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Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

Mooer

Smash Cadet
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Lightning edit: sorry didn't see earlier posts - just here to say I agree I suppose!

M2k and Salem discuss stages in this video, primarily the Frostbite ruleset. I think they bring up a lot of good points and they echo a lot of my concerns with the lack of small stages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKJ6q9Hjuo8
 
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ATH_

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Why is FD a better stage than the hazardless no plats that could replace it? Wily and Pictochat I mean.

I'm pretty jaded about all the visual nonsense in Ultimate, so I'd be thrilled to at least see FD replaced with BF omega or some other stage with good music and a reasonable background. FD rivals Clock Tower as it is.

I also nominate Unova and evening smashville for GARBAGE visuals.
For my own personal ruleset I have a rule that if a player finds FD's visuals too distracting or overwhelming then as long as they notify their opponent it will be treated as Omega Form Palutena's Temple. Even if your opponent disagrees with you, it shouldn't matter. If one player finds the visuals bad, then the rules let them switch it for a very visually bright stage instead.

I feel like Unova's visuals are really not that bad, but it's different from person to person. I've never heard of Evening Smashville having a problem though? That's news to me.

I've even considered straight up replacing FD with an Omega form stage. Replacing it with Wily's isn't really that good of an idea to me, because the stage is larger and we really don't need that (though I do like the walls). Pictochat is just boring, and lots of people say Umbral Clock Tower is just as bad as FD if not worse. So in my opinion, either make it an omega form of a visually clear stage, or offer an option to use the alternative at the request of a player.

Some people are really sensitive to overwhelming visuals, and those people should be able to play in tournaments without breaking their eyes.

M2k and Salem discuss stages in this video, primarily the Frostbite ruleset. I think they bring up a lot of good points and they echo a lot of my concerns with the lack of small stages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKJ6q9Hjuo8
Video already posted on this thread, it's a great video.
 
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ParanoidDrone

Smash Master
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Why is FD a better stage than the hazardless no plats that could replace it? Wily and Pictochat I mean.

I'm pretty jaded about all the visual nonsense in Ultimate, so I'd be thrilled to at least see FD replaced with BF omega or some other stage with good music and a reasonable background. FD rivals Clock Tower as it is.

I also nominate Unova and evening smashville for GARBAGE visuals.
If you're looking to replace FD due to distracting visuals, then its replacement should differ only in visuals. Hazardless Wily/Pictochat/Umbra have variations in geometry compared to FD, whereas Omega forms are identical to each other excepting Z-axis shenanigans on e.g. Flat Zone Omega.

Basically, it's about minimizing the number of changed variables.
 

Tesh

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I know we don't NEED to change anything else about FD. I'm just wondering if, since removing default FD is on the table. Perhaps its worth asking ourselves if another spin is worth trying? After all its very popular right now for people to want varied blast zones. FD has basically BF blast zones, but Pictochat is a good bit closer on the sides.

I guess most of the community wouldn't sign off on the slopes though. And its not terribly exciting visually.
 

ATH_

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Wuhu Island, Prism Tower, Mushroom Kingdom U and Halberd?
Alright let's tackle these one by one.

Wuhu Island: The stage is absurdly wide, 208 units across from ledge to ledge. For reference, PS2 is 186 units across, Battlefield is 160 units across, and Smashville is 140 units across. The wider the stage the more wary we have to be about it, but that's not the main reason this stage is usually banned. The semi-soft terrain (meaning you can pass through from under the main stage) supports sharking heavily. Most people are heavily against the concept of sharking being a strategy, and ban it for that reason. Now, if we use rules for Character-First, then that makes the issue less drastic, but there are other better semi-soft stages we can use. Semi-softs are tough to use, because by nature they cannot be a starter, meaning they are only in games 2+, so it's best we only have 1 semi-soft at the most or else we run the risk of a player always being able to access a semi-soft stage.

Prism Tower: This stage suffers from the same semi-soft terrain as Wuhu, but it's not as wide and actually becomes smaller than other existing stages. The blast zones are smaller than average, but that could be a good thing. The main issue is that the stage transforms to a walk-off frequently and will stay there for around 15 seconds (Correct me on the timing if you'd like. I don't know it by heart.). The stage is probably a better stage than Wuhu, but it's arguable. Personally I believe Skyloft or Halberd are the best semi-softs.

Mushroom Kingdom U: Stage is massive. 214 units wide (iirc), but the saving grace is that despite the large terrain the blast zone is just a standard 250/192 blast zone (10 units wider than BF but that's fine). I like this stage a lot, but right now the last thing we need is a huge stage. I think the stage is acceptable in a large list where both Castle Siege and WaioWare are legal, though, because they balance out the list more. Otherwise, the stage unbalanced a list by offering even more support to characters like Pichu and Wolf. It becomes too one-sided. This stage is fine in some lists, but not all.

Halberd: I've replied about this before, so I'll sum this up quickly. The first 10 seconds are fine, people who keep complaining about it have either died once to it because of their own fault or have never died on it and just assume people die to it. The main issue is the semi-soft flying form, and the transition from flying-to-ship and ship-to-flying. The platform dips so deep into the ship's hull that entire characters get covered up, while the camera stays zoomed out (I think) and it can be near impossible to tell where your opponent went. The transition takes quite a while too, and is just too disruptive to be okay. Even if we overlooked that, the main issue is the semi-soft flying form which admittedly is only half of the time on the stage.

If you'd like some more insight on what I mean by sharking and why it's such a scary thing, check out these two posts made in this thread. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them.

EDIT: I feel the need to mention that I personally stand by the need to experiment and test as many stages as we can before deciding they are not viable. However, what I'm supplying here is the current reasoning I've seen and my own reasoning on why these stages are typically not seen on stage lists. If you wanna provide some data so we can come to a better conclusion, you could host your own tournament and provide us with the feedback you gather about the stages you're interested in testing!
 
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D

Deleted member

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Alright let's tackle these one by one.

Wuhu Island: The stage is absurdly wide, 208 units across from ledge to ledge. For reference, PS2 is 186 units across, Battlefield is 160 units across, and Smashville is 140 units across. The wider the stage the more wary we have to be about it, but that's not the main reason this stage is usually banned. The semi-soft terrain (meaning you can pass through from under the main stage) supports sharking heavily. Most people are heavily against the concept of sharking being a strategy, and ban it for that reason. Now, if we use rules for Character-First, then that makes the issue less drastic, but there are other better semi-soft stages we can use. Semi-softs are tough to use, because by nature they cannot be a starter, meaning they are only in games 2+, so it's best we only have 1 semi-soft at the most or else we run the risk of a player always being able to access a semi-soft stage.

