Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Krysco]

I've always liked this stage, but it actually screws over many recoveries in this game. You have to be directly at the edge to snap, otherwise you can just fall right through and die. Magnet hands aren't as prevalent in this game, so this is a decent portion of the cast. The ledge is also somewhat veiled by the front part of the stage and is extremely misleading. If you're going to push for a sharkable stage, I'd say Skyloft would probably be the only realistic one to aim for. You can clearly see the ledges on that stage.



Wouldn't this stage promote some hardcore circle camping?



Slopes have been a contention point since at least Brawl, albeit a very small one. It was usually just used as a supporting argument to back up a real concern - like Yoshi's having the side platforms appear randomly and saving people, or Lylat tilting/bad ledges. Usually it would just delegate the stages as a counterpick, due to there already being a small amount of viable stages back then. I don't recall anyone requesting a ban only because of slopes.

I still think people are overreacting to them in Ultimate. People, for the most part, don't like them much, and some claim they'll go to great lengths to see them banned. I think it's mostly just due to being accustomed to playing on flat stages for so many years, since both Melee and Smash 4 whittled down their stagelists to mainly flat, symmetrical stages. M2K is a bit of a relic from another time (lol) - he played in the Melee meta when they still had stuff like Rainbow Cruise and Mute City as legal counterpicks. I guess that's why I kind of agree with him. They had way more hazards to deal with at almost every tournament, so from that point of view, it would seem like most newer players being unable to handle something fairly miniscule within the two months kind of off-putting.

Void's statements and reactions aren't from an objective standpoint, either. I doubt you'd see him do that in tournament. Also it looked to me like Roy was just a tiny bit too low to grab ledge anyway - I feel like he would have done the same on BF or FD.

On another note I find it ironic that in the same video he got a 0-death loop string the moment the platforms left T&C. I understand wanting to be able to perform the things you practiced correctly as close to 100% of the time as possible, but it doesn't necessarily mean something else should be banned because of it.

Yeah, I'm not trying to say that VoiD's comments are 100% foolproof and that what he says should be done or anything like that. I just like that he at least makes the smallest attempt to explain why he wants certain stages banned. Most others just go 'Jaaaaaaaank' or hardly explain themselves. There was a video posted last Sunday where M2K and Salem were talking about the stage list for Frostbite and when they got to talking about YIB, Salem also mentions how small characters can abuse the ledges just like VoiD did in his video but he also says the ledges make it easier to 2 frame. M2K then says it's MU dependent and Salem just says 'not too much'. There's close to 80 characters in this game so unless he checked every single one of them and their options against numerous types of recoveries, there's no real way to know how big of a deal that'd even turn out to be. That's the kinda stuff I hate seeing when it comes to stage discussion. Lack of explanation.

The video I'm talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SKJ6q9Hjuo8 around the 17:30 mark. And to be fair, Salem wasn't saying the stage should be banned but rather a counterpick.

 

[Game7a1]

I swore there was a clip I'd seen before of VoiD's Pichu crouching on the edge of YIB and whoever he was playing, they either had a mic on or they were in the same room as him and they couldn't hit him with a few attacks and they both commented on it but I couldn't find it even after watching all of VoiD's vids.

Was it this?

 

[Shieldlesscap]

I think the point is to test one stage at a time. Overflowing a list with stages that probably will be banned for the sake of data will have players shying away.

I'd say testing one at a time is great idea, if that is the intention.

I can understand that, but I think Tomodachi and Mushroom Kingdom U shouldn't be tested until some of the less controversial but still controversial stage picks are.

 

[Krysco]

Was it this?

Yup! That was the one! Figured it was on someone else's channel after looking through VoiD's vids but I watch a bit of him, ESAM, Nairo, Armada and Leffen so I didn't wanna go through every possible channel and video just to find it. Thanks for finding it!

Edit: Since the clip has been linked, for anyone who doesn't care to watch, it's Nairo's ZSS vs VoiD's Pichu and he crouches on the right edge of YIB. Nairo tries Paralyzer, Boost Kick or whatever up b is called, Plasma Whip and grab and they all whiff. I assume dtilt, dsmash, dair and dash attack would hit but they're not all ideal moves to use, namely the last two.

 

[MarioManTAW]

Wouldn't this stage promote some hardcore circle camping?

In my testing, I never saw how it could be abused to camp (and I am the most likely player to camp in my scene). Which characters do you think have a realistic chance to camp it out?
-Probably not Snake, since he can't even fullhop to the platforms.
-Probably not the Belmonts, who don't have much movement speed, especially vertically.
-Villager, maybe, but Balloon Trip is realistically the only way he has of getting around and is quite vulnerable.

I'm just not sure how many characters can reasonably vertically camp in this game. Plus, there are some other things Tomodachi Life has going for it over other vertical stages, like Duck Hunt, for instance, which has been proposed by some.
-The three-level layout means that all characters can actually maneuver around the stage.
-That, combined with the fact that the platforms cover the width of the stage makes it more difficult to effectively camp. If we're talking about circle camping, you can go to the top platform, but once you're there and your opponent catches you, you either have to drop through the platform, which I think is generally unfavorable, or go off-stage. Can you really circle camp if you have to go off-stage to make a circle?
-Compared to Duck Hunt or even, say, Battlefield, I think it would be harder to maintain a camping position via projectiles. On other stages, especially if you have access to something like Villager bowling ball or Snake missiles, you can prevent your opponent from reaching you with a wall of projectiles. On Tomodachi Life, the platforms cover the entire stage, so bowling balls only work if the opponent comes up through the platform next to you. Snake missiles would have to be guided around the whole stage to reach an opponent on a lower level. Belmonts are perhaps a special case, since axes go through platforms, but even that only covers a very specific angle, which is not where the opponent wants to be anyway.

I've heard that the stage promotes camping, but I still have yet to see how this would happen.

I can understand that, but I think Tomodachi and Mushroom Kingdom U shouldn't be tested until some of the less controversial but still controversial stage picks are.

