Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[ParanoidDrone]

I'm a casual lurking this thread to see what stages the meta eventually settles on, but I wanna comment that I hated that World of Light and some Spirit fights locked away the option to only play on certain portions of transforming / traveling stages to them, and we couldn't play on those stages that way ourselves.

Yeah, there are a *lot* of "sub-stages" that I think would be perfectly serviceable on their own, but they all have some sort of strings attached.

 

[Jotun873]

I understand most of these picks but what exactly is wrong with unova? It doesnt seem that bad to use as a counterpick on hazardless. Only thing i can think of is people being upset with the low ceiling....

Ive been picking it alot in friendly matches on a discord server recently and no one has any major complaints from what i have experienced

 

[IsmaR]

The large issue for Unova is the (under)sides not being symmetrical, the edge on the left can interfere with characters that have sensitive "teleport" type recoveries.

To a much lesser extent, I also hear a lot of people say they dislike the lighting getting kind of distracting (ala Smash 4 FD)

As for why it's counterpick, many feel that the layout is too similar to PS2 and creates the same "ban BF, counterpick Dreamland 64 anyway" issue.

 

[Shieldlesscap]

The large issue for Unova is the (under)sides not being symmetrical, the edge on the left can interfere with characters that have sensitive "teleport" type recoveries.

To a much lesser extent, I also hear a lot of people say they dislike the lighting getting kind of distracting (ala Smash 4 FD)

As for why it's counterpick, many feel that the layout is too similar to PS2 and creates the same "ban BF, counterpick Dreamland 64 anyway" issue.

Thing is, isn't PS2 way bigger than Unova? Being a diplat from the same franchise makes it seem similar, but it's a lot smaller and the platforms are closer to the ledges compared to PS2.

 

[Cracke]

A semi-competitive person here but I honestly think we should let more stages be legal, so long as it isn't completely cancerous and doesn't let one character take advantage completely.

 

[IsmaR]

Thing is, isn't PS2 way bigger than Unova? Being a diplat from the same franchise makes it seem similar, but it's a lot smaller and the platforms are closer to the ledges compared to PS2.

Correct, but some disagree with there even being 2 Pokemon stages (I see Kalos on a lot of people's chopping blocks) period.

There's no right opinion on it. It's similar to the preference/bias many have against stages like Dreamland 64 (falsely comparing it to Midgar in terms of being a carbon copy of BF/saying the platform height/blast zones make no significant differenc/saying it's more likely to get pineapple'd/etc.) or the FD clones (I still hold that hazardless Wily Castle's walls have impacted almost as many matches for me as Yoshi's Story/Kalos League, but I understand why we don't need more FDs).

Some still lump Yoshi's Island Brawl with Smashville, or Kalos League with Town and City's wide platform layout, but that's another discussion entirely.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

A large number of stages being from the Pokemon series is amusing, but shouldn't be a serious argument for legality one way or another. (Not to mention the music is much more energetic than, say, The Roost.)

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, you could probably make the case that PS2 and Unova could coexist since one is the largest and the other is the smallest of the basic dual-plat layout. (PS1 is vaguely in the middle.) I refer to Melee for an active example of how four stages with the same basic layout (Battlefield, Dream Land, Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams) can coexist with minimal issues.

Kalos's platforms are distinct enough since they hang over the edge that I don't think it should factor into it at all.

 

[Lore]

A semi-competitive person here but I honestly think we should let more stages be legal, so long as it isn't completely cancerous and doesn't let one character take advantage completely.

Here's a decent counter argument. Nice MF Doom icon, by the way.

Let's take a hypothetical situation. You have 4 stages in the game. Every character is advantaged on 1 stage, neutral on 2, and disadvantaged on 1. This situation allows for perfect stage striking, where a player can choose to strike a disadvantaged stage with no issues.

Now add a stage that your main is disadvantaged against, to now have 1 advantage stage, 2 neutral, and now 2 you are bad at. You can still stage strike, but you may still end up on a bad stage for you. This is closer to the current state of the game.

Now, let's add 5 unbalanced stages. For this assumption, let's say that 3 of those stages are bad for your main. With 5 disadvantaged stages, you very well could end up playing a bad stage with zero control of the outcome. Stage striking has now become a useless tool for you.

This is part of why stage lists have to be a bit more selective. It's a tricky balance.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Here's a decent counter argument. Nice MF Doom icon, by the way.

