SSBM | Shield Breaker (v1.18) - - May 19, 2018

[Aerros11]

tatatat0 apparently Ganondorf's reverse Uair is a semi-spike according to that website.

So he already has a semi spike, he already has a meteor (the dair), and he used to have a spike (the wizard's foot)...That was pretty well rounded.

x__x'|l uhm...I need a bit to compile a list of 15+ frame special moves that sends opponents downward. If I have that list in front of me, maybe I can reach a reasonable conclusion because I'm not gonna change the downB to a side angle (overpowered) or upwards angle (weird and takes away the cool two hit wizard's foot on a grounded opponent).

Basically, I might give only special moves a spiking ability if they are slow (easy to dodge...aka 15+ frames)

Doq since I'm talking about seeing the spike utility then I wanna test your might in vMelee O:
I'm east coast though (NYC), and if yes then Im assuming you're free at around 8pm EST? Would be nice if you could shut me down in a match, but we'll have to see.

 

[tatatat0]

You could just make it send the opponent upwards with like 30BKB and 125-135KBG (Knockback upwards is inherently lower) I think I can see the it. Dair to launch them high, and chase with an aerial d-special and kill them off the top. :D

 

[Achilles1515]

tatatat0 apparently Ganondorf's reverse Uair is a semi-spike according to that website.

So he already has a semi spike, he already has a meteor (the dair), and he used to have a spike (the wizard's foot)...That was pretty well rounded.

x__x'|l uhm...I need a bit to compile a list of 15+ frame special moves that sends opponents downward. If I have that list in front of me, maybe I can reach a reasonable conclusion because I'm not gonna change the downB to a side angle (overpowered) or upwards angle (weird and takes away the cool two hit wizard's foot on a grounded opponent).

Basically, I might give only special moves a spiking ability if they are slow (easy to dodge...aka 15+ frames)

Doq since I'm talking about seeing the spike utility then I wanna test your might in vMelee O:
I'm east coast though (NYC), and if yes then Im assuming you're free at around 8pm EST? Would be nice if you could shut me down in a match, but we'll have to see.

Money match plz

 

[Doq]

Money match plz

I'm too poor for that.

Doq since I'm talking about seeing the spike utility then I wanna test your might in vMelee O:
I'm east coast though (NYC), and if yes then Im assuming you're free at around 8pm EST? Would be nice if you could shut me down in a match, but we'll have to see.

And I am on that west coast lyfe, and I am not home with my copies of melee until about 6:15 tonight (the Gaming Club meets today). Hope that my Melee dump is on one of the good PCs in the Club.

 

[Aerros11]

Achilles1515
XD dammit all

Doq
We're going to experience some dirty continent lag then. I fought glook one time and he's west coast...same problem @__@'|l
Well, we'll see I guess.

tatatat0
I think Ganon would have to be able to jump really really high if that's the case.
I believe my first post in smashboards was to request a charge jump mod. Would've been cool to test but the point is, it has to either be a spike or a meteor and I want to fight Kirby to help fortify my or his standing.

 

[Doq]

Well in any case I am on AnLa if you want to find/fite me.

 

[Aerros11]

>.[
What is your name

 

[tatatat0]

>.[
What is your name

He has a q instead a c for some reason, idek.
Edit: iirc @DoqtorKirby

 

[Aerros11]

Target acquired, Thanks tatatat0

 

[Achilles1515]

Results? Recordings? Salt?

I personally can't imagine a smash that lacks the endorphin rush obtained from spiking an opponent.

 

[Doq]

I have recordings. I went 0-11 tho.

 

[Aerros11]

I got spiked once I think and then another one due to lag; that was about it. My Uairs beat out every other attempt if I recall correctly. Wish we had fought on a CRT

Fought a Falco today on netplay though and it was just platform combos and shine-dairs everywhere -- very effective. I might be wrong about removing spikes for the slow attacks later on but for now at least the damage balancer and removing fast spikes are something I'm fond of.

@__@
And I get a rush from meteor-ing opponents, not spiking, not from Falco at least...not with his 20 frames of pure spiking that requires absolutely no precision or timing .__.

 

[Doq]

I get a rush from styling on my opponents.

I got that Bizzarro Flame mentality. Except with everybody.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

Any of you recommend a 3 round burst fire pistol or a higher damaging pistol?

I'm not adding flinch to his lasers -- they were too cheap. Basically no charge up = no flinch. If I went back to modding project m, I'd do the same to pit.

