Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Lilbolo]

It's a real shame that Fountain of Dreams has the frame drops that it does and might not be tournament viable. It's such a beautiful stage.

 

[Skeleghost]

I see your point completely and there's a big point to be made for the efficacy of these discussions.

My frustration is basically--why AREN'T any high level players/big names advocating for **** like pXp1? Why AREN'T big names in the community actually caring about things like stage diversity? Me personally I AM more liberal in the sense that I don't mind very unconventional stages, but I'm not even saying we should push super hard for that.

I just mean that the stubbornness of the community, in saying things like "There's only going to be 5 legal stages. period" is really toxic. There are ways to do this better, and how have we fallen from "banning things that are proven to be degenerate" to "banning anything that seems 'weird'"

appeals to accessibility to new players on that front are misguided--new players are probably the ones that will be most put off by 1-2 stages being played in the vast majority of matches. And if we only have 5 legal stages even though we have near/over a dozen likely viable stages...there WILL be only 1-2 played in. Appeals to tournament time logistics are legit--but they aren't a case against something like pXp1. Only habit and stubbornness are holding it back.

It seems like the thing to do here is to gather the most reasonable and rational arguments for stages like Lylat, T&C, along with compelling cases for rulesets like pXp1, echo-grouping stages like BF and Dreamland, and take these discussions to KEY people. try to have discussions with your local community. Make a case for your local TOs to run an event with these rules or run one yourself. Take the best points of these discussions to the places like discord where the big influencers in the community like Zero and Leffen are talking.

I agree caution, respect, and articulacy are important here--it's important that those key people don't get the scattered debate about "Are gaps bad??" that's happening here, valuable as that is for our own understanding of this discourse.

But we should go to those key people with "We can cut down time AND encourage variety with pXp1" and "with pXp1 we can have lists that include borderline stages like WW, T&C, Lylat, etc. without gimping ppl's choices OR ban power"

Just in case it isn't clear, when I say "There's only going to be 5 legal stages. period" I do not mean "There SHOULD be 5 stages". I am saying that this is the logical consequence of the current ruleset. PXP1 seems to me like it would be a large improvement, and it's probably more realistic to get TOs on board with that than my personalized lists thing, since it isn't as big of a change.

Another thing that should be noted: TOs are naturally hyper conservative not because they are lazy or selfish, but because it is often rational to be conservative. If a TO allows only 5 stages, then nothing too unpredictable will happen. If they try a new, experimental stage selection system, or allow 20 different stages, then it's possible something dumb will happen that makes them look bad and their tournament look disappointing.

I am still going to claim that Stage Striking is a bad system. But it's a bad system that happens to be good enough. A new system might be much better, but it also might be worse. If there is a new system that is probably better, like PXP1 or Personal Lists, they still might not be inclined to give it a try, because if there is even a chance that the system is worse, it is a big risk for them.

 

[DavemanCozy]

Yup, the gaps make it so you can't approach without jumping, which puts you in a bad position and leads to camping. Banned.

Snake in particular can toss grenades and use his missile to force an approach, and because his duck is so low he can avoid most projectiles thrown at him (also the sides are lower than the center). I have seen it done and it is extremely gross and boring to watch, and this is Snake we're talking about who's a good fighter already.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

FWIW, M2K is in favor of testing stages out before banning them. https://twitter.com/MVG_Mew2King/status/1073363664856592386

I don't personally have the time to run my own tournament with blackjack and hookers experimental stages, but would an online arena lobby thing be a workable substitute?

 

[AppleCharles]

My Stages w/ Hazards Off:

Starter Stages:

1. Final Destination (Omega Variants), Wily Castle, PictoChat 2
2. Battlefield (Battlefield Variants), Midgar, Dream Land, Fountain of Dreams, Yoshi's Story
3. Pokemon Stadium 1, Pokemon Stadium 2, Unova Pokemon League
4. Smashville, Yoshi's Island
5. Town and City

Counterpick Stages:

6. Kalos Pokemon League
7. Lylat Cruise
8. Skyloft
9. WarioWare
10. Castle Siege
11. Frigate Orpheon

I'm going to be using these stages for 1v1 friendlies at my local meet up this weekend. I'm going to leave it on hazards off the whole time since toggling hazards is an inconvenience. I grouped all the similar stages together in case we do stage banning. Starter stage categories are no platforms, 3 platforms, 2 platforms, 1 platform, and platforms varying. 5 starters and 6 counterpicks aren't too overwhelming since I doubt all stages or stage alts will be used. Castle siege and frigate orpheon don't seem too bad for asymmetrical stages.

 

[Skeleghost]

I, and everyone else here, keeps talking about "banning stages", but this is a misunderstanding. "Banned" has clearly become the default. So it's not really that stages are being "banned", it's that stages are being "chosen for inclusion". Battlefield, Final Destination, Smashville, and Pokemon Stadium have all been chosen for inclusion. It's not really that T&C or Lylat or WarioWare or whatever are banned, it's that they aren't chosen for inclusion in the starter list. This is why green greens can be 'banned' despite it being debatable whether it is actually ban-worthy.

