Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Piford]

A separate thread would actually make sense since were not actual analyzing stages by talking about it. Also it seems a large majority of people don't know that wall infinites are gone, and some people still don't know chain grabbing is out too.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Online tournaments look to be the best place for experimentation with these stages if people at actual tourneys are gonna be so uncooperative.

I agree though, that the starter/counterpick discussion should be it's own thread.

 

[Tybis]

stage striking with 20ish stages is just not practical; we need to find a good paradigm to keep all of these stages game one legal. I'm thinking alternating round striking might be the best way if the game gives us about what I suspect it will (if you have 18 legal stages, you can strike from 9 in odd-numbered tournament rounds and the other 9 in even, can always counterpick any of the 18; the big problem is that this works pretty badly if you don't end up with precisely 18 legal stages). If we end up with some odd and difficult number like 20 exactly, it will be hard.

Why not use a method other than striking? For instance; Player A declares a stage, then player B responds by either accepting the stage or they can "veto" it, and repeat this process until a stage is accepted, or player B runs out of vetoes. If no stage is accepted after player B runs out of vetos, then a legal stage is chosen at random.

Maybe vetoes shouldn't be restored between rounds, maybe first round players A and B should alternate declaring stages?

Just a REALLY rough idea. I guess it'd be more direct and take less time while not running into the even-number-of-stages problem?

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Why not use a method other than striking? For instance; Player A declares a stage, then player B responds by either accepting the stage or they can "veto" it, and repeat this process until a stage is accepted, or player B runs out of vetoes. If no stage is accepted after player B runs out of vetos, then a legal stage is chosen at random.

Maybe vetoes shouldn't be restored between rounds, maybe first round players A and B should alternate declaring stages?

Just a REALLY rough idea. I guess it'd be more direct and take less time while not running into the even-number-of-stages problem?

The problem with this system is the incentive of the players. I will always, if given a choice, pick stages most advantageous to me and maximally unfair for my opponent. Since player B will know this, he'll always veto every stage I name until we go random (this changes a bit if his veto total is very large, but if it is, the system begins to be slower than stage striking and still is overall inferior). There are variations that could be used to spice that up and address that problem, but you end up with a big game outside the game and luck factors that cause a lot of problems. You always have to assume that the competitors are adversarial and looking to use the proceduce to procure adantages; part of the reason striking is so successful is that it assumes players will always look out for thier own self-interest (generally a safe assumption really).

The heart of this problem really is that there are three principles we'd really like to realize all at once but that are at odds with each other:

-We want fair stage outcomes.
-We want diverse legal stages.
-We want stage procedure to be fast.

It's fairly easy to make a ruleset that mostly does well by 2/3, but when the game itself has 20ish good stages, it's very hard to get all three working together. I still struggle with the best solution to this problem; I get a sense we have to make some sacrifices, but I'm not sure how we can minimize the pain overall in making the best possible ruleset.

 

[Piford]

I think for round one, taking turns striking all the stages until one is left is the most balanced way to do it, since you'll end up in the most "neutral" stage for the matchup. If this is time consuming, we could set a time limit on it, like 15 seconds per strike, if you run out of time, your forfeit your turn. Various patterns could be allowed like 1-2...2-1 or 2-3...3-2 depending on how many legal stages there are.

 

[Piford]

Some nice and clean Garden of Hope footage.

I'm gonna go with a probably banned on this one. The bug comes a little too frequently and takes up a lot off the stage. That being said, if it ends up easily avoidable, this stage could work. Its should be noted that the stick, cup, and bridge can all be destroyed by both players and the bug.

 

[Mr. Johan]

Gamer footage

5-Volt's scanning actually has some startup when she comes onto the scene, similar to Halberd's and Frigate Orpheon's warnings. And she always scans the same general area depending on where she is when she scans:

If she comes through the door - she'll scan in the open space between the two blocks
If she comes through the left window - Scan in the same area she scans from the door.
Right window - she scans the entire right side of the stage.