Sounds like someone's bad against Falco.

A ton of these balance changes are terrible even on paper. How are you testing this and still deciding that these changes are good? You need to really consider the implications of every change you make. These are specific to your own mod because you added a whole bunch of stuff (like tech roll jumping). It really looks like you didn't put thought into balancing.

 

[Aerros11]

MagicScrumpy

You're saying that nerfing Falco's lasers and changing the non-skill-based move that is tech-chasing is enough for you to question the entire mod?

I changed Falco's lasers to ground flinch only by the way.
And I added skill to tech-chasing so that it's not just "Let me chase these 40 frames of helplessness" because it really is mainly the fast characters that can tech chase best (top tiers) and platform tech chasing is shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm not certain many are aware, but there is something called a tier list in ssbm. Tiers indicate inherently that an imbalance is present across characters.

EDIT: If you have any actual suggestions for me that are not bias, then please let me know.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

MagicScrumpy

You're saying that nerfing Falco's lasers and changing the non-skill-based move that is tech-chasing is enough for you to question the entire mod?

I changed Falco's lasers to ground flinch only by the way.
And I added skill to tech-chasing so that it's not just "Let me chase these 40 frames of helplessness" because it really is mainly the fast characters that can tech chase best (top tiers) and platform tech chasing is shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm not certain many are aware, but there is something called a tier list in ssbm. Tiers indicate inherently that an imbalance is present across characters.

EDIT: If you have any actual suggestions for me that are not bias, then please let me know.

Sounds like we have some projection or something going on. None of my comments was biased. Don't get so defensive.

Your mod is never going to be good if you deny criticism and condescend to the people criticizing your work. I never said there was a problem with adding new stuff like being able to jump out of tech rolls; I said that adding a change that drastic will dramatically change how a lot of characters play. I feel like you aren't accounting for this new, powerful defensive option you added when you're adding changes to your mod.

Take Captain Falcon as an example of a character who is hurt pretty badly by global mechanical changes. Characters being able to jump (which often leads into an aerial, up smash, up b, or grab) out of tech rolls hurts his punish game—which is a huge part what makes Captain Falcon good—because it's largely based on reacting to tech rolls. Then the shield thing hurts him since he spends a decent amount of time in shield because he's really not very good if he isn't punishing the opponent. So without even touching Captain Falcon's character-specific stuff, you've already hindered him as a character because you nerfed a huge part of what made him a good character.

Then on top of that you give him Ganon's landing lag on aerials? That's not even the only additional nerf you gave to a character you already really hurt with mechanical changes! The only things you buffed about Falcon is stuff that are either situational or not even very good in the first place. That's what I mean when I say you aren't putting enough thought into this. This is only one character that you did a horrible job balancing because you didn't take into account the implications of a global change to the game's mechanics. So many changes that you made don't even make any sense. They certainly don't help balance the characters!

Think about how those mechanical changes really affect characters. You added a very, very powerful defensive option for characters with good spacing aerials, but at the same time you made a powerful offensive option for characters who benefit from tech chasing a lot worse. As long as you don't think about things like that, your characters are not going to be balanced. That's bad if your goal is to balance the cast.

 

[Aerros11]

Magic...have you even tried playing the game to be saying such theories?

 

[tatatat0]

Sounds like we have some projection or something going on. None of my comments was biased. Don't get so defensive.

Your mod is never going to be good if you deny criticism and condescend to the people criticizing your work. I never said there was a problem with adding new stuff like being able to jump out of tech rolls; I said that adding a change that drastic will dramatically change how a lot of characters play. I feel like you aren't accounting for this new, powerful defensive option you added when you're adding changes to your mod.

Take Captain Falcon as an example of a character who is hurt pretty badly by global mechanical changes. Characters being able to jump (which often leads into an aerial, up smash, up b, or grab) out of tech rolls hurts his punish game—which is a huge part what makes Captain Falcon good—because it's largely based on reacting to tech rolls. Then the shield thing hurts him since he spends a decent amount of time in shield because he's really not very good if he isn't punishing the opponent. So without even touching Captain Falcon's character-specific stuff, you've already hindered him as a character because you nerfed a huge part of what made him a good character.

Then on top of that you give him Ganon's landing lag on aerials? That's not even the only additional nerf you gave to a character you already really hurt with mechanical changes! The only things you buffed about Falcon is stuff that are either situational or not even very good in the first place. That's what I mean when I say you aren't putting enough thought into this. This is only one character that you did a horrible job balancing because you didn't take into account the implications of a global change to the game's mechanics. So many changes that you made don't even make any sense. They certainly don't help balance the characters!

