Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[smashmachine]

They were considered good, but not amazing. They were fluctuating between upper mid and high tier. The removal of stages like Brinstar, Delphino, and Frigate Opheron basically got rid of their worst stages, and made most of their best stages starters

no, they rose because people actually realized how to chaingrab with the Ice Climbers, this just solidified their position against the rest of the cast

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

no, they rose because people actually realized how to chaingrab with the Ice Climbers, this just solidified their position against the rest of the cast

Nevertheless, chaingrabs were the main resaon why walk-off stages were banned (that was the main conversation, by the way) and since they're removed, walk-offs can be legalized as counters.

 

[Jaxas]

no, they rose because people actually realized how to chaingrab with the Ice Climbers, this just solidified their position against the rest of the cast

Knowing how to CG correctly doesn't do much when the stage flies off, flips, or shoots lava at you to either disrupt you or kill you too...

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Let's chanfe the subject and talk about this potential list

Spoiler

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Doubles Only?)
- Lylat Cruise
- Miiverse (whether or not we should consider this as Battlefield is unknown)​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Island
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8)
- Luigi's Mansion
- Woolly World
- Gamer
- Skyloft
- Coliseum
- Castle Siege
- Halberd
- Norfair
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Wii Fit Studio
- Boxing Ring
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Windy Hill Zone
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl)
- Mario Galaxy
- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- Jungle Hijinxs
- Bridge of Eldin
- Skyworld
- Onett
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokemon League
- Garden of Hope
- Wrecking Crew
​

BANNED

- 75 m
- Temple
- Pyrosphere (Thank you, Ridley!)
- Great Cave Offensive
- Palutena's Temple
- Gaur Plain (Thank you, Metal Face!)
- Wily Castle (Thank you, Yellow Devil!)
- Pac-Land
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

 

[Zwzchow]

Let's chanfe the subject and talk about this potential list

Spoiler

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield (Doubles Only)
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64 (Doubles Only?)
- Lylat Cruise
- Miiverse (whether or not we should consider this as Battlefield is unknown)​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Island
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8)
- Luigi's Mansion
- Woolly World
- Gamer
- Skyloft
- Coliseum
- Castle Siege
- Halberd
- Norfair
- Port Town Aero Dive
- Pokemon Stadium 2
- Wii Fit Studio
- Boxing Ring
- Pilotwings
- Wuhu Island
- Windy Hill Zone
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl)
- Mario Galaxy
- Mushroom Kingdom U
- Yoshi's Island (Melee)
- Jungle Hijinxs
- Bridge of Eldin
- Skyworld
- Onett
- Orbital Gate Assault
- Kalos Pokemon League
- Garden of Hope
- Wrecking Crew
​

BANNED

- 75 m
- Temple
- Pyrosphere (Thank you, Ridley!)
- Great Cave Offensive
- Palutena's Temple
- Gaur Plain (Thank you, Metal Face!)
- Wily Castle (Thank you, Yellow Devil!)
- Pac-Land
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

Hmmm personally I have a few stuff that I feel should be struck off (Or at least be put on questionable)
Gamer: Angry mom too stronk. May have cave of life layout

Wii Fit studio: ehhhh walk offs?
Coliseum, Bridge of Eldin: Same as above
Mario Galaxy: Big, walk offs, screwy gravity
Skyworld: Cave of life

I personally don't feel like either mario circuits should be in especially Brawl's

Then again as @ Piford said we wont know unless we test them out
Except for the boss stages, go home bosses

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Hmmm personally I have a few stuff that I feel should be struck off (Or at least be put on questionable)
Gamer: Angry mom too stronk. May have cave of life layout

Wii Fit studio: ehhhh walk offs?
Coliseum, Bridge of Eldin: Same as above
Mario Galaxy: Big, walk offs, screwy gravity
Skyworld: Cave of life

I personally don't feel like either mario circuits should be in especially Brawl's

Then again as @ Piford said we wont know unless we test them out
Except for the boss stages, go home bosses

The walk-offs were addad due to the removal of chaingrabs, meaning that even if they're walk-offs, you need to KO your opponents the ol' fashioned way!

I knew Mario Galaxy would be confusing, I just wanted to see if somebody agrees. Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8) essentially has the same concept than Port Town Aero Dive, which could be a counter in brawl if the TO agreed. And this is a pre-launch list, of course it's not going to be 100% perfect!