Prism Tower: This stage suffers from the same semi-soft terrain as Wuhu, but it's not as wide and actually becomes smaller than other existing stages. The blast zones are smaller than average, but that could be a good thing. The main issue is that the stage transforms to a walk-off frequently and will stay there for around 15 seconds (Correct me on the timing if you'd like. I don't know it by heart.). The stage is probably a better stage than Wuhu, but it's arguable. Personally I believe Skyloft or Halberd are the best semi-softs.

Mushroom Kingdom U: Stage is massive. 214 units wide (iirc), but the saving grace is that despite the large terrain the blast zone is just a standard 250/192 blast zone (10 units wider than BF but that's fine). I like this stage a lot, but right now the last thing we need is a huge stage. I think the stage is acceptable in a large list where both Castle Siege and WaioWare are legal, though, because they balance out the list more. Otherwise, the stage unbalanced a list by offering even more support to characters like Pichu and Wolf. It becomes too one-sided. This stage is fine in some lists, but not all.

Halberd: I've replied about this before, so I'll sum this up quickly. The first 10 seconds are fine, people who keep complaining about it have either died once to it because of their own fault or have never died on it and just assume people die to it. The main issue is the semi-soft flying form, and the transition from flying-to-ship and ship-to-flying. The platform dips so deep into the ship's hull that entire characters get covered up, while the camera stays zoomed out (I think) and it can be near impossible to tell where your opponent went. The transition takes quite a while too, and is just too disruptive to be okay. Even if we overlooked that, the main issue is the semi-soft flying form which admittedly is only half of the time on the stage.

If you'd like some more insight on what I mean by sharking and why it's such a scary thing, check out these two posts made in this thread. If you have any more questions, I'd be happy to answer them.
I think if we have smaller stages like Wario and Weeb Siege, we should have slightly larger stages.
 

ATH_

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I think if we have smaller stages like Wario and Weeb Siege, we should have slightly larger stages.
Sure thing, the issue is that Wuhu and MKU are not "slightly larger stages". They're huge.

Pokemon Stadium 2 is considered really really big by the community standards, so going up to stages that are double the difference in length from an average-sized stage is something not a lot of TOs are willing to test, because it can seem ridiculous.

We have plenty of large stages as is, and as I said, the best place for a stage like MKU is alongside WarioWare & Castle Siege. I don't do it myself, but feel free to do that for your own rules of your own tournaments.
 

Swordplay

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Why is FD a better stage than the hazardless no plats that could replace it? Wily and Pictochat I mean.

I'm pretty jaded about all the visual nonsense in Ultimate, so I'd be thrilled to at least see FD replaced with BF omega or some other stage with good music and a reasonable background. FD rivals Clock Tower as it is.

I also nominate Unova and evening smashville for GARBAGE visuals.

In my opinion it's not.
But that's why I think having a wide variety of no Plat single double and triple Plat is the way to go. And then you could build the list based off of the stage sizes.

This would end up with a lot of stages probably 3 bans would be needed
 

Alias Tex

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Thoughts?
I’m not so sure that there is a real need for group banning when you could just increase the number of bans. The whole point of groups is to prevent certain stage archetypes from clogging the stage list without having to throw out the other stage variants, but this is only really important for the tri plats and omega-likes because they are mostly similar in size and in the matchups that they favor. When you start grouping the other stage archetypes that are more loosely defined then the “groups” lose their commonality in matchup relevance. I would recommend either having a rule such as “you can only nominate one triplat/omega-like” or use my variation on the last page over made for PXP1 instead of creating extra, less relevant groups.

All that aside, if you really want to stick with this then I would recommend moving Kalos PKMN League to anywhere in the D column and filling its place with Castle Siege. Kalos really plays more like FD than a bi-plat, although Castle Siege is hardly a bi-plat either but that is just the result of forced grouping. You could also place Wily’s Castle in the D column for extra variety instead of having two of the same stage. People aren’t likely to like that you have a single “hazards on” stage, and it would probably be more practical and meta-relevant to replace PS1 hazards with Frigate Orpheon or WarioWare.

But that’s just my two cents.
 
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Tesh

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I'd say group banning is fundamentally bad already because if things are dissimilar enough to be grouped for bans, the stages are redundant. However, you don't seem to care so much about that with your grid system. You have a row of omegas which are literally the same stage (even though we have a few other "almost FD" stages). Ps1 and Ps2 are in different row/collumns entirely despite this.

Its like you added some arbitrary puzzle game into your ban phase, which is...kind of cool, but I don't know why anyone would agree to it.
 

ATH_

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One of the problems I think we have with larger stage lists is that banning and win rules can be messed up.

I have sheets of 5, 10, 15, and 20 stages in my stage sheet thread.

Here's the 15:

View attachment 191757

Ban Rules
Best of 5: No bans.​
Best of 3: Ban 1 column and 1 row.​

Win Rules
Players cannot counter-pick to a stage from a column they have already won on during the set.​
Thoughts?
Cool idea! But honestly this gives way too much power to the winner of game 1. You're saying I can ban a layout-type and a row of stages? The row literally doesn't matter for column 4, because they're all the same stage. Then you have it set where PS1 is Hazards on but no other stage is like that? If this is a mixed ruleset, why not Dream Land with hazards? Or Yoshi's Island? Smashville? Town & City??

I like how unique the method is, but group banning brings a lot of questions to the table that are really hard to answer. If a TO has to answer a question like that, you're going to spark controversy among your players. For instance: What 5 layout types should be supported by a group banning system? Should it depend on the platform count? Or the layout? Should "dynamic stages" be under their own category? Is it safe to have 3 FDs on a stage list when FD is beginning to be seen as Counterpick to a lot of people?

What you're doing is bringing balance to your stagelist, but not balance to the matches played on it. T&C and Kalos aren't in the same row? Then you're telling me no matter what, if I'm playing Pichu or Duck Hunt or Corrin I can always get a large open stage? If my opponent bans column 4 and row 2 then I go to T&C. What's the difference between that and a normal Starter/Counterpick stage list? If i'm allowed my third best by the balance of the list, I see no difference.

Very cool in concept, but effectively (as it is right now) doesn't seem to change much.
 

VietnameseHOTGIRL

Smash Rookie
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I would like some opinions on this stage list

Bf, fd, ps2, lylat, Smashville
Unova, t&c, halberd

I'm interested in trying out halberd as a CP, it looks pretty unique but if it ended up not working out I'd swap it with yoshi's island
 

ATH_

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I would like some opinions on this stage list

Bf, fd, ps2, lylat, Smashville
Unova, t&c, halberd

I'm interested in trying out halberd as a CP, it looks pretty unique but if it ended up not working out I'd swap it with yoshi's island
Starters: Excellent! Great balance among them.