Think about how those mechanical changes really affect characters. You added a very, very powerful defensive option for characters with good spacing aerials, but at the same time you made a powerful offensive option for characters who benefit from tech chasing a lot worse. As long as you don't think about things like that, your characters are not going to be balanced. That's bad if your goal is to balance the cast.

I made some changes in my mod because of increased shieldstun falcon would be even more vulnerable in his shield. I completely revamped his up-smash to have his itemthrowup(or w/e its called) animation making it more like his smash64 up-smash. looks like

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/kJOj6X2.gif

its stats are

Spoiler

"
Falcon’s new up-smash deals (13/10damage (45BKB 103KBG/38BKB 97KB ))and (10/8 (30BKB 91KBG/30BKB 86KB ) ) for the first and second sets of hitboxes respectively.
" (directly taken from changelog)

Pretty much what I did was because he was even worse in his shield I gave him a viable option to get out of it. If you make a global change, it effects each character in different ways. Fox could prob waveshine out of any techchase with the jump out of tech change you made.
Edit: I quoted MagicScrumpy's post because it was relevant to my post.

 

[zankyou]

MagicScrumpy

You're saying that nerfing Falco's lasers and changing the non-skill-based move that is tech-chasing is enough for you to question the entire mod?

I changed Falco's lasers to ground flinch only by the way.
And I added skill to tech-chasing so that it's not just "Let me chase these 40 frames of helplessness" because it really is mainly the fast characters that can tech chase best (top tiers) and platform tech chasing is shooting fish in a barrel.

I'm not certain many are aware, but there is something called a tier list in ssbm. Tiers indicate inherently that an imbalance is present across characters.

EDIT: If you have any actual suggestions for me that are not bias, then please let me know.

You have to remember that there is multiple forms of balance depending on the level of the players. For competitive play I strongly disagree with most of the changes but if its just you and your friends where neither of you can tech chase it doesnt hurt the balance. Until youre at a level where you can comfortably move around falcos lasers, the lasers are incredibly broken. You have to keep in mind the audience that this is for.

 

[Aerros11]

I made some changes in my mod because of increased shieldstun falcon would be even more vulnerable in his shield. I completely revamped his up-smash to have his itemthrowup(or w/e its called) animation making it more like his smash64 up-smash. looks like

Spoiler

http://i.imgur.com/kJOj6X2.gif

its stats are

Spoiler

"
Falcon’s new up-smash deals (13/10damage (45BKB 103KBG/38BKB 97KB ))and (10/8 (30BKB 91KBG/30BKB 86KB ) ) for the first and second sets of hitboxes respectively.
" (directly taken from changelog)

Pretty much what I did was because he was even worse in his shield I gave him a viable option to get out of it. If you make a global change, it effects each character in different ways. Fox could prob waveshine out of any techchase with the jump out of tech change you made.
Edit: I quoted MagicScrumpy's post because it was relevant to my post.

Working backwards, Tat...I made shining balanced as well so that would be fine (shine out of tech).

Granted it's not perfect, but the idea was also to derank the s-tiers into high a-tiers so yes you'll see more "nerfs" to one character than to others. What you're talking about is compensation in an attempt to show no net changes.

 

[Aerros11]

You have to remember that there is multiple forms of balance depending on the level of the players. For competitive play I strongly disagree with most of the changes but if its just you and your friends where neither of you can tech chase it doesnt hurt the balance. Until youre at a level where you can comfortably move around falcos lasers, the lasers are incredibly broken. You have to keep in mind the audience that this is for.

I play netplay often and I do tech chase and I've seen what tech chasing can do with faster characters. It's not about my skill level bias; it's about noticing that tech chasing is just shooting fish in a barrel. If you don't agree with that then I can't convince you.

EDIT: I posted this on reddit btw and all I got were purists saying melee mainly comprises of 8-12 characters and all this garbage about preserving s-ranks. I expect the same here.

 

[zankyou]

I play netplay often and I do tech chase and I've seen what tech chasing can do with faster characters. It's not about my skill level bias; it's about noticing that tech chasing is just shooting fish in a barrel. If you don't agree with that then I can't convince you.

EDIT: I posted this on reddit btw and all I got were purists saying melee mainly comprises of 8-12 characters and all this garbage about preserving s-ranks. I expect the same here.