Honestly, I don't think MKU is that controversial, and for Tomodachi Life, that is one that I am testing because literally no one else is even considering it but I think it could have potential. I am testing a lot of things this tournament, and these are the things I have decided to test. (I briefly mentioned this in my original post, but I also plan on trying PXP1 for the first time). Also, several of my stages test if certain things are actually a problem or not:
-Lylat/Castle Siege: slopes
-WarioWare: close side blastzones
-Mushroom Kingdom U: big stage
-Tomodachi Life: verticality
-Wuhu Island: semi-solid platforms
That last one is in my mind, a bit of a prerequisite for at least 2 of the 3 stages you mentioned. If I'm trying to test if semi-solids are fine, I only want one stage for that, the most "normal" one (based largely on a previous post by Muno discussing Wuhu vs Skyloft). If Wuhu seems fine, then I might consider adding Skyloft and maybe eventually Kongo Jungle. I just need to do things one step at a time.

 

[Sean²]

Yup! That was the one! Figured it was on someone else's channel after looking through VoiD's vids but I watch a bit of him, ESAM, Nairo, Armada and Leffen so I didn't wanna go through every possible channel and video just to find it. Thanks for finding it!

Edit: Since the clip has been linked, for anyone who doesn't care to watch, it's Nairo's ZSS vs VoiD's Pichu and he crouches on the right edge of YIB. Nairo tries Paralyzer, Boost Kick or whatever up b is called, Plasma Whip and grab and they all whiff. I assume dtilt, dsmash, dair and dash attack would hit but they're not all ideal moves to use, namely the last two.

Eh, there are a lot of characters who have moves who could have dealt with that more easily. All that’s telling me is to ban that stage when I’m playing against small characters with low crouches. Which is a fairly small portion of the game. Should any realistic opponent have the audacity and patience to do that.

In my testing, I never saw how it could be abused to camp (and I am the most likely player to camp in my scene). Which characters do you think have a realistic chance to camp it out?
-Probably not Snake, since he can't even fullhop to the platforms.
-Probably not the Belmonts, who don't have much movement speed, especially vertically.
-Villager, maybe, but Balloon Trip is realistically the only way he has of getting around and is quite vulnerable.

I'm just not sure how many characters can reasonably vertically camp in this game. Plus, there are some other things Tomodachi Life has going for it over other vertical stages, like Duck Hunt, for instance, which has been proposed by some.
-The three-level layout means that all characters can actually maneuver around the stage.
-That, combined with the fact that the platforms cover the width of the stage makes it more difficult to effectively camp. If we're talking about circle camping, you can go to the top platform, but once you're there and your opponent catches you, you either have to drop through the platform, which I think is generally unfavorable, or go off-stage. Can you really circle camp if you have to go off-stage to make a circle?
-Compared to Duck Hunt or even, say, Battlefield, I think it would be harder to maintain a camping position via projectiles. On other stages, especially if you have access to something like Villager bowling ball or Snake missiles, you can prevent your opponent from reaching you with a wall of projectiles. On Tomodachi Life, the platforms cover the entire stage, so bowling balls only work if the opponent comes up through the platform next to you. Snake missiles would have to be guided around the whole stage to reach an opponent on a lower level. Belmonts are perhaps a special case, since axes go through platforms, but even that only covers a very specific angle, which is not where the opponent wants to be anyway.

I've heard that the stage promotes camping, but I still have yet to see how this would happen.

Honestly, I don't think MKU is that controversial, and for Tomodachi Life, that is one that I am testing because literally no one else is even considering it but I think it could have potential. I am testing a lot of things this tournament, and these are the things I have decided to test. (I briefly mentioned this in my original post, but I also plan on trying PXP1 for the first time). Also, several of my stages test if certain things are actually a problem or not:
-Lylat/Castle Siege: slopes
-WarioWare: close side blastzones
-Mushroom Kingdom U: big stage
-Tomodachi Life: verticality
-Wuhu Island: semi-solid platforms
That last one is in my mind, a bit of a prerequisite for at least 2 of the 3 stages you mentioned. If I'm trying to test if semi-solids are fine, I only want one stage for that, the most "normal" one (based largely on a previous post by Muno discussing Wuhu vs Skyloft). If Wuhu seems fine, then I might consider adding Skyloft and maybe eventually Kongo Jungle. I just need to do things one step at a time.

I don’t mean projectile camping, I meant fast characters who can hit and run, then just refuse to interact the rest of the game after they get a stock or percent lead. I’m talking Sonic, Pikachu, Pichu, Palutena, Meta Knight, etc. That list goes on and on. And basically anyone with a good full hop/double jump or an up B that they can act out of, like Falco and Megaman for starters. Just seems like you can run without any realistic chance of half the cast catching you.

 

[Krysco]

Eh, there are a lot of characters who have moves who could have dealt with that more easily. All that’s telling me is to ban that stage when I’m playing against small characters with low crouches. Which is a fairly small portion of the game. Should any realistic opponent have the audacity and patience to do that.

I agree. Most, if not all dtilts should be able to reach as well as most dsmashes, dash attacks and some aerials as well. It does however limit your options. In the clip, Nairo likely went for those options partially because it was friendlies and he didn't have to try his hardest but also because he's against a Pichu that's over 100%. If VoiD is just gonna sit there and leave himself open, going for Paralyzer or Boost Kick would lead to a KO whereas dtilt, dash attack and dair wouldn't. Dsmash probably would have and I have no idea why he didn't try it.

There are some dtilts that are probably too risky to try in a real match if this issue came up, namely those of Cloud, Dedede, maybe K. Rool, Mega Man, maybe Ness and any other stubby dtilts I'm forgetting, Olimar and the Belmonts.

As for the crouches that would cause this issue in the first place, the most notable would be Puff, Kirby, G&W, Pichu, Pikachu, Squirtle, Sheik and possibly some others. Some characters like MK, Ness, Little Mac, Sonic and the Mario's might crouch low enough. I'm also not too sure about Snake and Wii Fit Trainer since they spread themselves pretty horizontally when crouching and may go over the slant when crouching, would have to try it out.

But as you said, you can just ban the stage against a character that can exploit it if your own character of choice can't deal with it. The only meta relevant characters I can think of that can exploit this are the rats anyways.

 

[Akiak]

I really think WW should be a legal counterpick.