Let's take a hypothetical situation. You have 4 stages in the game. Every character is advantaged on 1 stage, neutral on 2, and disadvantaged on 1. This situation allows for perfect stage striking, where a player can choose to strike a disadvantaged stage with no issues.

Now add a stage that your main is disadvantaged against, to now have 1 advantage stage, 2 neutral, and now 2 you are bad at. You can still stage strike, but you may still end up on a bad stage for you. This is closer to the current state of the game.

Now, let's add 5 unbalanced stages. For this assumption, let's say that 3 of those stages are bad for your main. With 5 disadvantaged stages, you very well could end up playing a bad stage with zero control of the outcome. Stage striking has now become a useless tool for you.

This is part of why stage lists have to be a bit more selective. It's a tricky balance.

Counterargument: It is not the job of us, the players, to attempt fine-tuned balance via ruleset. We tried this in Brawl by banning several stages (IIRC, including Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, maybe others, it's been a while) in order to curb Meta Knight. It didn't work, and it turned out the remaining legal stages all greatly favored the Ice Climbers to boot.

 

[Lore]

Counterargument: It is not the job of us, the players, to attempt fine-tuned balance via ruleset. We tried this in Brawl by banning several stages (IIRC, including Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, maybe others, it's been a while) in order to curb Meta Knight. It didn't work, and it turned out the remaining legal stages all greatly favored the Ice Climbers to boot.

It's almost as if Meta Knight needed the ban instead of the stages, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

I'm also firmly in the camp of thinking that Brawl was a bad game, and I admit my bias here.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It's almost as if Meta Knight needed the ban instead of the stages, but that's a different argument for a different thread.

I'm also firmly in the camp of thinking that Brawl was a bad game, and I admit my bias here.

Yeah, the MK ban is a separate subject, but I don't think anyone expected the ICs to rise the way they did as part of that whole debacle. I would go so far as to posit that with a 70+ character roster, it's functionally impossible to accurately predict whether banning or allowing a given stage will result in greater or lesser balance overall. There's no substitute for empirical data.

 

[Lore]

Yeah, the MK ban is a separate subject, but I don't think anyone expected the ICs to rise the way they did as part of that whole debacle. I would go so far as to posit that with a 70+ character roster, it's functionally impossible to accurately predict whether banning or allowing a given stage will result in greater or lesser balance overall. There's no substitute for empirical data.

Right, but you can certainly control for outlier stages. There are many stages where a glance lets you see that a projectile zoning character would have a huge advantage, and vice versa.

 

[ATH_]

The current most relevant variables to be considered in terms of character advantage or disadvantage in relation to stages are:

• Stage Size
• Platform Layout (not count)
• Blast Zones

We cannot be selective about our stages in regards to making a list that is "perfectly" balanced across all fighters. However, we can balance our lists to take into account the most relevant differences and make a list that suits the needs across the cast. Key word: Needs. What do different playstyles and characters need?

Stages that are big and small, varying platform layouts, and varying blast zones. By having a balance across the list, we can make a list that, in general, is balanced enough.

Now, looking at the most viable stages, we can see divisions. We are very capable of having a balance between the three (Size, Layout, Zones).
For our starters:

• Battlefield (Average size/zones, triangle triplat)
• Kalos Pokemon League (Walled, Average size/zones, distanced biplat)
• Pokemon Stadium 1/2 (Large size, slightly low cieling/slightly further walls, close biplat)
• Smashville (Below-Average size, slightly smaller walls, long monoplat)
• Lylat Cruise (Average size/zones, slopes, aligned triplat)

We see 3 stages of average size, 1 of large size, and 1 of below-average size. As well, most blast zones here are only different by a matter of 12 units or less, but the subtle differences are fitting for starters. The platform layouts are varied, with no stage having the same layout. The distanced biplats of Kalos are an aid in combos and recovery options, but otherwise have it play out as a Walled FD (I made a post about this previously why I believe Kalos should replace FD that goes into absurd detail). While the close biplats of PS1/2 aid in rushing down opponents who try to take advantage of the wide stage, as well as aid in landing options. The difference in adding the top plat on Battlefield allows for extended upward combos, landing options, and generally makes it more difficult for camping to occur. Meanwhile, the center plat of Lylat acts as a subtle way to boost rushdown playstyles, while simultaneously giving projectile users an easier time because it's lined up with the other platforms, unlike Battlefield.

