SSBM | Shield Breaker (v1.18) - - May 19, 2018

[MagicScrumpy]

MagicScrumpy I asked because it doesn't even look like you play vanilla enough to even have a good main character with the way you're talking.

And what you want me to do is retain his title as an s-tier while still nerfing him. That's just not happening.

So all in all it appears I received balance advice from:

- an intermediately skilled gamer

- who didn't read all the patch notes

- and has bias for s-tiers.

That type of advice isn't welcome here.
If you don't like the game, then you don't like it.

Imagine not being able to make one post without flaming someone.

I've been playing this game competitively for three years, and I've been actively TASing and modding it for almost a year now. I definitely at least somewhat know what I'm talking about. I'm sorry that you are so frustrated with my valid criticism that you have to assume wrong things about me to justify your rejecting it.

I never said that you should keep S-tier characters as S-tier while still nerfing them; I said that it's dumb to fix what isn't broken. I really don't care how good Falcon ends up being in your patch, but if he's as useless as he is right now then your balance patch is laughably bad.

First, I had to tell you I played the game because critical thinking wasn't enough. Then, you told me that my opinion doesn't count because I'm too bad at Melee to be able to form a proper opinion on your mod. I think the problem is that you're just unwilling to accept criticism and not that the criticism I'm giving you is bad. And if you're going to post your work online, you'll get criticism. Rejecting it is completely counter-productive.

If you're ever up for some actual debate on your balance patch, I'm down.

 

[Aerros11]

Listen, I've been playing competitively since release and have an eye for what needs to be changed.
You say don't fix what isn't broken, but you don't even know what was broken to begin with.

So no, I am not down for an actual debate unless you actually have unbiased experience as an exceptional player.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

****ing lol

You actually can't go a post without implying I'm bad at the game.

 

[Aerros11]

MagicScrumpy , any time you want a challenge on vanilla Netplay, let me know.

 

[ToonSmeef]

MagicScrumpy I asked because it doesn't even look like you play vanilla enough to even have a good main character with the way you're talking.

>>>>>>>>>>https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZbvh4hfx6o

 

[MagicScrumpy]

And now you want to prove your opinion is better by besting me in a good ol' game of "net of play" because you just don't want to accept criticism.

I can't understand your thought process.

At least educate this oh so bad player on why being able to jump out of tech roll is a good change, and tell me how Falcon is even usable in this mod.

 

[JacobARF]

MagicScrumpy I asked because it doesn't even look like you play vanilla enough to even have a good main character with the way you're talking.

And what you want me to do is retain his title as an s-tier while still nerfing him. That's just not happening.

So all in all it appears I received balance advice from:

- an intermediately skilled gamer

- who didn't read all the patch notes

- and has bias for s-tiers.

That type of advice isn't welcome here.
If you don't like the game, then you don't like it.

Hahaha, seems like someone doesn't know who he's talking with

 

[Sickolas]

Netplay

hey i asked my good friend rolf what he thought about netplay as well as this mod and all he sent me was this

 

[MrLul]

MagicScrumpy Give up, you can't get through to some close minded people.

edit: nvm lol

 

[Aerros11]

- NETPLAY is one of the best methods for determining your experience, and therefore, if your opinion on balancing is balanced.

- TECH ROLL marth, fox, falco, sheik, and falcon are all amazing at tech chasing because they are all fast and agile. You will notice that slower characters are worse at tech chasing. These two observations solidify the point being that tech chasing is abusable by faster characters, and that it really isn't a method of outplaying the opponent but rather outclassing. These observations change vs. an enemy who techs on a platform (and thus has little space to move laterally). Tech chasing becomes even more easier for faster characters in the platform tech example.

- FALCON is supposed to be the clone source for Ganondorf. But Falcon clearly out performs Ganondorf. Ganon is supposed to have power understandably while Falcon mains in speed. However the first thing curious about s-tiers are that they outperform supposedly powerful characters in both speed AND power. I also noticed that, during my netplays, Falcon was mainly amazing because he hardly suffered any aerial land-lag and that his Fair would kill Ganon at 80% meanwhile Ganon's Fair would kill Falcon at 100+%. Because the landing lag for spacies are the same, I chose to make similar changes to these clones (Ganon and Falcon); I also chose to balance his absurdly powerful knee. It's a go-to signature Falcon move for a reason, and I found that reason.