That or we cut one of FD/Kalos/TnC/PS2, which would be unfortunate.

In Melee, YS' side-blastzones were ~175, as opposed to 180 for WW (source) and it's width was 112, as opposed to 117 for WW (source).

The average stage size in Melee was 146.11

 

[Munomario777]

siege > WW imo, if you're looking for a small stage

 

[Akiak]

I mean, that works too

it's just that the slant might make the stage unviable for some chars who depend heavily on certain ground options or projectiles that get messed up by it

so they can't pick it as their small stage anymore

whereas WW really has no jank of that sort.. It's a very standard stage at the end of the day

you can always pick it if you want to counter a zoner. there's no ambiguity there

but that's my take, I also just find WW way more interesting/cool/fun to play on. they're both ok tho as small stages tho, sure

(I feel like CS is also more disliked than WW generally, could be wrong)

 

[Sean²]

I mean, that works too

it's just that the slant might make the stage unviable for some chars who depend heavily on certain ground options or projectiles that get messed up by it

so they can't pick it as their small stage anymore

whereas WW really has no jank of that sort.. It's a very standard stage at the end of the day

you can always pick it if you want to counter a zoner. there's no ambiguity there

but that's my take, I also just find WW way more interesting/cool/fun to play on. they're both ok tho as small stages tho, sure

(I feel like CS is also more disliked than WW generally, could be wrong)

WW has been generally disliked for the entirety of the game's existence so far. People started complaining about the blastzones within the first week, CS only started to get major heat during and after Genesis.

And if you're a zoner, ban CS in the set if you don't like how your projectiles behave on it. A lot of projectile characters actually benefit from the slope on CS. Things like Link's boomerang may do some funky stuff if it hits the slope directly, but like I said, just ban it. I'd be willing to argue that very few projectile heavy characters are going to want to go to that small of a stage anyway. Maybe ROB, but he does well anywhere.

 

[Frihetsanka]

siege > WW imo, if you're looking for a small stage

Perhaps, but do we really need more than three small stages? Smashville is a given, and Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story (Brawl) are going to be tested at Frostbite, that's three small stages already. Castle Siege? Not a very good stage (probably better than WarioWare though).

 

[Lore]

They're getting tested at Frostbite? Excellent.

How does their size compare to Siege?

Side note, I do apologize for being a bit harsh earlier. I do think you were being a bit arrogant, but that was the wrong way to go about it. Not to mention the fact that I hadn't accounted for discord discussion.

 

[Akiak]

WW has been generally disliked for the entirety of the game's existence so far. People started complaining about the blastzones within the first week, CS only started to get major heat during and after Genesis.

And if you're a zoner, ban CS in the set if you don't like how your projectiles behave on it. A lot of projectile characters actually benefit from the slope on CS. Things like Link's boomerang may do some funky stuff if it hits the slope directly, but like I said, just ban it. I'd be willing to argue that very few projectile heavy characters are going to want to go to that small of a stage anyway. Maybe ROB, but he does well anywhere.

The problem with that is you can't use it as your counterpick anymore. Basically if I'm playing against a zoner, but my character gets ****ed up by the slant on CS, then my opponent can afford not to waste his ban on CS, and he gets another ban.

Whereas with WW that would never happen, so it's more 'balanced' in that way.

As for popularity, I wouldn't be too sure about CS > WW. Poll it imo. WW was just talked about more early on because we all thought it'd be legal

 

[Sean²]

The problem with that is you can't use it as your counterpick anymore. Basically if I'm playing against a zoner, but my character gets ****ed up by the slant on CS, then my opponent can afford not to waste his ban on CS, and he gets another ban.

Whereas with WW that would never happen, so it's more 'balanced' in that way.

As for popularity, I wouldn't be too sure about CS > WW. Poll it imo. WW was just talked about more early on because we all thought it'd be legal

Okay then poll it. I'm down for both being legal but we've already discussed that ad nauseam.

And you're only going to get boned by a projectile character if they have a projectile big enough to cover the ledge if they shoot it along the ground (aka, Samus, Lucario.), AND are offstage for some reason on the right side, AND they know to edgeguard from the middle of the stage, AND they actually have most of a charge already. See what I mean? Lots of factors in play. Most projectile characters like stages where they can make room to make setups. If you're in their face, they can't do that as well.

 

[Lore]

How many characters actually get boned by the slope?

 

[Akiak]

Perhaps, but do we really need more than three small stages? Smashville is a given, and Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story (Brawl) are going to be tested at Frostbite, that's three small stages already. Castle Siege? Not a very good stage (probably better than WarioWare though).

See my post on the previous page. From my point of view FD KPL TC PS2 are all 'campy stages', so you need 4 'anti-campy' stages to balance that out: CS/WW, YS, YIB, SV

So if you're running 2 bans, zoner is guaranteed TC (or PS2), anti-zoner is guaranteed YIB (or SV)

They're getting tested at Frostbite? Excellent.

How does their size compare to Siege?

Side note, I do apologize for being a bit harsh earlier. I do think you were being a bit arrogant, but that was the wrong way to go about it. Not to mention the fact that I hadn't accounted for discord discussion.

http://tournameta.com/stage-comparison/ this site is godlike for sizes and all that (enable stats to see the numbers)

also Telu's old spreadsheet

Okay then poll it. I'm down for both being legal but we've already discussed that ad nauseam.

And you're only going to get boned by a projectile character if they have a projectile big enough to cover the ledge if they shoot it along the ground (aka, Samus, Lucario.), AND are offstage for some reason on the right side, AND they know to edgeguard from the middle of the stage, AND they actually have most of a charge already. See what I mean? Lots of factors in play. Most projectile characters like stages where they can make room to make setups. If you're in their face, they can't do that as well.

I'm not against CS, I just prefer WW to it

 

[Frihetsanka]

They're getting tested at Frostbite? Excellent.

How does their size compare to Siege?