Before anyone asks, yes, you could replace Kalos with FD and that would work just fine. FD has a slightly lower ceiling than BF and provides another average size stage.

Building off of that, we can make a list that adds stages in chunks that keep the balance. Admittedly, some stages are difficult to classify (Frigate, T&C, any transforming stage) but we can still apply some logic to them and get a balanced list.

For instance, you could add these 4 as a chunk: Final Destination, Yoshi's Story, Unova Pokemon League, Yoshi's Island. This adds two small stages, an average variant of an existing starter, and FD which despite its technical average-size, many would argue that its lack of platforms makes it have all of the benefits a typical large stage has.

Adding more stage beyond this point is where we can really fine-tune how we want our lists to feel. For me, personally, I try my best to promote all kinds of playstyles and give as much variance for games 2 and 3. I personally use WarioWare, Castle Siege, Frigate Orpheon, and Town & City. But stages like Skyloft, Halberd, and Mushroom Kingdom U can be used as well as others. I'm on the side that the so-called "Average size" of 160 units is just a tad bit big, which means that with so many average-size stages we need more small stages to balance that and bring more playstyles into light.

That's how I believe the issue can be solved.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Data collected at Genesis 6

https://twitter.com/Jaaahsh/status/1092821153348026369?s=19

Apparently Castle Siege was banned a whopping 51.2% of the time.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

What's more scary is that PS2 was played in 66% of the sets when looking at game 1 and game 2 numbers (333 sets where it was mutually agreed, 292 where it was striked 2, 133 games where it was played game 2 for a total of 758/1,141 sets). I didn't include game 3 numbers because frankly so few were recorded that they weren't really relevant.

 

[Mooer]

After the data we got, can we say forget Castle Siege?
I'd think Wario Ware would be a much better stage in its place

EDIT: in fact, I'd say the following list would be ideal
Mooer's Competitve Stagelist
With 5 starters and 4 counterpicks - things are tight and competitive

 

[ParanoidDrone]

After the data we got, can we say forget Castle Siege?
I'd think Wario Ware would be a much better stage in its place

EDIT: in fact, I'd say the following list would be ideal
Mooer's Competitve Stagelist
With 5 starters and 4 counterpicks - things are tight and competitive

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Popularity should not be a factor in stage legality. It's not a popularity contest.

There are several other salient features of Castle Siege that can be discussed as regards their impact on a match: the size, the asymmetricality, the vision-obscuring wall. A debate on the stage's legality is more than possible on those terms. (I'm firmly on the side of legality, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone familiar with my posts here, but I digress.) But, again, whether or not the stage is popular shouldn't be relevant.

 

[ATH_]

To add to ParanoidDrone 's statement here, the masses are easily influenced here by other popular commentators, TOs, and players who advocate against siege. We've seen over and over people mention the same issues with the stage without discussing whether or not those issues are A) Ban-worthy and B) Important at all. You can talk for hours and hours about the small obscure interactions that the foreground wall obscures but if you don't discuss whether or not that actually matters in the end then you're purely talking for fluff with no substance.

Some people, some very notable people, are even going as far as simply calling it "trash" over and over on mic and not giving new players and less-aware veterans the chance to give the stage a fair shot and view.

I would love it if even one, even one top player gave the stage a long video review going over the little details of what makes the stage good and what the stage suffers from. Just one objective analysis for the majority of players who are less-aware to see and learn from.

Also, Lylat's been legal for forever when it still tilted, but even without the tilting it's still a stage that is rarely picked because of its reputation. We keep it around though, yeah? Why can't the same logic apply to Castle Siege?

Side opinion: People are desperate for stages when there's very little. Wanting Castle Siege in Brawl and Smash 4 when it would transform and had walk-offs. But now that there's a lot of stages, they want us to be extra picky, and they want a large stage list to be a thing because "there's so many viable stages in this game". We can't have both. Nobody can have both.

EDIT: I love D1 and TKbreezy just as much as the next gal but I really feel like they made a really negative impact on something really important, intentionally or not. I don't hate them and I'm not trying to put them in a bad light, it's their actions here that are more problematic, not the person.

 

[Mooer]

I've said it once and I'll say it again: Popularity should not be a factor in stage legality. It's not a popularity contest.