Tech chasing was just an example because its what magic used. But saying tech chasing is just shoot fish in a barrel is a bit extreme. Tech chasing isnt a 50/50 gamble. Say falcon can cover 3/4 options. It requires both players to pick up on patterns and mixup appropriately which is actually incredibly hard. If you're just guessing then its a different story though.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

And here you are rejecting my criticism again. I soundly explained why at least one character in your mod is extremely bad. I could go into the game and confirm exactly what I said, but I don't think that's necessary. If you really want me to, I'll try it out, but I really doubt it'll change my opinions at all.

Instead of asking me if I've even tried playing your patch, you should ask yourself why you think the changes you made are good. Are you actively testing this with other people, or are you just beating up on CPUs and moving around the stage and writing off everything that looks okay there as good?

Your balance patch makes some extremely questionable decisions for equally questionable reasons. Giving Falcon Ganon's landing lag since and only since you evened up the spacies' landing lag makes no sense. Are you doing that because they're clones (though clones can be and are drastically different characters)? That's the only reason I can think of, and it's a pretty baseless reason.

If you want to make a balance patch, don't fix what isn't broken. A whole lot of the changes you made to high-tier characters make it sound like you're changing things you don't like about the viable cast. For example, you made rest completely horrible for no reason. You changed it from an insane-risk, insane-reward move to an insane-risk, awful-reward move.

Your buffs to a lot of the characters also make absolutely no sense. Why would you need to make Fox's phantasm a meteor? That's a completely unnecessary change.

Just from looking at the balance changes, I can tell you did a really, really lazy job on this mod. So many characters that could use changes (e.g. Yoshi, Pikachu) are completely unchanged. You also nerfed a ton of characters into the ground (e.g. Jigglypuff, Falcon). Then when we get to the low tiers, the characters you actually need to change for a balance patch because they're actually terrible, there are very few changes outside of being subject to the new damage formula. The new damage formula and being able to jump out of tech rolls are not going to help those characters because it doesn't fix their problems. It would be like extending Mewtwo's recovery. Yeah, it's a buff, but it doesn't accomplish anything.

This honestly looks like you took SD Remix and made it bad.

 

[Aerros11]

Tech chasing was just an example because its what magic used. But saying tech chasing is just shoot fish in a barrel is a bit extreme. Tech chasing isnt a 50/50 gamble. Say falcon can cover 3/4 options. It requires both players to pick up on patterns and mixup appropriately which is actually incredibly hard. If you're just guessing then its a different story though.

I'm going to continue on this topic.

"Tech chasing isn't a 50/50 gamble. Say Falcon can cover 3/4 options"
= fish in a barrel.

Mixups/patterns?!? A player can either tech roll left, right, or stationary and fast characters (if close by) can run to them and assault them in those 40 frames of helplessness.

There isn't any sort of "mixing up" at all.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

You still need to take into consideration how much that change affects the game when coming up with individual character changes.

 

[Aerros11]

MagicScrumpy you're still talking from theories; these theories are also from a lack of understanding of the patch notes.

Did you read that this is a mod from SDRemix? Did you know that SDRemix buffed everyone except most of the s-tiers?
Did you know that the s-tiers have advantages not present in the rest of the cast and that they needed a nerf to bring them more in line?

EDIT: The last pieces of the puzzle are knockback and knock back growth. They appear fine but more play testing is needed to be certain. All other complaints stem from people either not trying the game or from s-tier bias.

 

[zankyou]

I'm going to continue on this topic.

"Tech chasing isn't a 50/50 gamble. Say Falcon can cover 3/4 options"
= fish in a barrel.

Mixups/patterns?!? A player can either tech roll left, right, or stationary and fast characters (if close by) can run to them and assault them in those 40 frames of helplessness.

There isn't any sort of "mixing up" at all.

You realize that if this were true falcon would kill all characters from 1 grab.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

MagicScrumpy you're still talking from theories; these theories are also from a lack of understanding of the patch notes.

Did you read that this is a mod from SDRemix? Did you know that SDRemix buffed everyone except most of the s-tiers?
Did you know that the s-tiers have advantages not present in the rest of the cast and that they needed a nerf to bring them more in line?

I was reading through your patch notes while writing up both of my long posts to ensure that I wouldn't be wrong. It's not that I'm not reading; it's that your balance patch sucks. You very clearly understand absolutely nothing about how to balance a game.

