SSBM | Shield Breaker (v1.18) - - May 19, 2018

What does SKILL mean to you in a fighting game?

  • outplaying your opponent assuming both characters are balanced

    Votes: 36 69.2%
  • outclassing your opponent assuming both characters are not balanced

    Votes: 16 30.8%

  • Total voters
    52

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#1
SSBM: Shield Breaker
— The Most Balanced Melee, to date.
Shield Breaker is a modified version of SD Remix

(ver: 1.18 as of 5/19/2018)


In Vanilla Melee, high tier characters possessed faster, more damaging, and more visceral moves than lower tier characters' slower attacks. Additionally, down angled moves — like Falco's d-Air and Marth's d-Air — guaranteed aerial kills out of stage (SPIKE), while slow attacks — like Falcon's d-Air and Ganon's d-Air — allowed enemies to recover (METEOR). This inherently unbalanced logic has been unquestioned until now. If you want to be a true competitive gamer that does not rely on randomly assigned damage values or stage hazards, that is tired of getting outclassed instead of outplayed, then this is the game for you.

For the content below, suggestions are welcome
Thank you to everyone who supported the modifications leading to this point.

~Aerros

___________________________________________________​

Main Changes
HUD
DISABLED: Timer, Off-Screen Magnifier, "Ready, Go, Game"
(Announcer Still Counts Final 5 Seconds of Match)



Shield Damage
Multiplier is now 1.5x vs 1.0x


Damage Balance
Damage is now equal to frames needed to attack + 3 points
Knockback changes compensated
(divided appropriately based on multi-hits, rapid jabs, etc)
Before, damage did not make any sense​
EX| Before
a 1 frame Falco shine did 8 damage and 8 shield damage
a 4 frame Marth Fair did 10 damage and 10 shield damage
a 3 frame Ganon Jab did 7 damage and 7 shield damage
a 52 frame Falcon Punch did 27 damage and 27 shield damage

EX| After: frames needed to attack + 3 = new damage (max 30)
a 5 frame Falco shine does 8 damage and 8 shield damage (it already reflects projectiles)
a 4 frame Marth Fair does 7 damage and ~10 shield damage
a 3 frame Ganon Jab does 6 damage and 9 shield damage
a 52 frame Falcon Punch does 30 damage and ~82 shield damage
(52 frame move would be 55 dmg, but max is 30)

(Shield dmg = 55 x 1.5 = ~82 sdmg)
Projectile damage is roughly untouched
Jab damage divided if multiple jabs exist


Meteors
Except for Yoshi and Bowser, all previous spikes are now meteors.


New Mechanics
Tech Roll Jump [Achilles]
Press Jump at frame 20 or higher during stationary techs or tech rolls to jump

Grab Infinite Removal [glook]
Any attack knocks opponent out of a grab when the grip has run out

Reverse Aerial Rush [Achilles]
Switch facing direction if jumping out of TurnRun

All Characters Can Wall Jump [Y.S]
Traditional tournament infinite stalling rules apply

Dual 1v1 Mode [Achilles]
Players will only be able to hurt other players set to the same team color
Turn Friendly Fire to OFF and begin a Team Battle to Enable

Ledge Invincibility Attrition [glook]
Ledge invincibility decays and regenerates similarly to shields

V-Cancel (success plays sound) [Achilles]
Reduce knock-back velocity in select scenarios by 5%
Press the Shield Button while Airborne within 2 frames of colliding with a hit box to activate.
Shield Drop [UnclePunch]
Slowly press down on a platform to drop; quickly press to spot dodge

Grounded/Aerial Retreating Glide Toss [rmn]

Grounded: Use A or Z to interrupt the first 6 frames of a roll with a left or right item throw
Aerial: Use the C-stick or A/Z button during the first 3 frames of an air dodge to throw an item with partially conserved momentum


Removed Disjointed Hits and Grabs
Disjointed/over-extended boxes changed to match more the size of the grabbing/attack object


Randomness Removed
All attacks which relied on randomness now do average damage.
Peaches turnips now do average damage (8)
Game & Watches Hammer now does equal damage (19)
Luigi's Side-B max charge distance = Misfire distance, occurs at frame 52
Self-Damage for Pichu and Roy removed
Chain Grabbing removed for notorious characters like Marth, Roy, Ganon, & Sheik



STEP 1: Download GCR and Root Folder
STEP 2: Open GCR -> Click Root (next to Image, Options, Help) -> Click Save
STEP 3: This will open a window prompting you to name and save the ISO before it's made. Name your file and find a home for it. Once you click Save, it will look like nothing happened.
STEP 4: Click File -> Rebuild: This will create your ISO
STEP 5: READY; GO!