There are several other salient features of Castle Siege that can be discussed as regards their impact on a match: the size, the asymmetricality, the vision-obscuring wall. A debate on the stage's legality is more than possible on those terms. (I'm firmly on the side of legality, which shouldn't be a surprise to anyone familiar with my posts here, but I digress.) But, again, whether or not the stage is popular shouldn't be relevant.

Very good point. I suppose I'm already strongly against it due to that vision-obscuring wall. I don't like it as a player OR as a spectator. So I was admittedly quickly persuaded by the non-popularity. For the record, I'm actually in favor of the asymmetry and stage size, so perhaps I could be convinced of its legality.

That said, I don't think we can disregard popularity entirely. For example, if stage striking for Castle Siege increases beyond a reasonable rate then it's essentially a wasted stage slot (for now the striking rate isn't alarming). The opinions and satisfaction of the players matter, the TOs aren't the gatekeepers of smash. I also think, we can benefit from replacing Castle Siege with Wario Ware to great effect. It isn't asymmetrical, but it is small and a wonderfully unique platform layout. Ideally we would see less strikes on WW and better player satisfaction, but only more data could reveal that.

 

[Tesh]

Rulesets are a popularity contest though. The format we compete in is completely subjective and at the whim of the community. There are plenty of things we could be competitively doing in this game or outside the game that we don't do simply because we don't want to.

You can logic it out as much as you want, but if most people don't want to play the game a certain way, why should they?

Unfortunately people are swayed very easily by whoever they are a fan of. But that is the way of the world.

 

[ATH_]

Very good point. I suppose I'm already strongly against it due to that vision-obscuring wall. I don't like it as a player OR as a spectator. So I was admittedly quickly persuaded by the non-popularity. For the record, I'm actually in favor of the asymmetry and stage size, so perhaps I could be convinced of its legality.

That said, I don't think we can disregard popularity entirely. For example, if stage striking for Castle Siege increases beyond a reasonable rate then it's essentially a wasted stage slot (for now the striking rate isn't alarming). The opinions and satisfaction of the players matter, the TOs aren't the gatekeepers of smash. I also think, we can benefit from replacing Castle Siege with Wario Ware to great effect. It isn't asymmetrical, but it is small and a wonderfully unique platform layout. Ideally we would see less strikes on WW and better player satisfaction, but only more data could reveal that.

Why not both? They're very different from one another both in character advantage/disadvantage and layout.

Rulesets are a popularity contest though. The format we compete in is completely subjective and at the whim of the community. There are plenty of things we could be competitively doing in this game or outside the game that we don't do simply because we don't want to.

You can logic it out as much as you want, but if most people don't want to play the game a certain way, why should they?

Unfortunately people are swayed very easily by whoever they are a fan of. But that is the way of the world.

You have a point that the community should be listened to, of course. However, the issue I find here is that a lot of these people are speaking on purely subjective banter with no actual facts or reason. The reason being that the people perpetuating "Castle Siege is trash" aren't saying much more than that. They aren't teaching the reasons why, or giving their thoughts and talking about stage data.

In my opinion, and I admit this is a tad harsh, the only subjective matter we should be looking at are informed opinions. People who have read up on the stages, not just Castle Siege, and have an understanding of both what hurts and helps it here. People shouting that a stage is bad with no rhyme or reason might as well be shouting Battlefield is trash. The difference is people are used to Battlefield, and would question it immediately, while with Siege they aren't familiar and therefore are inclined to agree because the person talking seems knowledgeable.

 

[Tesh]

You can't stop ignorant people from having a say though because the people with influence aren't looked up to for being knowledgeable or logical. All you can do is try to inform as many people as possible. Arguing theory is fun, but if you care, you should put your efforts into testing and putting out information about how stages function so less people make decisions in ignorance.

 

[Munomario777]

being objective is important, but unpopular stages have an objectively bad consequence. if a stage is unpopular to the point where most people will ban it, then it's a wasted ban, which is a problem. it also introduces striking mindgames / gambles, like what happened with lylat in smash 4

popularity shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it's not like it doesn't have an objective impact which should sometimes be a deciding factor for legality

 

[Mooer]

Why not both? They're very different from one another both in character advantage/disadvantage and layout.

Well, sure! why not? It's best to learn from practice. We'll determine issues as data accumulates. I just think we shouldn't increase the stagelist unnecessarily - reason is that it becomes harder to balance. For an exaggerated example: if a character performs horribly on Final Destination and we include 3+ stages that are all very similar to it then they can't possibly stagestrike effectively. Imo we need a list that retains the benefit of striking and counterpicking.

