Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[ShadyWolfe]

There are alot of players that want to make Smash 4 as big(perhaps bigger) than melee and I'm one of them. However alot of players, especially new players believe that becoming good means picking the most likely high tier character, picking final destination round after round, and stalling and camping for dear life.

There is new arguing that the system for smash 4 rewards defensive play. But there is also a lot of room for aggressiveness and pressure. I believe that online "For-Glory" mode has breed the new influx of players to be extremely campy just by simply only allowing final destination stages. Furthermore not all of the FD stages are the same, so have walls, so have higher ceilings than others

Went to a tournament yesterday and I happened to be in the middle of a convo between two players at the tournament that went something like this
Player1: Are custom moves legal?
Player2: Yes
Player1: Well you have to tell me which ones you use
Player2: How come?
Player1: Because if you don't tell me, you're a d***head. custom moves changes the match up
Player2: That doesn't make any sense, you're playing in tournament, you should be ready for any match up
Player1: Well if you don't tell me, you're a d**khead because that changes a characters playstyle, and I'm just going to time you out
Player2: That's cool with me, thats how i play anyway

*facepalm*This isn't healthy for competitive smash lol. The idea of timing someone out is absurd and we should not condone it what so ever if we want competitive smash for smash 4 to grow.

I believe a solution to this is changing what we consider to be neutral or legal stages in smash. We shouldn't necessarily turn Smash 4 into Melee 2.0. I think picking stages that aren't stagnate help reduce the use of camping and stalling in Smash four. The mechanics that made Corneria a banned stage in melee no longer exist in Smash 4. Picking FD round after round doesn't put every character on an even playing field.

I understand that the melee system of stage selection isn't broken, but this isn't melee, its Smash 4. It doesn't have to follow the exact same formula. Designing a new system of stage selection for Smash 4 can help the vast majority of characters becoming tournament viable.

Designing a stage list so characters can be viable may sound good but it is the opposite. If some characters got to rely on stage gimmicks or are outplayed by other characters on neutral stages just shows that those characters are either just not good for a competitive scene or the player just isn't good at that matchup against what is deemed viable competitive characters.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

There are alot of players that want to make Smash 4 as big(perhaps bigger) than melee and I'm one of them. However alot of players, especially new players believe that becoming good means picking the most likely high tier character, picking final destination round after round, and stalling and camping for dear life.

There is new arguing that the system for smash 4 rewards defensive play. But there is also a lot of room for aggressiveness and pressure. I believe that online "For-Glory" mode has breed the new influx of players to be extremely campy just by simply only allowing final destination stages. Furthermore not all of the FD stages are the same, so have walls, so have higher ceilings than others

Went to a tournament yesterday and I happened to be in the middle of a convo between two players at the tournament that went something like this
Player1: Are custom moves legal?
Player2: Yes
Player1: Well you have to tell me which ones you use
Player2: How come?
Player1: Because if you don't tell me, you're a d***head. custom moves changes the match up
Player2: That doesn't make any sense, you're playing in tournament, you should be ready for any match up
Player1: Well if you don't tell me, you're a d**khead because that changes a characters playstyle, and I'm just going to time you out
Player2: That's cool with me, thats how i play anyway

*facepalm*This isn't healthy for competitive smash lol. The idea of timing someone out is absurd and we should not condone it what so ever if we want competitive smash for smash 4 to grow.

I believe a solution to this is changing what we consider to be neutral or legal stages in smash. We shouldn't necessarily turn Smash 4 into Melee 2.0. I think picking stages that aren't stagnate help reduce the use of camping and stalling in Smash four. The mechanics that made Corneria a banned stage in melee no longer exist in Smash 4. Picking FD round after round doesn't put every character on an even playing field.

I understand that the melee system of stage selection isn't broken, but this isn't melee, its Smash 4. It doesn't have to follow the exact same formula. Designing a new system of stage selection for Smash 4 can help the vast majority of characters becoming tournament viable.

This could easily be the first post in the thread, because it sums it up perfectly.

Thing is, custom moves should be checked before the match if either player requests it so everyone can be assured that no equipment was used and both players need to show their moves. Player1 was impolite (to say the least) in asking it (and for the wrong reasons too), but he's not incorrect.

Even though camping is a viable and preferred strategy in the current metagame, there are many anti-camping tools in the game too, so we can rest assured that the metagame should evolve beyond trench warfare in a while. Especially since rushdown is as strong as ever.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Battlefield and Final Destination are static stages they are not gimmicks stuff that is not static is gimmicky like Smashville's moving platform and the tilting nature of Lylat Cruise. There are many reasons for me not listing all the other stages due to these gimmick As Smash is primarily a party game that focuses on chaos more than tech and skill most of the stages are unusable for a competitive setting having variety is good when there are enough to support it but having variety for the sake of variety is not healthy for competitive play. Walk-offs and really big stages because they promote heavy camping while moving stages just interrupt the flow of the match too much. Stages that have any damaging hazards are a no-no for any competition no matter how slow or predictable some may be as the only deciding factors on trades and overall the match should be between the players not any uncontrollable force. There is a great amount of stages in Smash Wii U with plenty of "viable" stages more so than any other Smash based on previous smash scene stage lists criteria so at the end of all this expect there to be around 10 stages legal at tournaments.