It's worth noting that this is NOT what happened in melee. Years ago, I remember grand finals being held on friggin' corneria. All stages were allowed until there was very clear reason to ban it. That is clearly not what is happening now. And because the community has already decided on most of the stagelist (without undergoing a few years of testing), the final stage list that the community settles on will almost certainly NOT be the best possible stage list.

Note: I actually think random stage selection is better than striking or counterpicking. It promotes adaptability over technical expertise, which is better for the game's long term health, I'd argue. I don't expect people to start using it, but you certainly can't say "it's impractical" or "it's too time consuming" or "It's confusing to new players".

 

[[Deuce]]

double post

 

[[Deuce]]

Love the discussion on methodologies here.

PXP1 does allow for a larger overall stagelist, but I feel like it adds more time to the process which is precisely what the TOs are trying to avoid. Unfortunately, it feels like there is a level of sacrifice between competitive integrity and time alotted.

One concern I had about one of the posts earlier that suggested players make their own lists and combine them via TO or an app is twofold: One, like another mentioned here, it places dependence on the reliability of said app and creates an additional barrier to new players, or if via TO it may be susceptible to information leak. Secondly, an app that identifies the "optimal" stage given stagelists ignores the fact that stage preferences are dynamic and vary from when I play against one person vs another. To use a universal algorithm would be disingenuous to the real thought that goes into stage selection in competition.

Ive had discussion where I have proposed random as a logistical solution but unfortunately that was also not viable due to not being able to see the stage selected during the css, which potentially creates more delay.

Starter/CP is not perfect, and has as many flaws as other proposed systems, I dont like it but its unfortunatrly here to stay due to status quo.

I say: 5-7 starters for the time constraint, bigass cp list with X-2-1(which takes more time than traditional CP), and DSR for variety.
Either that or seasonal stagelists which Im a fan of.

 

[Akiak]

PXP1 does allow for a larger overall stagelist, but I feel like it adds more time to the process which is precisely what the TOs are trying to avoid. Unfortunately, it feels like there is a level of sacrifice between competitive integrity and time alotted.

I think you might find in practice that this isn't the case. Let's say we have 13 stages (and 2 bans):

With bans: L bans 2 stages (out of 13), W picks 1 (out of 11)

With p3p1: L picks 3 stages (out of 13), W picks 1 (out of 3)

You're adding one extra 'selection', but I'd argue that the amount of time spent thinking is overall lower. This is because the more stages you have to consider, the longer it'll take to come to a decision.

Also, the focus is on your best stages, as opposed to your worst, which is generally quicker. I.e. it takes less time for me to figure out my 3 best stages, than to figure out my opponent's 2 worst stages (out of the full list).

PS: check the Ruleset Discussion thread

 

[Midoriki]

Note: I actually think random stage selection is better than striking or counterpicking.

I might agree with this if the game showed which stage was randomly selected before the game started. I guess it doesn't matter much if you only play one character, but its unfortunate that random prevents you from picking the character best for the stage if you play multiple characters. Has anyone heard of FLiPS being tried at tournaments despite this?

In my opinion, the only thing terribly wrong with the starter-counterpick system is that if there are stages that are not "starter worthy" it is not optimal to learn these stages, since game 1 and your counterpicks never have to be on them, so you can always win on just starters. So even if we save Lylat, if its counter-pick only it still will probably eventually become competitively irrelevant, and we only see the same 5 stages over and over again.

Easiest way to prevent that imo is just to rotate which stages are starters. That's only really viable on a tournament by tournament basis, so its probably still optimal to just practice on the starters for the next big tournament, but at least it prevents counterpick stages from becoming permanently irrelevant.

 

[Krysco]

Finally have access to my Switch so I'll go over the stages I forgot about during my last post.

I can test hazardless Lylat with my buddy and he does main Peach but honestly, the issues with Lylat seem a lot more random. They're not so much exploits you can use to win and moreso the ledges just being terrible like Melee Battlefield and Brawl Final Destination. As much as I like the unique layout, it might be best to go without just so people don't get cheated out of losing a stock because the game decided you were too close to the ledge to deserve to keep your stock.

Speaking of which, there's two other issues with semi solid main stages, one of these issues is exclusive to Delfino, Halberd, Prism Tower and technically New Donk City Hall. since they still travel. The issue exclusive to them is that when the travel platform appears, it goes up and leaves the previous part of the stage behind. If you get spiked or footstooled or put into another sort of tech situation or a bury or sleep state right as this happens, you can lose your stock, even at 0%. For clarifications sake, back in Sm4sh, Wuhu Island and Skyloft didn't do this. The game would leave you where you were and just put you into an aerial state so you were still relatively close to the travel platform. This is also why I say NDCH is a technicality. It DOES put you in an aerial state but it does it when you're so low that Ganondorf can't even make it with his double jump and up special. Given that the only 2 stages I mentioned that people seem to care the slighest bit about are Halberd and Prism, I'll be more specific with them. With Halberd, the issue is mostly only present at the beginning but also happens as the travel platform leaves the Halberd ship. I'll have to do an 8 min match (I'm assuming that's the standard time for now?) to see how often it happens but with it happening at the beginning, you could effectively have to do a 2 vs 3 stock match within the first 30 seconds because you got footstooled. Prism Tower is similar but has the issue at the same point every time, on the base of the tower. Again, would have to do an 8 min match to see how often it happens.