 

[ATH_]

You can't stop ignorant people from having a say though because the people with influence aren't looked up to for being knowledgeable or logical. All you can do is try to inform as many people as possible. Arguing theory is fun, but if you care, you should put your efforts into testing and putting out information about how stages function so less people make decisions in ignorance.

I agree! The best way to handle the situation here is to inform others, and personally I think the best way to do that is to host tournaments using Castle Siege and offering an explanation as to why. Deliberating here really isn't going to net anything when the issue is people who are uninformed and not reading the discussion.

being objective is important, but unpopular stages have an objectively bad consequence. if a stage is unpopular to the point where most people will ban it, then it's a wasted ban, which is a problem. it also introduces striking mindgames / gambles, like what happened with lylat in smash 4

popularity shouldn't be the end-all-be-all, but it's not like it doesn't have an objective impact which should sometimes be a deciding factor for legality

Of course, if everyone hated Battlefield (say over 90% of players) then I'd say there'd be no reason to keep it. The player base is what we create stage lists for, we can't ignore them by any means. What I believe is that TOs need to come forward and inform their players for big events, that would lead to a much more productive discussion with the players, and not just other TOs.

 

[ShneeOscar]

Xanadu's new stage list: https://twitter.com/TheRoflfox/status/1092568764879683585

Yoshi's Story and Yoshi's Island Brawl have been removed.

 

[Untouch]

What in god's name is wrong with either of those stages?
Why would they get rid of those stages but have Unova?

 

[Tesh]

Slopes I guess

 

[ShneeOscar]

But Lylat's still in.

 

[Untouch]

Unova is 92% of the size of PS1.
Yoshi's Island is 92% of the size of Smashville.

If you were to ask me, PS1 should be replaced with Unova.
Both PS2 and PS1 are gigantic stages.

 

[ATH_]

Hmm, maybe I don't understand just how many moves are affected by ledge-slopes here, but can someone explain why moves reaching beneath the ledge because of slopes is a bad thing?

It's not every move or most characters, yeah? It's a proper character advantage for a stage. Some characters have moves that hit beneath the ledge. On YI and YS there's more characters who can hit beneath the ledge. I fail to see why this is such a terrible thing. Just seems like a quirk of the stage that makes it unique.

As for their removal of Skyloft/WarioWare: Gosh we need character-first so badly.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Hmm, maybe I don't understand just how many moves are affected by ledge-slopes here, but can someone explain why moves reaching beneath the ledge because of slopes is a bad thing?

It's not every move or most characters, yeah? It's a proper character advantage for a stage. Some characters have moves that hit beneath the ledge. On YI and YS there's more characters who can hit beneath the ledge. I fail to see why this is such a terrible thing. Just seems like a quirk of the stage that makes it unique.

As for their removal of Skyloft/WarioWare: Gosh we need character-first so badly.

If you look at the tweet they said they removed YI brawl because it was too much like SV. It's as though they completly ignore the slopes and the walls on the stage. It really sucks to see such a limited stage list when there's so many stages to choose from. Not having a real legitimate counter pick is pretty whack. I wonder why a lot of stages aren't legal. I still don't understand why duck hunt isn't legal. This stage list is dumb AF.

 

[ATH_]

If you look at the tweet they said they removed YI brawl because it was too much like SV. It's as though they completly ignore the slopes and the walls on the stage. It really sucks to see such a limited stage list when there's so many stages to choose from. Not having a real legitimate counter pick is pretty whack. I wonder why a lot of stages aren't legal. I still don't understand why duck hunt isn't legal. This stage list is dumb AF.

This directly contradicts the Genesis 6 data they're citing here.

Here's the tweet, and here's the contradiction. As well, the pick rates for SV/YI are so drastically different looking at the Genesis 6 doc. I'd assume this is because players would ban YI/Siege against any character who thrives on the smaller stage, then they would go to Smashville. But overall, we shouldn't see that big of a difference if the stages are so similar. People just view Yoshi's Island as "worse smashville", despite data saying it's quite different and there isn't a strong overlap.

EDIT: There being a contradiction doesn't mean they're "objectively wrong" here or anything. However, I do believe that it's odd to cite Genesis 6 data and then completely ignore a major part of it.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

This directly contradicts the Genesis 6 data they're citing here.