The thing is, no competitive game like this has existed. Very few if any side scrolling fighting games have stages that interact with you, when for the longest time they've worked on a flat plane. Smash is not them, and it has different conditions for what competitive is, and we should embrace as many of them as possible instead of trying to be a poor man's imitation of these games. Our characters are made to tackle the challenges of these stages, with some being better than others.
Now it's one thing when players are fighting the stage more than the other player, but to deny every stage because one element might hurt you if you work around it poorly is a lazy way of saying, "I don't want to adapt." That's like banning Halberd because the stage is always on the move and a cannon might blow you up even though the thing can be spotted coming a mile away.

Designing a stage list so characters can be viable may sound good but it is the opposite. If some characters got to rely on stage gimmicks or are outplayed by other characters on neutral stages just shows that those characters are either just not good for a competitive scene or the player just isn't good at that matchup against what is deemed viable competitive characters.

And why can't those great characters be good on stages with slight gimmicks? Is Fox suddenly bad because Randall might save the other player's skin? Is he neutered because Pokemon Stadium just changed forms, cutting him off from his opponent?

 

[Piford]

Great breakdown of the known stages good work but that is way too many stages and could cause problems such as confusion(as any TO this happens too frequently) and some of those stages seem too gimmicky to have in a tournament setting. I prefer a small, easily coherent stage list of 5-6 stages so there is to be very few gimmicky stages while still providing variety.

A smaller stage list just leads to a less balanced game, in theory. If you only have 5 stages than the characters that are good on those five stages will be used more and considered better. Lets say we have 15 contenders for legal stages. Now lets limit the game to three characters, lets say Mario, ROB, and Luigi. Mario is good on stages 1-5, ROB is good on stages 11-15, and Luigi is good on stages 6-10. Now the community wants to only have a stage list of what they believe is the best for competitive play from the list of 15 stages they previously considered competitively viable. They decide stages 1-5 are the best for the game. Now Mario is the only viable character, as you removed all the stages that R.O.B. and Luigi had the advantage on. You effectively unbalanced the a completely balanced game by neutering the stage list. Now Mario is the only character thats considered viable.

Also @BrimeZ , all Omega's have the same ceiling

 

[HiNiTe]

Just wanted to say, you need an odd number of stages in a starter list. Also You didn't really explain why you thought stages that are counterpick heavily favor one kind of character over another.

It was mostly for reference, I'm aware. Remove Skyloft from starters if needed then. I wouldn't say every counterpick favors characters over another, it's whether or not they intrude on the game slightly; a tournament player will not want to risk having them an open option for the first game if we're going purely by starter principles.

As for a bit more explanation:

Spoiler

• Mushroom Kingdom U - Some transformations could hinder some characters with bad recoveries, like Ness (who is still gimpable.) It's also a bit large. Swimming wasn't in the E3 demo but it seems like something they'd add to it now.
• Delfino Plaza - Sharking on the main platform (albeit not as exploitable) and swimming that could interfere with characters without an effective meteor.
• Mario Circuit 8 - Shy Guys, while slightly intrusive, are stage hazards nonetheless. The main deal about this stage are the unique walls that appear on transformations, causing one side of the stage to be ineffective for KOs somewhat (characters can still bounce off them and fly to the other blast zone.)
• Norfair - Although ledge invincibility is gone, a placebo effect still takes place in that the ledge can still seem safe for some characters as their hurtbox extends downwards, like Ganondorf. Above all, the stage hazards intrude on the fight a bit.
• Halberd - Doesn't effect characters per se. Sharking, low ceiling. Stage hazards are barely intrusive whatsoever, though.
• Orbital Gate - Favors characters with better jumping and recoveries on some transformations because the next transformation starts a bit too high, and unlike other transformation stages, nothing will support pushing you upwards; you are given some time to know before when you should though. There's a small camping possibility on the Great Fox part on the very small left side.
• Castle Siege - Somewhat small first transformation. Second has breakable parts, mostly intruding with characters' comboes or giving unintended freeze frames on some moves, but this is rare.
• Pilotwings - Walls on one plane may cause small camping on the lower platform and centralizing that area for a time until the other plane comes. Somewhat powerful stage hazard even if it's not seen a lot. I also think it has sharking, but I'm not going back to E3 2013 footage to check.
• Wuhu Island - Delfino Plaza.

In general, we do need to see more information by playing the game anyway.

Great breakdown of the known stages good work but that is way too many stages and could cause problems such as confusion(as any TO this happens too frequently) and some of those stages seem too gimmicky to have in a tournament setting. I prefer a small, easily coherent stage list of 5-6 stages so there is to be very few gimmicky stages while still providing variety.

