Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[FallofBrawl]

The only problem I see with stages like Wuhu is camping during walk-off transitions (there are two I believe, a cliff one and a beach one) and there is a skidoo hazard on one transition. Other than that, it seems pretty good if we soft ban walk-off camping

 

[FEFIZ]

For me:

6 Stages:

3 Starters: (Final Destination, Battle Field and Yoshi's Land).

3 Counterpicks: (Arena Ferox, Tomadachi Life and Prisma Tower).

 

[Terotrous]

The only problem I see with stages like Wuhu is camping during walk-off transitions (there are two I believe, a cliff one and a beach one) and there is a skidoo hazard on one transition. Other than that, it seems pretty good if we soft ban walk-off camping

You can't really camp that much on transforming stages because eventually the platform is going to leave. You're actually giving the opponent stage control if you let them have the platform when it comes back, then you have to fight your way back on and they can edgeguard.

 

[Piford]

First Footage of Pac-Land

It's looks like a better Mushroomy Kingdom. I don't think it's too bad, but I'm skeptical.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

First Footage of Pac-Land

It's looks like a better Mushroomy Kingdom. I don't think it's too bad, but I'm skeptical.

This may sound a bit petty, but that stage looks ugly as sin.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

That stage is really ugly, and even if it is slow I'm not sure if it still can work. I may be one of the more liberal guys here, but even I'm skepitcal of that one.

I'm actually kind of hoping it's not legal worthy, because a stage that hideous doesn't deserve it. (Funny considering where my AV comes from.)

 

[Dragoomba]

First Footage of Pac-Land

It's looks like a better Mushroomy Kingdom. I don't think it's too bad, but I'm skeptical.

vomits profusely

 

[infomon]

oh holy crap that looks amazing. waaaay better than I'd even hoped

what is wrong with you people

MS paint land forever

 

[Zzuxon]

I will always have salt that the Maze is a 3ds exclusive stage.
That said, Pac-Land looks pretty cool too.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I can't help it, I find it beautiful in the strangest way guys. I just love those ugly old graphics, it reminds me of the old games I loved so much growing up <3

 

[Terotrous]

I really like the look of Pac-Land too, and that song is so good. It's too bad that stage would never be legal.

Unfortunately I don't think Pac Man lends himself to legal stages. His games are all full of walls.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Hey look, this leaked from Polygon on accident. http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/24/7064507/super-smash-bros-wii-u-8-player-smash-amiibo

Did the stage shrink, or is Ike just bigger? It's way too early for me to think straight.

 

[Terotrous]

I'm pretty sure Ike has a Super Mushroom in that picture. Even bending down, he's still way bigger than the others.

 

[Zwzchow]

Hey look, this leaked from Polygon on accident. http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/24/7064507/super-smash-bros-wii-u-8-player-smash-amiibo

Did the stage shrink, or is Ike just bigger? It's way too early for me to think straight.

How do you differentiate between PS1 and PS2? :/
Other than the form changes

 

[KlefkiHolder]

How do you differentiate between PS1 and PS2? :/
Other than the form changes

PS is longer, greener, different general blast zones. Different transformations.

PS2 is hella shiny.

Oh also PS has a darker background and PS2 grey and.... Shiny.

EDIT: I thought we knew PS2 was in the game already?

 

[Piford]

Hey look, this leaked from Polygon on accident. http://www.polygon.com/2014/10/24/7064507/super-smash-bros-wii-u-8-player-smash-amiibo

Did the stage shrink, or is Ike just bigger? It's way too early for me to think straight.

Well usually stage shrink, although i think terotrous is right.

 

[SneakyLink]

My 2 cents after playing with the 3ds version:
Starter:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Yoshi's Island
Prism Tower? (Could be a counter pick)

Counter pick:
Arena Ferox
Omega forms (of non final destination stages)

Ban:
Everything else

Some reasoning:
Reset Bomb forest: decent at first, but the second form has irregular design and a hazard.

Balloon Fight: provides advantage to Greninjavia shadow sneak, walk through blast lines, only if not launched, fish, and other hazards.

Pac Maze: unigue mechanic, but has hazards, somewhat irregular design, and power pellets visible to one player.

That's all for now.

 

[SonicZeroX]

Man why does everyone hate on Tomodachi. Tomodachi > Arena Ferox imo. At least there's no hard walls on Tomodachi.

 

[Terotrous]

Man why does everyone hate on Tomodachi. Tomodachi > Arena Ferox imo. At least there's no hard walls on Tomodachi.

I agree, if I was going to cut out one of the 6 stages, it'd definitely be Arena Ferox. It has considerably more jank.