Here's the tweet, and here's the contradiction. As well, the pick rates for SV/YI are so drastically different looking at the Genesis 6 doc. I'd assume this is because players would ban YI/Siege against any character who thrives on the smaller stage, then they would go to Smashville. But overall, we shouldn't see that big of a difference if the stages are so similar. People just view Yoshi's Island as "worse smashville", despite data saying it's quite different and there isn't a strong overlap.

EDIT: There being a contradiction doesn't mean they're "objectively wrong" here or anything. However, I do believe that it's odd to cite Genesis 6 data and then completely ignore a major part of it.

Yeah it'd be nice to get an explanation but they dont give one even when asked about it.

 

[Thinkaman]

Thinkaman's Anti-Casual No Weenies Allowed Stagelist

This list is for people who want to find out who is the best at actual Smash Bros, not Smashville.

1. Battlefield (any)
2. Final Destination (any)
3. Peach's Castle
4. Dream Land 64
5. Rainbow Cruise
6. Jungle Japes
7. Brinstar
8. Yoshi's Story
9. Fountain of Dreams
10. Green Greens
11. Corneria
12. Pokemon Stadium
13. Delfino Plaza
14. Wario Ware (Hazards Off only)
15. Norfair aka the best stage
16. Frigate Orpheon
17. Yoshi's Island
18. Halberd
19. Lylat Cruise
20. Pokemon Stadium 2
21. Port Town Aero Dive
22. Smashville
23. Skyworld
24. 3D Land
25. Unova Pokemon League
26. Prisma Tower
27. Arena Ferox
28. Mushroom Kingdom U
29. Mario Circuit
30. Skyloft
31. Kalos Pokemon League
32. Gamer
33. Town & City
34. Duck Hunt
35. Wuhu Island
36. Wily Castle
37. Midgar
38. Umbra Clock Tower
39. New Donk City Hall
40. Great Plateau Tower

Players RPS or flip a coin to see who picks first. Picks alternate until last game.

Players can pick any legal stage, Hazards On or Off. No character bans, no stage bans, no cowards, no johns. Players are expected to be a grown *** adult and play your opponent's favorite character on their favorite stage while waiting your turn to do the same.

The person who doesn't pick the stage should be invited to select the music, as a token of gentlemanly manners. More importantly, they get to pick character second.

You cannot repick a stage that has been played before, hazards or not. Seriously, you have over 70 stages, come on.

If the set goes to a final game 3/5/7/99, last game is double-blind characters on a random Battlefield. Deal with it. (Fine, ban the 2D ones)


In Teams (or Singles where a superior Potter Stewart anti-stall ruling is used, such that running away doesn't work), the following large/"campable" stages can be added:

1. Kongo Jungle
2. Saffron City
3. Kongo Falls
4. Yoshi's Island (Melee)
5. Distant Planet
6. Luigi's Mansion
7. Pirate Ship
8. Tortimer Island
9. Garden of Hope
10. Windy Hill Zone
11. Suzaku Castle
12. Dracula's Castle

COMPETE. ADAPT.

Spoiler: Why Stuff Is Banned

Stages are only banned if they enable indefinite stalling by either player while precluding --in which case, we have no choice. This usually requires a hard loop (physical barrier), a soft loop (enough space and platforms to act as one), dual permanent walk-offs, twin corners, or a mix.

Hard Loops:

• Temple
• Great Bay
• New Pork City
• Summit
• Spear Pillar
• Mario Bros.
• Magicant
• Balloon Fight
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Palutena's Temple

Soft Loops--massive size and enough platform space to effect a loop in many matchups:

• Hyrule Castle
• Super Happy Tree
• Brinstar Depths
• 75m
• Hanenbow
• Reset Bomb Forest
• Tomodachi Life
• Gaur Plain
• Wrecking Crew
• Moray Towers
• Super Mario Maker (potentially)

Permanent Walkoffs. These remove the entire offstage, ledgeguarding, and ledgetrapping game. This is sort of like how FD removes the entire platform game, but also invites a special form of stalling. Even if this stalling is easy to discern and judge against, the issue of removing a huge fraction of the game remains.