The other issue all semi solid stages have is how they mess with some recoveries. On a stage like Smashville or FD or Battlefield, Town and City, Warioware etc, as Ike you know that if you Quick Draw anywhere at ledge height, if you're within range, you'll grab that ledge. On semi solid stages, Ike will actually pass through the ledge and fall to his death. He can only snap to the ledge with Quick Draw if he spaces himself properly. This doesn't HAVE to be seen as a bad thing and instead just a different thing but it inherently makes good recoveries better like Villager and Pikachu since they get easy access to the additional option of going through the stage while already bad recoveries like Ike's and Ganon's get worse since they now have to space some of their recovery options.

Kalos is the only stage I see being considered that I didn't mention at all and honestly, I don't know what to test on it other than camping on the platforms as far away from the stage as possible. Some characters can't reach that far with their grounded options and would be forced to jump and land on the platform which is react-able and punishable.

Oh and with Frigate Orpheon, I didn't save a replay of this happening but even if I did, it'd be gone now since I updated to 1.2.0 but on the day Ultimate came out, I was doing a match with my buddy where I was Pichu on Frigate Orpheon and I used Quick Attack up diagonal and then down diagonal to land on the vertical moving platform. It was at its lowest position and I ended up going between the crack between the platform and the main stage and died for it. Haven't seen any clips of it happening to anyone else but it's something to look out for.

With all this said, if there's anything anyone wants me to try exploiting or testing on any stage, feel free to let me know. I'll try out anything and upload any replays with some post commentary to give my own thoughts and it gives anyone who watches something to look at and see if there's any counterplay to anything that was done in the videos or if the stage in question is too troublesome.

Again, I'm all for a bigger stage list since it's easier to cut stuff than add stuff in (see 64 with Hyrule Castle, Melee with Mute City, Poke Floats, Brinstar and the DK stages, Brawl with Castle Siege, Delfino Plaza, Halberd and Frigate Orpheon and Sm4sh with Duck Hunt). It gives more variety, more strategy, more options and more visual differences. But despite my preferences, I'm willing to help with stage matters in anyway, even if that means my findings end up getting a stage banned. And in case anyone thinks I'm a complete nobody (I mean, I pretty much am) ParanoidDrone may remember that I once did a video for Sm4sh Skyloft where I jumped into the geometry all over the place to find out where the hitboxes were. The stage never ended up becoming legalized but I did what I could to help back then and am willing to do the same for this game.

 

[Galgatha]

Ive had discussion where I have proposed random as a logistical solution but unfortunately that was also not viable due to not being able to see the stage selected during the css, which potentially creates more delay.

What if we combined things? Random stage selection 1 from a preset list of "nutral stages" that are the only stages set to on in the Random Stage List, and then Loser picks 3/5, winner bans 1/3, Loser picks for the rest matches?

Honestly, this might be the best option IMO. Allows far more stages, should be pretty quick (typically people will know what stages they would like to play on and can whip that up quickly), I don't really see anything wrong with it.

For instance, the starters allowed in first stage pick would be:

1) Battlefield
2) Smashville
3) Pokemon Stadium
4) Final Destination

Then all other legal stages (even those which appear to be contested) would remain as CP stages.

 

[[Deuce]]

I think you might find in practice that this isn't the case. Let's say we have 13 stages (and 2 bans):

With bans: L bans 2 stages (out of 13), W picks 1 (out of 11)

With p3p1: L picks 3 stages (out of 13), W picks 1 (out of 3)

You're adding one extra 'selection', but I'd argue that the amount of time spent thinking is overall lower. This is because the more stages you have to consider, the longer it'll take to come to a decision.

Also, the focus is on your best stages, as opposed to your worst, which is generally quicker. I.e. it takes less time for me to figure out my 3 best stages, than to figure out my opponent's 2 worst stages (out of the full list).

PS: check the Ruleset Discussion thread

It may just be personal feeling but I like X-2-1 over PXP1 because it seems off that during your counterpick the opponent has the final say on the stage. Originally with PXP1 I assumed the stages selected would have been larger, such as 5 or 6 but this makes more sense. With X-2-1 I believe the over all process is undoubtedly longer. X would be greater than 3 otherwise it would just be like P3P1.

 

[Munomario777]

IMO, giving L the final say isn’t necessary, so I mainly advocate for pXp1. If you do reckon that that’s necessary, then X-2-1 is a great alternative with the same benefits and only takes a little bit of extra time. In terms of maintaining the # of bans per player, pXp1 = (X+1)-2-1 (eg p3p1 = 4-2-1).

 

[ParanoidDrone]

It may just be personal feeling but I like X-2-1 over PXP1 because it seems off that during your counterpick the opponent has the final say on the stage. Originally with PXP1 I assumed the stages selected would have been larger, such as 5 or 6 but this makes more sense. With X-2-1 I believe the over all process is undoubtedly longer. X would be greater than 3 otherwise it would just be like P3P1.

