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Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

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GroundZero996

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There's no point in adding another barrier of entry into Smash and another reason for TO's to dispute. Even though it will be easy for larger tournaments, smaller tournaments and scenes not completely involved in the standard competitive Smash scene will have trouble ensuring all the stages are present. You're right in saying that they are easy to share and over time, most everyone will have them. We're the community that runs one of it's major games off of SD cards. But, it's still a hassle to check if every WiiU has the stages.

It's not hard to modify these stages also. A player could raise the stage up by one level or remove a block from the main stage. Small problems like these will arise and if unnoticed, muddies the validity of the competition. Again, we could check every WiiU or have the TO personally upload the stages. However, it's still a hassle.

Also, what stages will we make and how many should we make? There are effective an infinite number of appropriate custom stages we can make. Even if the community does happen to agree on what stages to use, some TO is going to want another one and run it in their tournaments, separating local communities even more. The Smash community already has problems agreeing on rulesets. There is no need to make it worse. The second problem is what stages will we make. We'd have to make stage with a purpose or otherwise we'd just have stages for the sake of having them. However, we could make stages that shift the game to favor one group of characters over another

The biggest problem is for the individuals, and not necessarily the players already into the competitive scene. If custom stages are implemented, the current competitive community will just get them and move on. But, for new players this is a huge issue. At least with our ruleset, we still use all the components that are already in the game. If we use custom stages, we seperate ourselves further from the rest of the player base. Smash games not only have so many different rules compared to other competitive games, but between the different Smash games themselves. It will only make it harder to attract new competitive players and keep them in the scene if they have to add the custom stages to the rules they have to learn and then actually learn the fundamentals of the game.

I'm sorry but these feel like incredible superficial problems. As long as the TOs are the only ones that place the new stages on the event consoles modification should not be an issue. Adding one rather simple thing for "TO's to dispute" seems like a small price to pay for what could be a very useful tool IF and only IF the WiiU doesn't have enough viable stages.

As for what stages to make clearly that's something that a community of highly skilled players and designers like those who worked on PM should work together on. You could even have custom stage Tournaments, where only these custom stages are allowed in order to test them.

As for new players I don't see how this is a problem. Do new player really just wander into a venue without taking any time whatsoever to read up on the rules and stages that are allowed? If we worry so much about new players not understanding the oh-so-complex working of our competitive scene then why aren't we playing on any map, FFA, with items and Smash Balls turned on high? I come from the SC2 competitive scene were then landscape changes all the time. Somehow new players manage to break in.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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Excuse me. I was under the impression that DK64 was a banned stage in Melee, so why is that considered solid?
 

Plain Yogurt

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Depends on how they scale the stage (circle-camping was the banning reason, yes?). The character models grew from Melee to Brawl, so maybe this stage'll work better with larger characters? I actually have no idea what the story behind this stage is.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Depends on how they scale the stage (circle-camping was the banning reason, yes?). The character models grew from Melee to Brawl, so maybe this stage'll work better with larger characters? I actually have no idea what the story behind this stage is.
That's basically the reason. This video demonstrates how Peach could play keepaway for days from some of the slower characters.

However, you're also right that the Brawl and Smash 4 models are scaled up compared to Melee, so the ported stages feel comparatively smaller. This is most obvious on Corneria. So IMO Kongo Jungle will deserve a re-evaluation.
 

allshort17

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I'm sorry but these feel like incredible superficial problems. As long as the TOs are the only ones that place the new stages on the event consoles modification should not be an issue. Adding one rather simple thing for "TO's to dispute" seems like a small price to pay for what could be a very useful tool IF and only IF the WiiU doesn't have enough viable stages.

As for what stages to make clearly that's something that a community of highly skilled players and designers like those who worked on PM should work together on. You could even have custom stage Tournaments, where only these custom stages are allowed in order to test them.

As for new players I don't see how this is a problem. Do new player really just wander into a venue without taking any time whatsoever to read up on the rules and stages that are allowed? If we worry so much about new players not understanding the oh-so-complex working of our competitive scene then why aren't we playing on any map, FFA, with items and Smash Balls turned on high? I come from the SC2 competitive scene were then landscape changes all the time. Somehow new players manage to break in.
Yes actually. Players do come into tournaments often with researching the rules because most of the other competitive play with rulesets that are already the game's default or the competitive rules are clearly defined. Many players come into tournaments not knowing stage lists, how to strike, or even the fact we play with stocks.
 