Spoiler

UPDATED

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield: doubles only due to size
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64: whether it's at its original or Melee size is unknown (Melee's bigger, BTW)
- Lylat Cruise: was a counter in Brawl but could be a starter to have an odd number of starters
- Miiverse: once released, Lylat Cruise should be a counter unless Kongo Jungle 64 is reverted to its original size​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Plaza: was a counter in Brawl
- Luigi's Mansion: was a counter in Brawl
- Skyloft: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Coliseum: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Castle Siege: was a counter in Brawl
- Halberd: was a counter in Brawl
- Norfair: was a counter in Brawl
- Port Town Aero Dive: was a counter in Brawl
- Pokemon Stadium 2: was a counter in Brawl
- Wii Fit Studio: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Boxing Ring: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Pilotwings: there are hazards, but appear for a very short time and are very hard to get hit by
- Wuhu Island: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Windy Hill Zone: (slow) windmill platforms and slightly curved layout, northing OP
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl): walk-offs could be legal now, so its legality is questionned
- Mushroom Kingdom U: transforming stage, beanstalk section in a scrolling section
- Woolly World: second form leaves a lot of palces to Meteor Smash opponents
- Yoshi's Island (Melee): yellow blocks can give a Meteor Smash section when flipping, walk-offs should be legal
- Gamer: 5-Volt gives high knockback, however it may be predicatble
- Jungle Hijinxs: dual-plane system could be problematic, background plane gives more knockback
- Bridge of Eldin: King Bulbin leaves a hole the middle of the stage, giving Meteor Smash possibilities, walk-off
- Skyworld: when a platform is destroyed, the cloud beneath doesn't absorb Meteor Smashes
- Onett: that black van, overly complex layout
- Orbital Gate Assault: multiple stages, whether or not the Airwings deal damage is unknown
- Kalos Pokemon League: multiple stages, Flood Chamber can give easy SDs
- Garden of Hope: Peckish Aristocrab gives considerable damage, but could be avoided
- Wrecking Crew: breakable walls and ladders, barrels can trap opponents, stage lowers in a seemingly predictable pattern
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy: confusing gravity
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8): certain section gives walls and/or ceilings, making it harder to KO
- 75 m: too big, springs are OP
- Temple: too big
- Pyrosphere: thank you, Ridley!
- Great Cave Offensive: WAY too big, danger zones are OP
- Palutena's Temple: WAY too big
- Gaur Plain: thank you, Metal Face!
- Wily Castle: thank you, Yellow Devil!
- Pac-Land: scrolling stage = blastzones are never in the same location in the stage
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random: no more problem with the placement of Omega Stages in the stage ruleset


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

 

[Zwzchow]

The walk-offs were addad due to the removal of chaingrabs, meaning that even if they're walk-offs, you need to KO your opponents the ol' fashioned way!

I knew Mario Galaxy would be confusing, I just wanted to see if somebody agrees. Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8) essentially has the same concept than Port Town Aero Dive, which could be a counter in brawl if the TO agreed. And this is a pre-launch list, of course it's not going to be 100% perfect!

Spoiler

UPDATED

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield: doubles only due to size
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64: whether it's at its original or Melee size is unknown (Melee's bigger, BTW)
- Lylat Cruise: was a counter in Brawl but could be a starter to have an odd number of starters
- Miiverse: once released, Lylat Cruise should be a counter unless Kongo Jungle 64 is reverted to its original size​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Plaza: was a counter in Brawl
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8): similar to Port Town Aero Dive, concept-wise
- Luigi's Mansion: was a counter in Brawl
- Skyloft: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Coliseum: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Castle Siege: was a counter in Brawl
- Halberd: was a counter in Brawl
- Norfair: was a counter in Brawl
- Port Town Aero Dive: was a counter in Brawl
- Pokemon Stadium 2: was a counter in Brawl
- Wii Fit Studio: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Boxing Ring: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Pilotwings: there are hazards, but appear for a very short time and are very hard to get hit by
- Wuhu Island: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Windy Hill Zone: (slow) windmill platforms and slightly curved layout, northing OP
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl): walk-offs could be legal now, so its legality is questionned
- Mushroom Kingdom U: transforming stage, beanstalk section in a scrolling section
- Woolly World: second form leaves a lot of palces to Meteor Smash opponents
- Yoshi's Island (Melee): yellow blocks can give a Meteor Smash section when flipping, walk-offs should be legal
- Gamer: 5-Volt gives high knockback, however it may be predicatble
- Jungle Hijinxs: dual-plane system could be problematic, background plane gives more knockback
- Bridge of Eldin: King Bulbin leaves a hole the middle of the stage, giving Meteor Smash possibilities, walk-off
- Skyworld: when a platform is destroyed, the cloud beneath doesn't absorb Meteor Smashes
- Onett: that black van, overly complex layout
- Orbital Gate Assault: multiple stages, whether or not the Airwings deal damage is unknown
- Kalos Pokemon League: multiple stages, Flood Chamber can give easy SDs
- Garden of Hope: Peckish Aristocrab
- Wrecking Crew: breakable walls and ladders, barrels can trap opponents, stage lowers in a seemingly predictable pattern
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy: confusing gravity
- 75 m: too big, springs are OP
- Temple: too big
- Pyrosphere: thank you, Ridley!
- Great Cave Offensive: too big, danger zones are OP
- Palutena's Temple: WAY too big
- Gaur Plain: thank you, Metal Face!
- Wily Castle: thank you, Yellow Devil!
- Pac-Land: scrolling stage = blastzones are never in the same location in the stage
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random: no more problem with the placement of Omega Stages in the stage ruleset


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

Wasn't the problem with walk-offs was that the opponent could easily kick you offscreen?
aka walk-off camping
And MK8 Mario Circuit has layouts that have walls and ceilings that block off the blast zones

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Wasn't the problem with walk-offs was that the opponent could easily kick you offscreen?
aka walk-off camping
And MK8 Mario Circuit has layouts that have walls and ceilings that block off the blast zones

The camper can be knocked out by his opponent too, so it could balance things out. We could also ban walk-off camping in the game's ruleset, since the main reason they were banned were the chaingrabs, which are not in Smash 4.