She has two phases at the television:
She can poke her out and scan - same area as from the right window
She'll jump out of the TV - It looks like she scans the entire arena as she moves right to left.

She will not catch you until the scanning light hits the tableI, and if she catches you, it's an automatic 20% with some moderately high knockback.

Unfortunately she appears a little too frequently to plan a proper spacing and stage control game imo. And the stage can sometimes fake you out as to where she's coming from - one moment in that video she was walking outside, and then a second 5-Volt pops through the TV screen and starts scanning. Plus the upper block on the left can lead to some cave-of-life shenanigans.

Shame too. I like the lack of music until she's prancing around. Has a Silent Hill kind of feel to it.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Some nice and clean Garden of Hope footage.

I'm gonna go with a probably banned on this one. The bug comes a little too frequently and takes up a lot off the stage. That being said, if it ends up easily avoidable, this stage could work. Its should be noted that the stick, cup, and bridge can all be destroyed by both players and the bug.

Actually, only the cup is destroyed by the aristocrab. (Look's like I was wrong about the bee's though. They're just an item.) The bridge and the stick must be destroyed by players.

And I'm not sure if I'd say he shows up too much. 1:06 minutes isn't exactly what you'd classify as too much. That's about 8 times a tourney legal match. Though it's still open to debate whether he's consistent on that time frame.

It also seems disadvantageous for both players to be in it's path, but fairly simple to jump over with every character. Of course, this must be tested.

 

[Deleted member]

What do you guys think of Windy Hill? It may be a bit big, but its very unique in its layout and has no hazards, plus the windmill carries you so close to the blast zone campers are not going to want to eat any kind of Fair, Uair, or Nair. The springs might be a bit troublesome, but it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

I'm leaning towards counter pick, but I think we have so many potential legal stages that we might need a new system altogether.

 

[Piford]

What do you guys think of Windy Hill? It may be a bit big, but its very unique in its layout and has no hazards, plus the windmill carries you so close to the blast zone campers are not going to want to eat any kind of Fair, Uair, or Nair. The springs might be a bit troublesome, but it doesn't seem to be that big of a deal.

I'm leaning towards counter pick, but I think we have so many potential legal stages that we might need a new system altogether.

I think were going to actually need to measure this stage. The main platform looks a bit bigger than FD, which isn't too bad. The springs aren't there all the time, so you just have to be aware of your surroundings

 

[SonicZeroX]

Gamer footage

5-Volt's scanning actually has some startup when she comes onto the scene, similar to Halberd's and Frigate Orpheon's warnings. And she always scans the same general area depending on where she is when she scans:

If she comes through the door - she'll scan in the open space between the two blocks
If she comes through the left window - Scan in the same area she scans from the door.
Right window - she scans the entire right side of the stage.

She has two phases at the television:
She can poke her out and scan - same area as from the right window
She'll jump out of the TV - It looks like she scans the entire arena as she moves right to left.

She will not catch you until the scanning light hits the tableI, and if she catches you, it's an automatic 20% with some moderately high knockback.

Unfortunately she appears a little too frequently to plan a proper spacing and stage control game imo. And the stage can sometimes fake you out as to where she's coming from - one moment in that video she was walking outside, and then a second 5-Volt pops through the TV screen and starts scanning. Plus the upper block on the left can lead to some cave-of-life shenanigans.

Shame too. I like the lack of music until she's prancing around. Has a Silent Hill kind of feel to it.

I actually kind of wish the Mom's stare was an OHKO. It's obviously a fun stage and if it was an OHKO it would have been a lot scarier to fit the theme of the stage

 

[lordvaati]

After playing the 3DS version for a while, I feel like this is the stage list I should try out at my events when I start them up(For 3DS anyway.)