Counterpicks: Fine, though Halberd has its fair share of issues. I have to wonder why Yoshi's Island/Story and Kalos aren't on this list? Story offers a smaller alternative to BF with different blast zones. Island is far different from Smashville, but doesn't have the issues that Halberd has (see my post above on this page where I talk about Halberd and Wuhu). Kalos is great and would offer a 10 stage list which has a great balance of stages. 2 triplats of different sizes, 2 biplats of differing sizes, 2 monoplats of differing terrain, 2 wide stages (one with walls and edge plats), and then 2 unique layouts (lylat and t&c).
 
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VietnameseHOTGIRL

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Starters: Excellent! Great balance among them.

Counterpicks: Fine, though Halberd has its fair share of issues. I have to wonder why Yoshi's Island/Story and Kalos aren't on this list? Story offers a smaller alternative to BF with different blast zones. Island is far different from Smashville, but doesn't have the issues that Halberd has (see my post above on this page where I talk about Halberd and Wuhu). Kalos is great and would offer a 10 stage list which has a great balance of stages. 2 triplats of different sizes, 2 biplats of differing sizes, 2 monoplats of differing terrain, 2 wide stages (one with walls and edge plats), and then 2 unique layouts (lylat and t&c).
Thanks, I can agree with this for the most part, and I think adding both yoshi stages is a good idea, i'll do that for sure
I have seen what you've said previously and from the tournaments ive been attending/experiencing and watching the m2k/salem debate video as well and other posts in this thread i kinda agree with unova being a good replacement for kalos, and adding the yoshis would just give 9 stages which is nice. I also just want to give halberd a fair chance in the locals i'll run because it does have issues but the stage feels like it can have/add a pretty unique experience to the stagelists
 

VGFan95

Elemental Summoner
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Thanks for the feedback guys.

Is there a general rule of thumb to follow when determining the number of individual stage bans?
 
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ATH_

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Thanks for the feedback guys. I added "with grid" and "without grid" versions for the win and ban rules.

Is there a general rule of thumb to follow when determining the number of individual stage bans?
It depends more on the variety than anything else. Bans let you give your opponent what you think will be their Xth best stage, depending on how many bans there are. If it's 1 ban, then it's their 2nd best stage. 2 bans is their 3rd best, etc. For me, I figure out how many bans are necessary by looking at stages where character-types and playstyles excel, and figuring out what would be balanced from there.

If you run FD, Kalos, and T&C, then 2 bans would ensure that a character who excels on wide stages is forced to their third-best (usually Kalos or T&C). If you ran just FD and T&C or just FD and Kalos then 1 ban would ensure they get a good stage but aren't forced to a neutral matchup say, on Battlefield or Unova.

It's not about grouping so much as it's about seeing what kind of playstyles your list is promoting, and seeing how many bans seem like would balance the matches the most.

Or, the easy way to do it and the way lots of other people do it:
7 or less: 1 ban.
8-12: 2 bans.
13-17: 3 bans.

Like, I personally run my 13 stage list and I still use 2 bans (p3p1) because my list is made to be balanced like that. For each character there's roughly 3 stages that a character will excel on and therefore 2 bans means they get an advantage without it being their best stage. It depends on how your stage list is structured, but you can always take the shortcut and get feedback from your players!
 
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Sean²

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Lightning edit: sorry didn't see earlier posts - just here to say I agree I suppose!

M2k and Salem discuss stages in this video, primarily the Frostbite ruleset. I think they bring up a lot of good points and they echo a lot of my concerns with the lack of small stages.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKJ6q9Hjuo8
Can we just let M2K handle legal stages for all majors from now on?
 

Lore

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I still don't understand the hate towards Castle Siege and Warioware. Is it solely because they are disadvantageous to characters like Pichu and Wolf?

No wonder they have been putting up such results, with most common stage lists being heavily slanted towards their playstyle. I still think they have firmly earned their place as top tier characters with any stage list, but it's hard not to argue that the current list favors them.
 

Sean²

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I still don't understand the hate towards Castle Siege and Warioware. Is it solely because they are disadvantageous to characters like Pichu and Wolf?

No wonder they have been putting up such results, with most common stage lists being heavily slanted towards their playstyle. I still think they have firmly earned their place as top tier characters with any stage list, but it's hard not to argue that the current list favors them.
Because people don't want to die at 30 to DK or Incineroar....but people are also calling all the heavies mid tier at best in the current meta. Add some stages they can flourish on and they can probably get some results and bump up a few spots.

Here's the issue. No one is going to listen. #banlylat is STILL A THING on Twitter. Honestly type #ban(literally any stage) and you'll probably get some results - some sarcastic, some actually seeming serious, which is depressing to me. It's one of my massive contention points with this community. Because it's easier to just ban something than learn how to play with it, even when it's objectively fair. Oh the guys who get top 8 at every local don't like a stage and cry to you every week? Guess that's worthy of a ban then. Got 2 framed on the ledge of Yoshi's Brawl once because of the little slope? Ban it. It's jank. Got pineappled? BAN (but please keep PS2 even though it's easier to pineapple yourself on that stage lol we just like it)

In the M2K video, all Salem complained about for the second half was "stages aren't fun, characters are" and "jaaaaaaank". This is the garbage mindset this community has come to accept as standard.

Also I main Wolf and actually prefer medium to small stages...because relentless camping is boring and stupid
 

Lore

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"Stages aren't fun, characters are" is a mindset that frustrates me.

You have to be willingly ignorant to not see how much stages change the game. Even a supposedly "neutral" stage like FD is heavily biased towards some characters.

If people want less varied stages, they can just go play any 2d fighter.
 

Frihetsanka

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At this point in time, it seems clear to me that there are ten stages left that have a realistic chance of staying legal. They are:
Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Kalos Pokémon League, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story, Town & City, and Lylat Cruise. There's some chance that Pokémon Stadium 1 could replace Pokémon Stadium 2 (they're very similar anyway). From here on, I suggest we focus on the stages that have a chance of staying legal and stop talking about stages that have next to no realistic chance of staying around (except for some locals and online tournaments, I suppose).

Out of those I listed, I'd say Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be save. I don't see any of them being banned unless something unexpected happens. Kalos Pokémon League should be fairly safe, although some people argue that it's redundant with Final Destination (I don't personally think it is, but if people push that narrative then Kalos could end up banned). Some people think Town & City will end up redundant as well, or campy, so that stage isn't 100% safe either. Still, I'd say both T&C and Kalos are likely to stay.

Lylat Cruise is an interesting case: Most people involved in stage discussions seem to want it to stay, and even a recent Twitter poll had a majority voting against a ban (while both Castle Siege and WarioWare had ~75% voting for a ban). Lylat Cruise has two main issues: It's disliked by many (relative lack of popularity) and slants. I don't think the lack of popularity is a good argument for banning a good stage, so if Lylat Cruise is, indeed, a good stage, then it should stay. As for slants, I'm not convinced Lylat Cruise's slants are bad enough to make the stage banworthy, and Lylat Cruise has a unique layout and adds quite a bit to the stage list. I think it should stay, unless we discover something that makes it banworthy. Whether it will stay or end up banned is harder to say, though. I'm cautiously optimistic for now.

Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Unova Pokémon League are a trio of stages that are, arguably, fairly redundant. Yoshi's Story is a slightly different Battlefield, Yoshi's Island is a slightly different Smashville, and Unova is a slightly different Pokémon Stadium 2. Aside from being possibly redundant, Yoshi's Island and Unova have other issues as well: Many people dislike Yoshi's Island for the slants (who, arguably, are jankier than Lylat's), and Unova involved annoying lightning strikes that can be annoying for players and spectators, as well as a teleport issue that affects Mewtwo, Palutena, and Zelda. Right now these are the three most "borderline" stages, and they are the most likely to get axed going forward. Unova was already removed in Frostbite (and I think rightfully so).

So... This is an open and shut case, then, isn't it? Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Yoshi's Story will be on the chopping block because they're just slight variations of Battlefield and Smashville, right? Well, not necessarily. Proponents of the Yoshi stages argue that the stage list is in need of more small stages, and as such both Yoshi stages add something to the stage list, despite being possibly redundant. As such, they argue, removing the Yoshi stages would make the overall stagelist too large and that would be bad for, say, heavies.

I'm not convinced that the stage list would be bad without the Yoshi stages; Kalos Pokémon League is the same size as Final Destination, and Town & City is just slightly larger (and the same size as Unova, making Unova even more redundant). I'd argue that the only really large stage is Pokémon Stadium 2. In fact, adding both Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) could tilt the balance in favor of characters that prefer small stages: With 2 bans, you could ban Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and then your opponent might pick Smashville (another small stage). If you prefer large stages, the opponent could ban Pokémon Stadium 2 and... Kalos? Final Destination? Town & City? None of these are really that large, and you'll end up on a medium-sized stage. As such, I'm not convinced that a stage list without the Yoshi stages would unfairly benefit characters who prefer large stages.
 

ATH_

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At this point in time, it seems clear to me that there are ten stages left that have a realistic chance of staying legal. They are:
Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Kalos Pokémon League, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story, Town & City, and Lylat Cruise. There's some chance that Pokémon Stadium 1 could replace Pokémon Stadium 2 (they're very similar anyway). From here on, I suggest we focus on the stages that have a chance of staying legal and stop talking about stages that have next to no realistic chance of staying around (except for some locals and online tournaments, I suppose).

Out of those I listed, I'd say Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be save. I don't see any of them being banned unless something unexpected happens. Kalos Pokémon League should be fairly safe, although some people argue that it's redundant with Final Destination (I don't personally think it is, but if people push that narrative then Kalos could end up banned). Some people think Town & City will end up redundant as well, or campy, so that stage isn't 100% safe either. Still, I'd say both T&C and Kalos are likely to stay.

Lylat Cruise is an interesting case: Most people involved in stage discussions seem to want it to stay, and even a recent Twitter poll had a majority voting against a ban (while both Castle Siege and WarioWare had ~75% voting for a ban). Lylat Cruise has two main issues: It's disliked by many (relative lack of popularity) and slants. I don't think the lack of popularity is a good argument for banning a good stage, so if Lylat Cruise is, indeed, a good stage, then it should stay. As for slants, I'm not convinced Lylat Cruise's slants are bad enough to make the stage banworthy, and Lylat Cruise has a unique layout and adds quite a bit to the stage list. I think it should stay, unless we discover something that makes it banworthy. Whether it will stay or end up banned is harder to say, though. I'm cautiously optimistic for now.

Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Unova Pokémon League are a trio of stages that are, arguably, fairly redundant. Yoshi's Story is a slightly different Battlefield, Yoshi's Island is a slightly different Smashville, and Unova is a slightly different Pokémon Stadium 2. Aside from being possibly redundant, Yoshi's Island and Unova have other issues as well: Many people dislike Yoshi's Island for the slants (who, arguably, are jankier than Lylat's), and Unova involved annoying lightning strikes that can be annoying for players and spectators, as well as a teleport issue that affects Mewtwo, Palutena, and Zelda. Right now these are the three most "borderline" stages, and they are the most likely to get axed going forward. Unova was already removed in Frostbite (and I think rightfully so).

So... This is an open and shut case, then, isn't it? Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Yoshi's Story will be on the chopping block because they're just slight variations of Battlefield and Smashville, right? Well, not necessarily. Proponents of the Yoshi stages argue that the stage list is in need of more small stages, and as such both Yoshi stages add something to the stage list, despite being possibly redundant. As such, they argue, removing the Yoshi stages would make the overall stagelist too large and that would be bad for, say, heavies.

I'm not convinced that the stage list would be bad without the Yoshi stages; Kalos Pokémon League is the same size as Final Destination, and Town & City is just slightly larger (and the same size as Unova, making Unova even more redundant). I'd argue that the only really large stage is Pokémon Stadium 2. In fact, adding both Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) could tilt the balance in favor of characters that prefer small stages: With 2 bans, you could ban Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and then your opponent might pick Smashville (another small stage). If you prefer large stages, the opponent could ban Pokémon Stadium 2 and... Kalos? Final Destination? Town & City? None of these are really that large, and you'll end up on a medium-sized stage. As such, I'm not convinced that a stage list without the Yoshi stages would unfairly benefit characters who prefer large stages.
Twitter is not a reliable source for community opinion. Citing a twitter poll as a reason to assume a stage should be banned is just silly.

I'd love some explanation behind "Yoshi's Story, Island, and Unova are slightly different than X stage". Seriously, people keep saying that, but they aren't supplying reasons. Story is 24 units less wide, it has a 227/ 180 blast zone, platforms are higher and side plats are closer to the edge, there's slopes near the edge. How is this "slightly different" by any means?

Island is in a similar case, the platform has more relevance than on Smashville, the slopes are drastic, there's walls, blast zones are 10 shorter on both axis.

Unova is the big one here too. When you say T&C is slightly larger and that Unova is the same size, what you don't say is that the difference is 4 units. 2 units on each side makes the difference between Unova and Battlefield. That's nothing. Meanwhile, compared to PS2, Unova is a whopping 22 units shorter than it. How exactly is this considered redundant? M2K and Salem said theirselves that Unova is far different than PS2. Players who assume it's redundant end up losing games because they assume the stage performs the same way, when it clearly doesn't.

The thing is, if you're running a conservative stage list, you have two options. 10 stages, or 5. T&C/Kalos aren't redundant, but they do support similar characters as FD. If you get rid of the Yoshi's and Unova, you have to get rid of T&C and Kalos too, or else the list has 3 stages that are "effectively FD" for certain characters. You're left with FD/Battlefield/Smashville/PS2/Lylat, and sure that works, but why not just take the 10 stages instead? It comes with more variety, and more variety in stages means more skill involved.