I see the problem with MK8 Mario Circuit now....

Spoiler

UPDATED, ONCE AGAIN!!!

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield: doubles only due to size
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64: whether it's at its original or Melee size is unknown (Melee's bigger, BTW)
- Lylat Cruise: was a counter in Brawl but could be a starter to have an odd number of starters
- Miiverse: once released, Lylat Cruise should be a counter unless Kongo Jungle 64 is reverted to its original size​

COUNTER-PICK

- Delfino Plaza: was a counter in Brawl
- Luigi's Mansion: was a counter in Brawl
- Skyloft: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Coliseum: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Castle Siege: was a counter in Brawl
- Halberd: was a counter in Brawl
- Norfair: was a counter in Brawl
- Port Town Aero Dive: was a counter in Brawl
- Pokemon Stadium 2: was a counter in Brawl
- Wii Fit Studio: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Boxing Ring: walk-offs should be legal due to the removal of chaingrabs
- Pilotwings: there are hazards, but appear for a very short time and are very hard to get hit by
- Wuhu Island: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Windy Hill Zone: (slow) windmill platforms and slightly curved layout, northing OP
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl): walk-offs could be legal now, so its legality is questionned
- Mushroom Kingdom U: transforming stage, beanstalk section in a scrolling section
- Woolly World: second form leaves a lot of palces to Meteor Smash opponents
- Yoshi's Island (Melee): yellow blocks can give a Meteor Smash section when flipping, walk-offs should be legal
- Gamer: 5-Volt gives high knockback, however it may be predicatble
- Jungle Hijinxs: dual-plane system could be problematic, background plane gives more knockback
- Bridge of Eldin: King Bulbin leaves a hole the middle of the stage, giving Meteor Smash possibilities, walk-off
- Skyworld: when a platform is destroyed, the cloud beneath doesn't absorb Meteor Smashes
- Onett: that black van, overly complex layout
- Orbital Gate Assault: multiple stages, whether or not the Airwings deal damage is unknown
- Kalos Pokemon League: multiple stages, Flood Chamber can give easy SDs
- Garden of Hope: Peckish Aristocrab gives considerable damage, but could be avoided
- Wrecking Crew: breakable walls and ladders, barrels can trap opponents, stage lowers in a seemingly predictable pattern
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy: confusing gravity
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8): certain section gives walls and/or ceilings, making it harder to KO
- 75 m: too big, springs are OP
- Temple: too big
- Pyrosphere: thank you, Ridley!
- Great Cave Offensive: WAY too big, danger zones are OP
- Palutena's Temple: WAY too big
- Gaur Plain: thank you, Metal Face!
- Wily Castle: thank you, Yellow Devil!
- Pac-Land: scrolling stage = blastzones are never in the same location in the stage
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random: no more problem with the placement of Omega Stages in the stage ruleset


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

 

[Muster]

The camper can be knocked out by his opponent too, so it could balance things out.

This is not good reasoning at all. There are many reasons that still exist to ban walkoffs, including the lack of offstage game, the shortening of exchanges caused by camping at the edge, etc etc.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This is not good reasoning at all. There are many reasons that still exist to ban walkoffs, including the lack of offstage game, the shortening of exchanges caused by camping at the edge, etc etc.

We could also ban walk-off camping in the game's ruleset

 

[SaltyKracka]

Or perhaps we could just ban stages with walkoffs.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

Or perhaps we could just ban stages with walkoffs.

You know, this game is basically unreleased, we should wait and see how walk-offs plays in the game before banning them

Spoiler

UPDATE: FOURTH TIME!

STAGE LIST #1​

STARTER

- Miiverse
- Battlefield
- Big Battlefield: doubles only due to size
- Final Destination
- Town and City
- Smashville
- Kongo Jungle 64: doubles only due to size​

COUNTER-PICK

- Luigi's Mansion: was a counter in Brawl, most likely doubles due to size and layout
- Castle Siege: was a counter in Brawl
- Halberd: was a counter in Brawl
- Norfair: was a counter in Brawl
- Lylat Cruise: was a counter in Brawl
- Pokemon Stadium 2: was a counter in Brawl
- Pilotwings: there are hazards, but appear for a very short time and are very hard to get hit by
- Windy Hill Zone: (slow) windmill platforms and slightly curved layout, nothing OP
​