It depends on your views. I, for one, would like a larger set of stages; the Wii U has many good stages. What is considered "gimmicky"? You can't just slap on that word and expect a stage to be banned in a snap. My list was mostly just for breakdown analysis from my own views, it's free to interpretation otherwise.

 

[Piford]

It was mostly for reference, I'm aware. Remove Skyloft from starters if needed then. I wouldn't say every counterpick favors characters over another, it's whether or not they intrude on the game slightly; a tournament player will not want to risk having them an open option for the first game if we're going purely by starter principles.

The whole point of counterpicking is to get an edge on your opponent in character matchup on a stage. The reasons starters were called neutrals was because they didn't effect character matchups too much (although we now know theres no such thing as a neutral stage). Something like Pilotwings seems to be a good neutral to me, even though the bridge can damage players.

 

[HiNiTe]

The whole point of counterpicking is to get an edge on your opponent in character matchup on a stage. The reasons starters were called neutrals was because they didn't effect character matchups too much (although we now know theres no such thing as a neutral stage). Something like Pilotwings seems to be a good neutral to me, even though the bridge can damage players.

While I want to agree with you, you can say that but the definition of a counterpick is not definitive. I honestly wouldn't think Delfino Plaza or Halberd affected characters that much in Brawl (low ceiling did favor characters with good vertical KO moves though on Halberd a bit); it was, again, mostly because of Meta Knight and the whole meta game getting overcentralized to that point, and this just comes back around to the arguments held in this thread wanting a larger stage list that I agree with.

Does Arena Ferox intrude on a specific character? No, not really, and yet people generally dislike the idea of it being legal because of a few solid walls akin that Pokemon Stadium 1 has; likewise, both are transformative stages. Similarly, Pilotwings can be a counterpick in this vein because of the red plane's wall and bottom platform being somewhat safer than the top platform -- yes, it sounds a bit ridiculous but it is something players will use to their advantage: as a counterpick. Also, to some people (conservative stage lists), the thought of having even one rare stage hazard like the bridge automatically makes it not a "neutral" or "starter" stage, you'd have to take that into account of many different scenes.

Truthfully, I wouldn't even use starter/counterpick in this way since nearly every stage would come down to nitpicking by saying if they're counterpicks. But the tournament settings of today are so accustomed to this system, I'm not sure how effective it'd be to create a new stage-selection system, and stages are pit against one another in this fashion; Project M creates stages based on the thought of neutrality if we want to go so far. But that's a discussion for a different thread, anyway.

 

[Deleted member]

From what I've seen, (this is looking at things from a long term perspective), I think the stage list might look something like this:
STARTERS:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City (Animal Crossing is looking to be the new Yoshi's Island with its legal stages…)
Lylat Cruise
Miiverse

DOUBLES ONLY-
Big Battlefield
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*
Windy Hill- Springs are also not that big of a deal and no (circle) camping with the windmill in doubles.

COUNTERPICK:
Wuhu Island- Nothing interferes that much and the walkoffs are temporary.
Wooly World- I am a big proponent for this stage, it has a wonky stage set up but thats what makes it different and good for the stage list. Nothing on it is more game breaking than Randell or the ghosts. It seems to be a counter pick for aerial based characters, and it is very diverse. Don't see too many people complaining about Pilotwing's tilt.
Pilotwings- Only a boat that barely interferes and the plane transitions, its good. But those elements prevent it from being a starter.
Skyloft- Its a better Delfino.
Kongo Jungle- The characters are bigger so no circle camping.
Orbital Gate- It seems like a worse Skyloft, but from what I've seen it appears to be a counter pick with some variety.
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*

QUESTIONABLE BANS (Why I think they will be banned):
Mario Circuit- It is probably going to be a counter pick for a while, but the fact that 2 transformations take away an entire side of the KO area is a very big deal. And the Shy Guys aren't something to shrug off.
Kalos Pokémon League- The main reason I think it will be banned is the Ironworks Chamber. You can turn metal there, and I shouldn't have to explain why that is a bad thing. It also has the swords that function like 2 little PS1 trees. Besides that it has the walk off huge Flood Chamber and constant fire damage in the Blazing Chamber.
Windy Hill (Singles)- I would love to see this as a counter pick in singles. The springs are temporary and don't appear to interfere in all that many situations (see ghosts in Yoshi's Island), but it does suffer from circle camping involving the windmill.


*The Final Destination forms should be separated since the walls do make a difference. And no, Pictochat Omega should not be banned for Greninja Shadow Sneak shenanigans. You don't here people clamoring for FD to be banned in Brawl because Falco and Ice Climbers have free reign with chain grabs.