I'd say if you're running a conservative list, you lose nothing in running 10 stages, and only seek to gain from it. While I personally believe that Siege/WarioWare are great stages, and the currently considered "average" stage size is just a bit big, I'm not going to ignore that plenty of others disagree with that. So going from the perspective that 160 is average, using 9 or 10 stages is the way to go.
 
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Lore

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At this point in time, it seems clear to me that there are ten stages left that have a realistic chance of staying legal. They are:
Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Kalos Pokémon League, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story, Town & City, and Lylat Cruise. There's some chance that Pokémon Stadium 1 could replace Pokémon Stadium 2 (they're very similar anyway). From here on, I suggest we focus on the stages that have a chance of staying legal and stop talking about stages that have next to no realistic chance of staying around (except for some locals and online tournaments, I suppose).
Your post reeks of pretension and self-importance. I don't know who pissed in your cheerios this morning, but you aren't the one to decide the direction of the thread.

I legitimately see no reason to read your points as valid, given that you clearly start with a large amount of bias. I 100% feel that you are looking for data to support your opinion, rather than data to form your opinion.
 

Sean²

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I'm going to do some picking apart here:

At this point in time, it seems clear to me that there are ten stages left that have a realistic chance of staying legal. They are:
Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, Pokémon Stadium 2, Kalos Pokémon League, Unova Pokémon League, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Yoshi's Story, Town & City, and Lylat Cruise. There's some chance that Pokémon Stadium 1 could replace Pokémon Stadium 2 (they're very similar anyway). From here on, I suggest we focus on the stages that have a chance of staying legal and stop talking about stages that have next to no realistic chance of staying around (except for some locals and online tournaments, I suppose).
I think we should be able to discuss whatever stages we've done extensive testing on. Most TOs are still banning stages without testing. WarioWare is mainly gone because of characters that people think aren't even going to put a dent in the meta in the longterm (I wonder why they think that? Hmm).

Out of those I listed, I'd say Battlefield, Smashville, Final Destination, and Pokémon Stadium 2 should be save. I don't see any of them being banned unless something unexpected happens. Kalos Pokémon League should be fairly safe, although some people argue that it's redundant with Final Destination (I don't personally think it is, but if people push that narrative then Kalos could end up banned). Some people think Town & City will end up redundant as well, or campy, so that stage isn't 100% safe either. Still, I'd say both T&C and Kalos are likely to stay.
Because people want to camp and have an easy out to reset to neutral when they're being pressured. I never thought I'd see the day where Smashville is generally struck first in most sets.

Lylat Cruise is an interesting case: Most people involved in stage discussions seem to want it to stay, and even a recent Twitter poll had a majority voting against a ban (while both Castle Siege and WarioWare had ~75% voting for a ban). Lylat Cruise has two main issues: It's disliked by many (relative lack of popularity) and slants. I don't think the lack of popularity is a good argument for banning a good stage, so if Lylat Cruise is, indeed, a good stage, then it should stay. As for slants, I'm not convinced Lylat Cruise's slants are bad enough to make the stage banworthy, and Lylat Cruise has a unique layout and adds quite a bit to the stage list. I think it should stay, unless we discover something that makes it banworthy. Whether it will stay or end up banned is harder to say, though. I'm cautiously optimistic for now.
While I agree Lylat should never be banned - Twitter is a god awful source for stage discussion. I wouldn't ever trust a twitter poll - It's the source for most of the whining about stages being "jaaaaank" without any reasoning behind it besides they don't like it, or it doesn't benefit them in some way.

Yoshi's Story, Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Unova Pokémon League are a trio of stages that are, arguably, fairly redundant. Yoshi's Story is a slightly different Battlefield, Yoshi's Island is a slightly different Smashville, and Unova is a slightly different Pokémon Stadium 2. Aside from being possibly redundant, Yoshi's Island and Unova have other issues as well: Many people dislike Yoshi's Island for the slants (who, arguably, are jankier than Lylat's), and Unova involved annoying lightning strikes that can be annoying for players and spectators, as well as a teleport issue that affects Mewtwo, Palutena, and Zelda. Right now these are the three most "borderline" stages, and they are the most likely to get axed going forward. Unova was already removed in Frostbite (and I think rightfully so).
Hold the phone.

Yoshi's Story? Yes, it's a triplat. Maybe similar blastzones and stage overall length (I don't know this offhand) Okay, end comparison. Walls, platforms that extend over the ledge, small slant on stage. Different enough to make it a viable counterpick - similar to Melee having both Dreamland and Battlefield.

Yoshi's Island? Also a viable counterpick. Who cares if people don't like it. The slants are not janky and barely noticeable half the time. Maybe the ones over the edge have some odd interactions, but if you don't like it, strike it. Removing so many stages with walls is almost like asking to delete some poor recovery characters with walljumps from the roster. Sorry Dr. Mario - you get to drop a tier because a stiff wind gimps you on floating stages and you only get to use your wall jump on a big, campy stage you're probably not going to choose anyway. (yes, this is an exaggeration, but still valid).

Lightning on Unova is annoying, but FD is safe with a background that causes eye hemorrhaging? What? You could argue that you can always just go to an omega with less graphical intensity, but it's not in favor in the twittersphere because "people measure things based on stage markings on FD and you can't do that on a random omega". Again - because it doesn't work in their favor, people don't want it.

The teleport issue? Also apparent on other stages. I've seen it happen on PS2, which also has a worse pineapple than Unova or PS1.

So... This is an open and shut case, then, isn't it? Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Yoshi's Story will be on the chopping block because they're just slight variations of Battlefield and Smashville, right? Well, not necessarily. Proponents of the Yoshi stages argue that the stage list is in need of more small stages, and as such both Yoshi stages add something to the stage list, despite being possibly redundant. As such, they argue, removing the Yoshi stages would make the overall stagelist too large and that would be bad for, say, heavies.

I'm not convinced that the stage list would be bad without the Yoshi stages; Kalos Pokémon League is the same size as Final Destination, and Town & City is just slightly larger (and the same size as Unova, making Unova even more redundant). I'd argue that the only really large stage is Pokémon Stadium 2. In fact, adding both Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) could tilt the balance in favor of characters that prefer small stages: With 2 bans, you could ban Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and then your opponent might pick Smashville (another small stage). If you prefer large stages, the opponent could ban Pokémon Stadium 2 and... Kalos? Final Destination? Town & City? None of these are really that large, and you'll end up on a medium-sized stage. As such, I'm not convinced that a stage list without the Yoshi stages would unfairly benefit characters who prefer large stages.
I'm going to drop something a bit opinionated here, but the Yoshi's stages CAN'T GO ANYWHERE. If you're going to have both Kalos and Town & City, you can't remove these. I like both Kalos and T&C but if you remove a Yoshi's stage, you have to get rid of one of these as well. Or get rid of FD/Omega, which no one will do.