Nutes
BF
FD
All Omegas
Prism
Yoshi's Island

CounterPicks
Reset
Ferox
Tamodachi Life

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I think were going to actually need to measure this stage. The main platform looks a bit bigger than FD, which isn't too bad. The springs aren't there all the time, so you just have to be aware of your surroundings

What I've been using to measure stage length is Rosalina's Launch Star, of all things. If you angle it horizontally (or as close as it'll let you), it covers exactly the length of FD. Roll to one side, launch to the other, and she'll land and go straight into her "I'm about to fall" animation.

It's not precise, but it's good enough for my "bigger/smaller than FD" notes.

 

[Piford]

What I've been using to measure stage length is Rosalina's Launch Star, of all things. If you angle it horizontally (or as close as it'll let you), it covers exactly the length of FD. Roll to one side, launch to the other, and she'll land and go straight into her "I'm about to fall" animation.

It's not precise, but it's good enough for my "bigger/smaller than FD" notes.

I thought the standard of measuring was Robin Rolls, since he rolls exactly 1/5 the length of final destination.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I thought the standard of measuring was Robin Rolls, since he rolls exactly 1/5 the length of final destination.

I discovered it on accident while waiting in For Glory and did some verification testing after. It's just convenient since Rosalina's already my main so I'm super used to how she controls. Haven't really gotten around to using Robin yet outside of Classic and Smash Run.

 

[Piford]

I discovered it on accident while waiting in For Glory and did some verification testing after. It's just convenient since Rosalina's already my main so I'm super used to how she controls. Haven't really gotten around to using Robin yet outside of Classic and Smash Run.

Either way, we should be able to get an estimate on the length. I just like Robin Rolls because it quantitative.If you can count Launch Stars then go for it.

 

[M15t3R E]

So.... Do we need a definitive "length" that'll tell us which stages are best for 1v1's or 2v2's or 4/4's?

 

[The_Altrox]

Some nice and clean Garden of Hope footage.

I'm gonna go with a probably banned on this one. The bug comes a little too frequently and takes up a lot off the stage. That being said, if it ends up easily avoidable, this stage could work. Its should be noted that the stick, cup, and bridge can all be destroyed by both players and the bug.

I think this stage would be a good counterpick for teams, but due to the size and abnormal structure, I wouldn't have it be a counterpick for singles.

Incidentally, I just started looking at this thread: will there be stages that will only be allowed in teams on 3DS or WiiU? I look at stages like Bomb Forest and think "too big for 1 vs. 1, but in teams, sure.

 

[Piford]

I think this stage would be a good counterpick for teams, but due to the size and abnormal structure, I wouldn't have it be a counterpick for singles.

Incidentally, I just started looking at this thread: will there be stages that will only be allowed in teams on 3DS or WiiU? I look at stages like Bomb Forest and think "too big for 1 vs. 1, but in teams, sure.

There have always been separate stage list for singles and doubles.

 

[The_Altrox]

There have always been separate stage list for singles and doubles.

I know that for old games, but has anything been discussed for these new games?

 

[KlefkiHolder]

I know that for old games, but has anything been discussed for these new games?

I don't see why it would be any different.

And Big Battlefield has already garnered a lot of discussion for how it should be legal in 1v1 and larger formats.

 

[The_Altrox]

And Big Battlefield has already garnered a lot of discussion for how it should be legal in 1v1 and larger formats.

Eh, idk... 4 vs. 4, 3 vs. 3, and even 2 vs. 2, sure. But 1 vs. 1? idk, but it's too early to say, I guess.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

What do folks think of Wrecking Crew?

This is a stage that doesn't deserve a kneejerk reaction banning it, I feel. It needs experimentation.

From what we already know there is only one "hazard" on this stage, and it's if a bucket falls on you, you go in the bucket.

Aside from that, the floor doesn't hurt you when it falls, and neither do the bombs.

You can hit people through the ceiling so there are no caves of life.

The stage layout, while random is entirely decided by the players destroying it. This could create an interesting dynamic in matches where a player may not want the stage to change while the other player may want it to change in their favor, so the two of them fight for control of the bombs.

Edit: There is one not random element of the layout. It's that the base platform is there to stay.

