Meta SSBU Stagelist Discussion

[Fenrir VII]

Hi guys. Imo the biggest problem with smash 4's stage list was that FD, Smashville, and T&C all benefited the same characters with pretty similar, open layouts. So no matter how the striking went, you were guaranteed one of those stages, which again seemed to favor certain characters.

So now with ultimate, I think we have an opportunity to change that and select 5-9 stages for neutral that offer different advantages for different characters. Also keep in mind a striking system will be in place so no single stage can cause an actual issue here.

All that said, here's my idea for a 5-stage starter list, hazards off:
-Final Destination
-Battlefield
-Smashville
-Pokémon Stadium 2
-WarioWare

I know there are concerns about WW having smaller blast zones, but 1. That doesn't mean it's a bad stage and 2. Again it's a starter. Strike it if you want to.
This list offers 5 stages that drastically differ in terms of size, open area, and platform layouts, so I believe these would lead to the fairest and most balanced starters for a striking system.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Extremely likely to be legal, more dubious as to whether it should be counted as battlefield or not.

Yoshi's Story might be legal with hazards off, but with hazards on it's dead.

Halberd (H/off)
-Static
-Can go through platform
-Gradual slopes
-Low ceiling?

Halberd isn't static (it still transforms), and the ceiling is actually the highest in the game out of the potentially legal stages (arguably too high).

Warioware (H/off)
-Quadplat
-Small blast zones

Only the horizontal blastzones are small, the vertical is actually noticeably larger than Battlefield's.

I think a lot of people would really like this stage to be legal, but that battlement on the right side blocking your view is super obtrusive to edgeguarding.

While I do think it's likely to be banned, I doubt this will really be one of the main reasons. The stage has many other issues.

The ceiling also seems kinda high, which gives it value as a counterpick.

The ceiling is pretty average.

Lylat (H/off)
-Unique Triplat
-Jank
Nobody likes this stage and we all know it. Yes its a unique format, but we always have problems with clipping, ledges, etc. There's lots of very reasonable technical reasons to ban this stage, even if there's nothing wrong with it from a layout perspective. Tilt or no tilt if there's ledge issues it's gotta go.

Lots of people like Ultimate Lylat with hazards off, the issues with clipping were probably due to tilting, and there really aren't many reasons to ban it other than bias. Banning stages because of bias is bad.

 

[Raysebi]

Hello, i was messing a bit with the music from the vault menu, and find that the sliders are so wrong. You have like 5% chance to hear almost all tracks except for the first two, the first is like i dunno 70, 80% chance and the second is like 30%. I think the sliders have to be all set to maximum for equal chance to hear all the music. Gladly you off course can change the default sliders but this seems like a bit unknown because is from vault>sounds>my music. It's a tangled route perhaps, but i recommend to all people to modify this and spread the word.

 

[Gunla]

Hey all,

I've been a bit busy for the past few days because of finals. While I'm not ultimately out of the woods just yet (I'll be finished tomorrow) I do have a bit of time to make changes and such tomorrow afternoon. I appreciate all of your feedback and I thank you for bearing with me on this sort of misadventure.

A few things:
Munomario777 I'll be referencing that document, much appreciated. I won't put direct numbers just yet but I'll do it over the week sometime, probably tomorrow afternoon or Wednesday.
ParanoidDrone Wuhu was a bit of a goof on my end, and I'm frankly not sure how I forgot about how it's Hazardless version works. I've taken a look at some of the red stages and I'll probably be condensing the lists a fair bit (the green list for the most part is for stages that seem to be universally legal across events) and two other lists, one for feasible stages and another for nonfeasible stages (the current blacklist), though I may just lump all the feasible stages together since of how early it is at the moment).

As a note I've noticed a lot of people have sort of begun to move to much smaller stagelists (2GG recently announced they'd be moving to a 7-stage stagelist and most of their more unique additions were cut entirely). Can't say I'm really for having 7 stages legal less than a week in.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Can't say I'm really for having 7 stages legal less than a week in.

It's a bit much, especially since Lylat isn't on it. If we start with 7, there's not much room to replace stages if some turn out to be worse than expected.

 

[Mapet]

Why is Find Mii not suitable for competitive play with hazards off? The only thing I can think of is the cage, but the ceiling it creates is very small.

 

[Munomario777]

Time to post my current stage list + procedure!