Frostbite uses 9 stages, the Genesis 6 stage list minus Castle Siege and Unova.[/quote]Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is 140 (stage size), around the same size as Smashville (which, apparently, is 139), but with slightly smaller side blastzones and slightly lower ceiling (220 side blastzones compared to 230 for SV, 180 ceiling compared to 190). Interestingly enough, YIB has the same blastzones as Smash 4 Smashville (with Ultimate Smashville having slightly larger blastzones). Yoshi's Story's stage size is 136, so slightly smaller. Side blastzones 227, slightly smaller as well (Ultimate Battlefield 240, although Smash 4 Battlefield had bigger side blastzones and a slightly smaller main stage), ceiling 180. In comparison, Final Destination, Battlefield, and Lylat Cruise are all 160 main stage size, Pokémon Stadium 2 188.

Castle Siege, main stage 131, side blastzones 210, ceiling 180 from the left side. WarioWare, 117 stage size, side blastzones 180 (!), ceiling 199 (in practice). So Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Yoshi's Story are both larger than Castle Siege and WarioWare, but still noticeably smaller than the other legal stages. Arguably, none of the "large" stages are really that much larger than the average (with Pokémon Stadium 2 standing out a bit in stage size but not blastzones), WarioWare is a much more extreme stage than Pokémon Stadium 2 or Battlefield.

Side note, I do apologize for being a bit harsh earlier. I do think you were being a bit arrogant, but that was the wrong way to go about it. Not to mention the fact that I hadn't accounted for discord discussion.

Apology accepted. I do admit I get a bit tired of repeating the same discussions we've had for over two months now, and I do think that it's a little annoying to discuss stages we've already tested and analyzed and concluded that they're bad. The Frostbite stage list does have some potential and I'm willing to give Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) some more time, even though I think they might be a little redundant. I still don't think WarioWare or Castle Siege really should get tested much more at majors at this point, I'd argue that they've already been proven bad.

 

[Lore]

I do still disagree that they are proven bad, but I'm also very tired. Tomorrow I will read the data you posted and give an honest re-evaluation of my own opinion, with this fresh data in mind. Thanks.

 

[Mooer]

Pokémon Stadium 2 standing out a bit in stage size

Do you feel PS1 would make an appropriate replacement?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Do you feel PS1 would make an appropriate replacement?

I don't know, I don't think so, PS1 has the same blastzones as PS2* but smaller main stage. This would make it the absolute worst stage for characters with exploitable recoveries, since they would get gimped more often, meanwhile characters with good recoveries would live longer since the blast zone is further away from the ledge.

*Aside from the bottom blastzone which rarely matters.

 

[Mooer]

I don't know, I don't think so, PS1 has the same blastzones as PS2* but smaller main stage. This would make it the absolute worst stage for characters with exploitable recoveries, since they would get gimped more often, meanwhile characters with good recoveries would live longer since the blast zone is further away from the ledge.

*Aside from the bottom blastzone which rarely matters.

This video was recently posted and it compares the stages pretty thoroughly:
https://youtu.be/HLX5CdLU8uk

After watching this and considering what I’ve been testing, I’m now more inlcined to believe PS2 is a better fit for tournament play

 

[Lore]

Frostbite uses 9 stages, the Genesis 6 stage list minus Castle Siege and Unova. Yoshi's Island (Brawl) is 140 (stage size), around the same size as Smashville (which, apparently, is 139), but with slightly smaller side blastzones and slightly lower ceiling (220 side blastzones compared to 230 for SV, 180 ceiling compared to 190). Interestingly enough, YIB has the same blastzones as Smash 4 Smashville (with Ultimate Smashville having slightly larger blastzones). Yoshi's Story's stage size is 136, so slightly smaller. Side blastzones 227, slightly smaller as well (Ultimate Battlefield 240, although Smash 4 Battlefield had bigger side blastzones and a slightly smaller main stage), ceiling 180. In comparison, Final Destination, Battlefield, and Lylat Cruise are all 160 main stage size, Pokémon Stadium 2 188.

Castle Siege, main stage 131, side blastzones 210, ceiling 180 from the left side. WarioWare, 117 stage size, side blastzones 180 (!), ceiling 199 (in practice). So Yoshi's Island (Brawl) and Yoshi's Story are both larger than Castle Siege and WarioWare, but still noticeably smaller than the other legal stages. Arguably, none of the "large" stages are really that much larger than the average (with Pokémon Stadium 2 standing out a bit in stage size but not blastzones), WarioWare is a much more extreme stage than Pokémon Stadium 2 or Battlefield.

Apology accepted. I do admit I get a bit tired of repeating the same discussions we've had for over two months now, and I do think that it's a little annoying to discuss stages we've already tested and analyzed and concluded that they're bad. The Frostbite stage list does have some potential and I'm willing to give Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island (Brawl) some more time, even though I think they might be a little redundant. I still don't think WarioWare or Castle Siege really should get tested much more at majors at this point, I'd argue that they've already been proven bad.

After reviewing the actual sizes more closely, I see that yeah, Warioware is a massively smaller stage compared to others. This was especially seen using the visual tool posted by Akiak (thanks!). I also agree that Warioware may be a much more extreme stage than Stadium 2, and my support for the stage has dwindled only to being a ban tool to lower the average picked stage size. That's about it.

My personal opinion now is that I'd still prefer to see Castle Siege legal, due to the smaller main stage size. I'm not quite sure what you mean about Siege being "proven bad." However, the frostbite stage list looks potentially balanced, and I'm interested to see what results come from it.

I also still think that having Warioware and Siege on at the same time could lead to stage bans averaging out to an overall smaller stage size (since WW will be perma-banned against heavies), and I'd love to see a major event test it out. That's more wishful thinking than anything else, though.

Thank you for posting your data. I'm definitely leaning more towards your direction, with some caveats and preference towards Castle Siege.

 

[earthboundspacefree]

Perhaps, but do we really need more than three small stages? Smashville is a given, and Yoshi's Island and Yoshi's Story (Brawl) are going to be tested at Frostbite, that's three small stages already. Castle Siege? Not a very good stage (probably better than WarioWare though).

We need enough small stages to balance out the amount of large stages. There are currently 6 large stages, which means 3 small stages is not enough, especially since smashville is a couple units away from being a purely average stage.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Thank you for posting your data.

Technically not my data, I'm relying on what other people have found out (I haven't measured anything myself, though several people have verified it so I assume it's correct or mostly correct).