PXP1 is functionally identical to giving the winner X - 1 bans, if that helps map it any better in your head.

 

[lordvaati]

Hazards mixed appears to be tested now, and it's a spectacular failure:

2gg ran the "good" way to do mixed hazards with 2 rulesets.

There were 30 reported instances of hazard mix-ups at MSM. That's just the reported ones.

We need smaller stages. Hazardless Smashville and Yoshi's are smaller.

It's easier to practice.

Hazards off pls

— TLTC (@ImTLTC) December 12, 2018

There is even some footage of people messing up in Grand Finals! Hazards off it is.

I can live with that. Hazrdless is a major reason why we have probably the most diverse stage list yet. the two most argued stages for keeping Hazards on are FoD and YS, and both stages are in limbo from a legal sense(FoD from slowdown, YS only being playable Hazardless due to food.) and lastly, it might be needed to stop the game from inevitably being overcentralized around Smashville for the 3rd installment in a row, which creates a benefit of being a service for spectators.

Ever since Hazards Off was an option I even said there should be no real discussion that it should be a standard, especially since no one made exceptions for Palutena or Miis with Customs in prior games, so Stages should not have that luxury either.

 

[AppleCharles]

Scenario:

Imagine a 32 player single elimination best of 5 1v1 tournament. There would be 5 rounds in the tourney. There would be like maybe 11 legal stages with hazards off: FD, BF, Pokemon Stadium, Unova, Kalos, Yoshi's Island, Smashville, Town & City, Lylat Cruise, Skyloft, and WarioWare.

At each stage of the tourney, 6 of the 11 stages are predetermined to be banned at random in at advanced which leaves the players with 5 available stages. They (or Loser) choose which available stage to play on, and after the match ends, that stage will also be banned. This leaves them with 4 available stages, and the stage count keeps lowering until their battle of 5 finishes. When the winners move on to the next round, they have another 5 randomly selected stages available to play with.

I think this method of having temporarily banned stages will help keep stage variety (when there are a lot of stages) while still letting the players pick and choose which stages they want to play on. The players will have to keep adapting to the stages they will be playing on.

In a larger player entry tourney with pools and double elimination, this method will become more tedious.

thoughts on this method? (trying something different from the typical starter/counterpick method)

 

[[Deuce]]

PXP1 is functionally identical to giving the winner X - 1 bans, if that helps map it any better in your head.

If you mean X-1 bans in an X-2-1 format ie. X-(X-1)-1, that still means the winner still gets the last say.

 

[Ninten (BBs)]

If this is going on smashwiki, here is what i think should define the legality.
Tier 0: Legal in every way possible
Tier 1: Generally legal, but may be illegal in strict rulesets.
Tier 2: Either legal or banned
Tier 3: Generally illegal, but may be in some experimental rulesets.
Tier 4: Absolutely illegal in competitive play, but casual play is allowed. May be used in 8 player smash tourneys if large and hazards are turned off.
Tier 5: Please dont play this. No way anyone picks this.
(Below, the suggestions are for a with hazards ruleset)
Here are some tier 5 stage suggestions:
75m (overly large, fire hazard)
Mario Bros (why does this exist)
Hanenbow (overly large, leaves shake up gameplay)
Tier 4 suggestions:
Distant Planet (insta ko hazards in the giant thing and rainfall)
Mushroomy Kingdom (autoscrolling stage.)
Brinstar (acid.)
Corneria (too large plus cave of life)
Great Cave Offensive (too mfing large)
Palutenas Temple (do i need an explanation)
Gaur Plain (too large, dragon guy)
3d land (scrolling stage)
Rainbow cruise (scrolling stage)
Tier 3:
Bridge of Eldin (king bulborb)
Temple (too large)
Brinstar Dephs (MANY caves of life)
Kongo Jungle 64 (barrel cannon)
Princess Peach Castle (banzai bill)
Mushroom Kingdom II (birdo)
Dream Land GB (scroller)
Tier 2:
Big Battlefield (illegal in singles)
Frigate Orpheon (that 180 turn thang)
Fountain of Dreams (*lag in doubles)
Tier 1:
Big Blue (random terrain)
Omega Forms (too similar to final destination, may be used as visual alternative)
Battlefield Forms (too similar to battlefield, again, visual alternative)
Pilotwings (rare, but 0-deaths can occur)
Tier 0:
Battlefield
Final Destination
Lylat Cruise
Smashville
Town and City
Dream Land 64
Moray towers

 

[Scoutmain06]

Every stage should be legal or else it turns into fake news competive smash bros where the only stage played is final destination and there's no skill/awareness whatsoever

 

[Akiak]

It may just be personal feeling but I like X-2-1 over PXP1 because it seems off that during your counterpick the opponent has the final say on the stage. Originally with PXP1 I assumed the stages selected would have been larger, such as 5 or 6 but this makes more sense. With X-2-1 I believe the over all process is undoubtedly longer. X would be greater than 3 otherwise it would just be like P3P1.