In the past, I've advocated for alternatives to starter/CP division, such as VSL (where the list of starters changes from set to set within a tournament) and morphing-based systems (which bypass the need to strike down to one stage). The main goal there was to avoid treating certain stages as more important, which is, in theory, bad for long-term stage variety.

After running into logistical issues with both of those systems, though, I've decided to instead use a traditional starter system. I plan to help mitigate the aforementioned concern with starter/CP in the following ways:

- Each tournament will feature a different list of starters, and
- pXp1 as a game 2+ system will help promote stage variety compared to the traditional game 2+ system.

P.S. If you'd like to help test out this ruleset, consider joining the tourney on the 15th at http://smash.gg/ssbu01



Mapet The big concern with the Find Mii cage is that you can camp on top of it. It's about as high as the Duck Hunt tree, and can't jump or attack through it easily from below. Additionally, the gap on the right of the stage might be too wide. I'm not opposed to testing it though.

 

[IsmaR]

Why is Find Mii not suitable for competitive play with hazards off? The only thing I can think of is the cage, but the ceiling it creates is very small.

The layout is far too wide for singles, on top of the differing heights on the main and side platform on the right, the gap leaving a wall, and any ceiling at all allows for degenerate play in an isolated part of the stage. The cage is also a wall and can have people stand on it, which allows for circle camping.

 

[Mapet]

The layout is far too wide for singles, on top of the differing heights on the main and side platform on the right, the gap leaving a wall, and any ceiling at all allows for degenerate play in an isolated part of the stage. The cage is also a wall and can have people stand on it, which allows for circle camping.

Thanks for the explanation, I appreciate it!

 

[Gunman1357]

My New Hazards Off Stage List and Ban Rule-Set Proposal Since it seems Hazards off is going to become the norm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...ards_off_stage_list_and_ban_ruleset_proposal/

 

[Shieldlesscap]

My New Hazards Off Stage List and Ban Rule-Set Proposal Since it seems Hazards off is going to become the norm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...ards_off_stage_list_and_ban_ruleset_proposal/

Why is Town and City banned?

Also why are you allowing Halberd and Dracula's but not Pilotwings or Kongo Jungle?

 

[Frihetsanka]

My New Hazards Off Stage List and Ban Rule-Set Proposal Since it seems Hazards off is going to become the norm.
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...ards_off_stage_list_and_ban_ruleset_proposal/

8 starters is terrible. Rainbow Cruise and Dracula's Castle are not more viable than Town & City, and Fountain of Frame Drops shouldn't be legal.

 

[Gunman1357]

I had some misinformation about town & city, my bad. Let me just fix up this proposal, and fine. I'll take off fountains as an Echo,
but explain to me how are the 8 Starters Terrible?

Pilot wings and kongo Jungle have stage camping locations and it can lead to lame tactics.

 

[Frihetsanka]

[...]but explain to me how are the 8 Starters Terrible?

Uneven amount of bans.

 

[Gunman1357]

If you read the banning process, you would realize I covered for that.
Why is everyone so obsessed with banning intill a single stage

 

[dav3yb]

If you read the banning process, you would realize I covered for that.
Why is everyone so obsessed with banning intill a single stage

Because melee! We have to try and cram this game into the melee mold! for REASONS /sarcasm

 

[Gunman1357]

There fixed, 9 starters, 9 Counter picks, T&C is here and No FoD as an echo
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...ards_off_stage_list_and_ban_ruleset_proposal/

 

[Frihetsanka]

There fixed, 9 starters, 9 Counter picks, T&C is here and No FoD as an echo
https://www.reddit.com/r/SmashBrosU...ards_off_stage_list_and_ban_ruleset_proposal/

So, winner bans 2, loser bans 3, winner bans 3? So the winner of RPS gets 5 bans and the loser 3? 4-4 would be better.

 

[Gunman1357]

No the winner of RPS bans 2, Loser bans 3,
and then the winner picks the stage they wanna play on out of the 4 starter stages left.

I did this so the Banning Process wouldn't take too long, and the starters are neutral enough that the
loser of the rps can get all the major bans for their characters. While still giving the winner options for their stage.