There are currently 6 large stages[...]

No?

Stage size:

Pokémon Stadium 2: 188
Town & City: 164
Unova: 163.5/164 (most say 164, I've seen a few say 163.5, doesn't make much of a difference anyway)
Final Destination/Battlefield/Lylat Cruise/Kalos Pokémon League: 160
Yoshi's Island (Brawl): 140
Smashville: 139
Yoshi's Story: 136
Castle Siege: 131
WarioWare: 117

Not quite sure where you get "6 large stages" from. Medium size seems to be 160, Pokémon Stadium 2 is 28 units larger than that, T&C/Unova 4 units larger (Unova is cut for Frostbite anyway, and if you're worried about too many larger stages you could cut Unova too), Yoshi's Island is 20 units smaller, Smashville 21, Yoshi's Story 24, Castle Siege 29. WarioWare stands out as an extreme, being 43 units smaller than the medium size stages, and with significantly smaller side blastzones (180, the second smallest is Castle Siege with 210, and then Yoshi's Island Brawl with 220).

Anyway, some people make the case that Town & City and Kalos are large stages because Kalos has platforms outside of the stage and Town & City has similar platforms in one transformation. I'm not sure if I really buy that argument but even if you do that's just 3 large stages, not 6. Do you consider Final Destination, Battlefield, Lylat Cruise large stages, then? And presumably Unova, but since you mentioned 6 I assume you predict that it'll stay banned after Frostbite.

Let's assume we go with a 9 stage list: All stages I listed except WarioWare, Castle Siege, and Unova. Then we would have:

1-3 large stages
3-5 medium stages
3 small stages

Even in a 9 stage list it doesn't seem to me that large stages are dominating. Let's say we're going with a 12 stage list, adding WarioWare, Castle Siege, and Unova:

1-4 large stages
3-6 medium stages
5 small stages

Now it seems like we have too many small stages! As such, it seems to me that the argument that we should add Castle Siege and/or WarioWare to counter-act large stages doesn't actually hold with the current stage list.

 

[earthboundspacefree]

stuff

Smashville and Lylat are the closest to average size, WW/seige/yoshix2 are the stages that are smaller than that average, whereas all 3 poke stages, T&C, BF, FD are all above that average. Objectively, there are significantly more large stages than small. Even counting SV as a small stage, I added the difference from average of the small and large stages. With WW and seige, the low/high totals are 43.7/54.6. That’s decent, at least, not a huge deviation. Without WW and Seige, the low/high totals are 24.0/54.6 - that’s significant, and clearly demonstrates that larger stages are definitely more prominent. As to whether there should be smaller stages as well, that’s another discussion, but to say there aren’t that many larger stages is false. (My numbers are from average of top and side blastzones, and stage length, but taking each individually would yield the same data).

Something has to change. I think the most practical solution (as I’ve said before) is swap fd and yi brawl as starter/counterpick, and make FD/Kalos/Town into one strike, along with 3 bans. That’s all without adding WW and Seige, and gives equal starters and counterpick stage size.

Again, my solution is arguable, and I welcome argument, but stage data says that small stages are definitely lacking.

 

[Lore]

Frihetsanka I think the argument for Town + City and Kalos is fairly sound, given the platforms.

I also think FD is a stage that benefits characters with strong projectiles and fast speeds for pretty clear reasons, making the size matter more than, say, Battlefield. HOWEVER that's a different discussion than what is currently going on, which I freely admit. Actually, maybe it's less about the size and more about the structure for those?

Fair point on the stage list, though. Let's look at the Frostbite stages, and for now, I will categorize FD as "large" due to the above. My finding was interesting.

Battlefield (medium)
Final Destination ("large")
Lylat Cruise (medium)
Pokemon Stadium 2 (large)
Smashville (small)
Kalos Pokemon League ("large" due to platforms and the flatness of the main stage, similar to FD with that)
Town & City (I'd argue as large)
Yoshi’s Story (small)
Yoshi’s Island (Brawl) (small)

Which brings the total to 4 "large", 2 medium, and 3 small, with "large" including stages that may not be large size-wise but certainly benefit certain characters.

Adding Castle Siege for a 10 stage list balances out the total, but the total isn't quite as lop-sided as I once believed. Still not great though. However, I'm totally fine with giving up on Warioware; you were right, I think. It is small enough to tilt matchups more than a "large" stage would.

Edit: earthboundspacefree Yeah I am starting to think that the flatness of FD is more important than the size itself, tbh. Your FD and YI Brawl swap is fairly reasonable.

 

[Munomario777]

Smashville and Lylat are the closest to average size, WW/seige/yoshix2 are the stages that are smaller than that average, whereas all 3 poke stages, T&C, BF, FD are all above that average.

smashville 139
lylat 160
unova 164
BF 160
FD 160

?????????

 

[earthboundspacefree]

smashville 139
lylat 160
unova 164
BF 160
FD 160

?????????

Please either read the rest of what I posted, or look at the spreadsheet. Quoting one of the numbers that deals with stage sizing issues doesn’t help. Obviously according to stage size, it’s slightly below average, but with all factors considered, my point stands. Lylat and SV and FD are the most average stages overall (though my point with FD is that a) being a flat stage and kinda big means it should be a counterpick and b) kalos and T&C create a bunch of overlap with FD, which is a problem)

So with my solution, you’d have:
Starters:
Ps2 - large
BF - large
Lylat - average
Yi brawl - small
SV - small

2/1/2 by size

Counterpicks:

Fd/Kalos/T&C - large
Unova - large
Story - small

2/1 seems fine to me, but if people decided to add castle, I wouldn’t oppose - isn’t necessary though. W/ 3 bans, someone who wants a big stage could ban story, brawl, and SV, which means you’d end up on an averageish stage. Wanting a small stage, you’d strike something like PS2, FD, Unova, and the largest stage you’d be on is BF. Seems fair on both sides.