I think you're probably right that 4-2-1 is slower than 2 bans... but probably not by a very large amount.
Anyways if you're doing 2 bans honestly I think p3p1 is definitely the better choice over 4-2-1, both for simplicity and saving time (and because giving the loser the final say isn't important imo).

However if you're doing 1 ban, then 3-2-1 (over p2p1) is fine imo as it's definitely simple enough.

If you mean X-1 bans in an X-2-1 format ie. X-(X-1)-1, that still means the winner still gets the last say.

[X]-bans == P[X+1]P1 == [X+2]-2-1

 

[Rpcouv]

It's a real shame that Fountain of Dreams has the frame drops that it does and might not be tournament viable. It's such a beautiful stage.

I think without the frame drops it should be legal it's like battlefield but with a twist.

 

[Ninten (BBs)]

Your a dummy. There are many legal stages. People like you only deserve final destination

 

[TCT~Phantom]

Ok here we go.

In my opinion the easiest solution to all of this is grouping. Group certain stages into a format where they are acceptable.

After testing with hazards mixed, it seems they having two rulesets is unproductive. As such, we will most likely be using a hazards off ruleset.

Stage morph is interesting but needs testing. I feel morph could Help ya w striking issues but we would need to test.

Starters
Triplat
Pokemon
Monoplat
FD
T&C

Triplets; BF, DL, Midgar, gentleman BF form (CP: Brinstar, YS, Skyloft Mushroom Kingdom U)
FD: Gentleman Onega ( CP Umbra, WC)
Monoplat: Smashville, Yoshi Brawl ( CP Wuhu)
Pokemon: PS2, PS1, CP: Unova, Kalos)

T&C is starter by process of elimination it was it Lylat or Wario but those have issues of size or edges.

CP:
Group stages that are designated CP become legal now
Lylat Cruise
WarioWare
Castle Seige
Frigate Orpheon
Prism Tower
Halberd

This I feel is a solid ruleset through I would be willing to elaborate more.

Concerns:
Sharking (think this will be not as big of an issue) on halberd and PT.
Wall on Frigate Orpheon even if temporary
Lylat having bad edges
MKU/Skyloft/Wuhu being too different to be grouped)

 

[Fenrir VII]

Played in an online tournament with 6 legal stages.... 3 of them were FD, Kalos, and T&C
God that was painful during CPing. Won first match on BF, lost round 2, opponent bans Smashville. I get my choice of PS2 or 3 variations of FD.

I wish people would realize that the balance of the stage list is more important than anything else when deciding "fairness" of each stage. You can't look at each stage in a bubble without considering how it affects the balance of the list. That is critical.

Regarding triplats, a common thing is lumping all of them in together and group-accepting or banning them (you can pick "Battlefield" and choose to go to any triplat for example). I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I feel like Yoshi's Story should be separated from that grouping and treated as its own stage in the list due to the significant differences from BF (sloped edges, walls, platforms over edges, and general spacing). I also disagree with lumping Yoshi's Island Brawl and Smashville together for similar reasons.

All that said, here's my new recommended stage list for a 5-stage starter list (for a 7-stage, add any 2 CPs except you can't add both T&C and Kalos):

Starters:
-Final Destination
-Battlefield / standard triplats
-Smashville
-PokeStadium 2 / standard 2plats
-WarioWare

Counterpicks:
-Town & City
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Story (Melee)
-Skyloft
-Kalos
-Frigate Orpheon

Fringe/Potential CPs:
-Brinstar (platform variations seem to help short chars, who don't need it imo)
-Halberd (needs some more testing but seems ok)
-Castle Siege (only real issue is the stage effects blinding edgeguards, which admittedly might be bannable)
-Prism Tower (imo the best transformer. Completely depends on the initial walkoff legality)

 

[Galgatha]

Played in an online tournament with 6 legal stages.... 3 of them were FD, Kalos, and T&C
God that was painful during CPing. Won first match on BF, lost round 2, opponent bans Smashville. I get my choice of PS2 or 3 variations of FD.

I wish people would realize that the balance of the stage list is more important than anything else when deciding "fairness" of each stage. You can't look at each stage in a bubble without considering how it affects the balance of the list. That is critical.

Regarding triplats, a common thing is lumping all of them in together and group-accepting or banning them (you can pick "Battlefield" and choose to go to any triplat for example). I don't necessarily disagree with this, but I feel like Yoshi's Story should be separated from that grouping and treated as its own stage in the list due to the significant differences from BF (sloped edges, walls, platforms over edges, and general spacing). I also disagree with lumping Yoshi's Island Brawl and Smashville together for similar reasons.