___________________________________________________​
S-tier Deranking
(see http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/ for additional changes)


- Fox
-Shine Hitbox on frame 5, removed intangibility
-Laser dmg 2vs3
+ Can act out of Phantasm
-/+Air Phantasm meteor
+Weighs 73 vs 75
+Aerial laser can be fired at half speed by holding the z button

- Falco
-Shine Hitbox on frame 5, removed intangibility
-Dair is now a Meteor (angle 275) vs Spike (angle 290)
-Laser leading hitbox cause no flinch to aerial opponents, dmg 3.
+ Can act out of Phantasm
Jumping into or landing on the side top or bottom side of a laser will still cause aerial flinch.
+Aerial laser can be fired at half speed by holding the z button

- Sheik
-Dthrow angle 60vs80, KB and KBG increased
-Ftilt knocks back farther
-Dair is a meteor

- Marth
+ Shield Breaker balanced
1+25+25+11+5 = 62 frames for full charge
-Dtilt spam reduced
-Max air vel. 0.85 vs 0.90
-Dair is now a Meteor vs Spike (angle 275 vs 290)
-Suffers from balanced grabbing
-Fair KB all 42vs42,30,20,20| KBG 90vs70 angle 361vs87 increased
-Nair only hits ahead of Marth (6,7,15,16,20,21)
Body hitbox removed
-Utilt only attacks above Marth (7,8,9,10)
-Dair only attacks below Marth (6,7,8) vs (6-9)
-Bair only attacks behind Marth (7,8,9)vs(7-11)
Fair only attacks ah---- oh wait it already does that
-/+Weighs 85 vs 87
-/+Tip mostly differs by KB.
-Uthrow KB and KBG increased
Blade swipe graphic now appears 1 frame before hit boxes and disappears when hitboxes end
- Jiggs
- Rest DMG 4vs28, now HEALS 20 health
- Suffers from Precision Hitboxes (none disjointed)
+ Running speed increased
+ Weight doubled to 120 (Bowser weighs 118)
-/+ Model size and hitboxes ~10% larger.

+ shield size larger as well
+ Normal Jump height matches Kirby's
+ Wall Jump vertical increased

- Dair balanced
-/+ Rest more in line with Vanilla but kills at later percentages

+ only heals self by 20%
+Shield Break Initial Velocity 2.5vs10 (to match Kirby)
- Peach
- F/B-Throw KBG nerfed
+ SideB range increased and recoils forwards
-/+Averaged out Turnip Damage, No sword, No bombs 8 dmg
+ Peach F-Smash Angles Determine Type
-/+Single Hit Dsmash

- Captain Falcon
-Aerial Landing Lag matches Ganon
The Aerial Landing Lags for spacies are the same, so too will be Cpt and Ganon
-Sweet Fair(KNEE) KBG (80vs100) matches Ganon's Fair
-Uthrow KB and KBG increased
-Chest Dair hitbox removed
-Suffers from fixed UpB disjointed grab-box
+Aerial Falcon Kick angle (Meteor) 270vs361
+Ground Falcon Kick extended hitbox duration
+Falcon Punch hitbox duration extended until bird disappears
+Uair hitbox duration matches Ganon's
+Ftilt low can now edge guard
-/+ Additional Changes found here: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#falcon
- Ice Climbers
-Suffers from Grab Infinite Removal (no wobble)
+Nana is always Lvl 9 (1.02) [Achilles]

+Nana respawns after 20 seconds
+Solo Po UpB given increased height [Achilles]
-/+ Additional Changes found here: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#ice
___________________________________________________​
Old A-Tier

- Dr. Mario
- Cape hitboxes now resemble Mario's cape
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#doc

- Pikachu

+ Side B given additional range
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#pika

- Samus

+ increased height from downB; can still Super Wave Dash
+ charge beam can be shot in 8 directions
-/+ More changes found here thanks to TheDankbanker: http://smashboards.com/threads/crazy-hand-v1-30-character-editing-program.389500/page-17
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#samus

- Ganondorf

-Aerial Wizard's Foot Meteor vs Spike (280vs290)
-SDR Intangibility during Dash Attack, removed
-New Utilt KBG reduced
-Down Throw KBG increased
-Chest Dair hitbox removed
-Suffers from fixed UpB disjointed grab-box
+SideB Aerial meteor
+Warlock punch matches Falcon Punch but has a longer duration
+Ftilt low can now edge guard
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#ganon

- Luigi

+SideB horizontal and vertical distance increased
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#luigi

- Mario

-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#mario
___________________________________________________​
Old B-Tier

- Young Link
+ Ground and Aerial Spin Attack buffed so that its best hit occurs once throughout the entirety of the move (like how Link was buffed before)
+ Bow ready state sped up
+ Smash Boomerang travels faster
+ Down Air meteor now only lasts 20 frames before converting to an upward angle
+ Increased Aerial Spin Attack mobility
-Dtilt meteor removed
+Dair speed increased, now meteor for first 20 frames
-/+ Additional Changes:
http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#young