QUESTIONNABLE

- Mario Circuit (Brawl): walk-off
- Mario Circuit (Mario Kart 8): certain section gives walls and/or ceilings, making it harder to KO
- Delfino Plaza: was a counter in Brawl, but have walk-off sections
- Mushroom Kingdom U: transforming stage, beanstalk section in a scrolling section
- Woolly World: second form leaves a lot of palces to Meteor Smash opponents
- Yoshi's Island (Melee): yellow blocks can give a Meteor Smash section when flipping, walk-off
- Gamer: 5-Volt gives high knockback, however it may be predicatble
- Jungle Hijinxs: dual-plane system could be problematic, background plane gives more knockback
- Bridge of Eldin: King Bulbin leaves a hole the middle of the stage, giving Meteor Smash possibilities, walk-off
- Skyloft: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Skyworld: when a platform is destroyed, the cloud beneath doesn't absorb Meteor Smashes
- Coliseum: walk-off
- Onett: that black van, overly complex layout
- Port Town Aero Dive: was a counter in Brawl, but have walk-off sections
- Orbital Gate Assault: multiple stages, whether or not the Airwings deal damage is unknown
- Kalos Pokemon League: multiple stages, Flood Chamber can give easy SDs
- Garden of Hope: Peckish Aristocrab gives considerable damage, but could be avoided
- Wii Fit Studio: walk-off
- Wuhu Island: similar to Delfino Plaza, concept-wise
- Boxing Ring: walk-off
- Wrecking Crew: breakable walls and ladders, barrels can trap opponents, stage lowers in a seemingly predictable pattern
​

BANNED

- Mario Galaxy: confusing gravity
- 75 m: too big, springs are OP
- Temple: too big
- Pyrosphere: thank you, Ridley!
- Great Cave Offensive: WAY too big, danger zones are OP
- Palutena's Temple: WAY too big
- Gaur Plain: thank you, Metal Face!
- Wily Castle: thank you, Yellow Devil!
- Pac-Land: scrolling stage = blastzones are never in the same location in the stage
​

STAGE LIST #2​

UNIVERSAL

- Omega Random: no more problem with the placement of Omega Stages in the stage ruleset


​

Note: This is a pre-launch list and, like any other Smash game, may see some major changes as time goes by.

 

[Piford]

I'd say stages with walkoffs that have extremely close blast zones, like flat zone, definitely need a ban. From what we've seen, at least coliseum and wiki fit studio don't have this problem (testing could prove otherwise). Mario Circuit 8 wall and roof transformation only last for about 20 seconds. If a player knows the order of the stage, then he can simply avoid KOing in that direction. Also a strong enough hit to the roof would still cause a deadly stage spike where you either die or can't recover.

 

[Terotrous]

The camper can be knocked out by his opponent too, so it could balance things out.

The thing is you typically do it in situations where you have much more damage than your opponent, drastically skewing the risk / reward of that exchange.

For example, if I have 120%, and you have 10%, and I camp at the blastzone, you have no reason to want to approach me. Sure, you could win that exchange and get the KO, but you have much more to lose, because if I get the back throw even though you're only at 10% damage you'll still die (and then I can camp your next stock too!). This creates boring matches where the players just wait for each other to do something else.


Stages that have temporary walkoffs are usually okay (worst case I'm only waiting you out for 20 seconds or so), but permanent ones are generally problematic.

 

[Muster]

Two quotes, not an actual post or argument or anything

Banning ledge camping will be a lot more complicated and controversial than just taking out walk off stages, this is a huge hassle that really isn't needed (and definitely isn't wanted), especially around the birth of the Wii U competitive scene.

Don't act like walk offs are suddenly going to change on the Wii U version either, that's just stretching and not getting anyone anywhere.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Wasn't the problem with walk-offs was that the opponent could easily kick you offscreen?
aka walk-off camping
And MK8 Mario Circuit has layouts that have walls and ceilings that block off the blast zones

So what if the walls block the blast zone? It's not permanent. We tolerate Pokemon Stadium walls. And when the stage is moving, the walls will make players bounce with damage, and at high percents that's almost a guarantee knock into the other direction, especially if the player who knocks them that way predicts where they'll fly.

The thing is you typically do it in situations where you have much more damage than your opponent, drastically skewing the risk / reward of that exchange.

For example, if I have 120%, and you have 10%, and I camp at the blastzone, you have no reason to want to approach me. Sure, you could win that exchange and get the KO, but you have much more to lose, because if I get the back throw even though you're only at 10% damage you'll still die (and then I can camp your next stock too!). This creates boring matches where the players just wait for each other to do something else.


Stages that have temporary walkoffs are usually okay (worst case I'm only waiting you out for 20 seconds or so), but permanent ones are generally problematic.

I feel we should try to take into account the many wind custom moves for characters. These wind customs could potentially make walk off camping especially dangerous in many situations, making it incredibly disadvantaged for the camper. Just a thought.

Otherwise, I'm in agreement that permanent walk offs should be banned.

 

[Piford]

Banning ledge camping will be a lot more complicated and controversial than just taking out walk off stages, this is a huge hassle that really isn't needed (and definitely isn't wanted), especially around the birth of the Wii U competitive scene.

Don't act like walk offs are suddenly going to change on the Wii U version either, that's just stretching and not getting anyone anywhere.

But if the blastzones are far enough away that it requires more than like 0% to kill then it could be fine. And most characters have a projectile they can use to approach with, or a longer ranged attack. Remember that attacks beat grabs. Also characters grab ranges have been significantly shortened. We shouldn't ban stages for a game that not out yet for strategies that might exist. That's kinda like saying we need to ban Battlefield because the villager has the potential to camp under the stage.