GroundZero996

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Yes actually. Players do come into tournaments often with researching the rules because most of the other competitive play with rulesets that are already the game's default or the competitive rules are clearly defined. Many players come into tournaments not knowing stage lists, how to strike, or even the fact we play with stocks.
Sounds like their problem... trying to break into a scene without doing your homework? doesn't sound like the type of player you really want in the long run anyway.
 
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Davis-Lightheart

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Yes actually. Players do come into tournaments often with researching the rules because most of the other competitive play with rulesets that are already the game's default or the competitive rules are clearly defined. Many players come into tournaments not knowing stage lists, how to strike, or even the fact we play with stocks.
That really does sound like their problem for not doing their homework. A player like that probably wouldn't even know the match ups.

It's really not that inconvenient for them to realize their mistake and download the custom stage from any TO or professional player willing to hand it over.
 

allshort17

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Sounds like their problem... trying to break into a scene without doing your homework? doesn't sound like the type of player you really want in the long run anyway.
Entry doesn't have to be the pretty method where they find a tournament on Smashboards neatly posted and decide to go. Many player are introduced into the scene because there happens to be a tournament somewhere they usually go, like their school or favorite local game store. Places like these are where rules can be obscure and because there are so many options, a player wouldn't think some parts of the game would be changed when they are.

I'm not really trying to fight about this one rule exclusively. If custom stages were in, I wouldn't be mad and would play on them like anyone else. I actually like larger stage lists. I just think that the amount of rules in general is one of the key factors to why competitive Smash isn't as big or growing as it should. Adding custom stage just goes against my ideology and would perpetuate the wrong mentality on how the competitive game should be approach. This discussion's for a different place though (but I would love to talk about it with someone.)

Let's just say that I don't even think your points are completely wrong and that adding custom stages wouldn't kill me.
 

LiteralGrill

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Remember this, new players are whats keeps the scene growing and alive. They are usually the ones who fill the pot so big name players can get a big prize and afford to keep traveling for events. They are the ones who may someday become the big names of the future, or eventually run events of their own.

If you displease the newcomers from the small scene, you hurt our entire scene as a whole. Just remember this when talking about rules and such players.
 

Terotrous

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I'll reserve judgement on Big Battlefield until I play it, but my gut reaction was doubles only.
 

Piford

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A Bunch off pictures came out

There's details of Jungle Hijynx
Wuhu Island confirmed to be like Delphino and Skyloft
Edit:
Orbital Gate looks like it has 3 Stages (Great Fox, Missile. 3 Arwings), none of them look problematic
Kalos Pokemon League has Rayquaza fly by, not sure if its a hazard. Seems to be minor hazards, but only fire may be problematic
Gamer has randomized layout
Edit2:
Mario Circuit lands at some point on the track, but it doesn't look as though the racers interfere at all.
 
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guedes the brawler

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for custom stages, about the "what layout should we use"... couldn't we just use layouts that mimick banned stages, but "fixed"?

for example, what if we made a stage like the first part of Jungle Hijinx, or the Acorn Plains part of MKU? maybe the upper right corner of Palutena temple...
 

Piford

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for custom stages, about the "what layout should we use"... couldn't we just use layouts that mimick banned stages, but "fixed"?

for example, what if we made a stage like the first part of Jungle Hijinx, or the Acorn Plains part of MKU? maybe the upper right corner of Palutena temple...
I think we need to prove these stages banned before trying to recreate them in stage builder. Jungle Hijinx could work if the cooldown prevents camping, and Mushroom Kingdom U isn't that bad.
 

ParanoidDrone

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Has anyone played some matches on Tortimer Island? I made a thread on it yesterday but it got buried underneath the Direct hype. (Super bad timing on my part, I should have seen it coming.)



R.I.P. Legal Kalos
Oh god Siebold's room is Lakebed Temple: The Smash Bros. Stage. And IIRC from the Direct, Wikstrom's room has a pair of swords fall into the stage where the fire pillars would be. I do wonder how it'll transition between the rooms though.

Looks like another target for stage research when I get the game.
 
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Piford

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Kalos League might be the Pokemon stadium 2 of this game
 
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Terotrous

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Kalos League might be the Pokemon stadium 2 of this game
Pokemon Stadium 2 is also in the game. Both likely banned due to the abundance of good stages in the Wii U version, there's no specific need to put up with them.
 