- Link

-Dtilt meteor removed
+Aerial Spin Attack hits opponents away upon contact
+Grounded Spin Attack fixed so that blocking the first hit does not maket he entire remaining attack useless
+Dair speed increased, now meteor for first 20 frames
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#link

- Donkey Kong

-Any spikes changed to meteors
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#dk

- Yoshi

+ UpB explosion teleports with B button
+SideB given increased height
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#yoshi

- Zelda

-Up throw KBG increased
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#zelda

- Roy

-/+ similar changes as Marth
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#roy

- Mewtwo

-Any spikes changed to meteors
+ Mewtwo Can Actually Reflect Stuff [UnclePunch]
+ Mewtwo Side B Goes to Missfoot [Achilles,UnclePunch]
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#mewtwo

- Game&Watch

-/+ SideB hammer all do 19 damage and have the same KB and KBG
+ More Bacon!
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#gnw
___________________________________________________​
Old F-Tier

- Ness
+UpB Start voice removed for stealth and invincible before bolt
+ Momentum preservation on PSI magnet

+DownB given hitbox similar to Falco's shine
-/+Zero Gravity during aerial UpB

+Dtilt changed to be less of a spam move
-/+PK Fire initial bolt causes flinch but the flame does not cause flinch and is huge(just like flames do in every video game..) and lasts a long time on stage
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#ness

- Bowser

-/+Neutral B has massively extended range but does not cause flinch
+DownB is now one of the only Spikes in-game because of possible suicide
+Bair hitbox duration extended 32vs17
+USmash hitbox duration extended 28vs21, 30vs30
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#bowser

- Pichu

+Self-Damage removed
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#pichu

- Kirby

+Down Special is now a meteor
+ Weight doubled to 120 (Bowser weighs 118)
-/+
Model size and hitboxes ~10% larger.

+ shield size larger as well
- Dair balanced
+UpB is much more lethal
+ Kirby's Taunt Without Ability Gives Random Ability (the only instance where randomness feels appropriate)
-/+ Additional Changes: http://uglook.net/writing/sdremix/#kirby

___________________________________________________​

___________________________________________________​
Patches

- 1.18 (5/19/2018)

Download the patch files here https://bit.ly/2Iw45XW
and place into your root copy for 1.17
or redownload the entire up-to-date root in the main link above

- Returned Fox's Shine to Sakurai Angle
- Increased downB height for Samus; super wave dash still possible
- Reduced Young Link/Link's Aerial Spin Attacks to One Hit
- Mewtwo Can Actually Reflect Stuff [UnclePunch]
- Mewtwo Side B Goes to Missfoot [Achilles,UnclePunch]

- 1.17 (5/13/2018) Thanks to UnclePunch and tauKhan
- Added the following:

- Shield Drop Whenever Joystick Value is Correct

(slowly move stick to shield drop from a platform)
(quickly move stick to side-step)
- Kirby's Taunt Without Ability Gives Random Ability

- Press B to Explode Yoshi's Egg and Teleport w/ Momentum
- Samus 2-Frame Super Wave Dash Window
- Peach F-Smash Angles Determine Type
- Aim Charge Shot
- Fox/Falco Fall instead of SpecialFall after Side-B
- Ness Momentum Preservation on PSI Magnet
- Nana respawns after 20 seconds
- Display Animation Names for Special Moves in Developer Mode
- 1.16 (5/12/2018)
- Fixed a major issue where the 3rd player controller would not connect or function
- 1.15 (3/6/2016) KIRBY and JIGGS BUFF
- Kirby

- Model size and hitboxes ~10% larger

- shield size larger as well
- Dair balanced

- Weight doubled to 120 (Bowser weighs 118)
NOTE: CHARACTER DOES NOT FEEL HEAVIER
- Jigglypuff

- Running speed increased

- Model size and hitboxes ~10% larger.
- shield size larger as well
- Normal Jump height matches Kirby's

- Wall Jump vertical increased
- Dair balanced
- Weight doubled to 120 (Bowser weighs 118)

NOTE: CHARACTER DOES NOT FEEL HEAVIER
- Rest more in line with Vanilla but kills at later percentages

- only heals self by 20%

- 1.14 (2/25/2016) PEACH and G&W BUFF (and 1.141 misc fixes)
- Peach

- New Tool! Her Side-B (Peach Bomber) now launches her forwards in recoil allowing her to maintain pressure on an opponent especially if their DI is poor. The bomber also has a significantly longer distance and can be used to recover from off-stage.
- Fthrow buffed slightly, but not the the extent of vanilla
- Game and Watch

- More bacon! Up to 9 bacon compared to the previous 5 per skillet.
- Hammers balanced to match ideology. Each hammer now does the same knockback at 19 damage a piece.
- Marth