If you ban 2 of 3 smaller stages during a set, and the opponent ends up having to pick the largest of the smaller stages, I'd say that's still a win considering it's still their counterpick. They shouldn't have to counterpick to a stage where you still get the advantage.

I main Wolf and one of my secondaries is Bowser - I feel more comfortable in a match against a heavy on a medium-small stage than I do playing as said heavy against a super-zoner on PS2. Someone like Incineroar on a big stage against a zoner because they had nowhere else to pick is just sad to watch.

Also I'm a proponent for PS1 over PS2. I think if you have PS2 as a starter, you need WarioWare as a starter. These are polar opposite stages. But remove both WW and PS2, then PS1 and Smashville evens it out.

Or, add more bans for the larger stagelist. Why are 3 or even 4 bans so out of the question?

I'm all for liberal stagelists. I also think FD should 100% not be a starter, but with the general consensus being so ban heavy and against experimentation, I think it almost has to be. But If I were to make a very conservative one, it would have to be something like this. Note: I think the most replaceable stages on this list are either T&C or WW. Both have a unique floating platform layout, but both promote very opposite playstyles. My main reasoning for keeping both Yoshi's stages are the unique MAIN platforms.

Starter:
PS1
Smashville
Battlefield
Lylat
FD/Omega

Counterpick:
Yoshi's Brawl
Yoshi's Melee
Unova
Town & City (OR) WarioWare
Kalos

Boom - the 10 stage list that people seem to want. You get 3 bans. I'm playing a semi-zoner, and you're playing a heavy, and I just won game 1, I'll ban Smashville, Yoshi's Brawl, and WarioWare. Cool, that kills some of the goofy junk you can pull on me but I still may not exactly have the advantage on somewhere like Lylat or Yoshi's Melee.
 

earthboundspacefree

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
51
WARNING: MEGA WALL OF TEXT - TL;DR AT BOTTOM


In order to determine the viability of a stage, you have to consider a few things. Along with that, you have to consider some things about the stagelist as a whole.


For a single stage:

-are there aspects of the stage that cause CONSIDERABLE disadvantage for certain characters or archetypes? If so, it should not be used. If there are minor disadvantages caused, that’s kinda the point of counterpicking - to have the stage potentially help you win

-are there any parts of the stage that fundamentally affect gameplay, or cause large amounts of distraction? Some stages are too much visually (looking at you, FD), and some fundamentally cause the game to be played differently (2d stages, walkoffs, caves of life, sharking)

- if a stage has an annoying component, but not problematic, deal with it. Stages with slants are included in this, as long as the slants aren’t gamebreaking (can anyone explain the issues people have with slants? I don’t get it)


In terms of stagelist, you need:

a) a diverse set of starters that are the most neutral stages in game, that provide *slight* advantages in play style (for example, stages that lean towards heavies, campy characters, etc.)

b) enough counterpicks to enable the loser to have a slightly larger advantage due to the stage

c) enough bans to ensure the winner can remove some of worst stages, but not enough that the competitive advantage for loser is removed (ex. Should be able to remove smallest stages, but not all small stages, etc.)

d) the number of bans shouldn’t be contingent on the raw number of stages, but rather based on point c. If there are a few neutral stages, 3 large stages, and 3 small stages for example, there should not be 3 bans, even if there are 30 stages. 2 in an example like that would be reasonable, since counterpick gives slight advantage, but not to an unfair degree.

e) because of points c and d, in order to make counterpicks fair for all archetypes, one stage size/type should not have more significant differences (for example, say the average size decrease of small stages to neutral stages is 20%, but the increase for larger stages on average is 40% - this would give more advantage to those who prefer to pick large stages, which should be avoided if possible).


As for the stages themselves, this basically leaves us with the usual suspects - FD, BF, SV, Lylat, PS2, Kalos, Unova, T&C, Yoshi Brawl, Yoshi Story, Castle Seige, and I would add WW. The questions to ask are - should they be used? If so, starter or counterpick?


Stage layout variety is important for starter stages. Thus, a stage like BF with middle of the pack size is probably the safest triplat, and should be a starter.


I decided to look at all viable stage ceiling and side blastzones, and stage length. I averaged each of these to determine the middle (of course, other nonstatistical factors come into play, but more on that shortly).


Before I discuss each stage individually, here are a few points to consider:

-PS2 and WW’s average deviation from average (heh, average of side, ceiling, length all averaged together) are basically identical (within one unit). Of course, ps2 deviations have less of an outlier, but nonetheless they are practically the same.

-Lylat, according to the numbers, is the most “average” stage overall.

-Next largest deviations are yoshis story, island, seige, and kalos

-The most average stages overall are T&C, BF, Unova, FD, SV, Lylat.


Genesis 6 rules are a little concerning - if you strike SV at the start, you’ll play on stages that are all significantly larger than average, stage length wise. There’s also a significantly larger than average side blast zone from the starters. Aside from having ps2 as a counterpick (which wouldn’t be a bad idea, tbh, but no one would go for it), something needs to change.


I propose that rulesets should keep all 12 of these stages, as the variance between large and small stages is very similar (7 smaller than average side blast zones, 7 larger than average stage lengths). For starter stages, the usual stages are mostly okay (fairly average size overall, good shape variance biplats, monoplat, short triplat, triplat). I would change FD to Yoshi’s Brawl. There are a few reasons for this. First, FD serves better as a counterpick, because the same people that would ban a flat stage typically would also ban larger stages, but FD means that no matter what, all your opponent has to do is ban Lylat and SV to guarantee a large stage. Yoshis brawl adds a smaller stage, with one large platform. It also causes averages to be pretty consistent (side and length slightly above average). With this in mind, those who want small stages can get one of Lylat, yoshis brawl, or SV, while large preference can get PS2, BF (as well as Lylat and sv being average size to slightly small anyway). This puts neither competitor at a disadvantage.


Having all 12 stages is for a few reasons, but one major one is that if you average my proposed starters, and the proposed counterpicks, the average of the two is almost near average (slight adv to large in starter, slight adv to small in CP). I can post the sheet if anybody wants it.