I agree that a good balance patch needs to nerf the S-tiers because they're too good. However, the nerfs you're applying to the characters are garbage.

And instead of just saying "You're wrong!" and acting condescending, you could try actually arguing. I've given you a ton of examples of horrible design decisions you made for you to argue if you really feel so strongly that they're healthy for balance.

 

[Aerros11]

You realize that if this were true falcon would kill all characters from 1 grab.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't take a genius to move left or right with a fast character.
I also never stated that tech chasing was 100% successful but what we agreed upon was that it does have a high success probability.

 

[Aerros11]

I was reading through your patch notes while writing up both of my long posts to ensure that I wouldn't be wrong. It's not that I'm not reading; it's that your balance patch sucks. You very clearly understand absolutely nothing about how to balance a game.

I agree that a good balance patch needs to nerf the S-tiers because they're too good. However, the nerfs you're applying to the characters are garbage.

But how can you say that without even playing the game XD? Have you even balanced a game yourself to be saying such things from experience?

EDIT: And it IS that you're not reading. Otherwise you wouldn't have said half the things you did. o__O'|l the hell.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

If you think that I can't tell from reading the patch notes and thinking a little bit that you made a whole lot of characters completely useless and that you didn't help the low tiers at all, then I don't know what to say about you.

 

[Aerros11]

If I walked into this thread, I'd be listening to the person who actually tried the game rather than the person who:

1) Didn't read all the patch notes

2) Didn't even play the game

EDIT: If you try it and have relevant and reasonable feedback, I will listen and discuss. But for now, you are only saying theories which have proven your lack of being informed.

EDIT2: MagicScrumpy The FIRST thing you did was quote an invalid post of mine about Falco's old laser nerf even though the FIRST thing you should have read were the most recent patch notes ............

My face: '____' '|l

 

[zankyou]

it doesn't take a genius to move left or right with a fast character

But the point is that there is much more that goes through players minds then left or right and the success rate is dependent on the players since neither are truly random. If neither characters are capable of picking up on patterns then devolves into just picking left or right but that goes back into the level of the players deciding the balance.

 

[Aerros11]

But the point is that there is much more that goes through players minds then left or right and the success rate is dependent on the players since neither are truly random. If neither characters are capable of picking up on patterns then devolves into just picking left or right but that goes back into the level of the players deciding the balance.

I'm going to clarify, with dash dancing on fast characters, choosing left or right to successfully follow a tech roll is incredibly easy. This ease is exaggerated when the victim is teching on a platform. In order to actually put some skill into tech chasing I made it so that the victim isn't just a fish in a barrel for 40 frames.

EDIT: Whether or not tech chasing is difficult for you is another matter but it clearly is not for other s-tier users.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

If I walked into this thread, I'd be listening to the person who actually tried the game rather than the person who:

1) Didn't read all the patch notes

2) Didn't even play the game

EDIT: If you try it and have relevant and reasonable feedback, I will listen and discuss. But for now, you are only saying theories which have proven your lack of being informed.

EDIT2: MagicScrumpy The FIRST thing you did was quote an invalid post of mine about Falco's old laser nerf even though the FIRST thing you should have read were the most recent patch notes ............

My face: '____' '|l

Try reading my other posts. There's plenty of good criticism for you to look at.

Sorry I didn't respond earlier. I tried out the mod with my brother. It's just as bad as I thought it would be. I still agree with everything I've said.

 

[Aerros11]

Alright and who are your mains?

 

[Sickolas]

this thread gave me aids

 

[MagicScrumpy]

I tested every character that I mentioned was bad. I really hope you didn't expect me to actually put enough time into it to pick at least one main. If you did, don't be too disappointed.

The character I played around with the most was Falcon because I put the most time into discussing how you made him into a very bad character. I found all the fundamental flaws that I said were there, and as expected, I found nothing that makes up for those flaws.

 

[Aerros11]

MagicScrumpy I asked because it doesn't even look like you play vanilla enough to even have a good main character with the way you're talking.

And what you want me to do is retain his title as an s-tier while still nerfing him. That's just not happening.

So all in all it appears I received balance advice from:

- an intermediately skilled gamer

- who didn't read all the patch notes

- and has bias for s-tiers.

That type of advice isn't welcome here.
If you don't like the game, then you don't like it.

 

[Sickolas]

MagicScrumpy I asked because it doesn't even look like you play vanilla enough to even have a good main character with the way you're talking.

HOLY **** IM DEAD LOL