 

[Muster]

But if the blastzones are far enough away that it requires more than like 0% to kill then it could be fine. And most characters have a projectile they can use to approach with, or a longer ranged attack. Remember that attacks beat grabs. Also characters grab ranges have been significantly shortened. We shouldn't ban stages for a game that not out yet for strategies that might exist. That's kinda like saying we need to ban Battlefield because the villager has the potential to camp under the stage.

No. No no no.
a blast zone being big enough that a 0% kill cannot happen still does not matter. Just because "most characters" have a projectile or longer range doesn't make it okay either, and the game IS out on 3ds, i've personally been the offender and victim of kills at less than 20% at the edge, which is in all ways unfair for the person killed.

Please read through the first few pages again, there are MANY reasons to ban stages with walkoffs just because they exist and are always present.

Villager under battlefield example is completely irrelevant, not only can it be easily seen if it happens (Just like sonic stalling under FD in brawl), it also isn't a strategy that has existed for all 4 previous games. (including the game on the 3ds with an identical roster and set of gameplay mechanics!) It also only applies to a single character, where edge camping is almost universal.

You really just need to think this through. Walk offs are unfair, they always have been, and unless something radically changes in the next smash games, they always will be.

I feel we should try to take into account the many wind custom moves for characters. These wind customs could potentially make walk off camping especially dangerous in many situations, making it incredibly disadvantaged for the camper. Just a thought.

Otherwise, I'm in agreement that permanent walk offs should be banned.

Not all characters have wind custom moves, and they shouldn't have to switch to a custom they may not regularly use just because there is a walk off present in the stage.

 

[Piford]

No. No no no.
a blast zone being big enough that a 0% kill cannot happen still does not matter. Just because "most characters" have a projectile or longer range doesn't make it okay either, and the game IS out on 3ds, i've personally been the offender and victim of kills at less than 20% at the edge, which is in all ways unfair for the person killed.

Please read through the first few pages again, there are MANY reasons to ban stages with walkoffs just because they exist and are always present.

Villager under battlefield example is completely irrelevant, not only can it be easily seen if it happens (Just like sonic stalling under FD in brawl), it also isn't a strategy that has existed for all 4 previous games. (including the game on the 3ds with an identical roster and set of gameplay mechanics!) It also only applies to a single character, where edge camping is almost universal.

You really just need to think this through. Walk offs are unfair, they always have been, and unless something radically changes in the next smash games, they always will be.


Not all characters have wind custom moves, and they shouldn't have to switch to a custom they may not regularly use just because there is a walk off present in the stage.

I have definitely read through every page of this tread. I understand the potential problems a walk-off can create, but thats in theory, not in application. If it proves broken in application then it deserves to be banned, but we cant ban them all. They should be taken on a case by case basis. Walk-off camping could definitely have counter-strategies, but people might just be unwilling to learn them. And not only villager can stall under battlefield and fd, ROB, Diddy Kong, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Marth, Samus, Pikachu, Sonic, Toon Link, Wario, Yoshi, Lucario, and Peach can all do this. But if this became an issue in competitive play, would we ban Battlefield and FD?

 

[Muster]

I have definitely read through every page of this tread. I understand the potential problems a walk-off can create, but thats in theory, not in application. If it proves broken in application then it deserves to be banned, but we cant ban them all. They should be taken on a case by case basis. Walk-off camping could definitely have counter-strategies, but people might just be unwilling to learn them. And not only villager can stall under battlefield and fd, ROB, Diddy Kong, Jigglypuff, Kirby, Link, Marth, Samus, Pikachu, Sonic, Toon Link, Wario, Yoshi, Lucario, and Peach can all do this. But if this became an issue in competitive play, would we ban Battlefield and FD?

In theory? We've seen this happen for 4 games now! Nothing is going to change in the Wii U version, and nobody is going to wait to find out the same thing we've consistently found out before. They WILL be broken in application, every single one. I guarantee it.

People "might" be unwilling to learn counter strategies? The point here is that any counter to a camping player is a risky one, and can lead to a ridiculously early % Kill if you mess up, this isn't even exclusive to people camping at blast zones, a match can naturally progress near the edges and end with a person KO'd obscenely early, there's no excuse for that. They will all can and will be banned, and there's nothing that can change that.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, half those characters don't even have enough jumps or a good enough recovery to go under FD or battlefield in the first place. If you're trying to list some hypothetical situation where this happens here, don't. Stalling under stages happened in brawl with a few characters and was banned because it's easy to see happen and there is very little gray area involving it. Even if there was some quirk to those stages allowing certain characters to stall, it's still nothing compared to the imbalance walk offs put onto a game.

 

[Piford]

In theory? We've seen this happen for 4 games now! Nothing is going to change in the Wii U version, and nobody is going to wait to find out the same thing we've consistently found out before. They WILL be broken in application, every single one. I guarantee it.

People "might" be unwilling to learn counter strategies? The point here is that any counter to a camping player is a risky one, and can lead to a ridiculously early % Kill if you mess up, this isn't even exclusive to people camping at blast zones, a match can naturally progress near the edges and end with a person KO'd obscenely early, there's no excuse for that. They will all can and will be banned, and there's nothing that can change that.

