Stage Analysis & Discussion Thread

[Davis-Lightheart]

I noticed the dragon room's hazard didn't hit Ike when he was still visually within the flare effect. It may not even reach players standing on the platform, we'll need to verify the exact range.

I actually think he just rolled to avoid the effects, and the hurtbox dissipated.

 

[Piford]

What do you guys think of the size of Big Battlefield in 1v1?

 

[ParanoidDrone]

What do you guys think of the size of Big Battlefield in 1v1?

I imagine it would be very easy to play keepaway provided you used a character that was any good at it. The completely static nature of the stage will probably prevent any truly obnoxious shenanigans but it's almost expressly designed to support an 8 player battle, I'm not convinced it'll play well in 1v1. But in the spirit of my earlier post I'll reserve judgement until people actually pull it off in a real fight.

(BTW should I copypaste that post to the Ruleset Discussion thread? Seems a bit more appropriate than here.)

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I imagine it would be very easy to play keepaway provided you used a character that was any good at it. The completely static nature of the stage will probably prevent any truly obnoxious shenanigans but it's almost expressly designed to support an 8 player battle, I'm not convinced it'll play well in 1v1. But in the spirit of my earlier post I'll reserve judgement until people actually pull it off in a real fight.

(BTW should I copypaste that post to the Ruleset Discussion thread? Seems a bit more appropriate than here.)

You probably should.

As for me, I want to see actual keep away tactics being applied on this stage before I make a full judgement call on it.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Duck Hunt stage footage

It looks completely fine. The trees are a platform. The grass does cover players, but they last a short time and you can see when it comes up.

This stage looks pretty darn good and I thought for sure this would be a walk off stage

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Not sure what I think of Jungle Hijinx. I want to see just how much being in the back affects your knockback.

Here's more footage of Kalos for those of you interested in comparing footage.

This stage is just gorgeous. I don't like the Dragon Statue too much but it is not targeting anyone specifically and is predictable so this will make a pretty good counterpick

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Here's Wooly World in full.

I don't like how long the walk off lasts, but the transformation lasts a while too.

Edit: Orbital Gate

 

[ShadyWolfe]

What do you guys think of the size of Big Battlefield in 1v1?

I see it as a good counter pick but the large amount of platforms and size of the stage could promote circle camping and stalling a few tournaments when the game comes out should be enough to test it.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Here's Wooly World in full.

I don't like how long the walk off lasts, but the transformation lasts a while too.

This stage looks fine the walk offs aren't much of a problem because of the transformation

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Really digging the stage gameplay videos that are cropping up now. Woolly World seems completely fine as a stage, if a bit on the large side, and Orbital Gate Assault is basically Pokefloats IN SPACE, i.e. completely predictable. I couldn't tell if there were any damaging hazards though.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Really digging the stage gameplay videos that are cropping up now. Woolly World seems completely fine as a stage, if a bit on the large side, and Orbital Gate Assault is basically Pokefloats IN SPACE, i.e. completely predictable. I couldn't tell if there were any damaging hazards though.

Gamexplain has the game already check them on Youtube they are posting vidoes of the stages

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Really digging the stage gameplay videos that are cropping up now. Woolly World seems completely fine as a stage, if a bit on the large side, and Orbital Gate Assault is basically Pokefloats IN SPACE, i.e. completely predictable. I couldn't tell if there were any damaging hazards though.

The missiles at the end look like they hurt, and the lasers that attack the Aparoid ship look like they do too.

 

[Piford]

There were a few small lazars that came when the missile hits the gate, they did 1% each and no knockback. As for the ship shooting the missile to make it explode, it did no damage and Marth was standing right on it. It looks like 99% of the shooting is for visual flare and to make the transitions. That being said, the stage is 100% predictable so any minor hazard shouldn't be an issue.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

There were a few small lazars that came when the missile hits the gate, they did 1% each and no knockback. As for the ship shooting the missile to make it explode, it did no damage and Marth was standing right on it. It looks like 99% of the shooting is for visual flare and to make the transitions. That being said, the stage is 100% predictable so any minor hazard shouldn't be an issue.

I did notice Marth blowing up with no damage, so I think you're right. Given how long the match lasted I'd find it odd if the stage did have a particularly dangerous hazard that somehow didn't affect the fight.