All that said, here's my new recommended stage list for a 5-stage starter list (for a 7-stage, add any 2 CPs except you can't add both T&C and Kalos):

Starters:
-Final Destination
-Battlefield / standard triplats
-Smashville
-PokeStadium 2 / standard 2plats
-WarioWare

Counterpicks:
-Town & City
-Yoshi's Island (Brawl)
-Lylat Cruise
-Yoshi's Story (Melee)
-Skyloft
-Kalos
-Frigate Orpheon

Fringe/Potential CPs:
-Brinstar (platform variations seem to help short chars, who don't need it imo)
-Halberd (needs some more testing but seems ok)
-Castle Siege (only real issue is the stage effects blinding edgeguards, which admittedly might be bannable)
-Prism Tower (imo the best transformer. Completely depends on the initial walkoff legality)

Not too bad I guess, but where is Wuhu Island, MKU? I still think some stages that aren't being mentioned (Reset Bomb Forrest, Green Greens, Raindow Cruise, Dracula's Castle) deserve some tournament testing. I know a wall infiinite has been "found" but we have yet to see it actually play out against a human opponent so that is still up in the air. The Camping argument for Green Greens needs to be tested as well. Others have said that every single character can go from middle platform to side platforms just by running off with no jumps. This allows mixups and change-ups when switching between the platforms. Plus, how the side platforms are slightly lower than the middle platform makes regular projectile spam much more difficult to perform. I don't think the camping argument works for Bomb Forrest given the soft platform that spans the entire gap.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Not too bad I guess, but where is Wuhu Island, MKU? I still think some stages that aren't being mentioned (Reset Bomb Forrest, Green Greens, Raindow Cruise, Dracula's Castle) deserve some tournament testing. I know a wall infiinite has been "found" but we have yet to see it actually play out against a human opponent so that is still up in the air. The Camping argument for Green Greens needs to be tested as well. Others have said that every single character can go from middle platform to side platforms just by running off with no jumps. This allows mixups and change-ups when switching between the platforms. Plus, how the side platforms are slightly lower than the middle platform makes regular projectile spam much more difficult to perform. I don't think the camping argument works for Bomb Forrest given the soft platform that spans the entire gap.

That was me, and it works in both directions despite the height difference.

 

[Galgatha]

That was me, and it works in both directions despite the height difference.

Thanks, I thought so but I had no idea who to give credit too (or how to properly mention someone in a post lol).

 

[ATH_]

alright, i've been testing with friends for the last week and here's my current list (reasons below, counterpicks are in order from most to least viable)

Hazards Off, Not Mixed Hazards
STARTERS (5):
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Town & City

COUNTERPICKS (9):
Kalos Pokemon League
WarioWare Inc
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege
Halberd
Brinstar
Skyloft
Mushroom Kingdom U
Prism Tower

absent: Wuhu, Duck Hunt, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Kongo Jungle, Lylat, and Rainbow Cruise.

Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2: Bright and balanced, while it is subjective, some stages are very dark in this game and i think shifting the list around stages being visually effective is the way to go.
WarioWare Inc: small horizontal blast zones are not a reason to ban a stage when we've dealt with tiny stagelists for years. all stages have their ups and downsides, and that makes them unique.
Halberd: sharking is a little worrisome but i think it's the best of this type because it transforms between a version where sharking is and isn't possible. it's a really fun and dynamic stage.
Brinstar: the stage curving up in the middle really aids to not support sharking as much. the highish platforms also help this. it's the kind of stage that will always get striked against tiny characters like Young Link and Isabelle.
Skyloft: doesn't transform like halberd but the ledges being flat with the ground makes the ledge slightly less effective for stalling. could potentially remove from the list.
Mushroom Kingdom U: this stage is great and only suffers from the ledges being obscured and its size. size isn't really an issue in my opinion though and i think the platforms are great for preventing camping unlike Kongo Jungle.
Prism Tower: the least viable stage on the list, could easily be removed. the transformations are extremely short and i actually think that makes the less desirable transformations fine. at most it lets you stall for a few seconds.

Wuhu Island: ledge is extremely powerful as a third of the cast. sharking is inevitable and honestly disgusting on this stage, but could be viable with rules against sharking.
Duck Hunt: tree platform is just too high. stage is just imbalanced and awful, but i know somebody's going to want this stage.
Yoshi's Island: with halberd and smashville, this feels redundant. it invalidates striking if your character excels on said stages.
Kongo Jungle: platforms too high, way too easy to stall and never die. the center platforms are finicky.
Lylat Cruise: i wish this stage had a battlefield-like bottom. but sadly no. ledges are garbage, glitchy messes. this stage is a pain to play and a pain to watch. it benefits nobody to have it in. done and done.
Rainbow Cruise: believe it or not, this stage isn't that bad imo. the wall is the main issue, but yeah could be viable with more testing maybe.

final thoughts: i really really wish nintendo would help us out with a better hazards setting to make it easier to change on the fly. or maybe making it so you can flag certain stages as always hazards off and others as always hazards on. i love Fountain of Dreams and regular Smashville, and it sucks we can't use that. even without using Skyloft, Mushroom Kingdom U, and Prism Tower, you've still got a solid 11 stages and i'm all for that. i really think people should shift mindsets towards a stage's ups/downsides being what makes it unique, such as with MKU's obscured ledges or WarioWare's blast zones. giving players more options to decide what their character is good or bad one promotes more skill intensive tournaments. but also considering that having too many redundant stages will make strikes irrelevant, which is extremely bad.

def would appreciate any feedback on my reasoning here so i can take others thoughts into account!

 

[Galgatha]

def would appreciate any feedback on my reasoning here so i can take others thoughts into account!

Reset Bomb Forrest? Dracula's Castle? Green Greens?