- restored Nair body hitboxes
- Link & Y. Link

- rebalanced dair

- 1.13 (2/15/2016) YOUNG LINK BUFF

- Young Link

- Ground and Aerial Spin Attack buffed so that its best hit occurs three times throughout the entirety of the move (like how Link was buffed before)
- Bow ready state sped up
- Smash Boomerang travels faster
- Down Air meteor now only lasts 20 frames before converting to an upward angle
- Increased Aerial Spin Attack mobility
- Bowser

- Neutral B damage +1
- Link

- Down Air meteor now only lasts 20 frames before converting to an upward angle

-1.12 (1/27/2016)

- Fox uSmash and uAir were, beforehand, purposely kept with poor KBG -- he had been over-nerfed.
This has been undone to an extent

- Pichu uThrow no longer combos as well

- Ness "gravity" experiment undone -- he has been restored to normal "gravity" (fast fall and terminal fall velocity)

-1.11 (1/22/2016)

- True KnockBackGrowth authentification thanks to knockback simulator found here:
https://ddhuet.github.io/KBSimulator/

and thanks to 404House

- Player Stocks re-enabled

-1.10 (12/16/2015)

- HUD

- DISABLED:Timer, Off-Screen Magnifier, "Ready, Go, Game"

The magnifying glass gives attackers too much information...the automatic camera homing is enough to give the attacker, but more so the defender, a general idea of where the defender is off-screen.

The announcer also voices the last 5 seconds of a round.


- Stages


- Stages given appropriate text and picture preview labels in the stage select screen

- Metroid Lab replaces Battlefield slot
- Battlefield U (from Smash 4) replaces functionality of Battlefield
- Known Issues

- Activating the Debug Menu disables the customized Revival Platform. I will add my own Debug Menu in the next patch.
- 1.098 (12/4/2015)
- Marth

- UpSmash side hitboxes launches into blade
- UpB tip knockback and growth granted to entire blade
- Sheik

- Fair granted back vMelee angle (25°)
- Link

- Made wall jumping more compatible with his Recovery Mobility
- Added Permanent Stock Dependent Revival Platforms (in preparation for Disable HUD still to come) [Achilles]



- 1.097 (12/1/2015)

- Fixed Gamecube Stage and New Omega Big Blue Additions
- Star KO Disabled (Ceiling Death results in blast, now thanks to Dan Salvato sharing his 20XXTE Code(s))
- New Result Screen Skip Code Persists With Debug Options (disables star win counts, also by Dan)
- Spoof Controller Plug Ins for All Players [Achilles]
Still to come: disable HUD, accurate stage pictures, aerial clashing(?), high jumps(?)

- 1.096 (11/28/2015)

- Shortened Duration of Kirby's Aerial Side-B hitboxes

- 1.095 (11/26/2015)

- Fused Shield Breaker and TheDankbanker's Samus
- 1.09: (11/19/2015)
- Marth Nair now two reliable hits instead of three weak ones
- Final Destination (purple default) changed to Final Destination (blue)
- Omega Yoshi's Island changed to Achilles' Ver.
- Alpha/Omega Princess Peach's Castle changed to Hyrule Castle 64
- Alpha/Omega Jungle Japes changed to Kalos League (Zankyou's Ver.)
- Omega Past Stages Yoshi's Island changed to Wario Ware (Achilles' Ver.)
- Alpha/Omega Green Greens changed to Battlefield WiiU (Achilles' Ver.)
_
- Alpha/Omega Big Blue changed to Omega Big Blue (Itaru's Ver.)
- Icicle Mountain/Flat Zone changed to GameCube Stage (Achilles' Ver.)
STAGE PICTURES WILL BE CHANGED IN 1.10 (meaning currently unchanged)
_
- KB buffs to Samus/Sheik U/Fair, Link's UpB Ground, Falcon's Knee
- 1.08: (10/24/2015)
- Kirby UpB made even more reliable
- Samus U-Air is like Sheik's U-Air in terms of angle, kb, kbg, damage, and hit number
- Samus F-Air is like Sheik's F-Air in terms of angle, kb, kbg, damage, and hit number
- Jiggs Dair is a one hitter but does more damage, matches more with the moveset
- Peach Bthrow and Fthrow nerfed.....160-200 KBG was overkill from vanilla (now 120, angle 361)
- Zelda Dtilt KB 40vs30, Angle 361vs270
- Dreamland replaced with Zankyou's Dreamland: http://i.imgur.com/mvlmTBO.jpg
- Yoshy's Story replaced with Zankyou's ver.: http://i.imgur.com/s1zU6Am.jpg

- 1.07: Meteor Buff
- Marth Dair IASA frame 48

- Roy Dair IASA frame 49
- Kirby UpB given appropriate damage (10 upstrike, 10 meteor strike, 6 projectile hit)

- Rising Attack given longer duration (reminiscent of AETHER!!!)
- Falco Dair granted Base Knock Back due to Spike Removal

- Falco Bair buff Base Knock Back
- Sheik Fair buffed due to previous angle change
- Ice Climbers:

- vMelee essentially divides their damage equally so that Po does 2/4 damage and Nana does 2/4 damage compared to damage total
- vShieldBreaker divides it so that Popo does 3/4 damage and Nana does 1/4 (rounded up)
- Previous patches were experimental for the two. Nana was allowed the reverse of Popo's damage (as in if Po's fair did 20 damage and 10 shield damage, Nana's fair would do 10 damage and 20 shield damage)....this made them too powerful

- 1.06: KBG BUFF

- KNOCK BACK GROWTH authenticated across all characters. (this is what made characters feel off)

- Neutral Spawning Added
- Camera Panning Added
- Misc. Changes to Link, Yoshi, Roy, Sheik
- Yoshi SideB given increased height, especially for recovery
- Ness

- DownB given hitbox similar to shine
- Zero Gravity during aerial UpB Bolt Control
- and perhaps the most controversial of all, Maximum Fall Velocity reduced to 1.00
- More per-character changes elaborated below for Yoshi, Roy, Sheik, Link, Marth, and Ness

- 1.05: SHINE CHANGE

- I over-nerfed fox and falco, their shines have been restored but with a catch. The hitboxes both occur at frame 5 and both do 8 damage. Fox's shine angle is 361 vs 0

- 1.04:

Achilles-Tech (Velocity-Redux(V-Cancelling)/Aerial Guard) sound effect added.

Marth & Roy Full Shield Breaker KBG now similar to Falcon Punch.

Marth, Link and Young Link Dtilt KB changed to angle 361 (their Dairs can all Meteor).
Falcon and Ganon Dair Foot Hitbox sizes back to melee standard.
Misc changes to Mario, DK
- 1.03: Falco's laser granted flinch again, but only if the opponent is grounded. The leading hitbox does not cause flinch if the opponent is airborne. However, if the opponent were to land onto or jump into the bottom or top side of a laser, that area will cause flinch.

Fox's and Falco's lasers can also be fired in the air at half speed if the z button is held thanks to Achilles.

- 1.02: Tech Jump only allowed at frame 20 of a stationary or roll tech

- 1.01: KB buff to specific characters
___________________________________________________​
Notes on Character DAT

PlXx.dat

PlBo - Male Wireframe
PlCa - Captain Falcon
PlCl - Young Link
PlDk - DK
PlDr - Dr. Mario
PlFc - Falco
PlFe - Roy
PlFx - Fox
PlGk - Giga Bowser
PlGl - Female Wireframe
PlGn - Ganondorf
PlGw - Game and Watch
PlKb - Kirby
PlKp - Bowser
PlLg - Luigi
PlLk - Link
PlMr - Mario
PlMs - Marth
PlMt - Mewtwo
PlNn - Nana
PlNs - Ness
PlPc - Pichu
PlPe - Peach
PlPk - Pikachu
PlPp - Popo
PlPr - Jigglypuff
PlSb - Sandbag
PlSk - Sheik
PlSs - Samus
PlYs - Yoshi
PlZd - Zelda
 
Last edited:

404House

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
43
#2
I'll have to test it out soon, looks pretty interesting. Didn't expect this to be based off of SDR in all honesty, but that's still cool. I like how you nerfed the S-tiers slightly.

I'd like to keep one thing in mind, I'd recommend to not change characters in a way that changes the way they worked before if you ever do in the future. Not my choice, but just a suggestion for future reference.

Anyways, I'll test this out right now and edit my feedback. Thanks!
 

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#3
I'm definitely changing shines, and rests.
Another complaint though might be... now that damage is balanced, knock back is too low perhaps. I'm not so sure.

I believe the formula is close either way.

Oh Hi 404 XD!
 
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404House

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 9, 2014
Messages
43
#4
I'm definitely changing shines, and rests.
Another complaint though might be... now that damage is balanced, knock back is too low perhaps. I'm not so sure.

I believe the formula is close either way.

Oh Hi 404 XD!
Yo yo yo, also here's an xDelta patch to make life easy. It's on MEGA and is for 1.02 to Shield Breaker, it should work.

Played it a little bit and I feel knockback is a little too low. Just tested as Falco versus Bowser, it took me all the way until 160% until I could KO with fsmash and whatnot. Falco's bair also does wayyy too little.

Pretty good otherwise.
 

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#5
Yo yo yo, also here's an xDelta patch to make life easy. It's on MEGA and is for 1.02 to Shield Breaker, it should work.

Played it a little bit and I feel knockback is a little too low. Just tested as Falco versus Bowser, it took me all the way until 160% until I could KO with fsmash and whatnot. Falco's bair also does wayyy too little.

Pretty good otherwise.
I'll have to learn to make my own delta patches if that's the case if knockback needs fixing. The reason Falco's Bair does so little damage is because it's too fast. Fast moves don't deserve high damage. The higher S-tiers had way too many fast high damage moves, and with knockback kept the same, it's no wonder why now they have essentially low damage/low knockback. That IS a bit overkill. I'll fix it now before others want to try and I'll tend to any other errors I can.