• Mushroom Kingdom
• Onett
• Mushroom Kingdom II
• Mushroomy Kingdom
• Figure-8 Circuit
• Bridge of Eldin
• Shadow Moses Island
• Green Hill Zone
• Golden Plains
• Gerudo Valley
• Dream Land GB
• Living Room
• Mario Galaxy
• Coliseum
• Flat Zone X
• Wii Fit Studio
• Boxing Ring
• PAC-LAND
• Super Mario Maker (potentially)

"Twin Corners"--a particular set of back-to-back corners that encourages retreating to the other corner if forced out, while precluding any form of safe middle-ground that could be used to discern stalling:

• 
  [*=41]Princess Peach's Castle
• Venom
• Fourside
• Pilotwings (both!)

These stages tend to have some weird combination of the above, mixed with randomness and lethal hazards.

• Big Blue
• Paper Mario
• Spirit Train
• Mute City SNES
• PictoChat 2
• Find Mii

We also ban Hazards On specifically for Wario Ware strictly because the randomness of the microgames (which, when) occurs with insufficient warning, and the random rewards are extremely variable. (Note that this is also why items cannot be used.)

Contrast with even the most chaotic of other stages--Halberd, Norfair, Kalos, or even Port Town Aero Dive--which all offer several hundred frames of warning for the thing you are supposed to throw your opponent into.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Thinkaman's Anti-Casual No Weenies Allowed Stagelist

This list is for people who want to find out who is the best at actual Smash Bros, not Smashville.

1. Battlefield (any)
2. Final Destination (any)
3. Peach's Castle
4. Dream Land 64
5. Rainbow Cruise
6. Jungle Japes
7. Brinstar
8. Yoshi's Story
9. Fountain of Dreams
10. Green Greens
11. Corneria
12. Pokemon Stadium
13. Delfino Plaza
14. Wario Ware (Hazards Off only)
15. Norfair aka the best stage
16. Frigate Orpheon
17. Yoshi's Island
18. Halberd
19. Lylat Cruise
20. Pokemon Stadium 2
21. Port Town Aero Dive
22. Smashville
23. Skyworld
24. 3D Land
25. Unova Pokemon League
26. Prisma Tower
27. Arena Ferox
28. Mushroom Kingdom U
29. Mario Circuit
30. Skyloft
31. Kalos Pokemon League
32. Gamer
33. Town & City
34. Duck Hunt
35. Wuhu Island
36. Wily Castle
37. Midgar
38. Umbra Clock Tower
39. New Donk City Hall
40. Great Plateau Tower

Players RPS or flip a coin to see who picks first. Picks alternate until last game.

Players can pick any legal stage, Hazards On or Off. No character bans, no stage bans, no cowards, no johns. Players are expected to be a grown *** adult and play your opponent's favorite character on their favorite stage while waiting your turn to do the same.

The person who doesn't pick the stage should be invited to select the music, as a token of gentlemanly manners. More importantly, they get to pick character second.

You cannot repick a stage that has been played before, hazards or not. Seriously, you have over 70 stages, come on.

If the set goes to a final game 3/5/7/99, last game is double-blind characters on a random Battlefield. Deal with it. (Fine, ban the 2D ones)


In Teams (or Singles where a superior Potter Stewart anti-stall ruling is used, such that running away doesn't work), the following large/"campable" stages can be added:

1. Kongo Jungle
2. Saffron City
3. Kongo Falls
4. Yoshi's Island (Melee)
5. Distant Planet
6. Luigi's Mansion
7. Pirate Ship
8. Tortimer Island
9. Garden of Hope
10. Windy Hill Zone
11. Suzaku Castle
12. Dracula's Castle

COMPETE. ADAPT.

Spoiler: Why Stuff Is Banned

Stages are only banned if they enable indefinite stalling by either player while precluding --in which case, we have no choice. This usually requires a hard loop (physical barrier), a soft loop (enough space and platforms to act as one), dual permanent walk-offs, twin corners, or a mix.

Hard Loops:

• Temple
• Great Bay
• New Pork City
• Summit
• Spear Pillar
• Mario Bros.
• Magicant
• Balloon Fight
• The Great Cave Offensive
• Palutena's Temple

Soft Loops--massive size and enough platform space to effect a loop in many matchups:

• Hyrule Castle
• Super Happy Tree
• Brinstar Depths
• 75m
• Hanenbow
• Reset Bomb Forest
• Tomodachi Life
• Gaur Plain
• Wrecking Crew
• Moray Towers
• Super Mario Maker (potentially)

Permanent Walkoffs. These remove the entire offstage, ledgeguarding, and ledgetrapping game. This is sort of like how FD removes the entire platform game, but also invites a special form of stalling. Even if this stalling is easy to discern and judge against, the issue of removing a huge fraction of the game remains.