 

[Fenrir VII]

alright, i've been testing with friends for the last week and here's my current list (reasons below, counterpicks are in order from most to least viable)

Hazards Off, Not Mixed Hazards
STARTERS (5):
Battlefield
Final Destination
Smashville
Pokemon Stadium 2
Town & City

COUNTERPICKS (9):
Kalos Pokemon League
WarioWare Inc
Frigate Orpheon
Castle Siege
Halberd
Brinstar
Skyloft
Mushroom Kingdom U
Prism Tower

absent: Wuhu, Duck Hunt, Yoshi's Island (Brawl), Kongo Jungle, Lylat, and Rainbow Cruise.

Battlefield, Pokemon Stadium 2: Bright and balanced, while it is subjective, some stages are very dark in this game and i think shifting the list around stages being visually effective is the way to go.
WarioWare Inc: small horizontal blast zones are not a reason to ban a stage when we've dealt with tiny stagelists for years. all stages have their ups and downsides, and that makes them unique.
Halberd: sharking is a little worrisome but i think it's the best of this type because it transforms between a version where sharking is and isn't possible. it's a really fun and dynamic stage.
Brinstar: the stage curving up in the middle really aids to not support sharking as much. the highish platforms also help this. it's the kind of stage that will always get striked against tiny characters like Young Link and Isabelle.
Skyloft: doesn't transform like halberd but the ledges being flat with the ground makes the ledge slightly less effective for stalling. could potentially remove from the list.
Mushroom Kingdom U: this stage is great and only suffers from the ledges being obscured and its size. size isn't really an issue in my opinion though and i think the platforms are great for preventing camping unlike Kongo Jungle.
Prism Tower: the least viable stage on the list, could easily be removed. the transformations are extremely short and i actually think that makes the less desirable transformations fine. at most it lets you stall for a few seconds.

Wuhu Island: ledge is extremely powerful as a third of the cast. sharking is inevitable and honestly disgusting on this stage, but could be viable with rules against sharking.
Duck Hunt: tree platform is just too high. stage is just imbalanced and awful, but i know somebody's going to want this stage.
Yoshi's Island: with halberd and smashville, this feels redundant. it invalidates striking if your character excels on said stages.
Kongo Jungle: platforms too high, way too easy to stall and never die. the center platforms are finicky.
Lylat Cruise: i wish this stage had a battlefield-like bottom. but sadly no. ledges are garbage, glitchy messes. this stage is a pain to play and a pain to watch. it benefits nobody to have it in. done and done.
Rainbow Cruise: believe it or not, this stage isn't that bad imo. the wall is the main issue, but yeah could be viable with more testing maybe.

final thoughts: i really really wish nintendo would help us out with a better hazards setting to make it easier to change on the fly. or maybe making it so you can flag certain stages as always hazards off and others as always hazards on. i love Fountain of Dreams and regular Smashville, and it sucks we can't use that. even without using Skyloft, Mushroom Kingdom U, and Prism Tower, you've still got a solid 11 stages and i'm all for that. i really think people should shift mindsets towards a stage's ups/downsides being what makes it unique, such as with MKU's obscured ledges or WarioWare's blast zones. giving players more options to decide what their character is good or bad one promotes more skill intensive tournaments. but also considering that having too many redundant stages will make strikes irrelevant, which is extremely bad.

def would appreciate any feedback on my reasoning here so i can take others thoughts into account!

Actually had this scenario come up in a tournament today:
-Opponent picks sonic
-I HAVE to strike 2 of the 3 large starters (FD and T&C) to deal with Sonic
-Sonic then gets PS2 for free and has an advantage because big open stage.

I really have a problem with starter lists that include FD AND another FD-like. FD has been controversial by itself since Melee... why are we adding another stage that is basically FD or FD with offstage platforms for like 60% of the time?
I don't have a problem with T&C itself... just the way it really skews the starters in a bad way by its inclusion (Kalos does the same thing).

I think we need a small stage as #5 in the starter list. That's why I've been advocating for WarioWare. Just going to say it... if WW is legal, there's no reason imo it should not be a starter. We have a strike system, so nobody who dislikes it needs to play on it in game 1, but it balances the list to not favor any character.

 

[Krysco]

I honestly keep forgetting there's any consideration at all for Reset Bomb Forest. It just screams camp fest to me, with the high up platforms on the right and the gap in the middle. There's the soft platform to help bridge it but that still forces you to go airborne to approach an opponent that's horizontal to you. Like, what does Mac or Ganon do about a Sheik that's willing to camp there? I can see about testing it with my buddy tomorrow along with the other stages but even I don't think it should be legal.

Also, since I just saw WW mentioned, what exactly is wrong with it? The borders are small but they're not Rainbow Cruise left side small. Plus Melee does just fine with Yoshi's Story and even Sm4sh had TnC which had a low ceiling in a game where a good chunk of the cast had a vertical kill confirm or just strong vertical kill options.

 

[Munomario777]

back again with a trimmed stage list and a slicker looking graphic

 

[ATH_]

Reset Bomb Forrest? Dracula's Castle? Green Greens?