Of course, I'm just being optimistic here. Who knows how this stage may go in the future? But I feel like this is one that people may kneejerk just because of it's odd layout.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

So, did someone actually did the stage ruleset thread? It's getting kind of complicated to get people to agree on basic rules on only one thread. (And I've seen this discussion in three different ones)
Can't we do an unified thread to discuss the whole ruleset at once instead of doing separate threads?

Also, finally more than 10 good stages in a official Smash Bros. I thought I'd never see the day.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

So, did someone actually did the stage ruleset thread? It's getting kind of complicated to get people to agree on basic rules on only one thread. (And I've seen this discussion in three different ones)
Can't we do an unified thread to discuss the whole ruleset at once instead of doing separate threads?

Also, finally more than 10 good stages in a official Smash Bros. I thought I'd never see the day.

Here it is. Thank @ Piford for this one.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

What do folks think of Wrecking Crew?

This is a stage that doesn't deserve a kneejerk reaction banning it, I feel. It needs experimentation.

From what we already know there is only one "hazard" on this stage, and it's if a bucket falls on you, you go in the bucket.

Aside from that, the floor doesn't hurt you when it falls, and neither do the bombs.

You can hit people through the ceiling so there are no caves of life.

The stage layout, while random is entirely decided by the players destroying it. This could create an interesting dynamic in matches where a player may not want the stage to change while the other player may want it to change in their favor, so the two of them fight for control of the bombs.

Edit: There is one not random element of the layout. It's that the base platform is there to stay.

Of course, I'm just being optimistic here. Who knows how this stage may go in the future? But I feel like this is one that people may kneejerk just because of it's odd layout.

I agree that kneejerking is bad and that this stage warrants testing. However, I'd really temper your expectations here. Wrecking Crew always has platforms very close to the top blast zone which is non-trivially match distorting (and a huge match-up advantage for Kirby, MK, or Charizard versus anyone else), and the stage is absolutely huge and probably enables a lot of run-away. It's entirely possible it's not broken, but given how absurdly obnoxious Tomodachi Life is, it's hard to foresee this stage as being anything but an even worse version of that that might actually be unfair unlike Tomodachi which is merely total misery to play on but fair misery. To me it's more important to worry about kneejerks against really quality stages like Mushroom Kingdom U (I played it in the demo; I know this stage is awesome) and great prospects like Kalos or the Orbital Gate; those stages being lost for any reason other than really legit need risk really hurting the game while Wrecking Crew I feel is the kind of stage that is dubious may or may not be fair but almost definitely makes the game worse if allowed either way. Again I'm all for testing everything (why not test everything?), but this stage is really not a top tier prospect.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I agree that kneejerking is bad and that this stage warrants testing. However, I'd really temper your expectations here. Wrecking Crew always has platforms very close to the top blast zone which is non-trivially match distorting (and a huge match-up advantage for Kirby, MK, or Charizard versus anyone else), and the stage is absolutely huge and probably enables a lot of run-away. It's entirely possible it's not broken, but given how absurdly obnoxious Tomodachi Life is, it's hard to foresee this stage as being anything but an even worse version of that that might actually be unfair unlike Tomodachi which is merely total misery to play on but fair misery. To me it's more important to worry about kneejerks against really quality stages like Mushroom Kingdom U (I played it in the demo; I know this stage is awesome) and great prospects like Kalos or the Orbital Gate; those stages being lost for any reason other than really legit need risk really hurting the game while Wrecking Crew I feel is the kind of stage that is dubious may or may not be fair but almost definitely makes the game worse if allowed either way. Again I'm all for testing everything (why not test everything?), but this stage is really not a top tier prospect.

The thing is the layout of this stage is controlled by the players, there could be a high platform close to the blastzone, or there could not be one if the player doesn't like those odds and there are bombs layers on multiple platforms to bring them down, so it can't last as long as players are ferocious.

Also, am I the only one who doesn't think this stage is that big? The base platform seems barely bigger than Final destination.