 

[Piford]

From what I've seen, (this is looking at things from a long term perspective), I think the stage list might look something like this:
STARTERS:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City (Animal Crossing is looking to be the new Yoshi's Island with its legal stages…)
Lylat Cruise
Miiverse

DOUBLES ONLY-
Big Battlefield
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*
Windy Hill- Springs are also not that big of a deal and no (circle) camping with the windmill in doubles.

COUNTERPICK:
Wuhu Island- Nothing interferes that much and the walkoffs are temporary.
Wooly World- I am a big proponent for this stage, it has a wonky stage set up but thats what makes it different and good for the stage list. Nothing on it is more game breaking than Randell or the ghosts. It seems to be a counter pick for aerial based characters, and it is very diverse. Don't see too many people complaining about Pilotwing's tilt.
Pilotwings- Only a boat that barely interferes and the plane transitions, its good. But those elements prevent it from being a starter.
Skyloft- Its a better Delfino.
Kongo Jungle- The characters are bigger so no circle camping.
Orbital Gate- It seems like a worse Skyloft, but from what I've seen it appears to be a counter pick with some variety.
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*

QUESTIONABLE BANS (Why I think they will be banned):
Mario Circuit- It is probably going to be a counter pick for a while, but the fact that 2 transformations take away an entire side of the KO area is a very big deal. And the Shy Guys aren't something to shrug off.
Kalos Pokémon League- The main reason I think it will be banned is the Ironworks Chamber. You can turn metal there, and I shouldn't have to explain why that is a bad thing. It also has the swords that function like 2 little PS1 trees. Besides that it has the walk off huge Flood Chamber and constant fire damage in the Blazing Chamber.
Windy Hill (Singles)- I would love to see this as a counter pick in singles. The springs are temporary and don't appear to interfere in all that many situations (see ghosts in Yoshi's Island), but it does suffer from circle camping involving the windmill.


*The Final Destination forms should be separated since the walls do make a difference. And no, Pictochat Omega should not be banned for Greninja Shadow Sneak shenanigans. You don't here people clamoring for FD to be banned in Brawl because Falco and Ice Climbers have free reign with chain grabs.

I don't really see how you can circle camp with the wind mill. You have to constantly be jumping up as to not be dragged off into the blast zone.

On Kalos, if you attack the sword they get driven into the ground, so if someone tries to camp using them, you can hurt them with it, which means they won't try to camp in the first place. Walk-offs definitely aren't a problem in the water chamber as the water will push you away or into the blast zone if you try to camp. The constant fire damage isn't really a problem because you or your opponent are required to initiate an action for you to take damage.

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really see how you can circle camp with the wind mill. You have to constantly be jumping up as to not be dragged off into the blast zone.

On Kalos, if you attack the sword they get driven into the ground, so if someone tries to camp using them, you can hurt them with it, which means they won't try to camp in the first place. Walk-offs definitely aren't a problem in the water chamber as the water will push you away or into the blast zone if you try to camp. The constant fire damage isn't really a problem because you or your opponent are required to initiate an action for you to take damage.

On Windy Hill you can stall for some time on the windmill and leap off to the main platform and repeat, which is why I think it will be banned, as much as I do not like that thought. It definitely is much less iffy than Kalos, and I am considering being in favor of it.

On Kalos, you can camp by the swords. If I attack the swords to drive them into the ground the opponent can capitalize on this or wait for a rushed aerial approach, and you would have to be right next to the swords to take damage, and there is a favorable amount of space. You still haven't addressed how the ability to turn metal is legal at all, because it isn't. It changes matches far too much with its properties.

The water doesn't come out instantly on each side. I can stay on the left side, wait for water from the right, and then jump over it. It is still a long stage.

How is the fire not a problem? It gets in the way since it is a constant hitbox that changes combos and the neutral game and forces you to camp or play on the platforms. And "somebody has to initiate an action for you to take damage" sounds a lot like camping.

 

[Piford]

On Windy Hill you can stall for some time on the windmill and leap off to the main platform and repeat, which is why I think it will be banned, as much as I do not like that thought. It definitely is much less iffy than Kalos, and I am considering being in favor of it.

On Kalos, you can camp by the swords. If I attack the swords to drive them into the ground the opponent can capitalize on this or wait for a rushed aerial approach, and you would have to be right next to the swords to take damage, and there is a favorable amount of space. You still haven't addressed how the ability to turn metal is legal at all, because it isn't. It changes matches far too much with its properties.

The water doesn't come out instantly on each side. I can stay on the left side, wait for water from the right, and then jump over it. It is still a long stage.

How is the fire not a problem? It gets in the way since it is a constant hitbox that changes combos and the neutral game and forces you to camp or play on the platforms. And "somebody has to initiate an action for you to take damage" sounds a lot like camping.

If your jumping in one place line, it leaves you venerable and isn't actually circle camping. It's still camping, but I'm not sure what I would call it.

Yes Metal does change the match. However, it isn't random, and it is temporary. It either rewards players for good stage control, or can punish the opponent (I believe you want metal on higher percents but not lower).