As far as bans, 2 or 3 would potentially be viable, but to maintain options while also allowing for CP to give a slight advantage, 3 bans would be ideal. Let’s say a loser wants a small stage, winner might ban WW, Siege, and yoshis brawl. That would leave story, Lylat, and SV as smallish to average stages. Again, slight advantage to smaller stages, but nothing drastic. The threat of warioware enables successful small stage counterpicking, even if it literally is never played on; without it, all small stages can easily be banned. On the other hand, for large stage preference, if you banned biggest stages, you’d ban kalos, ps2, and unova/bf. That’d leave you with BF/Unova, FD, T&C as biggish stages - again, advantage but not too much of one. Simplified examples but I hope you get my point.








tl;dr - changes to genesis 6 ruleset - Switch FD to counterpick, yoshis brawl to starter, add Warioware, 3 bans, 12 stages total. That would balance out small vs large stages to enable more balanced starters and counterpicking. Read the wall of text for explanation - I think it makes sense
 
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ATH_

Smash Ace
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discussion.png
It appears that currently stage lists can be divided into 4 types:
  1. Restricted Conservative: 5 Stages. This is out of necessity, where the list becomes unbalanced upon removing the Yoshi stages and Unova. If you want a list with minimal variance, maximum simplicity, this is what you go for. Less skill, but easier to learn. The 5 Starters are:
    • Final Destination
    • Battlefield
    • Smashville
    • Pokemon Stadium 2
    • Lylat Cruise
  2. Unrestricted Conservative: 10 Stages, maybe 9 Stages. This is when you allow the so-called "redundant" stages to offer more variance for a higher skill list. 9 stages has been considered "ideal" in the past when we look at games like Project M and Rivals of Aether, but this is Smash Ultimate and not those games. Still works though.
    • Yoshi's Story
    • Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
    • Unova Pokemon League
    • Kalos Pokemon League / Town & City (or both)
  3. Restricted Lenient: 12 or 13 stages. This option follows the logic that 160 unit stages are a little large, and the list needs more small stages to balance it out. It follows the logic from Unrestricted Conservative, but then says that this game is not Project M or Rivals, and has a major difference: The sheer size of the roster. With so many characters on our roster I believe that more variance with consistent balance among our stages will offer the best possible tournament play.
    • Castle Siege
    • WarioWare Inc.
    • Mushroom Kingdom U / Frigate Orpheon / Semi-Soft Stage
  4. Unrestricted Lenient: 15 Stages+. This is for those who wish to test out as many stages as possible, and are pretty much running everything already here, if not more on their list. Some stages you might see are:
    • Green Greens
    • Dracula's Castle
    • Prism Tower
    • Rainbow Cruise
    • Kongo Jungle
    • Halberd
    • Skyloft
    • Brinstar
However, I believe there may be a secret 5th option I haven't seen discussed here in a very long time! Let's assume the next couple majors really punch in the fact that we have too many open/wide stages but removing them forces us into a Restricted Conservative list? What do we do? Well, I have an interesting proposal I believe!

5. Hazards ON: Believe it or not, if we come down to only using 5 stages, having the hazards toggled ON would actually supply us with more stages than Hazards off. Take a look at this:​
1550178851589.png
Isn't it beautiful? Well, not quite. It assumes a few things that I'm sure some of you will point out. Yes, Smashville and Town & City are better. However, Fountain of Dreams has lag issues right now. Yoshi's Story has an issue where Shy Guys bring you healing items even if you have all items off. Lylat tilting again? People probably wouldn't like that so much.​
However! If FoD gets fixed (I feel that it will), even without Story and Lylat, we would have an 8 stage list with more variance than the Restricted Conservative list I said previously!​
Now, before someone screams at me for assuming having 4 triplats is okay, need I remind you that 4 triplats is standard for Melee? Not that that means much, but here me out. Triplats have commonly been considered the most balanced layout, and in my opinion, Fountain of Dreams really doesn't count as a Triplat here considering half the time the platforms are under the water. You could easily remove Yoshi's Story as I said before, and the list would be 8 great stages. I personally feel the community would be much more accepting of that list of 8 rather than the current Frostbite list for example.​
No, this is not what I'm going to be running, but if the time comes that larger lists are out for good, then I believe Hazards ON is a solid alternative. There are other potential stages too such as Duck Hunt.​

Anyway, I'd love to hear any thoughts about Hazards On. I don't think it's what we should resort to right now, considering FoD hasn't been fixed yet, but I believe it will offer a perfect alternative if majors start running 5 stage lists. At that point, we're running so little we might as well use Hazards On rather than Off. We get a better Smashville, more variance in our stages, and some fan favorites get put in too. It's a win-win scenario.
 
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earthboundspacefree

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 27, 2018
Messages
51
View attachment 192474
It appears that currently stage lists can be divided into 4 types:
  1. Restricted Conservative: 5 Stages. This is out of necessity, where the list becomes unbalanced upon removing the Yoshi stages and Unova. If you want a list with minimal variance, maximum simplicity, this is what you go for. Less skill, but easier to learn. The 5 Starters are:
    • Final Destination
    • Battlefield
    • Smashville
    • Pokemon Stadium 2
    • Lylat Cruise
  2. Unrestricted Conservative: 10 Stages, maybe 9 Stages. This is when you allow the so-called "redundant" stages to offer more variance for a higher skill list. 9 stages has been considered "ideal" in the past when we look at games like Project M and Rivals of Aether, but this is Smash Ultimate and not those games. Still works though.
    • Yoshi's Story
    • Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
    • Unova Pokemon League
    • Kalos Pokemon League / Town & City (or both)
  3. Restricted Lenient: 12 or 13 stages. This option follows the logic that 160 unit stages are a little large, and the list needs more small stages to balance it out. It follows the logic from Unrestricted Conservative, but then says that this game is not Project M or Rivals, and has a major difference: The sheer size of the roster. With so many characters on our roster I believe that more variance with consistent balance among our stages will offer the best possible tournament play.
    • Castle Siege
    • WarioWare Inc.
    • Mushroom Kingdom U / Frigate Orpheon / Semi-Soft Stage
  4. Unrestricted Lenient: 15 Stages+. This is for those who wish to test out as many stages as possible, and are pretty much running everything already here, if not more on their list. Some stages you might see are:
    • Green Greens
    • Dracula's Castle
    • Prism Tower
    • Rainbow Cruise
    • Kongo Jungle
    • Halberd
    • Skyloft
    • Brinstar
However, I believe there may be a secret 5th option I haven't seen discussed here in a very long time! Let's assume the next couple majors really punch in the fact that we have too many open/wide stages but removing them forces us into a Restricted Conservative list? What do we do? Well, I have an interesting proposal I believe!