Doval

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Pokemon Stadium 2 is also in the game. Both likely banned due to the abundance of good stages in the Wii U version, there's no specific need to put up with them.
You keep saying this as if the number of stages had any relevance. Either a stage is legit or it's not.
 
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Terotrous

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You keep saying this as if the number of stages had any relevance. Either a stage is legit or it's not.
There's no question that it is relevant. In a game which has very few legit stages, the criteria will be relaxed a bit. This is why Halberd is legal in Brawl but banned in PM.
 

Doval

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There's no question that it is relevant. In a game which has very few legit stages, the criteria will be relaxed a bit. This is why Halberd is legal in Brawl but banned in PM.
I'm not saying it literally can't happen that people will take it into consideration - I'm saying it's wrong to do so. To ban stage X on the basis that there's already N legal stages you need to establish a total order on the legality of stages (that is, you need to able to say that stage A is more, less, or equally legal than B for all A and B.)

The first problem is that the notion of legality is ambiguous and subjective. The second problem is that the choice of cutoff number N is subjective and arbitrary. The third problem is that you're banning things based on artificial rules instead of deciding what's ban-worthy objectively and then coming up with rules to support what you're left with. A different set of rules results in different bans.

Bans should be warranted and based on discrete, well-defined, reasonably objective criteria and solid evidence that the stage breaks those criteria.
 
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Terotrous

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It really all comes down to whether you're using a whitelist or a blacklist approach. With a whitelist, you need to demonstrate how the metagame is enhanced by a stage being legal, with a blacklist, you need to show how it is harmed by having that stage be legal. Different people have different opinions about which approach is better.

In general, I favour the whitelist approach, because ultimately I don't think many of the border cases really bring anything interesting to the table that's worth putting up for them for several months until it becomes obvious just how broken they are. Even with the 3DS version's crummy stagelist, the metagame doesn't appear to be seriously hampered by the low amount of legal stages. You basically need to get 5 stages so you can have DSR in a 3/5 set, and anything else is gravy.
 
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Doval

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It really all comes down to whether you're using a whitelist or a blacklist approach. With a whitelist, you need to demonstrate how the metagame is enhanced by a stage being legal, with a blacklist, you need to show how it is harmed by having that stage be legal. Different people have different opinions about which approach is better.

In general, I favour the whitelist approach, because ultimately I don't think many of the border cases really bring anything interesting to the table that's worth putting up for them for several months until it becomes obvious just how broken they are. Even with the 3DS version's crummy stagelist, the metagame doesn't appear to be seriously hampered by the low amount of legal stages. You basically need to get 5 stages so you can have DSR in a 3/5 set, and anything else is gravy.
You won't find out if a stage adds anything to the meta if you ban it because you don't *think* it contributes anything. If a stage is broken, let it be proven in competition that it dominates and has no counters, or show beyond any doubt that it suffers from precisely the same irredeemable problem as some other illegal stage. Otherwise leave it alone.
 
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Terotrous

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You won't find out if a stage adds anything to the meta if you ban it because you don't *think* it contributes anything.
Perhaps, but it's basically a gamble to add it. At current, people are generally satisfied with the meta with the notion of what stages should be legal. Adding new stages has the potential to enhance the meta, but it also has the potential to detract from the competitive experience, pushing players back to Melee / PM and hurting the overall scene for Smash 4.

We're kind of stuck with a catch-22 situation. Right now, Smash 4 needs to prove itself as one of the premiere competitive games out there, which generally suggests that we shouldn't tinker with the ruleset too much during this critical early phase lest it create a backlash or ruin a major. Unfortunately, it's pretty obvious that once the competitive set gets standardized, it probably won't change much after that.

That being said, I'm definitely willing to sacrifice a couple potentially good stages for the sake of Smash 4 becoming popular. You can always play those stages in funsies.
 
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Doval

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Perhaps, but it's basically a gamble to add it. At current, people are generally satisfied with the meta with the notion of what stages should be legal. Adding new stages has the potential to enhance the meta, but it also has the potential to detract from the competitive experience, pushing players back to Melee / PM and hurting the overall scene for Smash 4.