 

[Flawed]

Stage Discussion Wii U Bans

-Palutena's temple
-Game & Wario 'Gamer'
-Kirby Great Cave Offensive
-Dr Wily's Castle
-Metroid Pyrosphere
-PacMan Land
-Gaur Plain
-Wrecking Crew
-75m
-Onett (may change)
-Skyworld
-Luigi's Mansion
-Norfair
-Yoshi's Island
-Temple
-Bridge of Edlin
-Mushroom Kingdom U

Edit: Pokemon Stadium
-Yoshi Wolly World
-Mario circuit brawl
-jungle hijinx

May change, based on feedback

This is our day 1 tournament stage ban list. What do you guys think. It leaves us with a lot of stages that are viable AND fun. Walk offs are no worry because chaingrabs are gone.

We get the game at Midnight here at work, and I've been assigned to unlock as much as possible on 2 of the 4 Wii U's all the way till 7:00 pm nov 21, when we have our first tournament for it. We have consecutive tournaments happening for the next 2 days after that as well.

Allthough one of the reasons for walk off bans is that it takes out a valid point of the game "recovery" We are going to be keeping them for the first few tournaments.

I aimed for this to be appealing to both crowds while taking out some of the more hazard filled stages. Jungle Hijinx is still up in the air untl I see how the stage breakage causes the game to progress.

If this is the wrong place, please direct me to the right place to post .

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I've said my piece on Wrecking Crew, it only has one very predictable hazard, which is a bucket falling on your head. At least let your players test to see how jank this stage could be with flying characters.

 

[Piford]

Stage Discussion Wii U Bans

-Palutena's temple
-Game & Wario 'Gamer'
-Kirby Great Cave Offensive
-Dr Wily's Castle
-Metroid Pyrosphere
-PacMan Land
-Gaur Plain
-Wrecking Crew
-75m
-Onett (may change)
-Skyworld
-Luigi's Mansion
-Norfair
-Yoshi's Island
-Temple
-Bridge of Edlin
-Mushroom Kingdom U

Edit: Pokemon Stadium
-Yoshi Wolly World
-Mario circuit brawl
-jungle hijinx

May change, based on feedback

This is our day 1 tournament stage ban list. What do you guys think. It leaves us with a lot of stages that are viable AND fun. Walk offs are no worry because chaingrabs are gone.

We get the game at Midnight here at work, and I've been assigned to unlock as much as possible on 2 of the 4 Wii U's all the way till 7:00 pm nov 21, when we have our first tournament for it. We have consecutive tournaments happening for the next 2 days after that as well.

Allthough one of the reasons for walk off bans is that it takes out a valid point of the game "recovery" We are going to be keeping them for the first few tournaments.

I aimed for this to be appealing to both crowds while taking out some of the more hazard filled stages. Jungle Hijinx is still up in the air untl I see how the stage breakage causes the game to progress.

If this is the wrong place, please direct me to the right place to post .

While this is pretty good for a day one tournament list, Pokemon Stadium 2, Yoshi's Wooly World, Luigi's Mansion, and Norfair could probably all be legal, as they don't have any extremely-uncompetative aspects to them.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Stage Discussion Wii U Bans

-Palutena's temple
-Game & Wario 'Gamer'
-Kirby Great Cave Offensive
-Dr Wily's Castle
-Metroid Pyrosphere
-PacMan Land
-Gaur Plain
-Wrecking Crew
-75m
-Onett (may change)
-Skyworld
-Luigi's Mansion
-Norfair
-Yoshi's Island
-Temple
-Bridge of Edlin
-Mushroom Kingdom U

Edit: Pokemon Stadium
-Yoshi Wolly World
-Mario circuit brawl
-jungle hijinx

May change, based on feedback

This is our day 1 tournament stage ban list. What do you guys think. It leaves us with a lot of stages that are viable AND fun. Walk offs are no worry because chaingrabs are gone.

We get the game at Midnight here at work, and I've been assigned to unlock as much as possible on 2 of the 4 Wii U's all the way till 7:00 pm nov 21, when we have our first tournament for it. We have consecutive tournaments happening for the next 2 days after that as well.

Allthough one of the reasons for walk off bans is that it takes out a valid point of the game "recovery" We are going to be keeping them for the first few tournaments.

I aimed for this to be appealing to both crowds while taking out some of the more hazard filled stages. Jungle Hijinx is still up in the air untl I see how the stage breakage causes the game to progress.

If this is the wrong place, please direct me to the right place to post .

Woah, slow down. Why ban Bridge of Eldin? Sure, it's too big for singles, but it should work well in doubles as a counter-pick or something, right?

 

[SaltyKracka]

Woah, slow down. Why ban Bridge of Eldin? Sure, it's too big for singles, but it should work well in doubles as a counter-pick or something, right?

...You mean besides the walkoffs, being huge, the bridge breaking, the bomb and moblin king, and promoting camping?

Might as well face it. BoE is a terrible competitive stage.

 

[Piford]

...You mean besides the walkoffs, being huge, the bridge breaking, the bomb and moblin king, and promoting camping?

Might as well face it. BoE is a terrible competitive stage.

Isn't it legal in the Japanese Brawl's double stagelist.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Isn't it legal in the Japanese Brawl's double stagelist.

