we've seen, one has a wall and another a single walk-off section. However, the only two (one not in the video can be seen [here](http://www.ssbwiki.com/images/8/86/SSB4_-_Mario_Circuit_Image_2.PNG)) appear to be completely legal. The racers this time around don't appear to interfere as much as with previous Mario Kart stages, and if it's anything like Rainbow Road, they could possibly be shut off. This is another one we need time with, but I am currently advocating for it's legality.

[Wooly World](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N9RmAFOZD2U): Man, this stage is so cute, and hopefully it's yet another beautiful legal Yoshi stage! We've seen three areas of this transforming stage, and too of which are walk-offs, and pretty big at that. The platform arrangement is unique, and obviously one we'll need time with, but let's not dismiss it just yet. I think if it's not legal for singles, it could possibly be a doubles stage.

[Windy Hill](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2q1Mgmkd04): This is a pretty big stage and the bumpers may detract from it, but I think we got a solid legal doubles stage on our hands if the bumpers and windmill don't turn out to be a big deal.

[Miiverse](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Miiverse_(stage)): Battlefield clone apparently, but if the blast zones are different it might be worth using both.

[Skyloft](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Skyloft): This stage's fate kind of rests upon whether or not Delfino should be banned, both very similar stages with some good sections and not-so good sections.

[Big Battlefield](http://www.ssbwiki.com/Big_Battlefield): Probably not a legal singles stage, but definitely legal for doubles, 3v3s, and 4v4s.

Banned:

Pyrosphere: Could have been an awesome legal stage if it weren't for the space dragon and exclusive-items showing up.

Kalos Pokémon League: I think this could have been a counterpick if it weren't for Rayquaza crashing the party.

Gamer: Awesome layout, too bad about 5-Volt.

Mario Galaxy: Weird gravity and constant walk-off, maybe a counter-pick if walk-offs aren't as big a deal though.

Mushroom Kingdom U: I think it's still possible to be a counter-pick, but leaning towards ban because of Nabbit moreso than Kamek.

Wii Fit Studio: Possibly legal if walk-offs aren't a big deal anymore.

Everything Else: Hazards, walk-offs, and scrolling galore!

You forgot Pilotwings, as in only has minimal hazards that can be seen far ahead of time.
We don't know exactly how rayquaza works yet, he could just fly over the top once. If there's video of him please share.
All the retuning stages need reevaluation, especially since the new physics and mechanics change the problems with them.
Wrecking Crew probably deserves to be looked at too, as it seems similar to Tomodachi life.
Also of all the walk-offs, I think Coliseum is the best, but thats solely opinion.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I can't believe I didn't notice this. Wrecking crew does seem to have one "hazard". When the stage is falling, if a bucket is above you, you will be inside the bucket as a pair of eyeballs. I don't know if this hurts you or not though. Thanks Gamexplain for pointing this out in their analysis video.

 

[smashmachine]

wait Pilotwings has hazards? I didn't even know lol

 

[Piford]

wait Pilotwings has hazards? I didn't even know lol

Apparently the cruise ship can hurt players that get hit into. I found out today, although I still have yet to see a video of it. Anyways even if its true its not at all a stage breaking hazard, and Pilotwings still one of the most legal new stages.

 

[Lasifer]

You forgot Pilotwings, as in only has minimal hazards that can be seen far ahead of time.
We don't know exactly how rayquaza works yet, he could just fly over the top once. If there's video of him please share.
All the retuning stages need reevaluation, especially since the new physics and mechanics change the problems with them.
Wrecking Crew probably deserves to be looked at too, as it seems similar to Tomodachi life.
Also of all the walk-offs, I think Coliseum is the best, but thats solely opinion.

I forgot Pilotwings, the constant tilts and ability to knock opponents into the environment such as the boat and bridge for high damage/KO power may be bothersome, but I'm leaning towards a counterpick on it.

The ones listed as Counterpicks/Banned are stages I feel need to be reevaluated, but I think Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege, and of course Smashville are good to go right off the bat.

As for Rayquaza, in the single screenshot we have, he isvery close to the fighters and emitting electricity, and if that's the case, all hope for the stage's legality is gone. Unless, of course, he ends up being a Pokeball Pokemon, which would be awesome.

Wrecking Crew I thought was heavily hazardous, but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed entirely just yet.

 

[Piford]

I forgot Pilotwings, the constant tilts and ability to knock opponents into the environment such as the boat and bridge for high damage/KO power may be bothersome, but I'm leaning towards a counterpick on it.