 

[Munomario777]

you're saying that SV (139) and lylat (160) are the closest to the average width

and that BF (160) is significantly larger than that average width

160 is not significantly larger than 160

if you're talking about blast zones, then that's an entirely separate matter from stage size (which you didn't specify IIRC )

the spreadsheet is private btw. i can't access it

 

[earthboundspacefree]

you're saying that SV (139) and lylat (160) are the closest to the average width

and that BF (160) is significantly larger than that average width

160 is not significantly larger than 160

if you're talking about blast zones, then that's an entirely separate matter from stage size (which you didn't specify IIRC )

the spreadsheet is private btw. i can't access it

Whoops, I just posted a screenshot instead

No, I was saying averaging length, and both blastzones (which are the components people discuss when calling a stage large or small), those stages are where they are. If you’re talking just stage size, sure, SV is small, and I conceded that point in my post at the end. However, stage size isn’t the only factor

 

[Munomario777]

i see what you're saying now that the spreadsheet works, but IMO the usefulness of averaging all the values is questionable. it misleadingly paints SV as an average size stage, for example. its smallness is very very important even though its blastzones aren't small. calling SV an average size stage because it's tiny but has a high ceiling doesn't seem very useful or descriptive. similarly, BF is in the "large" category purely because of its high ceiling, even though it's the exact same width as lylat etc.

in your starter list, there's a bias toward small stages (as in the width of the actual stage), even though your averaged measurement would imply that the sizes are balanced. island and smashville are small, lylat and battlefield are average, and PS2 is large. among other things, this limits the power of zoners compared to heavies, etc. looking at each attribute separately (stage width, blastzones, ceiling, platform layout, etc) seems a lot more useful to me than lumping everything together.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I also think FD is a stage that benefits characters with strong projectiles and fast speeds for pretty clear reasons, making the size matter more than, say, Battlefield. HOWEVER that's a different discussion than what is currently going on, which I freely admit.

I'd argue that if FD can be considered "large" because it benefits projectile users, then Lylat can probably be considered "small", since, from my understanding, the platform layout and slants tend to be bad for projectile users.

Obviously according to stage size, it’s slightly below average, but with all factors considered, my point stands.

Presumably, when talking about stage size and not blastzone size, stage size is what matters. If you want to include blastzones, you should say so. Most blastzones are similar-ish anyway, so stage size and number of platforms arguably matters more in general (with stages like WarioWare and Halberd being exceptions, though neither are likely to end up legal in the long run).

 

[earthboundspacefree]

I'd argue that if FD can be considered "large" because it benefits projectile users, then Lylat can probably be considered "small", since, from my understanding, the platform layout and slants tend to be bad for projectile users.

Presumably, when talking about stage size and not blastzone size, stage size is what matters. If you want to include blastzones, you should say so. Most blastzones are similar-ish anyway, so stage size and number of platforms arguably matters more in general (with stages like WarioWare and Halberd being exceptions, though neither are likely to end up legal in the long run).

I mentioned blast zones in the post. My whole argument was considering all size factors as a whole... “My numbers are from average of top and side blastzones, and stage length”

The point you made with Lylat is fair, but do you not agree that having all 3 of fd, kalos, and town unfairly slants the stage choices towards large, projectile favoring stages?

 

[M4NIAC]

Hello, and welcome to the Stagelist Discussion thread. This is a continuation from the previous thread by GamerGuy09. Many changes have occurred and information has come to light since E3, and as such some re-evaluation with a fresh take is in order. I've tried to keep a low bias with information for the plausible stages and strongly recommend discussion of stages in an informative manner. You may also find Bans.Page helpful for you, designed by WaveParadigm and Invis.

If you have any suggestions for this thread, please feel free to voice them. Much of this is based upon Kyokoro's stagelist thread from Smash 4. This thread features a list of stages (5 in total) with each describing the general competitive situation of the stage. If you feel a stage should be moved from a list to another, please voice so.

Before all of this, it's important to consider the question of the stage hazard toggle. While a great number of stages can be gained, a handful drastically change or become too similar to other stages to reasonably use. Please read here for information of how each stage is affected. While I will not specifically decry the preference of one over the other, the following three are the general rules seen:

• Hazards left all on
• Hazards left all off
• Hazards left all on, but select stages are used as hazardless

The arguments tend to be, in terms of the first two, logistics and less potential issues of misconfiguration, while the last is more idealistic. However, it is important to note that rulesets, at least early on, have leaned towards the last two.

Notes:

• "Flat Stages" refers to Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, Dream Land GB, Hanenbow, Super Mario Maker, Mute City (SNES) and Pac-Land.
• Stages listed with (hazards) or (hazardless) are assumed to be referring to legality under that manner. If it is not specified, it is referring to both.
• Data for stages can be found here, from Munomario777 . Stages listed in this document are linked to within the spoilers, if available.

Common List
Stages that are widely legal, starter or counterpick on most tournament rulesets.

Spoiler

• Battlefield
  • Static and basic triplatform stage. Features symmetrical layout.
  • Does not differ across hazard settings.
• Final Destination
  • Static, flat stage. Features symmetrical layout and transforming visuals.
  • Does not differ across hazard settings.
• Smashville
  • Basic, flat shape with platform that moves left to right, and goes offstage. A balloon will occasionally travel across the screen, which can be hit and interacts with moves.
  • The hazardless version forces the platform to be stuck in the center, and no balloon spawns.
• Town and City
  • Basic, flat shape with two different sets of platform layouts; one layout have three platforms with the center one moving up and down, and the second layout having two platforms moving from the center to the sides of the stage. Inbetween these, the platforms move to the blastzones and create a completely flat stage. A balloon will occasionally travel across the screen, which can be hit and interacts with moves.
  • The hazardless version features frozen versions of both layouts, with the platforms not moving, and no balloon spawns.
• Pokemon Stadium 2 (hazardless)
  • Static stage with two small platforms on the left and right side of the stage. Features symmetrical layout.
• Yoshi's Island: Brawl
  • A curved, uneven terrain shape with a large center platform that will occasionally tilt. Features transforming visuals. On occasion, a platform will rise on the left or right side of the stage and can be grabbed, rising from the bottom blastzone. Shy Guys will frequently spawn in the center of the stage, which can be hit and interact with moves.
  • The hazardless version features no platform tilting, and the support platforms do not spawn.
• Kalos Pokemon League (hazardless)
  • A larger, mostly flat stage with two platforms that go slightly offstage. Features symmetrical layout.