Yes, I could forsee this becoming a counterpick for flying characters, but the match isn't entirely in their favor as long as their advantage can be brought crumbling down.

 

[Plain Yogurt]

It's entirely possible it's not broken, but given how absurdly obnoxious Tomodachi Life is, it's hard to foresee this stage as being anything but an even worse version of that that might actually be unfair unlike Tomodachi which is merely total misery to play on but fair misery.

Out of curiosity, how have you guys been playing Tomodachi? I've never seemed to have many issues playing it and in fact found it to be one of the more enjoyable stages in the game. Is there some kind of stupid strategy on it or something?

As for Wrecking Crew...eh. We'll see. It's a bit on the tall side, but the players of what little footage I've seen didn't really blow up the stage much, so it's hard to tell how much impact it'll have. Definitely testable.

To me it's more important to worry about kneejerks against really quality stages like Mushroom Kingdom U (I played it in the demo; I know this stage is awesome) and great prospects like Kalos or the Orbital Gate.

The stage might have been awesome in the demo, but they've added Nabbit to it since, who can apparently kidnap people. Do we have footage of how he works? Also, do we know what hazards are in Orbital Gate? I saw the GameXplain video and I saw that the fire from the ships' thrusters can hurt, but when the Arwings blew up the Aparoid ship/missile/I forgot the players didn't seem to get hurt at all. At first glance it does seem like it could work though.

 

[Terotrous]

My thoughts on the new stages:


Wrecking Crew:

Not as bad as I would have thought, but as noted, the high platforms will likely result in this being banned, as Kirby can probably get a 50% kill with upthrow whenever one is around. It's also a little big for 1v1. Could maybe be considered for doubles, where broken stuff that kills at 50% is the norm.


Orbital Gate Assault:

It's Pokefloats 2. Too many transitions between platforms that can easily result in SDs or absurd gimps, particularly the one where the ship blows up.


Kalos Pokemon League:

Can't tell from the Gamexplain video, it shows too little of the stage.


Mario Circuit:

Very similar to Rainbow Road, but with better layouts and less disruptive cars. Probably legal.


Jungle Hijinx:

Hard to tell at this point, needs testing. May be susceptible to a form of circle camping due to the barrels. The fact that the center platform can break is also a camping threat.


LittleBigPlanet Yoshi's Woolly World:

This is a really weird and janky stage. It's basically Electroplankton 2, a weird mess of oddly positioned platforms that has no real cohesiveness to it. Definitely not for singles, might potentially work for doubles.


Great Cave Offensive:

The most banned stage ever. No explanation necessary.


Pyrosphere:

Among the most tragic stages in series history. If this stage had no hazards, it would be the best stage in the game, but Ridley is a super obvious ban. Plz Sakurai, give us a way to turn hazards off.


Wuhu Island:

This game's Prism Tower. Legal.


Windy Hill:

Nothing too objectionable here. Definitely legal for doubles. Might be too big for singles.


Palutena's Temple:

As huge stages go, this is much better than Temple and GCO, but it's still way too big for 1v1 and probably 2v2. Might work for 4v4 if we ever decide to run it.


Garden of Hope:

Ruined by Crab, who is one of the most obnoxious hazards in any stage. He's fast and big and kills stupid early.


Mario Galaxy:

The most inoffensive walkoff stage, but I think it's probably still banned because of walkoffs.


Onett:

Still as bad as it's always been.

 

[Piford]

My thoughts on the new stages:

Orbital Gate Assault:

It's Pokefloats 2. Too many transitions between platforms that can easily result in SDs or absurd gimps, particularly the one where the ship blows up.

Yoshi's Woolly World:

This is a really weird and janky stage. It's basically Electroplankton 2, a weird mess of oddly positioned platforms that has no real cohesiveness to it. Definitely not for singles, might potentially work for doubles.

Garden of Hope:

Ruined by Crab, who is one of the most obnoxious hazards in any stage. He's fast and big and kills stupid early.