No, that's an old persisting rumor that never will die for some reason. (The Ness can't be counterpicked to Saffron City in 64 is another one, that stage hasn't been legal in any way for years. I have no idea where these old rumors even come from )

 

[ShadyWolfe]

For Smash 3DS stage list:
Neutral - Battlefield
Counterpicks - Final Destination(Omegas included), Yoshi's Island, Tomodachi Life, and Prism Tower.

I don't really like the stages in Smash 3DS much for competitive or party smash but these seem like the most "balanced" stages.

 

[Flawed]

While this is pretty good for a day one tournament list, Pokemon Stadium 2, Yoshi's Wooly World, Luigi's Mansion, and Norfair could probably all be legal, as they don't have any extremely-uncompetative aspects to them.

We usually have a heavy turnout for anything smash, and believe me when I say its easier banning Norfair than letting someone lose on it. We've had some heated arguements and confrontations on that stage and a few others. I don't know if Pokemon Stadium 2 is the same one as brawl, and I'm not sure how ICE physics will transfer over. Yoshi's Wooly World reminds me of Rainbow Cruise -which is legal in someplaces- but my boss actually says he "knows it will be banned". ( He knows little about Smash truthfully). Luigis Mansion is banned because of destructable pilars, and the active hitbox glitch/feature in brawl where your hitboxes extend. I don't know if it works like brawl did, so I listed it as banned. Feel free to educate me.

Woah, slow down. Why ban Bridge of Eldin? Sure, it's too big for singles, but it should work well in doubles as a counter-pick or something, right?

Yes, I know I have a bunch of large stages unbanned, and even some with hazards. Bridge of Eldin is just way too big. Back in our early brawl tournaments, matches played on this stage (before I decided to stick with the official stagelist) involved Link shooting arrows from a corner, and Falco shooting lasers from the other side. Matches came too close to running to time. Combined with it having hazards, this was a definite no from me.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

A stage list for Smash U is kinda pointless right now but out of the ones known I actually see more viable stages than any other official Smash game

Battlefield, Big Battlefield(may be too big), Final Destination, Congo Jungle N64, Lylat Cruise Brawl, Town and City, Smashville Brawl, Pilot Wings, and Miiverse look very good.

 

[smashmachine]

Isn't it legal in the Japanese Brawl's double stagelist.

you think the region with 3 legal stages has THAT one legal? lmao

 

[Piford]

We usually have a heavy turnout for anything smash, and believe me when I say its easier banning Norfair than letting someone lose on it. We've had some heated arguements and confrontations on that stage and a few others. I don't know if Pokemon Stadium 2 is the same one as brawl, and I'm not sure how ICE physics will transfer over. Yoshi's Wooly World reminds me of Rainbow Cruise -which is legal in someplaces- but my boss actually says he "knows it will be banned". ( He knows little about Smash truthfully). Luigis Mansion is banned because of destructable pilars, and the active hitbox glitch/feature in brawl where your hitboxes extend. I don't know if it works like brawl did, so I listed it as banned. Feel free to educate me.

So Pokemon Stadium 2 is already better than in Brawl because there no more tripping, which was the main problem with the ice one. Theres no more wall infinites, so now the ground transformation is fine. The stronger gravity makes the air version a lot better. The electric isn't changed by mechanics, so its the same unless its physically different.

Wooly World isn't a moving stage, so I don't know how it reminds you of rainbow cruise. The main problem is it looks to have a walk-off about 1/3 of the time, but if your testing walk offs in your tournament (thank you) then it shouldn't be an issue.

Norfairs main problem in Brawl was ledge stalling, which is fixed by lack of regaining ledge invincibility. But I can't tell you how to run your tourney so keep it banned.

Luigi's Mansion was not banned because of destructible pillars. From what I understand, it was banned due something with Meta Knight using his neutral B for infinites? I still can't find a concrete reason for banning this stage.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Luigi's Mansion was not banned because of destructible pillars. From what I understand, it was banned due something with Meta Knight using his neutral B for infinites? I still can't find a concrete reason for banning this stage.

Very cave. Much life.

Also, circle camping.

 

[HiNiTe]

Just my opinions I wanted to share about each stage. For the sake of reference I'm just gonna use the default starter/counterpick designation. Pardon me if it's large.