I don't even know what you're trying to say here, half those characters don't even have enough jumps or a good enough recovery to go under FD or battlefield in the first place. If you're trying to list some hypothetical situation where this happens here, don't. Stalling under stages happened in brawl with a few characters and was banned because it's easy to see happen and there is very little gray area involving it. Even if there was some quirk to those stages allowing certain characters to stall, it's still nothing compared to the imbalance walk offs put onto a game.

Yeah those were characters it was possible with not that it was practical with. And most if not all the characters have an attack thats going to have a longer range than the other characters grab. If you know your character well you should be able to counter walk-off camping. For the few matchups that might have a problem, you have a stage strike were you would want to ban the stages. I practiced walk-off camping in the 3DS version, and its not that easy. Sure on some stages like Balloon Fight and Dream Land walk-off camping is extremely easy. But on some other stages like Gerudo Valley and Gaur Plains it doesn't work out as well. And saying past games isn't very strong, because the engines and between games are clearly different. How much could it hurt to be open to having walk-offs? It's not like I'm demanding they all be put in major tournaments, just that they should be thoroughly tested. People say walk-off camping is OP because it's not advantageous to them to learn strategies to the tactics since all the stages are banned anyways.

 

[Muster]

Yeah those were characters it was possible with not that it was practical with. And most if not all the characters have an attack thats going to have a longer range than the other characters grab. If you know your character well you should be able to counter walk-off camping. For the few matchups that might have a problem, you have a stage strike were you would want to ban the stages. I practiced walk-off camping in the 3DS version, and its not that easy. Sure on some stages like Balloon Fight and Dream Land walk-off camping is extremely easy. But on some other stages like Gerudo Valley and Gaur Plains it doesn't work out as well. And saying past games isn't very strong, because the engines and between games are clearly different. How much could it hurt to be open to having walk-offs. It's not like I'm demanding they all be put in major tournaments, just that they should be thoroughly tested. People say walk-off camping is OP because it's not advantageous to them to learn strategies to the tactics since all the stages are banned anyways.

You're just all over the place here. the engine between wii u and 3ds is going to be nearly identical, so it can be used as a reference point as well as previous game's experience, because the problem is consistent between ALL of these games.

All Matchups are completely changed by a walkoff, if we have walk offs, everyone will just waste stage strikes on them, rather than stages that they would need to strike off if walk offs weren't legal, it's a waste in all senses of the word.

Opening up walk offs will hurt a ton, trust me. People thoroughly test everything in the game, regardless of legality, so you don't need to worry about nobody ever selecting a walk off stage. We just won't have them at any tournaments ever.

Walk off camping is OP because it severely limits the amount of exchanges and options in a match, don't even try to lie about people not wanting to learn tactics.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

@ Muster

As you mentionned, stalling has been banned in other games as it ruined the game, we didn't ban stages that allowed stalling. Why couldn't we just ban walk-off camping instead of walk-off stages? It could allow for a different kind of match to play in a walk-off, and with the removal of chaingrabs, these stages are much less dangerous than they ever were!

 

[Muster]

@ Muster

As you mentionned, stalling has been banned in other games as it ruined the game, we didn't ban stages that allowed stalling. Why couldn't we just ban walk-off camping instead of walk-off stages? It could allow for a different kind of match to play in a walk-off, and with the removal of chaingrabs, these stages are much less dangerous than they ever were!

Like i mentioned before, Walk off camping isn't even the only problem. A match can naturally progress to the edge where a person gets KO'd obscenely early. And the other kind of stalling is universal for pretty much every stage, while walk off camping is exclusive to walk off stages.

 

[Piford]

@ Muster

As you mentionned, stalling has been banned in other games as it ruined the game, we didn't ban stages that allowed stalling. Why couldn't we just ban walk-off camping instead of walk-off stages? It could allow for a different kind of match to play in a walk-off, and with the removal of chaingrabs, these stages are much less dangerous than they ever were!

The main problem with banning just walk-off camping is that what do you define as walk-off camping, and when does the rule finally get violated. Also you would need some kind of rep to either watch the match or at least view the replay to determine if their is a problem.

@ Muster
The reason I'm "all over the place" is because i said all walk-offs need to be tested on their own, since they all have different attributes. I never said the engine was different in the 3DS to Wii U version. Also, no smart player would risky bringing the fight towards the blastzone because it might result in an early kill when they could've lived a lot longer. Also if walk-off camping is a big issue, why still keep them banned in doubles/triples/quadruples? If you can effectively walk-off camp 2 people simultaneously then those people probably deserved to die that early.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

I just prefer the old tried and true method of banning all stages with walk-offs that last long enough to be used to camp. Stages like Halberd and Prism Tower are exempt due to their nature.

 

[Piford]

I just prefer the old tried and true method of banning all stages with walk-offs that last long enough to be used to camp. Stages like Halberd and Prism Tower are exempt due to their nature.

How is that a tried and true method. In both Melee and Brawl, all walk-off stages were initially legal and then picked off one by one due to wave shining in melee and chain grabbing in brawl.