Thanks again~! : D
 

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#6
-. -'|l

I guess a patch IS needed.
Along with the new knockback compensation for...well...mostly the S-tiers, I had to disable the hits from Ganondorf's UpB's warm embrace for now since for some reason he would just let go of the opponent and go into a damage subaction for himself! O:

Silly Emo Ganon '___'
 

zankyou

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
1,055
#7
It doesnt seem as though you took into account knockback scaling, how fast a character is able to kill/be killed, the range of the attack as well as things like priority. Editing strictly on speed is asking for trouble and I can imagine a host of problems like falco not being able to kill til 160% for many characters. Theres a lot of factors that go into balancing a move.
 

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#8
Z zankyou , priority and range are mostly balanced from SD Remix.

Honestly, I prefer the S-tiers be underpowered at first then work my way from there rather than having them as overpowered as they were before. You haven't seen the numbers like I have; Fox and Falco had ridiculous damage multipliers for their best moves compared to the rest of the cast. Because of this It was mostly the spacies that suffered from the lack of knockback compensation. The remaining cast's damage wavers only slightly compared to vanilla which is why I chose "frames + 3." Therefore the balancing route I took is unique and ideal.

Falco and Fox were patched right before your comment by the way.
Best wishes to the future of melee~

Thanks for the feedback. I needed more opinions to be certain.
 
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Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#12
Any of you recommend a 3 round burst fire pistol or a higher damaging pistol?

I'm not adding flinch to his lasers -- they were too cheap. Basically no charge up = no flinch. If I went back to modding project m, I'd do the same to pit.
 

zankyou

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 12, 2014
Messages
1,055
#13
Any of you recommend a 3 round burst fire pistol or a higher damaging pistol?

I'm not adding flinch to his lasers -- they were too cheap. Basically no charge up = no flinch. If I went back to modding project m, I'd do the same to pit.
Lasers arent as effective as youre making it out to be in competitive play. But they are arguably too good. My only complaint about lasers is that they dont have hurtboxes like every other projectile in the game. Only change Id make to them. Falco's actually really slow, laser flinch is how he keeps up.
 

Aerros11

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 5, 2009
Messages
284
#14
Lasers arent as effective as youre making it out to be in competitive play. But they are arguably too good. My only complaint about lasers is that they dont have hurtboxes like every other projectile in the game. Only change Id make to them. Falco's actually really slow, laser flinch is how he keeps up.
You mean make it so they can be punched away or something?
That does sound a bit more fair. He is heavily deranked now and I do miss the need to perfect shield the lasers.
But that also means I should try making fox's lasers also react with hitboxes.

EDIT: Looks like I'd have to add hurtboxes to lasers. I'm not sure how to do that yet. I'll find out.
 
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Aerros11

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#15
flieskiller flieskiller , Z zankyou , CPRDMBreaker2k CPRDMBreaker2k

I tried to change the hurtbox properties to 2 (which only allows damage to grounded opponents). But no results showed. What I did do was patch Falco so that he actually does do 4 damage with a laser since for some reason he wasn't doing that.

I used to play Falco barebones in vanilla melee as in no shines, no lasers, and no dairs (the 3 cheapest things about him). Other projectile based characters can't use their weapon to create openings like falco can nor can they almost instantly send out 2+ projectiles to edge guard from DEEP! For now, things are staying as they are.

Unfortunately for those that are too used to the crutch of a 5 frame spike, a 1 frame upwards sending shine, and a safe opening creating laser...this game may not be for you.
 

flieskiller

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#16
flieskiller flieskiller , Z zankyou , CPRDMBreaker2k CPRDMBreaker2k

I tried to change the hurtbox properties to 2 (which only allows damage to grounded opponents). But no results showed. What I did do was patch Falco so that he actually does do 4 damage with a laser since for some reason he wasn't doing that.
I've never worked on character's hitboxes, but is the change you've made is similar to how G&W's down-tilt does? Because that attack have a aerial-only hit and a ground-only hit, so you could check how it works and copy its working version.
 

Aerros11

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#17
flieskiller flieskiller

Alright >.>; you have persuaded me. I retried to change the hurtbox interaction and it turns out it needs to be "1". Somehow it accomplishes flinching grounded opponents and not aerial opponents for the first hitbox of the laser...however the remaining 3 hitboxes behind the laser (if landed on or jumped into while airborne) still cause flinch. I'm checking them out now.

EDIT: I'll leave it as 1 for now; it seems interesting.
 
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tatatat0

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#18
Very nice mod, might I ask how you managed to get all characters have walljumps as a dol mod???
 