Legal (17 total)

Starter (8)
• Battlefield
• Big Battlefield - At this point, it can be legal, but if it's too big for some reason, it can be legal in 2v2s and above. From what I've seen, the bottom part of the stage is lower and the camera is zoomed in more than the regular Battlefield to compensate for the amount of players.
• Final Destination
• Congo Jungle N64 - This was mainly banned in 64/Melee for being too large in singles, but afaik it was legal in Melee for doubles but rarely used if anything. Character models are bigger in Brawl/Smash 4, this stage has good platform locations. Possible starter, good counterpick.
• Skyloft - Basically a better Delfino Plaza. Larger main platform and no water.
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City - Slightly larger variation of Smashville with differing platforms throughout.
• Smashville

Counterpick (9)
• Mushroom Kingdom U - If it's still the same from E3, it can be a good counterpick; possbily a starter on liberal stagelists.
• Delfino Plaza - It was mainly banned in Brawl for exploitable techniques from characters, like MK with sharking and D3 with wall infinites. Neither are problems now; it can be a legal counterpick again.
• Mario Circuit 8 - We've seen this track enough to designate it as legal. Good main platform, unique dynanism, less interfering Shy Guys than other stages, few walkoffs.
• Norfair - The main problems for this stage in Brawl were the ledge invincibility and gliding characters. Both are gone, and the hazards are easily detectable before they appear. Counterpick possibility.
• Halberd - A good all-around counterpick with its low ceiling and generally small estate, and good drop-off platform with detectable hazards.
• Orbital Gate - I personally see no reason why this stage should be banned. We've seen enough footage of it to be a good counterpick. The hazards do small knockback and easily noticed before it happens, and it's easy to understand where the platforms will appear without knowing about the stage too much. It keeps the fight going. Counterpick, honestly.
• Castle Siege
• Pilotwings - Good counterpick with varying stage angles, rare stage hazard.
• Wuhu Island - Basically another Delfino Plaza with few walkoffs and swimming.​

Questionable (12)
• Mario Galaxy* - Walkoff. Contrary to what most people think, the gravity gimmick here scales accordingly to the plane, so you can think of this stage as if it was still completely flat. It still affects hitboxes slightly, though.
• Luigi's Mansion - Awkward platform placement and cave of life, but this is a different game, it has a chance still.
• Port Town Aero Dive - The main reason this was banned in Brawl was because of the ungrabbable ledges on the main platform; it heavily favored characters with good aerial mobility. If the main platform has ledges, it can be an effective counterpick, but the cars might still be sketchy to some areas unless they were nerfed a la Onett's cars.
• Woolly World - I personally think it can be a counterpick. It's a stage with the most unique platform placement and a somewhat long walkoff transformation; it can help promote variety. The platforms might favor characters with aerial mobility (Peach/Jigglypuff) but again, it's only a transformation.
• Kalos Pokemon League - I also think this can be a counterpick. Rayquaza is not shown to interfere in the Dragon Chamber, and it has a 17% predictable hazard. Fire Chamber has the fire pillars that do minor dmg/knockback. Water Chamber has a short stream of water for 2.5 seconds and a walkoff. Steel Chamber has swords like fire pillars that do small dmg/knockback. Depends on the TO, honestly.
• Coliseum* - A good stage, but has a walkoff.
• Gamer - Mom is a fairly powerful hazard albeit incredibly predictable and you have ample time to adjust yourself, and likewise, your opponent can effectively hit you into 5-Volt's ray of sight. If 5-Volt was on a timer, it could be legal, but she seems random. The platforms also change every time the stage is picked. However, 5-Volt only kills about >90%. This stage can be a counterpick in the most liberal stage lists.
• Garden of Hope - The crab is very powerful and somewhat large and moves fast across the stage. Needs research first. It'll either be a counterpick or banned, unfortunately.
• Wii Fit Studio* - See Coliseum.
• Onett* - Needs experimentation.
• Wrecking Crew - Interesting dynamic like Gamer but not exactly a hazard like 5-Volt. It's similar to Tomodachi Life, if anything. Needs testing.
• Windy Hill Zone - It's hard to judge this stage based on footage. It seems large. Singles is iffy, but doubles and above is fine.

* = Walkoffs can be either-or at this point because of Smash 4's modified engine.

Banned (14)
• Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Walkoff with awkward platform placement, the Shy Guys are more intrusive than Rainbow Road and Mario Circuit 8.
• Jungle Hijinx - There's a bit too much going on in the front plane. I don't think the two-plane fighting is good competitively. At least Sakurai scaled the knockback to account for the background plane's largeness.
• Bridge of Eldin - Too large. Walkoff. Hazard is decent but overcentralizes one part of the stage, promotes camping, and encourages faster characters.
• Temple - Probable in quartets but otherwise still banned for problems in the past. Cave of life, circle camping (Peach and Jigglypuff), etc. Still the funnest stage if anything.
• Pyrosphere - Ridley.
• Yoshi's Island Melee - A bit small, awkward platforms, right-side walkoff.
• Great Cave Offensive - No explanation needed even if it's fun.
• Palutena's Temple - See above.
• Skyworld - Breakable platforms and favors certain characters with better recoveries because of the ledges.
• Boxing Ring - Walkoff, camping, large, overcentralizing lamps and main platform.
• Gaur Plain - Metal Face.
• 75 m
• Wily Castle - Yellow Devil.
• PAC-LAND - Sidescroller and instrusive layout. Above all, it's ugly.