These Falcon changes are noted in the patch notes and if you had read that, it would have saved me an explanation is why I have said the things I have said to you.

EDIT: ToonSmeef , his targets made very nooby mistakes and those stock differences were curious. That is not to ignore the fact that he does indeed have some combos in 'em.

 

[Agent7300]

hahahaha cool mod dude i love it been playing it all day with my dog tech jump is fair and balanced how long did it take you to make the mod?
"With that said, if you want to be a true competitive gamer that does not rely
on randomly assigned damage values or random elements such as stage hazards,
randomly generated turnip/hammer pulls, chain grabbing availability based on your random
opponent's character choice, that is tired of getting outclassed instead of outplayed, then this is the game for you:"
quote above truly shows how intelligent and well versed at Super Smash Bros. Melee you are man your so cool i wish i was you

 

[Xxaz_v]

I'm going to have to agree with scrumpy on this one. Most of the nerfs in this mod are extremely harsh and aren't going to make it on "Fox News: Fair and Balanced" anytime soon. Jigglypuff's rest "buff" is really funny to imagine, and Falcon is unplayable.

It seems that you don't have any understanding of balance and won't take any criticism. If you're going to be stubborn, then you might as well not work on this mod.

 

[Sickolas]

- NETPLAY is one of the best methods for determining your experience, and therefore, if your opinion on balancing is balanced.

 

[Aerros11]

Agent7300 All I read was "I'm a fox main" and "I'm a metaknight main"

I'd prefer if this thread had the least amount of trolling possible.

 

[JacobARF]

Agent7300 All I read was "I'm a fox main" and "I'm a metaknight main"

I'd prefer if this thread had the least amount of trolling possible.

All I read here is "I'm a Ganondorf main, let's nerf Falcon to oblivion just because I can't keep up with my Ganondorf"

I'd prefer if this thread had less close minded persons.

 

[Sickolas]

Aerros11 I would prefer if everyone who talked about melee knew what they were talking about but you can't always get what you want

 

[Aerros11]

Xxaz_v

It says that you are a Marth main. If this is correct, have you tried out Marth?
I feel as though his nair could use some tweaking but I'm not really sure (edit: and that his UpB could use a bit more knockback). Do you have any thoughts to share on this or any other of Marth's moves?

 

[Agent7300]

Agent7300 All I read was "I'm a fox main" and "I'm a metaknight main"

I'd prefer if this thread had the least amount of trolling possible.

i wasnt trolling dude i love your mod dont insult my main geez you cant take criticism or compliments your a wackjob

EDIT: i know fox in sm4sh and ssb64 is overpowered as **** but dont bully me you play ganon in pm lol i dont want to be mean though

 

[Kelkador]

...marth, fox, falco, sheik, and falcon are all amazing at tech chasing because they are all fast and agile. You will notice that slower characters are worse at tech chasing...

Umm, yeah. That's a weakness of that character. If you wanted to balance the game then you should make weaknesses of characters noticeable, as well as their strengths. Because if a character is "a jack of all trades" that character can't be balanced, as they are either good at everything (S-Tier) or mediocre at everything (Garbage tier) and there is no way to get around that.

 

[Aerros11]

i wasnt trolling dude i love your mod dont insult my main geez you cant take criticism or compliments your a wackjob

Honestly, I'm not compatible with sarcasm. If you're being earnest, then the gesture was lost somewhere in translation.

Kelkador , tech chasing is a main strength of the faster s-tiers and therefore a very important almost privilege. It's not something to be interpreted as a weakness of the majority of the cast. Something like that is known as an unfair imbalance.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

What about lower-tiered characters that benefit a lot from punishing tech rolls? I'm pretty sure one of them is your main BTW. Ganon's tech option coverage on platforms is crazy. I'm assuming you already knew that since you main him and you've been playing competitively for 14 years.

 

[Agent7300]

i was being completely 100% honest i think the mod is great and should actually be the new standard sorry i come across as dishonest sometimes

 

[Sickolas]

HeyGuys sorry to go off-topic like this but it's a little important

can we keep wizzy in the top 20 for BTS? Thanks https://smash.gg/tournament/smash-summit/voting/1028

 

[Aerros11]

What about lower-tiered characters that benefit a lot from punishing tech rolls?

I'm pretty sure one of them is your main BTW.