However if we REALLY NEEDED to ban to 1, it would be "
RPS, Winner bans 3, Loser Bans 3, Winner Bans 1

 

[Munomario777]

No the winner of RPS gets 2 bans the loser gets 3,
and then the winner picks the stage they wanna play on out of the 4 starter stages left.

that's what frihetsanka just said

W bans 2
L bans 3
W bans 3 more (because he's picking 1 and discarding the other 3)

total them up: W gets 5 bans, L gets 3

 

[Gunman1357]

ah, I guess if you see it like that. Never saw it like that. Then Wouldn't it be better to do.
RPS
W bans 2
L Bans 4
W picks from last 3

 

[Munomario777]

that does indeed balance the # of bans

the more common 9-starter selection method is 1-2-2-2-1, which is

- W bans 1
- L bans 2
- W bans 2
- L bans 2
- W bans 1

this is because 1-2-2-2-1 follows the same pattern as 1-2-1, which is a very thoroughly tested method for choosing between 5 starter stages

specifically, the pattern it follows is that W has the following properties:

- has to ban 1 stage before getting to see any of his opponent's bans
- gets the final say between the remaining 2 stages

1-2-1 has these properties + even number of bans, and is tested to be balanced

so since 1-2-2-2-1 ALSO has these properties + even number of bans, then it should ALSO be balanced

 

[Gunman1357]

True, but this is such a lengthy process, Couldn't it be shortened someway, like how I did it

 

[Munomario777]

that's the concession you make in exchange for using 9 starters while also being fair

 

[Akiak]

Actually you could do 2-3-2-1:

Loser bans 2
Winner bans 3
Loser bans 2
Winner picks 1 out of last two

Both players get 4 bans, and it's a little shorter than 1-2-2-2-1

In theory 1-2-2-2-1 is probably more balanced in terms of information each player gets, but I see 2-3-2 getting suggested a lot too and it's probably not that much worse.

 

[ligersandtigons]

is there a list of stages that get rid of the z-axis?

 

[Untouch]

I'm not actually sure if 2gg's tweet about 7 stages is another joke or something...?
"event's around the world"
2gg has hosted 1 event so far?
80% of the games were played on PS2 too so........................... nice data?

 

[Gunla]

is there a list of stages that get rid of the z-axis?

As noted in the OP: Duck Hunt, Flat Zone X, Dream Land GB, Hanenbow, Super Mario Maker, Mute City (SNES) and Pac-Land flatten the Z-axis.

 

[Pacack]

I highly encourage everyone to consider the viability of the following stages, having played on them all for almost the entire time I've had the game since launch. (I haven't even done World of Light yet.)

I personally advocate for a hazardless only stagelist for the sake of TOs.

Starters:
Triplats (Battlefield+Forms, Dreamland, Yoshi's Story, grouped together)
Flat Stages (Final Destination, Wily's Castle, and omegas)
Stadium Stages (Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2, Unova Pokemon League)
Mono-Platform Stages (Smashville, Yoshi's Island Brawl)
Warioware

Counterpicks:
Kalos Pokemon League (too different to be grouped with the other Pokemon starters)
Castle Siege
Town and City
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Lylat
Prism Tower
Halberd
Frigate Orpheon
Brinstar Depths
Mushroom Kingdom U (Doubles)

I would also experiment with these stages before banning them outright:
Reset Bomb Fortress
Green Greens

 

[dav3yb]

I'm not actually sure if 2gg's tweet about 7 stages is another joke or something...?
"event's around the world"
2gg has hosted 1 event so far?
80% of the games were played on PS2 too so........................... nice data?

Better than 80% smashville.

 

[Untouch]

Better than 80% smashville.

I agree, just saying, there's not NEARLY enough data out there right now.

 

[J0eyboi]

Am I really the only one who thinks T&C shouldn't be legal? It's the only stage in the "conversation" that has moving platforms. They also go offstage.

??

— Rishi (@rishissb) December 11, 2018

Holy ****, these people.

I guess platforms that move are just too hard to play around. FD, Battlefield, and Kalos are all clearly legal, but all three in one stage? That's just not ok.

I'm upset.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

I highly encourage players to consider the viability of the following stages, having played on them all for almost the entire time I've had the game since launch. (I haven't even done World of Light yet.)

I personally advocate for a hazardless only stagelist for the sake of TOs.