For water, when you jump over it, your now vulnerable to being attack from the person you were camping out, as you are in an unfavorable position because you can't grab in the air.

How is changing combo's and neutral game bad? Fire is not random and could be utilized by the player. How does somebody having to initiate action sound like camping? Its the exact opposite of camping, as camping is the act of staying isolated. You could use the fire to like throw your opponents into it and then get a follow up.

 

[Deleted member]

Yes Metal does change the match. However, it isn't random, and it is temporary. It either rewards players for good stage control, or can punish the opponent (I believe you want metal on higher percents but not lower).

For water, when you jump over it, your now vulnerable to being attack from the person you were camping out, as you are in an unfavorable position because you can't grab in the air.

How is changing combo's and neutral game bad? Fire is not random and could be utilized by the player. How does somebody having to initiate action sound like camping? Its the exact opposite of camping, as camping is the act of staying isolated. You could use the fire to like throw your opponents into it and then get a follow up.

Oh yeah, might as well give characters a lot more launch resistance so they live to high percents and more knock back on attacks so they KO you even more. Thats much more of an advantage than normal stage control. The swords can be lowered, but it does not suddenly make it so you can walk through it. The swords are still a wall like PS1's tree no matter how you slice it.

For water, when you jump over it, you're now vulnerable to being attack from the person you were camping out, as you are in an unfavorable position because you can't grab in the air. And the opponent/noncamper is either being swept away by water or jumping over the water to approach just like you are, so both of you are now in an unfavorable position.

Fire gets in the way. It changes launch angles, takes up a portion of the stage and is a pain to deal with. It can be utilized for both players just as much as the checkpoints in Green Hill Zone that knock you back. The stage is the focus rather than the combatants and it messes up potential follow ups. Say I have a combo, Fthrow to Dash Attack. I can't do that since the fire gets in the way and limits my playing space. It doesn't help that it does damage. I can definitely camp on that stage. Just set me by the edge and the opponent can't run through the fire, so they have to approach by the air giving me and my powerful, disjointed, large, and long lasting Link USmash a nice target. There is no way that any of those transformations are beneficial for the game and the stage will end up banned.

 

[The_Altrox]

Maybe I'm missing something, but why is FD considered CP on most lists? Also, is FD with walls a separate option from FD w/o walls when CPing, or what?

 

[Blitzern]

Looking at the pic of the day, it seems that Smashville is confirmed for the Wii U!

 

[Piford]

Oh yeah, might as well give characters a lot more launch resistance so they live to high percents and more knock back on attacks so they KO you even more. Thats much more of an advantage than normal stage control. The swords can be lowered, but it does not suddenly make it so you can walk through it. The swords are still a wall like PS1's tree no matter how you slice it.

For water, when you jump over it, you're now vulnerable to being attack from the person you were camping out, as you are in an unfavorable position because you can't grab in the air. And the opponent/noncamper is either being swept away by water or jumping over the water to approach just like you are, so both of you are now in an unfavorable position.

Fire gets in the way. It changes launch angles, takes up a portion of the stage and is a pain to deal with. It can be utilized for both players just as much as the checkpoints in Green Hill Zone that knock you back. The stage is the focus rather than the combatants and it messes up potential follow ups. Say I have a combo, Fthrow to Dash Attack. I can't do that since the fire gets in the way and limits my playing space. It doesn't help that it does damage. I can definitely camp on that stage. Just set me by the edge and the opponent can't run through the fire, so they have to approach by the air giving me and my powerful, disjointed, large, and long lasting Link USmash a nice target. There is no way that any of those transformations are beneficial for the game and the stage will end up banned.

I wouldn't say its a pain to deal with because the game isn't out so we haven't played it (unless your one of the people who went to the event. )
At least for the water , you can just run behind it so your now in the favorable position.
And here are reasons the sword is not like the tree (whether they help the stage or not)
1. The sword has a hurtbox.
2. The swords roof is a soft platform
3. You can force the sword into the ground

For fire, so your combo was fthrow -> dash attack. Okay you can't do it so make use of the fire, maybe your new combo could be fthrow -> fire -> nair -> fire -> uair.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

From what I've seen, (this is looking at things from a long term perspective), I think the stage list might look something like this:
STARTERS:
Battlefield
Smashville
Town and City (Animal Crossing is looking to be the new Yoshi's Island with its legal stages…)
Lylat Cruise
Miiverse

DOUBLES ONLY-
Big Battlefield
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*
Windy Hill- Springs are also not that big of a deal and no (circle) camping with the windmill in doubles.