The only real trouble spot (such as it were) is when the first missile blows up. The players seemed to consistently fall to their deaths despite the Arwings in place to catch them, although that's probably due to a lack of stage knowledge. (Also one of the players was lol Little Mac, this stage is probably an instant strike for him.)

 

[smashmachine]

legalize all the stages to ensure Little Mac will never see the light of day ever again

 

[Zwzchow]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVmQy3-Kpqo
More footage of Kalos
Blazing Chamber
Flame Pillars off the stage only appear for a while not across the entire duration
Rising platforms when transformation ends can kill if player still on them

Also the statue in the Dragonmark chamber seems to only target the circles on the stage. You don't seem to get hurt by the flare when you stand on the platforms

 

[ChampKing]

Orbital Gate to me looks like Pokefloats with less solid ground. I hate this type of stage. Could see it as a counter pick on more liberal lists though banned in most lists that people actually use.

 

[Piford]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVmQy3-Kpqo
More footage of Kalos
Blazing Chamber
Flame Pillars off the stage only appear for a while not across the entire duration
Rising platforms when transformation ends can kill if player still on them

Also the statue in the Dragonmark chamber seems to only target the circles on the stage. You don't seem to get hurt by the flare when you stand on the platforms

It looks as though the flam pillars don't stop movement and projectiles it seems, thats cool.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I have a Feeling KIalos is going to end up suffering a similar fate to Unova. While Unova is much more intrusive, this stage has so many things going on that can really break the flow of a match. With stage knowledge this thing should be fine in all honesty, but I have a feeling it wont be in outside of very liberal lists.

 

[Spazzy_D]

More Duck Hunt stage footage. Unless filling up the duck bar on the bottom does something game break I think this is a lock for legal.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

More Duck Hunt stage footage. Unless filling up the duck bar on the bottom does something game break I think this is a lock for legal.

If you go past round 99 the stage will start glitching up just like the actual game.

But seriously, yeah, this looks like a fun legal stage with some decent platforms. I'm certainly all for it.

Anyone see anymore Wrecking crew footage? I really want to study it.

 

[Piford]

They got all the ducks and nothing happened besides the Perfect 1000000 Round 2.
To end any confusion over duck hun

There are no hazards or rewards. Just platforms. It's a good stage no need to worry.

 

[Lasifer]

We don't know the full stage list yet, but this is my proposal based off of what we've seen.

Starters:

Battlefield
Miiverse (If anything's different from Battlefield)
Smashville
Town & City (New, but put here because it's definitely legal)

Starters/Counterpicks:

Final Destination
Halberd
Lylat Cruise
Castle Siege

Familiar Counterpicks:

Delfino Plaza
Norfair
Port Town Aero Dive
Pokémon Stadium 2 (Possibly banned)
Luigi's Mansion
Congo Jungle (Possibly doubles only)

New Stages:

Kalos Pokémon League
Mario Circuit
Orbital Gate Assault
Pilotwings
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Duck Hunt
Big Battlefield (Possibly doubles only)

 

[Deleted member]

Skip to 1:21 and watch Mario.

The fire section of Kalos got a new problem: (might only be energy/fire based) projectiles can move through fire; fighters cannot. This opens up for projectile camping with a damaging wall in front of you, forcing aerial approaches. Besides that the fire does affect knockback (1:34 Ike's Back Throw) and reverses the trajectory. Even if it only is a transformation, stuff like this does stack up against the stage's legality. I am all for more legal stages, and if the fire walls and metal chamber weren't as intrusive I would like to see this legal, even with the multiple dragon fire bursts and walk off transformation.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

I can really see Kalos being the new Pokemon stadium 2. Still, the fire isn't as bad as made out to be, seeing how low the knockback really is. At the same time, even if the fire does allow for projectile camping, it really doesn't seem impossible to get around it.

 

[Piford]

But can't you also use projectiles as an approach option? Also since the pillars of fire aren't always there during the first transformation, its even harder to camp.

Flatzone 2 confirmed, that's one to add to the ban list.

 

[Amazing Ampharos]

None of the stuff I've seen of Kalos looks ban-worthy. Water form seems really easy to deal with (I do notice that which side is "high" is random, not legality important but interesting). The fire pillars on the fire form do almost no damage and knockback as do the hits from the swords on steel. Those hazards are just geography to navigate and not actually threats to combatants. I'm not entirely sure of the power of the super predictable attacking pillars on dragon, but my early read was "weak". Unless there's a champion's room we haven't seen that is problematic or unless the stage features we've only heard about but somehow haven't seen in action yet (the metal pool and Rayquaza) enter the picture in a bad way, this stage seems like an easy legal stage.