About tech rolling, is punishing a recovery from an attack via a tech roll really something a competitive player should be proud of anyway? Are you the kind of person that kicks a man when he's down?

Agent7300 oh I'm really sorry then >__<'|l I'm on like face-down defense mode here XD
If you do have any criticism to share that is reasonable and not biased, I would like to know about that as well.

Sickolas o__o'|l

 

[The Big Wang Theory]

About tech rolling, is punishing a recovery from an attack via a tech roll really something a competitive player should be proud of anyway? Are you the kind of person that kicks a man when he's down?

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD

 

[Doq]

Uh. Melee Minus anybody?

 

[Agent7300]

You guys dont get it, but i do. everyone in this thread is ganging up on the OP and its not right. See i get him.
I feel like i know him, we both are similar in a way.
I feel that Tech Jumps were a necessary and very helpful addition to the game, i dont understand why everyone else doesn't like it. IMO they are all salty that they cant make melee mods. especially magicscrumpy.

Aerros, you and me are the same
we both spend all day on smashladder, where true skill lies imo if you cant cut in on netplay, how can you even compete when ou get to the real thing? In fact, i spend so much time on smash ladder that i got banned from the site until November 2nd because a site moderator got pretty salty i beat him, its whatever though

Falco lasers are insanely dumb. i am a spacie main, so i would know. there is absolutely no counter to falco lasers period.
Jump out of tech roll not only allows for new and diverse hype combos, but also an option to escape. its honestly surprising some of the best game developers in the world (nintendo) didnt think of this. goes to show that the true fans of a game understand it more then the actual devs.

I am also glad that ganon's spikes were removed. now ganon mains will actually play the game optimally instead of going for style which is why ganon hasnt won a major yet

Finally, Jiggs rest healing was a good idea. it really evens the playing field considering fox lasers are completely unavoidable in the matchup. great mod.
Personally, i rate 9/10 because nothing is perfect. i have only played it for a few hours so i havent found any serious flaws, but its melee. its pretty much perfect.

 

[DrButteFatman]

MagicScrumpy , any time you want a challenge on vanilla Netplay, let me know.

***** shut the **** up

 

[Aerros11]

***** shut the **** up

"...Becky"

_____________________

You guys dont get it, but i do. everyone in this thread is ganging up .........................
Personally, i rate 9/10 because nothing is perfect. i have only played it for a few hours so i havent found any serious flaws, but its melee. its pretty much perfect.

I wish more people shared that opinion....it would allow for final tweaking of this game.

_____________________

Uh. Melee Minus anybody?

After our matches btw, did you still feel like the DownB spikes were necessary? I don't think I asked you afterwards.

_____________________

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA OH MY GOD

???
Does it make sense for you to be able to continue punishing via tech chasing.
1 opening should NEVER grant a great player 80+ damage as an example.

 

[Xxaz_v]

Personally, not only do I prefer the air, but I do think that Marth's UpB should be a reliable and safe kill move OOS.

 

[Sickolas]

you should give every character one button shine oos and 3 frame jump squats

 

[The Big Wang Theory]

???
Does it make sense for you to be able to continue punishing via tech chasing.

Yes.

1 opening should NEVER grant a great player 80+ damage as an example.

No.

 

[Myougi]

1 opening should NEVER grant a great player 80+ damage as an example.

One opening should grant a well-versed player a stock granted they react to their defensive options (ex: Directional Influence).

Falco lasers are insanely dumb. i am a spacie main, so i would know. there is absolutely no counter to falco lasers period.

Falco lasers are kind of dumb, I'll agree with that much. They are Falco's main approaching tool, but with him being such a glass cannon that's about all he has to approach. Falcos will traditionally lose when they are forced to approach.

There are obvious counters to Falco's lasers, the main global one being power-shields. Of course, most of the cast has their own way of dealing with them (Samus has her missiles, for example). A great deal of low-tier characters don't have a great way of getting around lasers, and in a proper balance patch they should be given an option to deal with them. Nerfing a character's attribute such as lasers to directly benefit a small group of characters is impossible; you have to approach each character on an individual basis.