 

[FallofBrawl]

Wasn't pilot wings the stage where PPMD wall-trapped an opponent with like 15 up tilts? LOL
But honestly that shouldn't be a problem

 

[Piford]

Just my opinions I wanted to share about each stage. For the sake of reference I'm just gonna use the default starter/counterpick designation. Pardon me if it's large.

Legal (17 total)

Starter (8)
• Battlefield
• Big Battlefield - At this point, it can be legal, but if it's too big for some reason, it can be legal in 2v2s and above. From what I've seen, the bottom part of the stage is lower and the camera is zoomed in more than the regular Battlefield to compensate for the amount of players.
• Final Destination
• Congo Jungle N64 - This was mainly banned in 64/Melee for being too large in singles, but afaik it was legal in Melee for doubles but rarely used if anything. Character models are bigger in Brawl/Smash 4, this stage has good platform locations. Possible starter, good counterpick.
• Skyloft - Basically a better Delfino Plaza. Larger main platform and no water.
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City - Slightly larger variation of Smashville with differing platforms throughout.
• Smashville

Counterpick (9)
• Mushroom Kingdom U - If it's still the same from E3, it can be a good counterpick; possbily a starter on liberal stagelists.
• Delfino Plaza - It was mainly banned in Brawl for exploitable techniques from characters, like MK with sharking and D3 with wall infinites. Neither are problems now; it can be a legal counterpick again.
• Mario Circuit 8 - We've seen this track enough to designate it as legal. Good main platform, unique dynanism, less interfering Shy Guys than other stages, few walkoffs.
• Norfair - The main problems for this stage in Brawl were the ledge invincibility and gliding characters. Both are gone, and the hazards are easily detectable before they appear. Counterpick possibility.
• Halberd - A good all-around counterpick with its low ceiling and generally small estate, and good drop-off platform with detectable hazards.
• Orbital Gate - I personally see no reason why this stage should be banned. We've seen enough footage of it to be a good counterpick. The hazards do small knockback and easily noticed before it happens, and it's easy to understand where the platforms will appear without knowing about the stage too much. It keeps the fight going. Counterpick, honestly.
• Castle Siege
• Pilotwings - Good counterpick with varying stage angles, rare stage hazard.
• Wuhu Island - Basically another Delfino Plaza with few walkoffs and swimming.​

Questionable (12)
• Mario Galaxy* - Walkoff. Contrary to what most people think, the gravity gimmick here scales accordingly to the plane, so you can think of this stage as if it was still completely flat. It still affects hitboxes slightly, though.
• Luigi's Mansion - Awkward platform placement and cave of life, but this is a different game, it has a chance still.
• Port Town Aero Dive - The main reason this was banned in Brawl was because of the ungrabbable ledges on the main platform; it heavily favored characters with good aerial mobility. If the main platform has ledges, it can be an effective counterpick, but the cars might still be sketchy to some areas unless they were nerfed a la Onett's cars.
• Woolly World - I personally think it can be a counterpick. It's a stage with the most unique platform placement and a somewhat long walkoff transformation; it can help promote variety. The platforms might favor characters with aerial mobility (Peach/Jigglypuff) but again, it's only a transformation.
• Kalos Pokemon League - I also think this can be a counterpick. Rayquaza is not shown to interfere in the Dragon Chamber, and it has a 17% predictable hazard. Fire Chamber has the fire pillars that do minor dmg/knockback. Water Chamber has a short stream of water for 2.5 seconds and a walkoff. Steel Chamber has swords like fire pillars that do small dmg/knockback. Depends on the TO, honestly.
• Coliseum* - A good stage, but has a walkoff.
• Gamer - Mom is a fairly powerful hazard albeit incredibly predictable and you have ample time to adjust yourself, and likewise, your opponent can effectively hit you into 5-Volt's ray of sight. If 5-Volt was on a timer, it could be legal, but she seems random. The platforms also change every time the stage is picked. However, 5-Volt only kills about >90%. This stage can be a counterpick in the most liberal stage lists.
• Garden of Hope - The crab is very powerful and somewhat large and moves fast across the stage. Needs research first. It'll either be a counterpick or banned, unfortunately.
• Wii Fit Studio* - See Coliseum.
• Onett* - Needs experimentation.
• Wrecking Crew - Interesting dynamic like Gamer but not exactly a hazard like 5-Volt. It's similar to Tomodachi Life, if anything. Needs testing.
• Windy Hill Zone - It's hard to judge this stage based on footage. It seems large. Singles is iffy, but doubles and above is fine.

* = Walkoffs can be either-or at this point because of Smash 4's modified engine.