Garden of Hope's crab is confirmed to do 20% damage and almost no knockback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjYGNGMz-kI

I think Garden of Hope actually has a lot more merit than it seemed to have at first. It's a bit big, but otherwise it has pretty tame geography and really doesn't do anything of concern.

Duck Hunt is just obviously legal in the same sense Smashville is obviously legal. We've seen perfects do nothing, failing to win a round does nothing, and all around the stage is just flat ground with platforms on either side corresponding to the shrubbery, a player controlled minor platform (the dog picking up the ducks), and the grass hiding mechanic which doesn't seem very significant but may be situationally interesting.

I really like Orbital Gate Assault. There is actually always a lot of ground; it just shifts a lot. It's clearly a stage built for aerial characters, but it doesn't seem any more severe in that direction than FD is for the ground characters. The hazards, insofar as they even exist, seem utterly trivial to the point we really could treat them as not existing. I'm not sure you can easily draw a direct comparison to previous traveling stages either since every form on this stage apperas to be horizontal whereas stages like Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats both had sections with way less ground than any section of this and had far more vertical gameplay.

The one stage you guys are buzzing about that I'm really not feeling is Woolly World. It's a walk-off for half of the time, a "no ground but lots of easily camped platforms" stage for the other half, and completely huge for all of the time. Like, I bet in the strictest sense of the word this is a fair stage and as a very stage liberal person wouldn't be upset to go to a tournament with a stage like it on, but it's probably overall less balanced than a conventional walk-off so, I kinda feel like unless we discover in play some surprising gameplay dynamics here that seem unlikely, this stage isn't terribly defensible unless we also want to make Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, and Wii Fit Studio legal as well which we probably don't want to do. I think we're better off focusing on our plethora of excellent other options.

We are really just swimming in legal stages; the info we're seeing is just making more and more stages look good as opposed to what happened with 3ds wherein a lot of stages looked promising but as we learned about them it was clear they had significant design flaws. We're looking at a future with most of the stages legal, and we won't even have to get into conservative vs liberal stagelists to do it since most of these stages are just really reasonable in the first place. Procedure will be a challenge (starter vs counterpick is just an awful, awful way to do things still; I cringe everytime I see anyone suggest a particular stage looks like a "counterpick"), but I think we can make this work and end up with stage rules in this game that actually make almost everyone happy.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Finally, Wrecking Crew footage. We see now how far the blast zones go.

Garden of Hope's crab is confirmed to do 20% damage and almost no knockback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjYGNGMz-kI

I think Garden of Hope actually has a lot more merit than it seemed to have at first. It's a bit big, but otherwise it has pretty tame geography and really doesn't do anything of concern.

Hey Ampharos, it actually varies where you hit the crab. His claw gives separate damage, but the hurtbox is so deep inside it that you may as well be clipping the thing.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Finally, Wrecking Crew footage. We see now how far the blast zones go.

Hey Ampharos, it actually varies where you hit the crab. His claw gives separate damage, but the hurtbox is so deep inside it that you may as well be clipping the thing.

Hmm...A little worried how often it stays close to the blast zone despite the numerous times the building came down.

The "walls being destroyed" hazard doesn't seem that bad though.

 

[Piford]

None of the stuff I've seen of Kalos looks ban-worthy. Water form seems really easy to deal with (I do notice that which side is "high" is random, not legality important but interesting). The fire pillars on the fire form do almost no damage and knockback as do the hits from the swords on steel. Those hazards are just geography to navigate and not actually threats to combatants. I'm not entirely sure of the power of the super predictable attacking pillars on dragon, but my early read was "weak". Unless there's a champion's room we haven't seen that is problematic or unless the stage features we've only heard about but somehow haven't seen in action yet (the metal pool and Rayquaza) enter the picture in a bad way, this stage seems like an easy legal stage.

Garden of Hope's crab is confirmed to do 20% damage and almost no knockback:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mjYGNGMz-kI

I think Garden of Hope actually has a lot more merit than it seemed to have at first. It's a bit big, but otherwise it has pretty tame geography and really doesn't do anything of concern.

Duck Hunt is just obviously legal in the same sense Smashville is obviously legal. We've seen perfects do nothing, failing to win a round does nothing, and all around the stage is just flat ground with platforms on either side corresponding to the shrubbery, a player controlled minor platform (the dog picking up the ducks), and the grass hiding mechanic which doesn't seem very significant but may be situationally interesting.