5. Hazards ON: Believe it or not, if we come down to only using 5 stages, having the hazards toggled ON would actually supply us with more stages than Hazards off. Take a look at this:​
Isn't it beautiful? Well, not quite. It assumes a few things that I'm sure some of you will point out. Yes, Smashville and Town & City are better. However, Fountain of Dreams has lag issues right now. Yoshi's Story has an issue where Shy Guys bring you healing items even if you have all items off. Lylat tilting again? People probably wouldn't like that so much.​
However! If FoD gets fixed (I feel that it will), even without Story and Lylat, we would have an 8 stage list with more variance than the Restricted Conservative list I said previously!​
Now, before someone screams at me for assuming having 4 triplats is okay, need I remind you that 4 triplats is standard for Melee? Not that that means much, but here me out. Triplats have commonly been considered the most balanced layout, and in my opinion, Fountain of Dreams really doesn't count as a Triplat here considering half the time the platforms are under the water. You could easily remove Yoshi's Story as I said before, and the list would be 8 great stages. I personally feel the community would be much more accepting of that list of 8 rather than the current Frostbite list for example.​
No, this is not what I'm going to be running, but if the time comes that larger lists are out for good, then I believe Hazards ON is a solid alternative. There are other potential stages too such as Duck Hunt.​

Anyway, I'd love to hear any thoughts about Hazards On. I don't think it's what we should resort to right now, considering FoD hasn't been fixed yet, but I believe it will offer a perfect alternative if majors start running 5 stage lists. At that point, we're running so little we might as well use Hazards On rather than Off. We get a better Smashville, more variance in our stages, and some fan favorites get put in too. It's a win-win scenario.
I’m not necessarily opposed to hazards on, but I think it takes away some darn good stages and adds even more stages people have a problem with. Lots of people dislike both yoshis, Lylat, they’d probably whine about PS stage shifts (which I also think would be problematic tbh), and there are lots of triplats (Lylat, bf, story, dreamland, fountain). 4/5 counter picks are triplats, so if you don’t want those, there’s no way to avoid them with strikes.

I think there’s not enough diversity and a little too many not so great variables for a hazards on stagelist to be practical

Edit: whoops, left yoshis story out of first picture
A0B13D9A-FD78-41C3-83DB-A75CBDB32C40.jpeg
15D4F285-8BB9-41F0-B598-1FF5A57FB1B8.jpeg
 
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Mooer

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
47
Location
Canada
can anyone explain the issues people have with slants? I don’t get it
One of the only reasonable complaints I've heard against slants is that projectiles with RNG trajectories are unfairly disadvantaged. Mewtwo's Shadow Ball is the only one I've actually seen have issues, because the ball wriggles up and down it can disappear into a slant as it's being fired which doesn't feel so good. I've also had opponents complain about grabbing on slants where it sometimes feels like it should connect but because of the height difference on the slant it whiffs.

For what it's worth, I don't think these "issues" are enough to ban slants and neither does a sparring partner of mine who is currently using Mewtwo as his main. It's just something for players to adapt to.
 

Alias Tex

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 19, 2018
Messages
29
Switch FC
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On the subject of hazards on or off, there is the whole "ruleset for each stage" idea that makes the two not mutually exclusive.

You just create a ruleset for every legal stage: set "stage selection" to "random," and set "random stages" to a single stage, repeat until you have a ruleset for each hazard on or off variation. Fixes mistakes and makes it easier to find the stage that you want.

I think that this is totally the way to go if we get some good hazards-on stages. Right now we only have a couple, but if FoD and Yoshi's get fixed and some of the DLC stages work well with it then things would be pretty spectacular.
 

ATH_

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On the subject of hazards on or off, there is the whole "ruleset for each stage" idea that makes the two not mutually exclusive.

You just create a ruleset for every legal stage: set "stage selection" to "random," and set "random stages" to a single stage, repeat until you have a ruleset for each hazard on or off variation. Fixes mistakes and makes it easier to find the stage that you want.

I think that this is totally the way to go if we get some good hazards-on stages. Right now we only have a couple, but if FoD and Yoshi's get fixed and some of the DLC stages work well with it then things would be pretty spectacular.
I've posted about this before, and I still think this has huge potential. It really would fix a lot of our issues.

I’m not necessarily opposed to hazards on, but I think it takes away some darn good stages and adds even more stages people have a problem with. Lots of people dislike both yoshis, Lylat, they’d probably whine about PS stage shifts (which I also think would be problematic tbh), and there are lots of triplats (Lylat, bf, story, dreamland, fountain). 4/5 counter picks are triplats, so if you don’t want those, there’s no way to avoid them with strikes.

I think there’s not enough diversity and a little too many not so great variables for a hazards on stagelist to be practical

Edit: whoops, left yoshis story out of first picture
View attachment 192479View attachment 192480
To clarify further, I am not saying Hazards On should be the norm now. I prefer Restricted Lenient myself, however I think that if the TOs of majors decide that we're going to use a 5 stage list, I think we might as well use Hazards On because we'll be able to include at least a 6th stage, if not more.

You're totally right that there's a lot of stage with 3 platforms, but it's not the count that matters here. FoD's layout is a triangle triplat, but the platforms are dynamic. Grouping it with Battlefield is like saying T&C is Battlefield because it starts with 3 platforms inverted.

Lylat's layout is different, and supports different things. The platforms are smaller, and the top platform acts as an actual middle platform. This promotes more rush-down style characters, and punishes campy playstyles.

Though, I will say Dreamland and Yoshi's Story are definitely up there with Battlefield. As stated previously, the goal is not to allow every single one of these stages. It's to show that you can make a list that has more than 5 starters using Hazards On.

A stage's balance has never been about the "number" of platforms, it's about the layout and dynamics of that layout, as well as any moving parts of course.

Hazards Off is far better if we're going for a list bigger than 7 stages, but it looks like major TOs are leaning towards 5 stage lists, and I have a feeling within a year that's what'll happen.
 
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Sean²

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If they just had a hazards off toggle like they do BF and Omega. The arguments against some of these stages just completely dies then. Why Nintendo?
 
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Tesh

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If they just had a hazards off toggle like they do BF and Omega. The arguments against some of these stages just completely dies then. Why Nintendo?
Realistically what do we get out of that? Smashville (already legal anyway) and IF FoD ever got fixed maybe that too but we already have BF and YS, do we even WANT a 3rd triangle triplat?


And if being dynamic justifies FoD, are we turning Dreamland on too?

You know what I really want? The blast zones on WarioWare fixed. Most people would be fine with that small stage if the blast zones weren't also crazy small.
 

ATH_

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Realistically what do we get out of that? Smashville (already legal anyway) and IF FoD ever got fixed maybe that too but we already have BF and YS, do we even WANT a 3rd triangle triplat?


And if being dynamic justifies FoD, are we turning Dreamland on too?

You know what I really want? The blast zones on WarioWare fixed. Most people would be fine with that small stage if the blast zones weren't also crazy small.
Smashville with and Smashville without hazards would easily warrant two different slots. Even if not, hazards Smashville is so much better and really welcome.

I'm a little confused about your logic here. The word dynamic under these contexts means different things. For Fountain it means the platforms move and might not be there. For Dreamland it means wispy pushes the players in a direction at random. These are two very different things, so where's the connection? That they both have the word "Dynamic" attached to them? That's silly.

We would get better T&C. The stage wouln't be "effectively FD" anymore and would act like a completely unique stage.

It's not like there's nothing to be gained from it, even if it was just one stage, one stage is a big deal. I don't get the logic behind "We only get one stage, who cares?" It's nonsense.

Also, other people just believe the quick-toggle would be convenient for play outside of competitive play. I know that isn't what this thread is about, but it's really weird how they implemented it this time around.
 
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