 

[Agent7300]

Aerros my take on it is that these people cant see the fact that vanilla melee is a flawed game, i mean they've been playing it for a long time as have i and we all love it. but the game is unbalanced as hell. your mod however, fixes the game entirely from what i've seen so far. Not only is it salt that they aren't great mod creators like you, its nostalgia. people naturally dont like change whether or not its better or worse (changes in this pack are fantastic and actually give melee a future as an esport btw) so you have drastically changed something we are all accustomed to. some take it better then others. usually the ones that take it like i have are the more level-headed and intelligent. i can accept change. a good change.

 

[Sickolas]

hey can you make it so dk can jump cancel his down b

 

[Aerros11]

Personally, not only do I prefer the air, but I do think that Marth's UpB should be a reliable and safe kill move OOS.

You mean as good as Link's UpB was out of shield, because I honestly think I over-nerfed Link's UpB as well. I'll start patching them now. What about Marth's Nair (those were my two main concerns about him)?

you should give every character one button shine oos and 3 frame jump squats

And a knee, and a rest, and a wobble, and a 20frame spike dair, and a stitch turnip.

Melee DLC Collector's Edition

Yes.

No.

Your statements are contradictory then because tech chasing leads to those extended combos which lead to those 1 opening = 80 damage situations.

 

[Sickolas]

And a knee, and a rest, and a wobble, and a 20frame spike dair, and a stitch turnip.

Melee DLC Collector's Edition
.

yeah youre right actually we dont need that because i can just invincible tech roll towards you and cancel it directly into s kill move or kill confirm thats a lot better

 

[TheClamFace]

Lmao, I had to make an account just to reply to this.
First, lets address your attitude, OP- you have consecutively ignored and been rude to anyone who has disagreed with you. The only people you had a relevant discussion with were those who agreed. First off, if you aren't willing to accept criticism, why are you asking for it? You have said that anyone who disagreed was "biased", when this is a better description of you.
Secondly, let's address your thought process. Nerfing all the top tiers won't bring the bad characters up, it will bring everyone down and make the game overall less fun and more boring. Plus, why would anyone play your mod in the first place when their character is either horribly nerfed or just as bad?
If you want "unbiased" criticism then I will say to just delete your mod and start over- but this time, focus on buffing characters instead of nerfing good ones. Also don't respond so harshly to people who disagree with you.

 

[MagicScrumpy]

I would consider globally nerfing damage then. If you can't deal as much damage, your followups won't do as much damage! It's as simple as that!

 

[Aerros11]

hey can you make it so dk can jump cancel his down b

I didn't think of that, but it makes sense. I'll see if I can change it's interruption timer. When do you think is the best time to interrupt it: after the first hitbox or after the second (slap)?

________

One opening should grant a well-versed player a stock granted they react to their defensive options (ex: Directional Influence).


Falco lasers are kind of dumb, I'll agree with that much. They are Falco's main approaching tool, but with him being such a glass cannon that's about all he has to approach. Falcos will traditionally lose when they are forced to approach.

There are obvious counters to Falco's lasers, the main global one being power-shields. Of course, most of the cast has their own way of dealing with them (Samus has her missiles, for example). A great deal of low-tier characters don't have a great way of getting around lasers, and in a proper balance patch they should be given an option to deal with them. Nerfing a character's attribute such as lasers to directly benefit a small group of characters is impossible; you have to approach each character on an individual basis.

A good player can still be helpless with how ridiculous combos can get from the s-tiers even with SDI and DI. I made it so that Falco's lasers can be approached by jumping (which in theory should also benefit falco). Even then I think Falco's knockback on his other moves can be tweaked in the current build (as in increased). If you're a Falco main, please let me know if anything else of his should be looked into more specifically.

________

Aerros my take on it is that these people cant see the fact that vanilla melee is a flawed game, i mean they've been playing it for a long time as have i and we all love it. but the game is unbalanced as hell. your mod however, fixes the game entirely from what i've seen so far. Not only is it salt that they aren't great mod creators like you, its nostalgia. people naturally dont like change whether or not its better or worse (changes in this pack are fantastic and actually give melee a future as an esport btw) so you have drastically changed something we are all accustomed to. some take it better then others. usually the ones that take it like i have are the more level-headed and intelligent. i can accept change. a good change.

I wouldn't be so fast as to generalize, but after the feedback I got from purists at reddit I'm definitely tempted to agree with you on the general state of human adaptation. Btw, I think I over-nerfed Fox's upAir and maybe another of his moves. I don't really want to extract information from you so thanks so far for the support~