I really like Orbital Gate Assault. There is actually always a lot of ground; it just shifts a lot. It's clearly a stage built for aerial characters, but it doesn't seem any more severe in that direction than FD is for the ground characters. The hazards, insofar as they even exist, seem utterly trivial to the point we really could treat them as not existing. I'm not sure you can easily draw a direct comparison to previous traveling stages either since every form on this stage apperas to be horizontal whereas stages like Rainbow Cruise and Poke Floats both had sections with way less ground than any section of this and had far more vertical gameplay.

The one stage you guys are buzzing about that I'm really not feeling is Woolly World. It's a walk-off for half of the time, a "no ground but lots of easily camped platforms" stage for the other half, and completely huge for all of the time. Like, I bet in the strictest sense of the word this is a fair stage and as a very stage liberal person wouldn't be upset to go to a tournament with a stage like it on, but it's probably overall less balanced than a conventional walk-off so, I kinda feel like unless we discover in play some surprising gameplay dynamics here that seem unlikely, this stage isn't terribly defensible unless we also want to make Mario Galaxy, Coliseum, and Wii Fit Studio legal as well which we probably don't want to do. I think we're better off focusing on our plethora of excellent other options.

We are really just swimming in legal stages; the info we're seeing is just making more and more stages look good as opposed to what happened with 3ds wherein a lot of stages looked promising but as we learned about them it was clear they had significant design flaws. We're looking at a future with most of the stages legal, and we won't even have to get into conservative vs liberal stagelists to do it since most of these stages are just really reasonable in the first place. Procedure will be a challenge (starter vs counterpick is just an awful, awful way to do things still; I cringe everytime I see anyone suggest a particular stage looks like a "counterpick"), but I think we can make this work and end up with stage rules in this game that actually make almost everyone happy.

Some notes, in Kalos we have seen the Metal in action a while back in this thread, but it doesn't last very long and it isn't random. For Garden of Hope, I believe the Crab does do knockback, and it was just that bowser was huge in that event.
For Wooly World, it's really disadvantageous to walk-off camp because when the floor leaves you are now in a disadvantageous position. This means that no one will walk-off camp because there will be no benefit to it. Also I think we definitely need to test out Coliseum and Wii Fit Studio (Mario Galaxy is a bit big).

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

We finally see what Nabbit looks like. You'd have to be blind to get caught by him, and since you can hit him, he's an annoyance more than anything.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

We finally see what Nabbit looks like. You'd have to be blind to get caught by him, and since you can hit him, he's an annoyance more than anything.

At the same time, getting caught by him seems to be a one hit kill. Hopefully, it really is simple to kill him.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

At the same time, getting caught by him seems to be a one hit kill. Hopefully, it really is simple to kill him.

Well there was also a shot of him being easily carried by the gust bellows, so it can't be that hard.

 

[Starbound]

So Nabbit is essentially the Boss Galaga item in stage hazard form.

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

So Nabbit is essentially the Boss Galaga item in stage hazard form.

Hmm...I wonder if you CAN shake out of it.

Only the computers got caught and they usually do get killed by boss galaga. If you are able to shake out of it, it might not be that bad.

 

[Piford]

Nabbit may or may not push the stage into banned territory. He appears kinda frequently and is an OHKO hazard. On top of that there is the water spouts and ice falling. If you can break out or he really is easy to avoid, I can see it being fine though.

 

[Starbound]

If you can get out of Nabbit's bag, I think the stage is fine.

If you can't, I think we might have to say farewell to it. Which is a shame because it's a really good stage otherwise.

 

[Davis-Lightheart]

Let's just see how this works when we get the game; I hope he's easy to get rid of, if this screenshot suggests anything, he is.

 

[ShadyWolfe]

Hmm...A little worried how often it stays close to the blast zone despite the numerous times the building came down.

The "walls being destroyed" hazard doesn't seem that bad though.

Not a hazard they do not harm the players this stage is looking pretty legit

 

[CatRaccoonBL]

Not a hazard they do not harm the players this stage is looking pretty legit

No, it's a hazard.

Watch this:

Go to 1:06 and watch Little mac. You will notice he takes 10% of damage from the explosion of the wall.

It's a minor hazard though, nothing ban-worthy I believe and easily avoidable.