Onett:

Still as bad as it's always been.

Orbital Gate is not that much like Pokefloats. The stage throws you towards the next platform instead of you having to jump towards it. Also Pokefloats was banned for being overly big and getting easy KO's by abusing the pokemon flying up.

Electroplankton was banned for being big, having good camping spots (the bottom leaf), the large amount of slopes created,and lacking grabbable edges. And WW has much more logical platform placement.

Now I think we should give GoH a chance, but I agree its pretty big. I don't think it got early kills as it seemed the kills were around 130%.

Onett's problems were wall infinites, and walk-offs. I think it deserves a reevalutation, just like every returning stage.

 

[Terotrous]

Now I think we should give GoH a chance, but I agree its pretty big. I don't think it got early kills as it seemed the kills were around 130%.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wrO2OIS_g#t=14s

16% damage, kills Villager at 99%, ZSS at 105%. Bad vectoring is a possibility, but that's still pretty nuts.

Onett's problems were wall infinites, and walk-offs. I think it deserves a reevalutation, just like every returning stage.

Also camping and hazards. It's really just a very janky stage design in general.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wrO2OIS_g#t=14s

16% damage, kills Villager at 99%, ZSS at 105%. Bad vectoring is a possibility, but that's still pretty nuts.

ZSS actually takes 20% damage. I checked another point in the video and she was hurt for 20% again. The crab's body seems to be the part that is most damaging. Another thing is Villager had to be pretty much in the center of the crab's claw before he was hurt, so there seems to be a generous hurtbox there which can make jumping over the crab easier.

Still, even at 23% ZSS goes pretty high for a character launched from the ground.

 

[Piford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5wrO2OIS_g#t=14s

16% damage, kills Villager at 99%, ZSS at 105%. Bad vectoring is a possibility, but that's still pretty nuts.



Also camping and hazards. It's really just a very janky stage design in general.

Where can you camp in Onett? I know you can't under the house because the cars will hurt you.

 

[Terotrous]

Where can you camp in Onett? I know you can't under the house because the cars will hurt you.

Under the clothesline (on top of the house on the right) has always been a solid camping spot. The blast lines are extra campable too since the houses protect you from the front. You get a warning before the cars come so that's not really a big deal.


Incidentally, it just occurred to me that it is ironic that you want to re-try previously banned stages in this game, considering that your avatar is a prosecutor from Phoenix Wright and in the PW universe, it's guilty until proven innocent.

 

[Chukkaque]

Okay, so @#HBC | Ryker and I just finished running through all the stages we currently have unlocked. Here's what we came up with.

Legal

Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island Brawl

AC Island – Boat seems pretty predictable and unobtrusive. Random layout possibly of small concern, need to research how much it varies.

Lumiose City Gym – Starts with initial walk-off. Platform comes in at 8 seconds and leaves 5 seconds later. Visual warnings when platforms leave or change and you can't die off the top when platforms leave. Full cycles ~2 min. 4 transitions total. Only one set of stages (no variation a la Delphino).

Phase 1
Ground with walkoff. Platform appears at 8. Leaves at 10.

Phase 2
Arrives at 15. Observation deck leaves at 30 seconds.

Phase 3
Four plat set-up at 40 seconds. Leaves at 52 seconds.

Phase 4
1:05 metal platform setup. 3 plats. 1:20 leaves to night sky transitions

Phase 5
Night Sky transition leaves at 1:45. Landing back on ground 1:55.

Consistently loop, non-intrusive.

Arena Ferox –Starts with med sized flat stage henceforth called neutral transformation. First trans 10 seconds. 3 plats on statues like castle siege. They are breakable. 40 seconds leaves trans 1. 45 goes to neutral. 50 sec goes to rotating plats with a solid plat in the middle. 1:30 collapses to neutral. 1:40 sec goes to 4 plat layout with a three unbreakable/unpassable walls. 2:20 back to neutral. 2:30 4 plats with small solid wall in the middle on the ground. Breakable plats. Cannot die off top with platforms leaving. 3:10 goes to neutral. 3:20 heads back to first trans.