COUNTERPICK:
Wuhu Island- Nothing interferes that much and the walkoffs are temporary.
Wooly World- I am a big proponent for this stage, it has a wonky stage set up but thats what makes it different and good for the stage list. Nothing on it is more game breaking than Randell or the ghosts. It seems to be a counter pick for aerial based characters, and it is very diverse. Don't see too many people complaining about Pilotwing's tilt.
Pilotwings- Only a boat that barely interferes and the plane transitions, its good. But those elements prevent it from being a starter.
Skyloft- Its a better Delfino.
Kongo Jungle- The characters are bigger so no circle camping.
Orbital Gate- It seems like a worse Skyloft, but from what I've seen it appears to be a counter pick with some variety.
Delfino Plaza
Halberd
Castle Siege
Final Destination and similar Omegas*
Omegas with walls*

QUESTIONABLE BANS (Why I think they will be banned):
Mario Circuit- It is probably going to be a counter pick for a while, but the fact that 2 transformations take away an entire side of the KO area is a very big deal. And the Shy Guys aren't something to shrug off.
Kalos Pokémon League- The main reason I think it will be banned is the Ironworks Chamber. You can turn metal there, and I shouldn't have to explain why that is a bad thing. It also has the swords that function like 2 little PS1 trees. Besides that it has the walk off huge Flood Chamber and constant fire damage in the Blazing Chamber.
Windy Hill (Singles)- I would love to see this as a counter pick in singles. The springs are temporary and don't appear to interfere in all that many situations (see ghosts in Yoshi's Island), but it does suffer from circle camping involving the windmill.


*The Final Destination forms should be separated since the walls do make a difference. And no, Pictochat Omega should not be banned for Greninja Shadow Sneak shenanigans. You don't here people clamoring for FD to be banned in Brawl because Falco and Ice Climbers have free reign with chain grabs.

Let me guess, you banned Wrecking Crew because it's vertically big right?

 

[Deleted member]

Let me guess, you banned Wrecking Crew because it's vertically big right?

It goes to the top of the blast zone and traps you in a can sometimes; I think it would be legal if it lost 2 of its platforms, but then it wouldn't be like the original wrecking crew. Its a nice stage, just not competitively.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

It goes to the top of the blast zone and traps you in a can sometimes; I think it would be legal if it lost 2 of its platforms, but then it wouldn't be like the original wrecking crew. Its a nice stage, just not competitively.

So what if it can go on top of the blast zone? That doesn't stop you from dying on top and your opponent can still bring you down with a few bomb smacks and a jump. (Doesn't stop you from dying on the side either, and the blastzones look pretty medium sized from the sides.)

The can is really predictable, you can't even sight that as a hazard because you'd have to be blind to not see something like that falling on your head. I can see that being a problem in Doubles, but in 1v1 there really isn't as much happening to make you not see the barrel falling on you.

 

[Deleted member]

So what if it can go on top of the blast zone? That doesn't stop you from dying on top and your opponent can still bring you down with a few bomb smacks and a jump. (Doesn't stop you from dying on the side either, and the blastzones look pretty medium sized from the sides.)

The can is really predictable, you can't even sight that as a hazard because you'd have to be blind to not see something like that falling on your head. I can see that being a problem in Doubles, but in 1v1 there really isn't as much happening to make you not see the barrel falling on you.

If it can go to the very top of the blast zone people die insanely early off the top. I can stand on the top and get up aired/smashed/tilted or get a grab and up throw. Whatever happens if anybody is at a decent percent like 50 then somebody will get KOed. Its almost like a vertical walk off.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

If it can go to the very top of the blast zone people die insanely early off the top. I can stand on the top and get up aired/smashed/tilted or get a grab and up throw. Whatever happens if anybody is at a decent percent like 50 then somebody will get KOed. Its almost like a vertical walk off.

Not every opponent has a guaranteed grab when chasing up there. For starters, say when you and your opponent are separated by giant ladders instead of platforms. Your opponent can try to climb to get you, but by then you're on the move to get out of that zone and might be able to attack them on the ladder, so your opponent is most likely to destroy your platform and bring you down if you're too high up.

Instead of automatically banning, we should see how easy it even is to get early kills on a consistent basis, because if something like TL could be legal when it almost gets to the blastzone then this can work too.

Edit: And don't we tolerate Yoshi's story, which is "early kill" the stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Not every opponent has a guaranteed grab when chasing up there. For starters, say when you and your opponent are separated by giant ladders instead of platforms. Your opponent can try to climb to get you, but by then you're on the move to get out of that zone and might be able to attack them on the ladder, so your opponent is most likely to destroy your platform and bring you down if you're too high up.

Instead of automatically banning, we should see how easy it even is to get early kills on a consistent basis, because if something like TL could be legal when it almost gets to the blastzone then this can work too.

Edit: And don't we tolerate Yoshi's story, which is "early kill" the stage.

I could make an argument that I can break the bombs at the bottom to bring more platforms, but I digress. And no, I am not saying "ban it immediately", I am just speculating that it will be eventually banned. Yoshi's Story is "an early kill stage", but a more proper analogy would be Bridge of Eldin since it is right next to the horizontal blast zone like Wrecking Crew can be right next to the vertical blast zone. The whole layout seems to be subject to possible circle camping, even with the bombs on the bottom. It might be a CP in some rulesets, but I personally believe it will be eventually banned. I do see where you are coming from, however.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

When it comes to how close to the blast zone Wrecking crew is, that needs to be tested. It's a fact that you can change the size of the stage by knocking down the walls. In doing so, sometimes the stage will be a nice enough distance away from the blast zone.