We're kind of stuck with a catch-22 situation. Right now, Smash 4 needs to prove itself as one of the premiere competitive games out there, which generally suggests that we shouldn't tinker with the ruleset too much during this critical early phase lest it create a backlash or ruin a major. Unfortunately, it's pretty obvious that once the competitive set gets standardized, it probably won't change much after that.

That being said, I'm definitely willing to sacrifice a couple potentially good stages for the sake of Smash 4 becoming popular. You can always play those stages in funsies.
Smash 4 will probably be fine. It doesn't have any of Brawl's extreme flaws, the franchise sells more copies than any other fighter, it has a low skill barrier, and it's not mutually exclusive with Melee. Brawl managed to displace Melee depite all its flaws, after all.

Not to mention, it's probably the first really successful handheld fighting game.
 
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Terotrous

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Smash 4 will probably be fine. It doesn't have any of Brawl's extreme flaws, the franchise sells more copies than any other fighter, it has a low skill barrier, and it's not mutually exclusive with Melee. Brawl managed to displace Melee depite all its flaws, after all.
I don't know, crap like this worries me:

http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/03/evo...super-smash-bros-melee-or-super-smash-bros-4/

There seriously should be no question whatsoever about including the most recent game in one of the most prominent fighting franchises for at least a couple years, but Brawl was so bad that a lot of people are questioning Smash 4 before it even gets started.


Not to mention, it's probably the first really successful handheld fighting game.
There's been a couple others before, most notably Jump Ultimate Stars and Bleach: the Blade of Fate, but it's not really that relevant since obviously almost all tournaments will run the Wii U version once it comes out.
 

Doval

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I don't know, crap like this worries me:

http://shoryuken.com/2014/10/03/evo...super-smash-bros-melee-or-super-smash-bros-4/

There seriously should be no question whatsoever about including the most recent game in one of the most prominent fighting franchises for at least a couple years, but Brawl was so bad that a lot of people are questioning Smash 4 before it even gets started.
Melee and Smash 4 are sufficiently different to both warrant a spot. It's a false dilemma. Melee is a lot like Street Fighter 2 - people will probably still play it 10 years from now. The real issue is the bias for traditional fighters; it's amazing that Smash made it to Evo at all.
There's been a couple others before, most notably Jump Ultimate Stars and Bleach: the Blade of Fate, but it's not really that relevant since obviously almost all tournaments will run the Wii U version once it comes out.
None of those ever came close to Smash's popularity. I don't think it's completely irrelevant because it brings in a ton of new players that still have a fair chance of competing even without access to a Wii U.
 
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Terotrous

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Melee and Smash 4 are sufficiently different to both warrant a spot. It's a false dilemma. The real issue is the bias for traditional fighters; it's amazing that Smash made it to Evo at all.
They've sort of gotten over this in the last couple years. I don't see "Smash is not a legitimate fighting game cuz no combos" nearly as much anymore.

That being said, I don't know if we want to push it by putting a bunch of terrible stages on the EVO roster.


None of those ever came close to Smash's popularity. I don't think it's completely irrelevant because it brings in a ton of new players that still have a fair chance of competing even without access to a Wii U.
To be fair, almost nothing reaches Smash's popularity. By that metric, Guilty Gear and Soul Calibur are also irrelevant games.

It's also not clear how much popularity Smash 4 3DS will have. Clearly not nearly as much as the Wii U version.
 

Doval

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To be fair, almost nothing reaches Smash's popularity. By that metric, Guilty Gear and Soul Calibur are also irrelevant games.

It's also not clear how much popularity Smash 4 3DS will have. Clearly not nearly as much as the Wii U version.
Fair point, but Jump Ultimate Stars barely even registers on the radar at all. Guilty Gear and the like made it to the tournament big leagues.

I hightly doubt Smash for Wii U will move more copies. There just aren't that many Wii U owners compared to 3DS and I'd wager a good portion of them bought the 3DS version anyways. I'm sure it'll be the version of choice for tournaments though.
 