 

[Muster]

@ Muster
The reason I'm "all over the place" is because i said all walk-offs need to be tested on their own, since they all have different attributes. I never said the engine was different in the 3DS to Wii U version. Also, no smart player would risky bringing the fight towards the blastzone because it might result in an early kill when they could've lived a lot longer. Also if walk-off camping is a big issue, why still keep them banned in doubles/triples/quadruples? If you can effectively walk-off camp 2 people simultaneously then those people probably deserved to die that early.

No, you're all over the place due to the reverse-scatterbrained layout of your post, not to any points you're trying to make.

I mentioned the 3ds version as one of the games where this is applicable and your response is " the engine is different" so there's only so much i can go off of.
Matches can go in many ways that are out of the player's reach, and even a good player will be at a disadvantage once a rage afflicted other player gets a stock up on them and camps the edge.

Like i said before, and as mentioned many times in this thread you have claimed to read, there are many other reasons to ban walk offs, and that's why they're still gone in 2v2+

 

[Jaxas]

How about for now we just add Walk-Off stages to the "To Test" list, and once it comes out (or on the 3DS version) we experiment with having exactly 1 permanent walk-off legal? That way if you don't want to go there you can just ban it (theoretically on the Wii U we'll have enough stages to warrant 2 bans), but it's still in the testing pool.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I feel for now, permanent walk offs should stay away from normal tournaments, and tested using online tournaments once the Wii U version comes out. If walk off camping is proven to be an ineffectual strategy, then who knows? Personally, I think Muster's logic is sound for now. The only way I think walk off camping could ever be a less reliable strategy is if you're too close to the blast zone your grabs don't connect.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

Permanent walk-offs are probably not broken, but they do distort the game a lot. Base knockback in this game is very high which makes them extremely high variance, and we have a few characters who are greatly distorted in merit by the removal of off-stage play anyway (I'm pretty sure Little Mac benefits more from Bridge of Eldin than any character benefits from 75m, just think about that). I know a lot of the walk-off stages seem generally okay (Coliseum and Fitness Room, super tame looking, and Onett and Brawl's Mario Circuit are known to be very tame too), but IMO it's just the wrong battle to fight.

What I think is more critical is the transforming stage situation. As a full disclaimer I'm only speaking from my knowledge with the 3ds version, the Wii U Best Buy demo, and years of competitive Brawl experience so I don't have personal knowledge of a lot of these stages, but I nevertheless just feel this pure confidence in them. We have a ton of transformers, and IMO their presence is a sign that they're going to be just as important as non-transforming stages and a way to integrate player ability to deal with more diverse terrain without the permanent match implications coming in. Like MK8 Mario Circuit's walls and ceilings are a great example; we might not like these at all were the stage static, but as a dynamic stage, it's a very interesting skill test to deal with them. We really need to keep as many of these guys as possible legal, and just as much, we can't do stuff like have starter lists that are all static stages with the counterpick list full of transformers as that's just the wrong way to do things somehow putting the transforming stages in a lower legality status than the static ones and not just forcing players to learn to play on these stages which I think is the path that makes the best game in the end. I also seriously see so many people down on Mushroom Kingdom U, and it just drives me crazy as that stage is so absurdly good (I played it in the demo; if you watched video that wasn't of extraordinarily high video quality, you probably don't realize how telegraphed everything that stage does really is).

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

I feel for now, permanent walk offs should stay away from normal tournaments, and tested using online tournaments once the Wii U version comes out. If walk off camping is proven to be an ineffectual strategy, then who knows? Personally, I think Muster's logic is sound for now. The only way I think walk off camping could ever be a less reliable strategy is if you're too close to the blast zone your grabs don't connect.

We could also tru it out in the 3DS version to see if it is broken, since both ganes got the same engine.

If it does turn out to be broken, we either ban then or add a "all players must fight on the visible part of the stage (what is displayed on the screen)" rule, must like how we banned stalling, but not the stages that allowed it. If it's not, legalize walk-offs without any specific rule. Sinple enough?

 

[Piford]

How about for now we just add Walk-Off stages to the "To Test" list, and once it comes out (or on the 3DS version) we experiment with having exactly 1 permanent walk-off legal? That way if you don't want to go there you can just ban it (theoretically on the Wii U we'll have enough stages to warrant 2 bans), but it's still in the testing pool.

This is all I was saying. We should test the walk-offs. We don't need allow them in a major tournament, but we shouldn't write them off before release. How much can it hurt to test them? The problem with testing them is the 3DS version is the only 2 stages where they seem bearable are Gerudo Valley and Gaur Plains. Gerudo Valley is a pretty bad stage because of the bridge, and Gaur plains apparently has circle camping (still think GP should be allowed in at least doubles.)

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

This is all I was saying. We should test the walk-offs. We don't need allow them in a major tournament, but we shouldn't write them off before release. How much can it hurt to test them? The problem with testing them is the 3DS version is the only 2 stages where they seem bearable are Gerudo Valley and Gaur Plains. Gerudo Valley is a pretty bad stage because of the bridge, and Gaur plains apparently has circle camping (still think GP should be allowed in at least doubles.)