We need to see how often the stage will be away from the blast zone and how often it will be close to it.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I could make an argument that I can break the bombs at the bottom to bring more platforms, but I digress. And no, I am not saying "ban it immediately", I am just speculating that it will be eventually banned. Yoshi's Story is "an early kill stage", but a more proper analogy would be Bridge of Eldin since it is right next to the horizontal blast zone like Wrecking Crew can be right next to the vertical blast zone. The whole layout seems to be subject to possible circle camping, even with the bombs on the bottom. It might be a CP in some rulesets, but I personally believe it will be eventually banned. I do see where you are coming from, however.

By bringing more platforms you bring your opponent down too, who is no longer in as dangerous a situation.

The problem with that analogy is that walk off camping is volatile risk and reward. It's something a player does when they're in a tight spot and basically say, "Do I feel lucky?" But the thing is with Wrecking Crew; why would you even want to be on top? Your opponent has the advantage of you being up there because you only have one way to safely go; down. Otherwise, they're going to try and shark you safely because that's the safest option for them; they could be grabbed too if they went on your platform.

But with the volatile platforms too, this situation might not come into play anyways. I can see this stage being a plus CP for flying characters, but it's not something they can take advantage of all the time from the looks of it.

 

[SanicJan]

So what do you guys think of the Duck Hunt stage? From what we know now it doesn't seem to be so bad as Walk Offs are way less dangerous then before because you can't chain grab and the hazards aren't that damaging if there are even hazards. What do you guys think?

 

[Terotrous]

So what do you guys think of the Duck Hunt stage? From what we know now it doesn't seem to be so bad as Walk Offs are way less dangerous then before because you can't chain grab and the hazards aren't that damaging if there are even hazards. What do you guys think?

Kind of hard to tell since we only saw a few seconds of it. I would assume that an unseen gunman is shooting at stuff on the stage, though.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I don't think it will be legal, seeing as it is a walk off and all, but something bugs me about it. There seems to be something going on with the grass on the side of the stage near the blastzone.

 

[Terotrous]

I don't think it will be legal, seeing as it is a walk off and all, but something bugs me about it. There seems to be something going on with the grass on the side of the stage near the blastzone.

Yeah, gamexplain pointed that out. They wondered if you could hide behind it.

 

[Piford]

If its like Flatzone with walk-offs , then it'll probably be banned. If it's a flat stage with ledges and occasional platforms then it'll probably be legal.

 

[SanicJan]

If its like Flatzone with walk-offs , then it'll probably be banned. If it's a flat stage with ledges and occasional platforms then it'll probably be legal.

I could understand why it would be banned as well. It really depends on how small the blast zones are and how disruptive the hazards are. If they're as disruptive as Flat Zone 2's (Looks at Lion and Oil Panic) then I can see why. It makes sense. It's just a weird one as we know literally nothing about it.

 

[LiteralGrill]

If there is going to be a legal walkoff it would probably be Wii Fit Studio (unless we find something horrible there) as it is the most tames and best sized, or Onett since Onett has at least been legal other times before and the cars help prevent walkoff camping.

I know some of the reasons we banned walkoffs in the past are gone, but the stages could still have issues with walkoff camping being degenerate.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

If there is going to be a legal walkoff it would probably be Wii Fit Studio (unless we find something horrible there) as it is the most tames and best sized, or Onett since Onett has at least been legal other times before and the cars help prevent walkoff camping.

I know some of the reasons we banned walkoffs in the past are gone, but the stages could still have issues with walkoff camping being degenerate.

Not Coliseum?

Also I could have sworn I saw a wide angle shot of Wii Fit Studio in the direct where it had ledges, but it may have been the Omega form.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Not Coliseum?

It's probably the next best, I still worry it's just a bit too big though.

I will for sure be hosting more science stage events, so I'll be able to see if walkoffs work and which stages in general would work best out of the more questionable.

 

[Piford]

I think Coliseum would be much better than Wii Fit studio because all the changing platforms rising and falling to the ground encourages arial combat. That being said, Wii Fit Studio is much smaller. Just for comparison, here's two pictures, with Pikachu for scale.

The larger size of coliseum might actually be good, because its likely harder to camp with larger blastzones.

 

[Zzuxon]

I don't understand, why people think Walkoff camping would be degenerate. You put yourself at extreme risk by being that close to the blastzone, it is a high risk high reward technique.

 

[Volt-Ikazuchi]

I think Coliseum would be much better than Wii Fit studio because all the changing platforms rising and falling to the ground encourages arial combat. That being said, Wii Fit Studio is much smaller. Just for comparison, here's two pictures, with Pikachu for scale.