Banned (14)
• Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Walkoff with awkward platform placement, the Shy Guys are more intrusive than Rainbow Road and Mario Circuit 8.
• Jungle Hijinx - There's a bit too much going on in the front plane. I don't think the two-plane fighting is good competitively. At least Sakurai scaled the knockback to account for the background plane's largeness.
• Bridge of Eldin - Too large. Walkoff. Hazard is decent but overcentralizes one part of the stage, promotes camping, and encourages faster characters.
• Temple - Probable in quartets but otherwise still banned for problems in the past. Cave of life, circle camping (Peach and Jigglypuff), etc. Still the funnest stage if anything.
• Pyrosphere - Ridley.
• Yoshi's Island Melee - A bit small, awkward platforms, right-side walkoff.
• Great Cave Offensive - No explanation needed even if it's fun.
• Palutena's Temple - See above.
• Skyworld - Breakable platforms and favors certain characters with better recoveries because of the ledges.
• Boxing Ring - Walkoff, camping, large, overcentralizing lamps and main platform.
• Gaur Plain - Metal Face.
• 75 m
• Wily Castle - Yellow Devil.
• PAC-LAND - Sidescroller and instrusive layout. Above all, it's ugly.

Just wanted to say, you need an odd number of stages in a starter list. Also You didn't really explain why you thought stages that are counterpick heavily favor one kind of character over another.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Just my opinions I wanted to share about each stage. For the sake of reference I'm just gonna use the default starter/counterpick designation. Pardon me if it's large.

Legal (17 total)

Starter (8)
• Battlefield
• Big Battlefield - At this point, it can be legal, but if it's too big for some reason, it can be legal in 2v2s and above. From what I've seen, the bottom part of the stage is lower and the camera is zoomed in more than the regular Battlefield to compensate for the amount of players.
• Final Destination
• Congo Jungle N64 - This was mainly banned in 64/Melee for being too large in singles, but afaik it was legal in Melee for doubles but rarely used if anything. Character models are bigger in Brawl/Smash 4, this stage has good platform locations. Possible starter, good counterpick.
• Skyloft - Basically a better Delfino Plaza. Larger main platform and no water.
• Lylat Cruise
• Town and City - Slightly larger variation of Smashville with differing platforms throughout.
• Smashville

Counterpick (9)
• Mushroom Kingdom U - If it's still the same from E3, it can be a good counterpick; possbily a starter on liberal stagelists.
• Delfino Plaza - It was mainly banned in Brawl for exploitable techniques from characters, like MK with sharking and D3 with wall infinites. Neither are problems now; it can be a legal counterpick again.
• Mario Circuit 8 - We've seen this track enough to designate it as legal. Good main platform, unique dynanism, less interfering Shy Guys than other stages, few walkoffs.
• Norfair - The main problems for this stage in Brawl were the ledge invincibility and gliding characters. Both are gone, and the hazards are easily detectable before they appear. Counterpick possibility.
• Halberd - A good all-around counterpick with its low ceiling and generally small estate, and good drop-off platform with detectable hazards.
• Orbital Gate - I personally see no reason why this stage should be banned. We've seen enough footage of it to be a good counterpick. The hazards do small knockback and easily noticed before it happens, and it's easy to understand where the platforms will appear without knowing about the stage too much. It keeps the fight going. Counterpick, honestly.
• Castle Siege
• Pilotwings - Good counterpick with varying stage angles, rare stage hazard.
• Wuhu Island - Basically another Delfino Plaza with few walkoffs and swimming.​

Questionable (12)
• Mario Galaxy* - Walkoff. Contrary to what most people think, the gravity gimmick here scales accordingly to the plane, so you can think of this stage as if it was still completely flat. It still affects hitboxes slightly, though.
• Luigi's Mansion - Awkward platform placement and cave of life, but this is a different game, it has a chance still.
• Port Town Aero Dive - The main reason this was banned in Brawl was because of the ungrabbable ledges on the main platform; it heavily favored characters with good aerial mobility. If the main platform has ledges, it can be an effective counterpick, but the cars might still be sketchy to some areas unless they were nerfed a la Onett's cars.
• Woolly World - I personally think it can be a counterpick. It's a stage with the most unique platform placement and a somewhat long walkoff transformation; it can help promote variety. The platforms might favor characters with aerial mobility (Peach/Jigglypuff) but again, it's only a transformation.
• Kalos Pokemon League - I also think this can be a counterpick. Rayquaza is not shown to interfere in the Dragon Chamber, and it has a 17% predictable hazard. Fire Chamber has the fire pillars that do minor dmg/knockback. Water Chamber has a short stream of water for 2.5 seconds and a walkoff. Steel Chamber has swords like fire pillars that do small dmg/knockback. Depends on the TO, honestly.
• Coliseum* - A good stage, but has a walkoff.
• Gamer - Mom is a fairly powerful hazard albeit incredibly predictable and you have ample time to adjust yourself, and likewise, your opponent can effectively hit you into 5-Volt's ray of sight. If 5-Volt was on a timer, it could be legal, but she seems random. The platforms also change every time the stage is picked. However, 5-Volt only kills about >90%. This stage can be a counterpick in the most liberal stage lists.
• Garden of Hope - The crab is very powerful and somewhat large and moves fast across the stage. Needs research first. It'll either be a counterpick or banned, unfortunately.
• Wii Fit Studio* - See Coliseum.
• Onett* - Needs experimentation.
• Wrecking Crew - Interesting dynamic like Gamer but not exactly a hazard like 5-Volt. It's similar to Tomodachi Life, if anything. Needs testing.
• Windy Hill Zone - It's hard to judge this stage based on footage. It seems large. Singles is iffy, but doubles and above is fine.