The ones listed as Counterpicks/Banned are stages I feel need to be reevaluated, but I think Lylat Cruise, Halberd, Castle Siege, and of course Smashville are good to go right off the bat.

As for Rayquaza, in the single screenshot we have, he isvery close to the fighters and emitting electricity, and if that's the case, all hope for the stage's legality is gone. Unless, of course, he ends up being a Pokeball Pokemon, which would be awesome.

Wrecking Crew I thought was heavily hazardous, but it certainly shouldn't be dismissed entirely just yet.

So far all about wrecking crew is that if the barrels fall on you, you will go inside them. The bombs do no damage or knockback.

So apparently we have another kind of Omega form to deal with. Some stages will have a larger for of FD, as seen by which ones you can play on in 8 player smash. Apparently they are still bigger in 1v1. Just another thing to debate about over how we handle Omega forms.

 

[SonicZeroX]

edit: wrong topic oops

To make this more on topic, I've been wondering about Big Battlefield because at first I figured it's a perfectly neutral stage but just big so it should be fine. But if the blast zones are even bigger than other stages then it could really be problematic to fight Lucario here.

Also I wonder if Omega Big Battlefield will actually result in a bigger FD.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Delfino never should have been even considered for a ban in Brawl; it like Halberd I think is just obviously legal, and these are precisely the kinds of stages you absolutely can't ban since you make these games a million times worse when you ban this type of stage. Brawl was such a worse game by the time people got done banning stages, and anywhere that banned these two (wasn't consistent across regions) did the game more harm than with any other bans.

I've watched a lot of this footage, and I think we have a ton of good stages on our hands. I'm going to throw out there that I think every single one of the traveling stages except Yoshi's Wooly World looks like a good legal stage (we'll have to toy with Kalos and Orbital Gate, but they look good so far!), and that's just amazing as these kinds of stages add so much to the tournament scene (I'm of the camp that a tame traveling stage is actually the single most "neutral" type of stage, static stages like Battlefield are fair in a lot of match-ups but offer static advantages so in the match-ups they are skewed they're skewed the entire time). In fact, we're well on our way to around 20 legal stages with a good balance between statics and dynamics, and I think at this point worrying about specific stages is less important than focusing on a few key principles for our rules informed by the huge pool of legality candidates.

-We really, really need to find a way to avoid the starter-counterpick dichotomy. It is really toxic to our long term rulesets; I've spoken about it at length before, but the big problem is that from a player's perspective it's extremely counterproductive to practice counterpick stages (wins in game one are what win you sets, and you can always counterpick starters). Any stage you make a "counterpick" stage will eventually be banned no matter how good or fair of a stage it is; every stage needs to be equally legal... which is really what makes sense anyway. How can a stage be fair enough for tournament but only in some rounds? That really doesn't make sense. This is a huge challenge though as stage striking with 20ish stages is just not practical; we need to find a good paradigm to keep all of these stages game one legal. I'm thinking alternating round striking might be the best way if the game gives us about what I suspect it will (if you have 18 legal stages, you can strike from 9 in odd-numbered tournament rounds and the other 9 in even, can always counterpick any of the 18; the big problem is that this works pretty badly if you don't end up with precisely 18 legal stages). If we end up with some odd and difficult number like 20 exactly, it will be hard.

-As people argue for bans, a lot of people will view stages as being at a surplus and want to ban any stage with any little "problem". That's just wrong-headed thinking on so many levels. Dynamic stages will do more stuff and will have more features that someone could hypothetically find a reason to whine about, but they are just as important to the overall health of the game as the static stages and systematically eliminating them actually does more damage than banning an equal number of stages at random since you're changing the natural state of the game (that has dynamic stages as hugely important) when you do that and arbitrarily favoring certain characters who really like the more static ones. Even if we have a lot of good stages, that is absolutely no reason to start loosening up on ban criteria, and any bans we do issue must be carefully considered in the context of the overall game such that certain fundamentally good types of stages don't get disproportionately banned.

These are the main issues I'm thinking about as we really learn about these Wii U stages; it's a completely different challenge from 3DS (we're just overflowing with good stages!), but it's a real challenge that we have to take seriously regardless as it would be easy to make the game artificially worse than it could be if we are careless in handling our huge pool of good stages.

 

[Piford]

Delfino never should have been even considered for a ban in Brawl; it like Halberd I think is just obviously legal, and these are precisely the kinds of stages you absolutely can't ban since you make these games a million times worse when you ban this type of stage. Brawl was such a worse game by the time people got done banning stages, and anywhere that banned these two (wasn't consistent across regions) did the game more harm than with any other bans.