The larger size of coliseum might actually be good, because its likely harder to camp with larger blastzones.

Coliseum is starting to look a little too big for singles. And that Wii Fit Studio Pic isn't at full zoom out. Both stages look great though.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

My earlier posts I suggested a stage list of Final Destination/Omega Destination, Battlefield/Miiverse, Lylat Cruise Brawl, Smashville Brawl, Town and City, and Congo Jungle N64, but with more time to analyze some more stages with viability in a competitive environment come to mind. The Smash community has a general consensus that walkoffs are bad so I'll skip over those.

Big Battlefield - It looks like a really good stage but stalling may become a problem because of its big size

Luigi's Mansion Brawl - Stalling may be an issue here do to its size and levels and the building is breakable but I don't see that much of an issue here so if anyone can elaborate on why this stage was banned in Brawl that would be great

Pilot Wings - I am generally against stages with hazards but with the hazard being so easy to avoid, isn't a cheap K.O. type thing like the crocodile in Jungle Japes, and doesn't target an individual like the arm and cannon in Halberd so this stage seems to be pretty fine

Pokemon Stadium 2 Brawl - This stages ice transformation may no longer be a problem with the tripping mechanic gone, the ground transformations hill may be of no issue do to the change to infinite jabs being no longer infinite, and while the electric transformation and flying transformation may be annoying nothing too bad about it so this stage seems legit for right now

Orbital Gate - The stage makes the transformations predictable but from the video I have seen the arwings will randomly shoot the aparoid(that alien ship thing) that the characters are on now I don't know if that will hurt anyone hit but it is not very predictable so if it does affect players this is a no go

Windy Hill Zone - The size and windmill may promote stalling but this stage seems fine

So many stages to see and not every stage is known yet and this game already has more viable stages than any other Smash game I love it and so many fun looking stages for them non serious free for alls Smash Wii U can't come soon enough.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

I don't understand, why people think Walkoff camping would be degenerate. You put yourself at extreme risk by being that close to the blastzone, it is a high risk high reward technique.

I don't see much of a problem with walkoffs but they do get rid of one of the most dynamic parts of Smash, the ledge game, which seems to be the biggest deterrent for their viability.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I don't understand, why people think Walkoff camping would be degenerate. You put yourself at extreme risk by being that close to the blastzone, it is a high risk high reward technique.

After listening to the grievances of others, I kind of get where they come from. It can really degenerate a match when a losing player decides to camp the edge when they are in a pinch. Since they are at a high percent they probably have nothing to lose at that point and it makes the match predictable because one grab and throw could end it. If there was just a bit more of a disadvantage to doing it then perhaps it'd be more tolerated.

My suggestion would be for Sakurai to disable the grab command once you get too close too the screen edge. But hey, what do I know?

 

[Piford]

After listening to the grievances of others, I kind of get where they come from. It can really degenerate a match when a losing player decides to camp the edge when they are in a pinch. Since they are at a high percent they probably have nothing to lose at that point and it makes the match predictable because one grab and throw could end it. If there was just a bit more of a disadvantage to doing it then perhaps it'd be more tolerated.

My suggestion would be for Sakurai to disable the grab command once you get too close too the screen edge. But hey, what do I know?

If you're the loosing player you shouldn't walk-off camp. You're supposed to be in an advantage when you walk-off camp, because if then entire match ends up being waited out you'll loose if you weren't winning previous to camping.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

The thing is, no competitive game like this has existed. Very few if any side scrolling fighting games have stages that interact with you, when for the longest time they've worked on a flat plane. Smash is not them, and it has different conditions for what competitive is, and we should embrace as many of them as possible instead of trying to be a poor man's imitation of these games. Our characters are made to tackle the challenges of these stages, with some being better than others.
Now it's one thing when players are fighting the stage more than the other player, but to deny every stage because one element might hurt you if you work around it poorly is a lazy way of saying, "I don't want to adapt." That's like banning Halberd because the stage is always on the move and a cannon might blow you up even though the thing can be spotted coming a mile away.



And why can't those great characters be good on stages with slight gimmicks? Is Fox suddenly bad because Randall might save the other player's skin? Is he neutered because Pokemon Stadium just changed forms, cutting him off from his opponent?

Smash is a very different beast than other fighting games with many different movement options, killing options, and ledge game using party gimmicks is not good for Smash competitively it would be the same as allowing items. Even though Halberd's hazard is very predictable and rarely affects a match a hazard that targets a specific individual is not good. Not sure what Randall is it and the transformations in Pokemon Stadium is not hazardous and the problem with that stage was the wall infinites which is of no issue in Smash 4 thankfully so Pokemon Stadium would be nice. Gimmicks is not necessarily a bad thing I am sorry if what I said can be interpreted as such the only gimmicks that are really bad are hazardous ones for obvious reasons. The stage list I provided is only a few ones I seen that are definitely good there are more this Smash has more viable stages than any previous smash game.