Piford

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Pokemon Stadium 2 is also in the game. Both likely banned due to the abundance of good stages in the Wii U version, there's no specific need to put up with them.
If there's no major flaws with them, then there should be no reason to ban the stage. There should be no cap to the number of stages and we should aim to have as close to the full stage roster as possible. More stages add balance and variety to the game and will help new players from being bombarded with rules and bans and such.
 

smashmachine

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Kalos is gonna be banned, that fire thing is much worse than anything on PS2, so just let it go

besides even without it Wuhu Island seems like it would slot in to replace it anyway, so whatever
 

Piford

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Kalos is gonna be banned, that fire thing is much worse than anything on PS2, so just let it go

besides even without it Wuhu Island seems like it would slot in to replace it anyway, so whatever
We can't just ban it because we see fire. They clearly take scene shots to show off the game. What if the fire only shows up for 3 seconds and its on a timer? Then its most likely fine. Well need to play the stage to find out. Also there shouldn't be "slotting in" to replace stages. Wuhu Island legality is completely independent of Kalos's
 

Terotrous

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Wuhu Island legality is completely independent of Kalos's
Except that it isn't, as we discussed before about redundancy. Multiple similar stages has implications for stage striking.

People really just need to let this idea go that every stage is innocent until proven guilty. Part of the design methodology of this game is to create some stages that are similar but either do / don't have hazards because the designers realize there's a community out there that doesn't like them.
 

Piford

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Except that it isn't, as we discussed before about redundancy. Multiple similar stages has implications for stage striking.

People really just need to let this idea go that every stage is innocent until proven guilty. Part of the design methodology of this game is to create some stages that are similar but either do / don't have hazards because the designers realize there's a community out there that doesn't like them.
But Kalos Pokemon League looks nothing like Wuhu Island. Thats like saying in melee we should ban dream land, Yoshi's Story, and Fountain of dreams from melee because they're all one base platforms with three smaller platforms that form an upright triangle just like battlefield.
 
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Doval

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Except that it isn't, as we discussed before about redundancy. Multiple similar stages has implications for stage striking.

People really just need to let this idea go that every stage is innocent until proven guilty. Part of the design methodology of this game is to create some stages that are similar but either do / don't have hazards because the designers realize there's a community out there that doesn't like them.
I know I've brought up my objections to your opionion before but I'd like to point out that "innocent until proven guilty" is how pretty much every other competitive fighting game community operates. People cry foul about all sorts of things all the time (just browse these boards). Most of the time it turns out to have a counter or when the meta develops something else turns out to be more effective.

We're not in a position to judge what's OP or unfair or problematic until we've run multiple tournaments and see the top players consistently win using that mechanic, and even then you still need to wait to see if a counter turns up.

Kalos has fire? Use it! Unless it kills people randomly with no warning, it's fair game. Your character can't handle Kalos? Strike it, ban it from the set or pick another character. All players have equal access to all characters and equal access to Kalos's hazards.

Being ban-happy makes our community look like scrubs. I highly recommend you read Playing to Win, especially sections Introducing ... the Scrub and What Should Be Banned? Sirlin has over a decade of experience as both a tournament player and game designer. He's well respected and knows what he's talking about.
 

Piford

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Here are my thoughts on the GameXplain footage

Kalos Pokemon league definitely needs to be played on. There should be no definitely legal or definitely banned.
Yoshi's Wooly World is definitely strange, but nothing seems inherently wrong with it.
The Barrels in Jungle Hijinx will either make circle camping extremely easy or near impossible, hard to tell.
Orbital Gate look fine assuming its not random.
Wrecking Crew looks a lot better than I thought it did, but it's hard to tell whats going on.
Mario Circuit looks like a better Rainbow Road, with a more unique transition layout and less intrusive racers.
Great Cave Offensive looks like the most legal stage ever /s
Edit:
Pyrosphere looks good until a certain someone shows up
Edit 2:
Wuhu's definitely fine
and we need to give GameXplain props, coming in clutch with all these videos.
 
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Starbound

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Mario Circuit is honestly fine. It's seriously a better Rainbow Road and Rainbow Road isn't even that bad.

Kalos League, Wrecking Crew and Wooly World need more testing.

Gonna give Orbital Gate a no for now. Looks like there's way too much going on with it.

Jungle Hijinxs looks super easy to circle camp and the falling ground isn't doing it any favors.

Wuhu Island joins Skyloft as a Delfino ripoff. Should be fine.
 
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Untouch

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Looks like kalos' hazards don't last very long, and aren't TOO obtrusive. Counterpick maybe?

Anyways, from that pool of videos, all the stages look LEGAL at minimum, maybe counterpicks.

Only one not is the DKCR stage, because camping would be too easy, and the stage breaks.
We haven't seen enough of the wrecking crew stage, it looks like the bombs damage players.
 
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