True, it is hard to test it on 3DS, but we only need to test if the walk-off camping mechanic is broken and depending on the results, I posted the different outcomes of walk-off stages right above you, @ Piford

And for Gaur Plains, the main reason it's banned is the HUGE hole in the middle, allowing easy KOs and SDs

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Like i mentioned before, Walk off camping isn't even the only problem. A match can naturally progress to the edge where a person gets KO'd obscenely early. And the other kind of stalling is universal for pretty much every stage, while walk off camping is exclusive to walk off stages.

What about gimps? Should we ban them too? Let's test walk offs, if they turn out to be too campeable with throws we can either ban them or even better, enforce a rule against it.

For example: If you spend over a second outside the visible part of the stage, you're punished.
(Can't think of a good punishment now, maybe the same one as pausing is good.)

It doesn't hurt to just test the stages. If there's an overwhelming problem, then let's ban them.

 

[Terotrous]

But if the blastzones are far enough away that it requires more than like 0% to kill then it could be fine. And most characters have a projectile they can use to approach with

Projectiles generally aren't great for breaking camp, it's quite easy to just jump over or shield at a distance, god forbid if the camper has a reflect or absorb move.

If you want to gain advantage out of your projectile you have to come close enough to apply pressure, which then puts you at the risk of the bad exchange that results in the ridiculously low percent gimp.

What I think is more critical is the transforming stage situation. As a full disclaimer I'm only speaking from my knowledge with the 3ds version, the Wii U Best Buy demo, and years of competitive Brawl experience so I don't have personal knowledge of a lot of these stages, but I nevertheless just feel this pure confidence in them. We have a ton of transformers, and IMO their presence is a sign that they're going to be just as important as non-transforming stages and a way to integrate player ability to deal with more diverse terrain without the permanent match implications coming in. Like MK8 Mario Circuit's walls and ceilings are a great example; we might not like these at all were the stage static, but as a dynamic stage, it's a very interesting skill test to deal with them.

I'm just going to chime in and say that I agree with this for the most part. Stages like Prism Tower and Mario Circuit Wii U look very legitimate and can likely be considered starters. However, there are some transforming stages where some of the transformations are very janky that are likely not desirable, for example Paper Mario 3DS with the third transformation.

In general, the rules for what makes a stage legitimate are slightly relaxed for transforming stages, though the stage has to spend at least most of the match being a good stage, and it can't ever be so massively disruptive that you can't play the game at all until it transforms again.

 

[Muster]

What about gimps? Should we ban them too? Let's test walk offs, if they turn out to be too campeable with throws we can either ban them or even better, enforce a rule against it.

For example: If you spend over a second outside the visible part of the stage, you're punished.
(Can't think of a good punishment now, maybe the same one as pausing is good.)

It doesn't hurt to just test the stages. If there's an overwhelming problem, then let's ban them.

Gimps actually require a set of skills involving predicting what the other character is going to try to do to get on stage, and countering so that they don't. An early kill due to blastzone of a walk off requires no risk or skill on the part of the attacker other than landing the first attack.

I'm not saying we shouldn't test the stages, i'm saying that we shouldn't do so at any tournaments, and that they should be banned until proven otherwise, which i'm confident won't happen.

people seem to forget that almost everything in the game is going to be tested and played on, it's not like those stages will be removed from the game if we start with them banned.

Mushroom Kingdom U, and it just drives me crazy as that stage is so absurdly good (I played it in the demo; if you watched video that wasn't of extraordinarily high video quality, you probably don't realize how telegraphed everything that stage does really is).

Doesn't mushroom kingdom U have the spiny puffer fish things, the icicles, and (post e3), Nabbit for hazards? Nabbit alone is apparently treated as a stage boss and can kidnap people.

Regarding other transforming stages, i'm pretty game for the rest of them. I'd like to see the Wooly World stage become a counterpick at least if it's not too janky, and wuhu island looks like delfino plaza X100

 

[Terotrous]

Does anyone have a video of post-e3 Mushroomy Kingdom?

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Gimps actually require a set of skills involving predicting what the other character is going to try to do to get on stage, and countering so that they don't. An early kill due to blastzone of a walk off requires no risk or skill on the part of the attacker other than landing the first attack.

I'm not saying we shouldn't test the stages, i'm saying that we shouldn't do so at any tournaments, and that they should be banned until proven otherwise, which i'm confident won't happen.

people seem to forget that almost everything in the game is going to be tested and played on, it's not like those stages will be removed from the game if we start with them banned.


Doesn't mushroom kingdom U have the spiny puffer fish things, the icicles, and (post e3), Nabbit for hazards? Nabbit alone is apparently treated as a stage boss and can kidnap people.

Regarding other transforming stages, i'm pretty game for the rest of them. I'd like to see the Wooly World stage become a counterpick at least if it's not too janky, and wuhu island looks like delfino plaza X100

That's the catch. We should test them before major tournaments because a lot of people will just ignore it if someone says "Hey, Walkoffs are legit. Why don't we play them?" We should test them before the Wii U version comes out.

 

[The Stoopid Unikorn]

That's the catch. We should test them before major tournaments because a lot of people will just ignore it if someone says "Hey, Walkoffs are legit. Why don't we play them?" We should test them before the Wii U version comes out.

All we need to do is give some time to American/Canadian players (like me), to try out these walk-offs and see if walk-off camping is indeed broken