Starters:
Triplats (Battlefield+Forms, Dreamland, Yoshi's Story, grouped together)
Flat Stages (Final Destination, Wily's Castle, and omegas)
Dual-Platform Stages (Pokemon Stadium 1 & 2, Unova Pokemon League)
Mono-Platform Stages (Smashville, Yoshi's Island Brawl)
Warioware

Counterpicks:
Kalos Pokemon League (too different to be grouped with the other Pokemon starters)
Castle Siege
Town and City
Skyloft
Wuhu Island
Lylat
Prism Tower
Halberd
Mushroom Kingdom U (Doubles)

I would also experiment with these stages before banning them outright:
Reset Bomb Fortress
Green Greens

Castle Siege? Frigate Orpheon? New Donk City Hall? Dracula's Castle?

Speaking of Dracula's Castle in particular, has anyone tried camping or overcoming camping on the stairs?

(EDIT: I really want to reply to that tweet but I don't think I could be civil about it and I'm not interested in a Twitter debate right now anyway. But JFC.)

 

[J0eyboi]

Speaking of Dracula's Castle in particular, has anyone tried camping or overcoming camping on the stairs?

ESAM found a wall infinite with Ness the other day, so most people are banning it based on that. I'm not even sure it works on Dracula's, and I wouldn't be surprised if the infinite was patched, but the stage will probably be banned regardless.

To actually answer your question, I don't believe they have.

 

[Munomario777]

I'm not even sure it works on Dracula's

The height of the wall probably isn't a factor, since the victim doesn't leave the ground. I've removed it and RC from my list, which is unfortunate but eh.

Hard agree with CS, FO, and NDC testing ParanoidDrone

and yeah that tweet is a meme lol

 

[WritersBlah]

ESAM found a wall infinite with Ness the other day, so most people are banning it based on that. I'm not even sure it works on Dracula's, and I wouldn't be surprised if the infinite was patched, but the stage will probably be banned regardless.

To actually answer your question, I don't believe they have.

Ouch, that's unfortunate. Do you have footage of the exploit for documentation's sake?

Also regarding Rainbow Cruise, from the matches I've played there so far, it'd almost be a great stage were it not for the fact that the left-side blastzone is too close to the ship's edge. It makes the interactions there pretty poorly swingy overall, and since the stage is larger than WarioWare, it promotes camping a decent bit more. I'd be sad to see it go, but I think I'd understand if people just want to get rid of it.

 

[J0eyboi]

Ouch, that's unfortunate. Do you have footage of the exploit for documentation's sake?

Sorry guys but Dracula's Castle and Rainbow Cruise are BANNED

This is why you can't have any walls LOL, it's only a matter of time until we break them

@PG_ESAM is labbing #SSBU_TECH on https://t.co/Qn30mKy9NT
(also #SSBU_NESS triple down-b is a nice 3 piece combo w/o a wall) pic.twitter.com/qhC9PXzJOC

— Andrew Nestico (@PracticalTAS) December 8, 2018

It looks like Ike hops a little when he gets hit, which is why I was unsure it would work on Dracula's.

 

[Gunla]

I have went ahead and updated the main post with a few things, apologies on the delay! This includes some general regrouping (the top grouping is for stages that are universally present in most rulesets, another grouping for not always seen but viable stages, and for stages that are not likely feasible at this time), adding stage data when avaliable (thanks to Munomario777 ), and more. I appreciate the feedback and look forward to more.

 

[Munomario777]

Good stuff! I noticed that you put NDC in both the second and third lists though

Also, personally I’d put Delfino in the second tier rather than the third, since it started legal in 4 – and iirc the ceiling weirdness from 4 is fixed (but don’t quote me on that).

 

[Gunla]

Good stuff! I noticed that you put NDC in both the second and third lists though

Also, personally I’d put Delfino in the second tier rather than the third, since it started legal in 4 – and iirc the ceiling weirdness from 4 is fixed (but don’t quote me on that).

My thoughts on Delfino are in relation to the fact that a few recoveries will now automatically die in the water (namely anyone with a hard landing sort of recovery like Dedede, Ike, Chrom and Mii Swordfighter's 1111). I can get some footage of this in a bit.

EDIT:

I'm not sure how well known this is, but here's something rather interesting about water in Ultimate.

A handful of the harder-landing recoveries seem to now die if they touch water, no matter their percent, because they travel too fast into it. pic.twitter.com/xAU5p39swi

— Gunla (@GunlaEXE) December 12, 2018