* = Walkoffs can be either-or at this point because of Smash 4's modified engine.

Banned (14)
• Mario Circuit (Brawl) - Walkoff with awkward platform placement, the Shy Guys are more intrusive than Rainbow Road and Mario Circuit 8.
• Jungle Hijinx - There's a bit too much going on in the front plane. I don't think the two-plane fighting is good competitively. At least Sakurai scaled the knockback to account for the background plane's largeness.
• Bridge of Eldin - Too large. Walkoff. Hazard is decent but overcentralizes one part of the stage, promotes camping, and encourages faster characters.
• Temple - Probable in quartets but otherwise still banned for problems in the past. Cave of life, circle camping (Peach and Jigglypuff), etc. Still the funnest stage if anything.
• Pyrosphere - Ridley.
• Yoshi's Island Melee - A bit small, awkward platforms, right-side walkoff.
• Great Cave Offensive - No explanation needed even if it's fun.
• Palutena's Temple - See above.
• Skyworld - Breakable platforms and favors certain characters with better recoveries because of the ledges.
• Boxing Ring - Walkoff, camping, large, overcentralizing lamps and main platform.
• Gaur Plain - Metal Face.
• 75 m
• Wily Castle - Yellow Devil.
• PAC-LAND - Sidescroller and instrusive layout. Above all, it's ugly.

Great breakdown of the known stages good work but that is way too many stages and could cause problems such as confusion(as any TO this happens too frequently) and some of those stages seem too gimmicky to have in a tournament setting. I prefer a small, easily coherent stage list of 5-6 stages so there is to be very few gimmicky stages while still providing variety.

For Neutrals
Battlefield/Miiverse, Final Destination(need a third neutral and this stage has no gimmicks compared to the other stages even if it gives some advantages to campy characters), and Smashville Brawl. For Counterpicks- Town and City(Start of stage seems to promote camping due to height and distance of platforms so no neutral), Congo Jungle N64(the problems this stage had in the past may be not as much of an issue but this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k is enough of a reason to not have as a neutral), and Lylat Cruise Brawl(Layout is good but due to the occasional tilting of the stage it would seem to be best to leave this as a counterpick).

​

Big Battlefield - stalling and camping would seem to be an issue due to it's large size but it doesn't seem out of question for team battles.

Omega Destinations - The Omega Destination situation is a complicated one. For anyone who has played them know that they are not exact replicas of Final Destination due in part of their varying blast zones and shape(Hill shape like Yoshi's Island Brawl or shaped liked regular Final Destination). Now I for one want them legal but how should they be implemented is the question. Should they and Final Destination be all counted as the same stage with various skins so banning Final Destination would mean the Omega Destinations would be banned too, If they are counted as the same as Final Destination then if someone chooses to pick that stage should the opponent have a say in which Omega Destination is used, should Omega Destinations be grouped together but separate from Final Destination, and should each Omega Destination be counted as a separate stage or should they be groups(examples would be Group A for Floating Stage Destination and Group B for Hill Destinations)?

Miiverse - This stage seems to be an exact replica of Battlefield so until it is known that this stage has different vertical/horizontal platform placement and blast zones this stage should be treated as Battlefield.
​

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Great breakdown of the known stages good work but that is way too many stages and could cause problems such as confusion(as any TO this happens too frequently) and some of those stages seem too gimmicky to have in a tournament setting. I prefer a small, easily coherent stage list of 5-6 stages so there is to be very few gimmicky stages while still providing variety.

For Neutrals
Battlefield/Miiverse, Final Destination(need a third neutral and this stage has no gimmicks compared to the other stages even if it gives some advantages to campy characters), and Smashville Brawl. For Counterpicks- Town and City(Start of stage seems to promote camping due to height and distance of platforms so no neutral), Congo Jungle N64(the problems this stage had in the past may be not as much of an issue but this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mTNaAUJZz5k is enough of a reason to not have as a neutral), and Lylat Cruise Brawl(Layout is good but due to the occasional tilting of the stage it would seem to be best to leave this as a counterpick).

​

Big Battlefield - stalling and camping would seem to be an issue due to it's large size but it doesn't seem out of question for team battles.

Omega Destinations - The Omega Destination situation is a complicated one. For anyone who has played them know that they are not exact replicas of Final Destination due in part of their varying blast zones and shape(Hill shape like Yoshi's Island Brawl or shaped liked regular Final Destination). Now I for one want them legal but how should they be implemented is the question. Should they and Final Destination be all counted as the same stage with various skins so banning Final Destination would mean the Omega Destinations would be banned too, If they are counted as the same as Final Destination then if someone chooses to pick that stage should the opponent have a say in which Omega Destination is used, should Omega Destinations be grouped together but separate from Final Destination, and should each Omega Destination be counted as a separate stage or should they be groups(examples would be Group A for Floating Stage Destination and Group B for Hill Destinations)?