Aerros11

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#19
You just wanna know for your mod XD. Alright. Use DRGN's melee code manager. Go to tools, add new mods to library . 04 codes are static overwrites while c2 codes are injections. Uhh sec while i copy paste an example

tatatat0 tatatat0 oh honestly, using the melee code manager from DRGN, I think that all character wall jump code was already included as a "starter pack"
 
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Aerros11

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#20
For example I requested a tech jump cancel code from achilles which is a three part code. Since the first two parts are static overwrites (04 codes), click the plus sign on the static overwrite button. Since the second part is an injection (C2), click the plus sign on the injection mod button.

The codes look like this:
043C4110 800CAED0

043C4130 800CAED0

C20CAED0 00000006
80030070 2C0000C7
41800020 2C0000C9
41810018 C022DF50
C0430448 FC020840
40800008 4E800020
7C0802A6 00000000

To actually place them into the game:
1. Static Overwrite
Offset: 803C4110 (note: 04 is replaced with 80)
New Hex: 800CAED0
Original Hex: [will fill itself upon writing the offset and new hex]

2. Static Overwrite
Offset: 803C4130
New Hex: 800CAED0
Original Hex: .....

3. Injection Mod
Offset: 800CAED0 (note: C2 is replaced with 80; ignore 00000006)
Injection Code:

80030070 2C0000C7
41800020 2C0000C9
41810018 C022DF50
C0430448 FC020840
40800008 4E800020
7C0802A6 48000000 (note: final 00000000 replaced with 48000000)
 

Aerros11

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#22
Holy crap Ganondorf is garbage now.

Then again I use db to edgeguard and up-b as not a recovery soooooo.
Ganondorf is my main. He's not trash here. The removal of spiking was all too necessary and is actually not the most common edge guard move for him.. Both he and falcon can edge guard with reverse uair and now an ftilt low.

Basically if a character doesnt kill his/herself in the process (like bowser's downB kills him) then the move shouldn't be a spike. If you were forced to change melee....would you have done it another way?
 
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zankyou

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#23
Ganondorf is my main. He's not trash here. The removal of spiking was all too necessary and is actually not the most common edge guard move for him.. Both he and falcon can edge guard with reverse uair and now an ftilt low.

Basically if a character doesnt kill his/herself in the process (like bowser's downB kills him) then the move shouldn't be a spike. If you were forced to change melee....would you have done it another way?
Ganon's DB is a high risk high reward move. Part of the fun on melee is fighting off to the side of the stage.
 

TerryJ

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#24
Some of the changes you've listed are obviously arguable, but I'm gonna give this a try before I make any notes. Otherwise this looks pretty darn neat! :D
 

Aerros11

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#25
Ganon's DB is a high risk high reward move. Part of the fun on melee is fighting off to the side of the stage.
'___' Ganon gains a jump out of downB and can thus survive. He doesn't need that move to be a spike. The rule is, if you die from the attack, then the kill must be secured. Those are my ideals...and I hold true to them still as a Ganon main.

I won't lie though, it was a struggle making the decision because it IS a slow move with a higher than normal risk than a dair but what I did makes the most sense to me.
 
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Aerros11

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#26
Some of the changes you've listed are obviously arguable, but I'm gonna give this a try before I make any notes. Otherwise this looks pretty darn neat! :D
Heya!
I might've missed some things but I hope you like it as much as I do.
Cheers~
 

Doq

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#27
Ganondorf is my main. He's not trash here. The removal of spiking was all too necessary and is actually not the most common edge guard move for him.. Both he and falcon can edge guard with reverse uair and now an ftilt low.

Basically if a character doesnt kill his/herself in the process (like bowser's downB kills him) then the move shouldn't be a spike. If you were forced to change melee....would you have done it another way?
Actually I would have.

Ganondorf air-down-b being a spike made sense to me because it was a useful option. With the spiking property removed, down-air is now the better option 100% of the time.

Now if you were to modify the angle so it shot away and not down that would make sense and probably open up a lot more options and make air-down-b useful again. (I may actually mess around with air-down-b angles and see which one may be the best)

The damage formula is something that may actually make sense though, so +1.
-----
e~ Also Bowser's dspec can grab ledge facing either way, so your statement is sort of invalid.
 
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Aerros11

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#28
Angle 290 is an automatic spike. Shall I try angle 289 o.O? The current angle is 280.

And I guess Bowser's downB...users wouldn't exactly go about killing themselves in the first place too much, would they.
hm..your reasoning has swayed me O:

Kay, so something has to change. I did mention how it didn't make sense in vanilla that fast attacks were spikes...slow attacks should be spikes. But is that too overpowered?

Is it even fair to give someone a spike just because their attack takes 20+ frames per say?
I might end up making bowser able to jump out of his downB if that's the case and just remove spiking all together.
Feels weird though, and I was so sure of my decision before.