Order of stage is NOT SET. Cycle will go transition into neutral into transition, but the order of which transition does not follow any known pattern and will change the order of the second cycle as soon as all transitions have been seen. Works like Pokemon Stadium in every aspect we can see.

Arena Ferox is basically this game's PS1. I don't think the transition with the blocked platforms is intrusive enough to be an actual problem, tbh. No moreso than PS1 was.

Reset Bomb Forest - Trans at 55 when meteor comes down. 3 sets of destructible platforms that cannot be passed through. 12 damage creature comes across the bottom. Creature comes in from right at 15 seconds after trans and then spends 15 seconds crossing the screen. He is then gone for another 15 seconds. Then he returns crossing left to right instead and taking another 15 seconds. Kills at about Brinstar acid to eyeball it. Transitions back to first at 2:10 as creature returns to right side.

Creature side of origin varies.

Brinstar – Same as Brawl, but sharking should be mitigated.

Questionable

Tomodachi Life – Suspect circle-camp, very visually jarring. Would personally say no.
Gaur Plains – Potential circle camp, sharking, walk-off camping.
Distant Planet – Essentially the same as Brawl. Same problems with Rain, camping, walk-off and Bulborb.
Corneria – Walls not as abusive as previous. Possible, but gross.
Jungle Japes – Differnt klaptrap starts, but still on 10 second timer. Water is super strong. Holy ****.
Paper Mario – 3 transisitons. 2:30 seconds for a full cycle. Needs further examination.
Mario 3D World – Scroller with a minimal hazard 3/4 way through. Requires further research.

Hella-Banned

Wily's Castle – Yellow Devil single-handedly ruins this stage.
Find Mii – Ultimate Ghost attacking ruins this stage too. Far far too disruptive.
Nintendogs – Constant falling disruptive debris. Walk-offs. Potential run-away.
Punch-out – Far too easy to camp the lights. Even though you can knock them down, they only stay down for 5 seconds. Air-camping would be far too strong.
Wario-ware – Star + Super Shroom. Banned.
N's Castle – Tried so hard, but hell no. Zekrom and Reshiram are bad news. Stairs can kill as they come in.
Magicant (Earthbound Stage) – Birdman is too strong a friend. So much bro.
Spirit Tracks – Big Blue 2.
Gerudo Valley – Bridge of Eldin, but worse.
Mushroomy Kingdom – Same as Brawl. Please go away.
Green Hill Zone – Still destructible. Still walk-offs. Still a mean stage hazard.
Rainbow Road – Single plat start. Lands at 10 secs. Trans is plats over open hole. 7:35 trans to neutral. Track deals 15 damage when moving. Periods when no track beneath stage. Landed at 6:50. Cars do 10 each. 6:25 next trans. 2 plats. Grabbable ledge. Leaves at 6:10 with nice big arrow. 6:00 next stage. Flat moon area. Cars come in like flat area of port town aero dive. Leaves at 5:45. 5:35 tubes where you can hit wall. Ground rotates and cars from the back. Leaves at 5:15. Finishes 4:55. Like Port Town, has multiple stop routes. Track kills off top ~100.

Cars too obtrusive. Some transitions garbage.

New Super Mario Brothers – Walk-offs and scrolling. Coins do something? Can't tell what turning gold does.

Pictochat – BAAAAAAAANNED. :<

Balloon Fight - Awful. Water is dangerous and intrusive. Bumpers. Layout is bad. Walk-offs.

Conclusions

Overall, I do not have high hopes for having a sizeable stagelist in the 3DS version. We don't have everything unlocked yet, but the number of quality stages is prettttty small.

Aside from reset bomb forest, i agree with all of this. Reset Bomb should be banned.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Under the clothesline (on top of the house on the right) has always been a solid camping spot. The blast lines are extra campable too since the houses protect you from the front. You get a warning before the cars come so that's not really a big deal.