• Mushroom Kingdom
• Onett
• Mushroom Kingdom II
• Mushroomy Kingdom
• Figure-8 Circuit
• Bridge of Eldin
• Shadow Moses Island
• Green Hill Zone
• Golden Plains
• Gerudo Valley
• Dream Land GB
• Living Room
• Mario Galaxy
• Coliseum
• Flat Zone X
• Wii Fit Studio
• Boxing Ring
• PAC-LAND
• Super Mario Maker (potentially)

"Twin Corners"--a particular set of back-to-back corners that encourages retreating to the other corner if forced out, while precluding any form of safe middle-ground that could be used to discern stalling:

• 
  [*=41]Princess Peach's Castle
• Venom
• Fourside
• Pilotwings (both!)

These stages tend to have some weird combination of the above, mixed with randomness and lethal hazards.

• Big Blue
• Paper Mario
• Spirit Train
• Mute City SNES
• PictoChat 2
• Find Mii

We also ban Hazards On specifically for Wario Ware strictly because the randomness of the microgames (which, when) occurs with insufficient warning, and the random rewards are extremely variable. (Note that this is also why items cannot be used.)

Contrast with even the most chaotic of other stages--Halberd, Norfair, Kalos, or even Port Town Aero Dive--which all offer several hundred frames of warning for the thing you are supposed to throw your opponent into.

NGL, I can't actually tell if this is satire or not. I still remember your old riff on Swift's Modest Proposal several years ago.

(I blame work, my brain's a bit mushy right now.)

 

[ATH_]

Thinkaman's Anti-Casual No Weenies Allowed Stagelist

This list is for people who want to find out who is the best at actual Smash Bros, not Smashville.
[/SPOILER]

Oh my gosh this is completely hysterical! This is so well organized it almost looks like a real thing I'd have seen back in high school. Jeez.

"Players are expected to be a grown *** adult and play your opponent's favorite character on their favorite stage while waiting your turn to do the same." made me lose it aslkdhalkfha

 

[Munomario777]

Players are expected to be a grown *** adult and play your opponent's favorite character on their favorite stage while waiting your turn to do the same. (this includes YOU Kyle)

 

[Thinkaman]

To be clear, this is 100% seriously what I think should be legal.

All of those Melee and Brawl stages were legal back in the day, and it was great.

The best single bracket set I played in any Smash game was a Brawl loser's set against Bwett's Yoshi at NOKOAST 1 that ended in a brutal slugfest on Norfair. We both knew the stage inside and out, and it ended with him doing a brilliant kamakazi fair where I died first.

My favorite stage to strike to in 2008 was Castle Siege. God, what a fantastic stage, so dynamic and rich.

I have great memories of people taking me to Mute City, Cruise, Japes, Mansion, Delfino. Figuring them out, having to overcome the maximum limit of the player's creativity and practice on the fly.

Competition used to be about ADAPTING, about fighting your opponent at their BEST. No johns. Don't like a character, don't like the stage? Learn it, try winning.

 

[ATH_]

To be clear, this is 100% seriously what I think should be legal.

All of those Melee and Brawl stages were legal back in the day, and it was great.

The best single bracket set I played in any Smash game was a Brawl loser's set against Bwett's Yoshi at NOKOAST 1 that ended in a brutal slugfest on Norfair. We both knew the stage inside and out, and it ended with him doing a brilliant kamakazi fair where I died first.

My favorite stage to strike to in 2008 was Castle Siege. God, what a fantastic stage, so dynamic and rich.

I have great memories of people taking me to Mute City, Cruise, Japes, Mansion, Delfino. Figuring them out, having to overcome the maximum limit of the player's creativity and practice on the fly.

Competition used to be about ADAPTING, about fighting your opponent at their BEST. No johns. Don't like a character, don't like the stage? Learn it, try winning.

Well, now I feel bad. Honestly, this is very admirable! Amongst my close friends we occasionally like to play on conventionally "awful" stages because they're fun and things happen on those stages that can't happen on a more typical stage. It's all good fun.

While it can be competitive at times, even though it's not my personal taste, but I still respect it. Run tourneys however way you want, as long as the people playing are enjoying theirselves. Sometimes it can be easy to forget that nothing's stopping you from being as bombastic and outgoing about whatever you enjoy.