Feasible List
Stages that are likely feasible for competitive play, but are not universally present on common rulesets.

Spoiler

• Battlefield and Omega stages (ignoring Flat Stages)
  • These stages are effectively Battlefield, and largely act the same as the original stages with aesthetic differences.
  • Flat stages are excluded from this list, as they flatten the Z-axis and change move behavior.
  • For stage data, please see Battlefield and Final Destination in the previous section.
• Unova Pokemon League (hazardless)
  • A larger, mostly flat stage with two platforms that stay onstage, similar to Pokemon Stadium 1 and 2. The sides of the stages are uneven walls.
• Pokemon Stadium 1
  • A transforming stage with a neutral layout of two platforms on the left and right side of the stage. There are 4 major transformations; one with a large left obstruction in the stage and multiple slanted platforms (Rock), an uneven terrain one with two platforms at the center (Grass), a transformation with two platforms on the side and a windmill with 4 platforms (Water), and one with a longer platform on the right side, and a tree-trunk shape with a side platform on the left side.
  • The hazardless version keeps the stage in it's neutral layout, making it largely similar to Pokemon Stadium 1, but there are slight differences in the overall size and position of the layout (namely the bottom blast zone and width of the stage).
• Brinstar (hazardless)
  • A three-platform style stage with two platforms that hang over the side of the stage (one is flat, and another is curved), and one that sits unevenly above the main stage. The overall terrain is not even.
• Warioware, Inc. (hazardless)
  • A four-platform style stage with two on each side (a longer platform closer to the stage, and a shorter one above that). The sides of the stage are walls.
• Frigate Orpheon (hazardless)
  • A single-platform styled stage, with the platform being on the left side of the stage up to the ledge. The right third of the stage can be passed from below and will occasionally move up and down, which can create a wall.
• Skyloft (hazardless)
  • A three-platform style stage, with one platform placed above the center of the stage and two longer, slanted platforms that are asymmetrical. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls.
• Halberd (hazardless)
  • A smaller stage with a platform close to the main stage. Features symmetrical layout and small transforming visuals. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls during the flying portion. The start of the stage features a 12 second walkoff.
• Castle Siege (hazardless)
  • A slanted, double tier layout with two platforms on each side of the stage with varying heights. The sides of the stage have uneven walls.
• Dream Land 64
  • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, which features a different underside shape. Occasionally, a wind-effect will be produced from the stage, aiming left or right, that can move fighters.
  • The hazardless version features no wind-effect, which makes it similar to Battlefield in basic shape.
• Mushroom Kingdom U (hazardless)
  • A large stage with 3 long platforms at different heights, two on the left side and one on the right. The sides of the stage are solid walls. Features grassy terrain.
• Lylat Cruise
  • A three-platform style layout with the platforms being close to the general stage. The stage will tilt occasionally at a small angle. Features transforming visuals.
  • The hazardless version features no tilting. There are still transforms with the visuals, but the selected visual is the same across transformations.
• Midgar (hazardless)
  • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, with a different styled underside. The platforms are differently sized compared to Battlefield, and the underside of the stage is not symmetrical.
• Wily Castle (hazardless)
  • A flat, box-styled stage similar to Final Destination with a different stage width (1.1x). The sides of the stage are solid walls. Features symmetrical layout.
• Green Greens (hazardless)
  • A multi-platform stage with two small, passable platforms across the main, larger stage.
• Wuhu Island (hazardless)
  • A long, single platform stage with slants near the ledge. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
• Reset Bomb Forest (hazardless)
  • A triplatform style stage with the platforms favoring the right side, and two smaller platforms. The sides of these main platforms are walls.
• Norfair (hazardless)
  • A multi-playform style stage with a small, main platform at the bottom, and 4 larger, passable platforms with ledges on the outside stacked above it on the left and right sides.
• Umbra Clock Tower (hazardless)
  • A flat stage with the exact width of final destination, but an asymmetrical layout beneath the main floor.
• Kongo Jungle (hazardless)
  • A slanted, semiflat stage with two slanted platforms above the left and right sides of the stage. There are two platforms in the middle of the stage as well. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
• Prism Tower
  • A transforming stage that starts on the ground with walkoffs, then slowly scales up the tower, sporting 6 layouts in total: an initial flat layout with a walkoff, a flat layout, a triple platform layout with two platforms over the side of the stage, a single platform above the main stage, two platforms over the side of the stage, and then the flat layout once more, before restarting. The transitions are the exact same each time through. The bottom platform of the stage can be passed through from below, leaving the stage with no walls. Features transforming visuals.
  • Does not differ across hazard settings.
• Pictochat 2 (hazardless)
  • A flat, box-styled stage similar to Final Destination with slopes at the ledge.
• New Donk City
  • A transforming stage that starts on the ground with walkoffs and a small platform, then adds in different layouts, including a two platform layout, single platform layout, and four platform layout with platforms going between the walls. Features transforming visuals. The layout differs between trips.
  • The hazardless version removes the musicians (albeit they normally do not affect gameplay).
• Delfino Plaza
  • A transforming stage that starts on a basic platform and randomly transitions through a variety of different layouts, including ones with large single spherical stages and water, triple hard platforms with water, multiple flat, multi-tiered stages with walkoffs, and a layout with multi-tiered platforms (with the outside being soft platforms). Features transforming visuals and water. The layout differs between trips.
  • Does not differ across hazard settings.

The next two stages in this list currently suffer from apparent issues that affect their viability, with exact issues italicized.

• Fountain of Dreams
  • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield with a larger side wall. The two side platforms will change position and sometimes fall beneath the stage.
  • The hazardless version features no platform movement, making it quite similar to Battlefield in basic shape.
  • The stage currently suffers from occasional framedrops on either settings due to the graphical intensity of the 2-4 player version of the stage. This is regardless of hazards on or off.
• Yoshi's Story
  • A triplatform style layout similar to Battlefield, which features a slant next to the ledges and solid walls on the side of the stage. A cloud platform will occasionally appear on the side of the stage, traveling back and forth in a rectangular pattern. In addition, Shy Guys spawn throughout the stage, which can be hit and interact with moves.
  • The hazardless version features no Shy Guys or cloud platform, which makes it similar to Battlefield in basic shape with slants near the ledges.
  • The hazards form of the stage currently suffers from an issue where Shy Guys will spawn with items regardless of the settings of them in the game's ruleset. The hazardless version does not have this issue.