Reset Bomb Forest: Interesting but the top platform is really gross and either results in camping or extremely early kills. The gap at the bottom is something I never ran into huge problems while testing but I could see it coming up as a problem. This is one of those stages that like, maybe has a shot under certain rulesets but I personally think it's not viable enough to be put into a list.

Dracula's Castle: I'll be honest, haven't tested this one enough. It feels like Rainbow Cruise but with the front of the ship moved to the right side of the stage (if that makes any sense). It's intriguing, and the slope might be bad, but I don't know. I'd love to see some data about the blastzones on this one.

Green Greens: This one is super fun in matches that aren't strictly competitive. If you're playing the game to win, to try to earn money, or to get better at the game, people are going to camp hard. My main issue doesn't really result in that though, it's more about how many stages we allow that are potentially campable. If you have too many, then you invalidate striking them. You could easily switch out Mushroom Kingdom U with Green Greens and run that and see how it goes, but I personally thing MKU is more viable.

Actually had this scenario come up in a tournament today:
-Opponent picks sonic
-I HAVE to strike 2 of the 3 large starters (FD and T&C) to deal with Sonic
-Sonic then gets PS2 for free and has an advantage because big open stage.

I really have a problem with starter lists that include FD AND another FD-like. FD has been controversial by itself since Melee... why are we adding another stage that is basically FD or FD with offstage platforms for like 60% of the time?
I don't have a problem with T&C itself... just the way it really skews the starters in a bad way by its inclusion (Kalos does the same thing).

I think we need a small stage as #5 in the starter list. That's why I've been advocating for WarioWare. Just going to say it... if WW is legal, there's no reason imo it should not be a starter. We have a strike system, so nobody who dislikes it needs to play on it in game 1, but it balances the list to not favor any character.

Sadly many others I've spoken to disagree. Again, if we have too many stages that are similar or benefit one type of character, then strikes are invalidated and mean nothing in those matchups.

I'd love to see WarioWare become a standard starter. I think it'd be a great contender.

I also don't know a lot about the "grouping" striking that others were talking about but a new way of picking a stage is welcomed by me.

 

[Munomario777]

I'd love to see some data about the blastzones on this one.

here's the data from my document

 

[Frihetsanka]

ledges are garbage, glitchy messes. this stage is a pain to play and a pain to watch. it benefits nobody to have it in. done and done.

I've had no issues playing on Lylat and I've no issues watching it. The ledges aren't really bad, I labbed them a bit and recovering isn't hard. Lylat should remain legal, at least for the time being.

 

[J0eyboi]

back again with a trimmed stage list and a slicker looking graphic

View attachment 183227

You should take Skyloft off the list. Not for any good reason, but because I just noticed that the platforms are ever so slightly asymmetrical and it pisses me off and I don't think I'll ever unsee it.

I think we need a small stage as #5 in the starter list. That's why I've been advocating for WarioWare. Just going to say it... if WW is legal, there's no reason imo it should not be a starter. We have a strike system, so nobody who dislikes it needs to play on it in game 1, but it balances the list to not favor any character.

There are so many other options that are better than putting Warioware as a starter. For example:

- Make Yoshi's Story stage 5. Two triplats isn't ideal, but it's not the end of the world.

- Replace BF with Yoshi's Story and T&C with Unova. This will never happen, but would result in having 2 big stages, 2 small stages, and an average-size stage. Would also have the side effect of making Little Mac complete garbage (can't fullhop to unova, smashville, or Yoshi's plats) but eh.

- Replace PS2 with PS1 (this should happen anyway, PS1's layout is better) and T&C with Unova. Gives the stagelist more BF-sized stages with Unova.

 

[ATH_]

here's the data from my document

thank you! this is really interesting, i'll have to get more testing done here for sure!

I've had no issues playing on Lylat and I've no issues watching it. The ledges aren't really bad, I labbed them a bit and recovering isn't hard. Lylat should remain legal, at least for the time being.

sadly, these experiences are not universal. even without the tilting, lylat's ledges have always been extremely finicky even coming from melee battlefield. while i suppose i could personally have a bias on lucina or characters with extremely precise recoveries who benefit from sloped undersides like battlefield, i'm not just speaking for myself.
everyone i know hates this stage, and hates to watch other players die in an intense match just to faulty ledges.
but really, there isn't an objective truth here, so keep it on your personal list if that's what works!

 

[YOJOEHOJO]

I was looking at this a few hours ago just to see which stages are legal and I have an inquiry about what was meant by "flat stages" within the regard of the second bullet point of the feasible stage list, since I presume it clearly could not mean the stages with walk-offs. Would it perhaps be, for example, Isle Delfino's stage (within the regard of the main platform) and the like?

 

[Munomario777]

I was looking at this a few hours ago just to see which stages are legal and I have an inquiry about what was meant by "flat stages" within the regard of the second bullet point of the feasible stage list, since I presume it clearly could not mean the stages with walk-offs. Would it perhaps be, for example, Isle Delfino's stage (within the regard of the main platform) and the like?

flat stages as in omega flat zone etc – the character models are flattened so that when you turn the camera, they’re not 3D

this affects how hitboxes work and etc