I've watched a lot of this footage, and I think we have a ton of good stages on our hands. I'm going to throw out there that I think every single one of the traveling stages except Yoshi's Wooly World looks like a good legal stage (we'll have to toy with Kalos and Orbital Gate, but they look good so far!), and that's just amazing as these kinds of stages add so much to the tournament scene (I'm of the camp that a tame traveling stage is actually the single most "neutral" type of stage, static stages like Battlefield are fair in a lot of match-ups but offer static advantages so in the match-ups they are skewed they're skewed the entire time). In fact, we're well on our way to around 20 legal stages with a good balance between statics and dynamics, and I think at this point worrying about specific stages is less important than focusing on a few key principles for our rules informed by the huge pool of legality candidates.

-We really, really need to find a way to avoid the starter-counterpick dichotomy. It is really toxic to our long term rulesets; I've spoken about it at length before, but the big problem is that from a player's perspective it's extremely counterproductive to practice counterpick stages (wins in game one are what win you sets, and you can always counterpick starters). Any stage you make a "counterpick" stage will eventually be banned no matter how good or fair of a stage it is; every stage needs to be equally legal... which is really what makes sense anyway. How can a stage be fair enough for tournament but only in some rounds? That really doesn't make sense. This is a huge challenge though as stage striking with 20ish stages is just not practical; we need to find a good paradigm to keep all of these stages game one legal. I'm thinking alternating round striking might be the best way if the game gives us about what I suspect it will (if you have 18 legal stages, you can strike from 9 in odd-numbered tournament rounds and the other 9 in even, can always counterpick any of the 18; the big problem is that this works pretty badly if you don't end up with precisely 18 legal stages). If we end up with some odd and difficult number like 20 exactly, it will be hard.

-As people argue for bans, a lot of people will view stages as being at a surplus and want to ban any stage with any little "problem". That's just wrong-headed thinking on so many levels. Dynamic stages will do more stuff and will have more features that someone could hypothetically find a reason to whine about, but they are just as important to the overall health of the game as the static stages and systematically eliminating them actually does more damage than banning an equal number of stages at random since you're changing the natural state of the game (that has dynamic stages as hugely important) when you do that and arbitrarily favoring certain characters who really like the more static ones. Even if we have a lot of good stages, that is absolutely no reason to start loosening up on ban criteria, and any bans we do issue must be carefully considered in the context of the overall game such that certain fundamentally good types of stages don't get disproportionately banned.

These are the main issues I'm thinking about as we really learn about these Wii U stages; it's a completely different challenge from 3DS (we're just overflowing with good stages!), but it's a real challenge that we have to take seriously regardless as it would be easy to make the game artificially worse than it could be if we are careless in handling our huge pool of good stages.

I think Yoshi's Wooly World is a good stage. I definitely agree with basically everything here. If were do end up with a weird number, then hopefully we can agree on a custom stage to fix those numbers or do something like separate/combine the two Omegas. People need to understand more stages are good for the balance of the game, not bad. On the subreddit, people are acting like were completely deprived of stages, and that any stage that isn't FD or BF is banned. There are people who didn't know Castle Siege, Halberd, and Lylat Cruise were legal stages in brawl. I believe castle siege might even be the most balenced stage in the game. People are too afraid of change because they think Melee perfected what makes a good smash bros ruleset, yet Smash 4 is nothing like melee.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

*snip*

I completely agree, but I've been noticing lately that people seem very unwilling to accept any stage perceived as "out-there." Veering back to the 3DS stage list, I asked a few people at a local event today what they thought of the stages and got "Battlefield/FD/Yoshi's/Omega" with a perfectly straight face. IMO this is horrifically ignorant. Mute City Melee was compared favorably to Rainbow Road, despite the latter having grabbable edges and the cars being signaled in advance. Arena Ferox was dismissed due to walls and solid platforms in the transformations, and Prism Tower was considered barely acceptable. (Unfortunately I forgot to ask what they thought of Tomodachi Life.) I suspect this mindset is partially because no one wants to take a chance on an unknown stage in any sort of serious match, despite that being the exact sort of situation we need in order for the test to mean anything. (This is part of the reason I've been doing my stage research threads. Speaking of which, Tortimer Island, check it. </blatant plug>)

Vaguely related, I wonder if a separate thread on getting rid of the starter/counterpick dichotomy would be appropriate? It crops up somewhat regularly in stage discussion threads but I'm not sure it really gets the attention necessary for a serious discussion when it's buried in that sort of larger topic.