Suspect List
Stages that are not likely suited for competitive play, regardless of hazards. These are due to general size, randomness in hazardless form, issues with stage geometry, etc.

Spoiler

• Any hazards version of a stage listed above that was not specified
• Hyrule Castle 64
• Saffron City
• Mushroom Kingdom
• Yoshi's Island (Melee)
• Temple
• Great Bay
• Onett
• Venom
• Bridge of Eldin
• Port Town Aero Dive
• Distant Planet
• Hanenbow
• Mario Bros.
• 75m
• Luigi's Mansion
• Shadow Moses Island
• Summit
• New Pork City
• Green Hill Zone
• 3D Land
• Golden Plains
• Paper Mario
• Gerudo Valley
• Spirit Train
• Dream Land GB
• Mute City SNES
• Mario Galaxy
• Tomodachi Life
• Find Mii
• Living Room
• Balloon Fight
• Tortimer Island
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Coliseum
• Flat Zone X
• Palutena's Temple
• Garden of Hope
• Wii Fit Studio
• Boxing Ring
• Gaur Plain
• Wrecking Crew
• Windy Hill Zone
• PAC-LAND
• Suzaku Castle
• Moray Towers
• Big Battlefield
• Peach's Castle 64
• Super Happy Tree
• Corneria
• Delfino Plaza
• Spear Pillar
• Pirate Ship
• Mario Circuit
• Arena Ferox
• Gamer
• Super Mario Maker
• Pilotwings
• Duck Hunt
• Magicant
• Great Plateau Tower
• Dracula's Castle
• Rainbow Cruise

Nintendo should make it so that you can turn stage hazards ON for certain stages

 

[Frihetsanka]

The point you made with Lylat is fair, but do you not agree that having all 3 of fd, kalos, and town unfairly slants the stage choices towards large, projectile favoring stages?

Not all projectile characters love these stages, and the meta isn't exactly dominated by projectile characters anyway. Does Snake even like FD?

 

[Lore]

I'd argue that if FD can be considered "large" because it benefits projectile users, then Lylat can probably be considered "small", since, from my understanding, the platform layout and slants tend to be bad for projectile users.

More than fair, imo. In that case we may have a surprisingly more balanced list than expected.

What are your thoughts on taking FD out of Starter, replacing with YI Brawl? Or the same swap but with Kalos instead of FD?

 

[earthboundspacefree]

Not all projectile characters love these stages, and the meta isn't exactly dominated by projectile characters anyway. Does Snake even like FD?

Snake is kinda an exception in terms of projectile characters - I don’t like going there if the opponent has a strong projectile as well, plus battlefield works well for him. It’s not just the being good for projectile users, it’s also the being poor for characters who struggle speed wise or struggle with projectiles

As far as the meta not being dominated by them, you have wolf, pichu, olimar, megaman, greninja, the links, ness - all with strong projectiles and all in top 20 in terms of results. How would a character like DK handle them on those big stages?

 

[Akiak]

If you're gonna have FD, KPL, TNC & PS2, you need one of CS/WW if you value balance above all else.

(in order from most to least advantageous)
"Campy" stages: FD, KPL, TNC, PS2
"Anti-campy" (cramped? crampy?) stages: CS/WW, YS, YIB, SV/LC

So if you get 2 bans, campy char is guaranteed TNC, close-range char is guaranteed YIB. I feel like that's pretty equal.

If you don't have CS/WW, YS & YIB are getting banned every time and all you get is SV or LC as anti-campy stages (which isn't very much at all imo, at least not comparable to TNC/PS2) (side note: i was in the Young link discord and a few of them seemed to prefer PS2 to FD purely for camping reasons)

If you really think CS & WW are "too jank" to have legal, and their 'jankness' overrides your balancing concerns, then ok i guess.

But please ask yourself if you're being fair and objective and you don't just happen to dislike the stage because of the chars you play.

Personally I think the concerns with something like WW are a bit overblown. Like sure with some matchups it's kind of awful but what about playing vs. Olimar or Yink on FD with no projectiles?

Not to mention you have 2 bans, so you're never going to be forced to go there.

Idk, I just don't get the WW hate, I think it's biased, and I think it's a really cool stage.

extra side note: in the Yoshi discord, the general consensus seemed to be that "SV is awful vs. zoners", take that as you will

 

[earthboundspacefree]

If you're gonna have FD, KPL, TNC & PS2, you need one of CS/WW if you value balance above all else.

(in order from most to least advantageous)
"Campy" stages: FD, KPL, TNC, PS2
"Anti-campy" (cramped? crampy?) stages: CS/WW, YS, YIB, SV/LC

So if you get 2 bans, campy char is guaranteed TNC, close-range char is guaranteed YIB. I feel like that's pretty equal.

If you don't have CS/WW, YS & YIB are getting banned every time and all you get is SV or LC as anti-campy stages (which isn't very much at all imo, at least not comparable to TNC/PS2) (side note: i was in the Young link discord and a few of them seemed to prefer PS2 to FD purely for camping reasons)

If you really think CS & WW are "too jank" to have legal, and their 'jankness' overrides your balancing concerns, then ok i guess.

But please ask yourself if you're being fair and objective and you don't just happen to dislike the stage because of the chars you play.

Personally I think the concerns with something like WW are a bit overblown. Like sure with some matchups it's kind of awful but what about playing vs. Olimar or Yink on FD with no projectiles?

Not to mention you have 2 bans, so you're never going to be forced to go there.

Idk, I just don't get the WW hate, I think it's biased, and I think it's a really cool stage.

extra side note: in the Yoshi discord, the general consensus seemed to be that "SV is awful vs. zoners", take that as you will

I think we really need 3 bans. If we make no stage changes, 3 bans needs to happen