Miiverse - This stage seems to be an exact replica of Battlefield so until it is known that this stage has different vertical/horizontal platform placement and blast zones this stage should be treated as Battlefield.
​

What's wrong with a slight gimmick if it doesn't fully impede the match? Every stage is a gimmick of sorts, Battlefield has platforms, and FD has one base platform. Anything can change the dynamic of a match if it's different. What's the point of having a variety of stages if you don't take advantage of as many of them as you can? It still comes down to player skill in the end, and I think it would be bloody limiting to just go with a small stage list because you like small.

We have never been presented with this opportunity that we have this many good stages and shouldn't just get stricter just because we might have more than before.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

What's wrong with a slight gimmick if it doesn't fully impede the match? Every stage is a gimmick of sorts, Battlefield has platforms, and FD has one base platform. Anything can change the dynamic of a match if it's different. What's the point of having a variety of stages if you don't take advantage of as many of them as you can? It still comes down to player skill in the end, and I think it would be bloody limiting to just go with a small stage list because you like small.

We have never been presented with this opportunity that we have this many good stages and shouldn't just get stricter just because we might have more than before.

Battlefield and Final Destination are static stages they are not gimmicks stuff that is not static is gimmicky like Smashville's moving platform and the tilting nature of Lylat Cruise. There are many reasons for me not listing all the other stages due to these gimmick As Smash is primarily a party game that focuses on chaos more than tech and skill most of the stages are unusable for a competitive setting having variety is good when there are enough to support it but having variety for the sake of variety is not healthy for competitive play. Walk-offs and really big stages because they promote heavy camping while moving stages just interrupt the flow of the match too much. Stages that have any damaging hazards are a no-no for any competition no matter how slow or predictable some may be as the only deciding factors on trades and overall the match should be between the players not any uncontrollable force. There is a great amount of stages in Smash Wii U with plenty of "viable" stages more so than any other Smash based on previous smash scene stage lists criteria so at the end of all this expect there to be around 10 stages legal at tournaments.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

Wasn't pilot wings the stage where PPMD wall-trapped an opponent with like 15 up tilts? LOL
But honestly that shouldn't be a problem

You're talking about the Nintendo Invitational? He only got 5 or 6 U-tilts in Skyloft. And that was because he got greedy and no one knew about vectoring, so chances are ZeRo was vectoring right back into them trying to DI. Don't remember if ZeRo managed to escape or if someone else broke the combo, but the stage changed shortly afterwards.

No, that's an old persisting rumor that never will die for some reason. (The Ness can't be counterpicked to Saffron City in 64 is another one, that stage hasn't been legal in any way for years. I have no idea where these old rumors even come from )

Well, since the stage is banned, you actually can't counterpick Ness there can you?

Anyway, really derped about Bridge of Eldin. I forgot King Bulblin had a hitbox.

 

[BrimeZ]

There are alot of players that want to make Smash 4 as big(perhaps bigger) than melee and I'm one of them. However alot of players, especially new players believe that becoming good means picking the most likely high tier character, picking final destination round after round, and stalling and camping for dear life.

There is new arguing that the system for smash 4 rewards defensive play. But there is also a lot of room for aggressiveness and pressure. I believe that online "For-Glory" mode has breed the new influx of players to be extremely campy just by simply only allowing final destination stages. Furthermore not all of the FD stages are the same, so have walls, so have higher ceilings than others

Went to a tournament yesterday and I happened to be in the middle of a convo between two players at the tournament that went something like this
Player1: Are custom moves legal?
Player2: Yes
Player1: Well you have to tell me which ones you use
Player2: How come?
Player1: Because if you don't tell me, you're a d***head. custom moves changes the match up
Player2: That doesn't make any sense, you're playing in tournament, you should be ready for any match up
Player1: Well if you don't tell me, you're a d**khead because that changes a characters playstyle, and I'm just going to time you out
Player2: That's cool with me, thats how i play anyway

*facepalm*This isn't healthy for competitive smash lol. The idea of timing someone out is absurd and we should not condone it what so ever if we want competitive smash for smash 4 to grow.

I believe a solution to this is changing what we consider to be neutral or legal stages in smash. We shouldn't necessarily turn Smash 4 into Melee 2.0. I think picking stages that aren't stagnate help reduce the use of camping and stalling in Smash four. The mechanics that made Corneria a banned stage in melee no longer exist in Smash 4. Picking FD round after round doesn't put every character on an even playing field.

I understand that the melee system of stage selection isn't broken, but this isn't melee, its Smash 4. It doesn't have to follow the exact same formula. Designing a new system of stage selection for Smash 4 can help the vast majority of characters becoming tournament viable.