Incidentally, it just occurred to me that it is ironic that you want to re-try previously banned stages in this game, considering that your avatar is a prosecutor from Phoenix Wright and in the PW universe, it's guilty until proven innocent.

Weren't you citing the hazards as reasons for banning the stage? Bah, anyways, since you two are talking about it.

 

[Terotrous]

Weren't you citing the hazards as reasons for banning the stage? Bah, anyways, since you two are talking about it.

Yes, the hazards are a problem when people are actually fighting (since you could be stuck in a rapid jab or whatever), not when someone is camping.

 

[LunarDistortion]

Of the Wii U stages, here's my list of Neutral and Counter-Pick.

Neutral
-Battlefield
-Big Battlefield
-Final Destination
-Omega Forms
-Miiverse
-Town and City
-Smashville
-Lylat Cruise

Counter Pick
-Coliseum (Walkoff)
-Jungle Hijinx (Could be susceptible to camping, the falling totem pole might hurt it's chances)
-Mario Circuit (Needs testing, it might suffer the same fate as Mute City)
-Pilotwings
-Skyloft ( A few walkoff and a bit big)
-Windy Hill (Might be too big)
-Wuhu Island ( A few walkoffs, swimming, needs testing)
-Castle Siege (Walkoffs)
-Delfino Plaza (Walkoffs, Wall infinites are gone now, sharking)
-Halberd (sharking)
-Mario Galaxy (Needs testing)
-Port Town Aero Dive (Cars, Floor causes quite a bit of damage)

Banned
-Gamer (Mom is a bit unpredictable, cave of life)
-Garden of Hope (Big, Peckish Aristocrab is disruptive)
-Kalos Pokemon League (Rayquaza stage boss, water carries you away)
-Mushroom Kingdom U (Platforms during transformations seem disruptive)
-Orbital Gate Assualt (You can lose if you don't react to sudden transformations)
-Pac-land (Auto-scrolling)
-Palutena's Temple (Ridley is small compared to this, let's talk when we do 8 Player tourneys)
-Pyrosphere (Speaking of Ridley...)
-The Great Cave Offensive (Do I need to explain?)
-Wii Fit Studio (Might be counterpick, needs testing, walk offs)
-Wooly World (The platforms are just too strange)
-Wrecking Crew (High Platforms, needs testing)
-Congo Jungle (Barrel is disruptive, needs testing)
-75m (Way too big, no main platforms to fight on)
-Skyworld (Cave of Life)
-Norfair (Lava takes up a lot of space)
-Mario Circuit (Walk off, Shy guys)

Then there's Stage Builder which could increase Neutral and Counter Pick lists.

 

[The_Altrox]

-Garden of Hope (Big, Peckish Aristocrab is disruptive)
-Congo Jungle (Barrel is disruptive, needs testing)

I think Hope should be for teams counterpick. But I don't think its as bad as some of the counterpicks you listed.

How was the barrel disruptive again? Hiding?

 

[Piford]

Of the Wii U stages, here's my list of Neutral and Counter-Pick.
Banned
-Kalos Pokemon League (Rayquaza stage boss, water carries you away)
-Orbital Gate Assualt (You can lose if you don't react to sudden transformations)
-Wooly World (The platforms are just too strange)
-Norfair (Lava takes up a lot of space)

We've only seen a picture rayquaza in the Kalos Pokemon League. We still can't say for sure that he's not a pokeball pokemon or exclusive to event mode or one of the other modes

You know Orbital Gate Assualt is going to change. I believe Sakurai said the stage is always in a set order. If you can't respond by knowing the timing of the stage, then at least you can pay attention to what happening around you. If a player can't react to the transformations thats completely their fault, and we should ban a stage because of that.

I don't believe we have ever banned a stage for odd platform placement, so that's not a good reason to ban Wooly World, especially before the game is even out.

Norfair was a legal counter pick in brawl, but was banned because of ledge stalling. With the new ledge mechanics, this stage could easily be legal.