Thanks for the comment about the damage formula @__@'|l puts me at ease
 

Doq

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#29
So I tried a number of different angles for Ganon's ADB. Here's the recordings if you want to check that out:
And the list of angles I tried if you don't:
0
15
30
45
60
90
270
280
290
315
330
345
Imo, I like 60. It makes for the same ol' useful knockback/edgeguard tool at higher percents and allows followups at lower percents. 45 knocks them away too far and 90 knocks them too far up. Then again all of these results are only on Marth (or Kirby in the case of 270/280), so take it with a grain of salt.

315/330 look cool as hell tho and I don't know why HAL Labs didn't go with that angle instead.

0 is basically a Ganon-powered Shine spike with no JC.

Using GALJ01 Japanese Melee v1.00. You may get better results using SDR.
 

Aerros11

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#30
You sure are dedicated. Interesting..

I saw the whole vid. I especially appreciated you destroying that Marth punching bag.

Anyway, I noticed it looks like changing the angle to 270 all the way to 289(?) is meteor cancel territory and all other angles can be considered a spike (as in recovery is not possible until a damage animation finishes). Therefore, if I'm meant to change the angle to anything other than 270-289, then it might as well go back to 290 to make sure the enemy is sent straight to hell XD

Some things to note then first:
  • the aerial wizard's foot hits at frame 15
  • ganon's Dair hits at frame 16
The logic then, for fairness, would be all down angled moves that begin at frame 15+ can be spikes...which would then create a lot of characters who can spike. That would also mean that Ganondorf's DAIR should also become a spike. That should already raise some eyebrows D:

Falcon and ganon dairs (meteors) have been doing just fine all this time in vanilla as an edge guard. Thus, it can be said that all meteors are sufficent, especially if the opponent has already lost their double jump. Adaptation to characters like Kirby require side and upward sending attacks for the finishing blow (or reverse uair/ftilt low edgeguarding).

Now that I've said all this, does it still make sense to you, with the lame fairness rule i've made to reinstate the spike in Ganon's downB?

You can say yes of course, and I want an honest answer because I want to be wrong @__@, but just make sure you've watched this first if you're going to answer me:
 

Doq

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#33
I saw that combo video and was disappointed by the lack of up-b kills.

I am still convinced ADB does not need to be a meteor because dair would still be the better option 100% of the time AND Ganondorf would have two meteors. And to be honest all that video really told me was to up-air more, which is hard enough as is because I'm more of a fair person.

What tatatat0 tatatat0 is saying is to make the angle not 290 (spike) but make it something more than 290 (semispike, like 330).
 

Aerros11

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#34
What I don't understand is how that is a semi-spike.
To my understanding, anything that isn't a meteor cannot be jumped out of or upB out of until the damage state animation terminates on its own. A spike is only special in name because the angle just so happens to be downward instead. So in telling me to make it a semi spike, with my knowledge, I'm really just being told to make it a move 'which cannot be acted out of until the damage state animation terminates on its own'...which is essentially a spike but ....

Doq Doq , are you able to fight me in melee netplay? I want to see just how useful your wanted technique is...and I think it best to settle this with a children's card game...I mean melee

EDIT: Reference

 
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Aerros11

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#35
Another thing is that changing the angle to 330 or so makes it too good if the opponent is onstage and grounded.
 

tatatat0

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#36
The only way to do that is by increasing knockback? Is that what you're saying?
A semi-spike is a trajectory that is probably less than 35 and greater than -35 or less than 2155 and greater than 145 (I don't remember if thats the exact trajectory but thats about right) (fox's shine is considered a semi-spike as its angle is 0)
 
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Aerros11

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#38
Angle 330 qualifies for the "semi-spike" then.

I tried it but the knockback + damage + Angle 330 for a wizard's foot were too good if the target were to be grounded on-stage.
Enemy players get thrown pretty far out stage at even 70%.

It just won't do. The benefit of DownB over Dair would have to be left to situational benefit...as it seems so far.

I want to fight DoctorKirby with my Ganon main on netplay just to see how useful that original downB really is because after a decade of melee it has always been a very rare and situational tool for me
 

tatatat0

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#39
Angle 330 qualifies for the "semi-spike" then.

I tried it but the knockback + damage + Angle 330 for a wizard's foot were too good if the target were to be grounded on-stage.
Enemy players get thrown pretty far out stage at even 70%.

It just won't do. The benefit of DownB over Dair would have to be left to situational benefit...as it seems so far.

I want to fight DoctorKirby with my Ganon main on netplay just to see how useful that original downB really is because after a decade of melee it has always been a very rare and situational tool for me
Try like 20-30 mate, the gravity makes it not go up a lot.
 

Doq

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#40
I tried to make this post earlier but the school net sux.

That's why I'm suggesting angle 60. If 290 is unreasonable then make ADB a different tool entirely.
Aerros11 Aerros11 I am currently at school but if you meet me on AnLa in about 6 hours we can duke it out. SDR, SB, or vM?
 
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