If you insist on being a **** about it, the point is that someone who actually cares enough about the subject will point out the holes and invest their time in a long-winded argument instead of me.
I'm not pulling some "take my word for it" bull****, so leave the strawman at the door.
Boo hoo, Smashchu was mean to mean.
You made a post about how my argument was full of holes but never bother to actually point anything out. Your comment just exist to be degrading with no actual content. Who who is the real asshole here.[/quote]
There is support for every character so what is the point of your argument.
You do realize my point was not the quantity of the support, which I never claimed was high, merely the fact that it existed, which it obviously does, as you've now admitted yourself.
The problem with discussing anything with NE0N is that the argument is immediately lost in the first reply back. How do you expect to have a coheirent debate when you take a single sentense and turn it into a multipost reply. It's clear you don't understand how to aregue let alone write. There is a sense of flow that is lost which makes any argument with you a pointless task.
You post tell me this argument was not for a point but for semantics. Every character is going to be discussed and have some request. I don't think there is anyone with 0 so your point is correct, but it serves no purpose. Yet the points you bring up are of quality so already the meaning and context are lost. You claim argument with me loses brain cells yet your the one who doesn't understand flow and consistency.
I'll make sly remarks to some of the stuff but there is no point in trying to make a well thought response to someone who turned 3 paragraphs into 15 quotes and who thinks posting silly images makes them intelligent or clever.
That said, if you extrapolate his 1:4 ratio (which due to his wide recognition among consumers will remain fairly constant) to the lifetime sales of Smash 4... let's say roughly 12 mil, logically it wouldn't be too much assume one fourth of those consumers would enjoy seeing Pac-Man, which, at roughly three million, is an audience that will only be reached by Mario, Pokemon, and Zelda (maybe DK) characters at this point, or other iconic third-parties. Do you think 3 million people would be influenced by the inclusion of Shulk, or Isaac, or Palutena, or Chrom? I doubt it. In the tiny sample size of a certain demographic that the poll represents, he's... of lukewarm popularity, and yeah, he's likely not going to get any more popular, but other characters will certainly get less popular with a larger sample size and a wider array of demographics, whom Sakurai values more than he does us.
Math isn't your strong suit either. If Pac-Man has has fewer votes that a lot of other characters, wouldn't that mean more than 3 million people would care about Pac-Man
This is assuming the only possible way a third-party can be included is by topping the popularity charts (though even when Mega Man did it wasn't good enough for you). There have been extenuating circumstances in the past that lead to the inclusion of third-parties who otherwise wouldn't be at the top of the polls either, and while the creator of Pac-Man might not be bffs with Sakurai, Namco's involvement isn't something that can go ignored as far as roster potential is concerned.
So because Snake was added at a friends request that means Pac-Man can be added for a completely unrelated reason. That doesn't even make logical sense. Your saying that "Because the exception makes the rules, anything is possible." Nice catch all huh?
He's no Tales character, but indeed they do.
Again, semantics. From what Groose has brought back and Chrono's original research, they never consider him a likely candidate. The assumption he'll get in is solely a western one.
Yeah, when people idealize the roster, they obviously want original movesets above cloned ones, but once included, at least with Brawl, they're pretty fully and positively embraced. If the majority of people shared your mentality that lack of original moveset equaled boring character, they wouldn't all have relatively equal play time, at least according to Sakurai. We certainly wouldn't have gotten Falco and Ganondorf over Mewtwo in Brawl. I guess in regards to Smash some clones were even more popular than characters with original movesets, huh?
Not that this applies to Pac-Man, as he wouldn't be a clone, but even if he was, he'd still have his popularity, which means somebody must find him interesting, even if you don't.
I love how your points never have a clear logical flow. They jump from A to Q.'
People still complain about Ganondorf and Mewtwo was planned to be added (you can blame Sonic, a unique character), for that. S
I agree, if you're going to add Pac-Man, you better make him original. So, in that vein, please tell me, which characters' bite, or eating ability in general carries them across the stage? Because Pac-Man's can. Which character brings out an item, then charges that item and throws it with power relative to how long the item was held, like Pac-Man could with Pac-Dots? How about a recovery move where you would create a chain of Pac-dots, be able to freely control the direction the chain traveled (like the coin snakes in SMW as a very loose comparison), and then have Pac-Man follow that trajectory? Which character's recovery functions like that? As for the Butt Bounce... you say two characters already do this. Perhaps you think slamming and bouncing are the same, but considering one keeps you grounded and the other sends you back into the air, with the potential to chain another bounce or make a quick follow-up attack, I'd say even if similar in initial execution, they're hardly the same. With logic like this we'd only have one sword-user.
And what about his Electro-Shock ability? Sure, other characters could be capable of doing something pretty similar, but none of them actually do, not even Pikachu. Or his radial shockwaves, not something any other character does last time I checked. The truth is Pac-Man has more to work with than several characters already on the roster who, even with limited or no previous potential, wound up with original movesets.
OH NO GUYS ITS TOTALLY DIFFERENT NOW BECAUSE HIS BITE MOVES HIM ACROSS THE STAGE, SO INSTEAD OF A CLONE OF WARIO'S BITE WE NOW HAVE META-KNIGHTS TRIPLE DASH. SEE, HE'S ORIGINAL.
Moves like the crash bomb, the buster, Nakita (spelling?), the C4, the homing attack and spin dash and so on are unique moves with unique functions. Not a moves to make a character seem different.
Well if eating is already done by four characters, unless all four were added in 64 (which isn't the case) then it seems new characters can still be added with existing abilities. If Jigglypuff already had a chargeable roll, aren't Sonic's chargeable rolls something the Nintendo characters already do, and wouldn't his inclusion, or at least the implementation of not just one chargeable rolling attack, but two, be redundant, and therefore, not worthy of inclusion? By your logic it is. By Sakurai's it's not. Because, surprise surprise, like I said previously, there are different ways of implementing an ability. If Kirby's inhale and Yoshi's tongue can be labeled under the same umbrella and used to justify the exclusion of all other attacks that involve consumption, by that mentality we shouldn't get any more characters that use swords. Or magic. Or pretty much every kind of elemental power or attack.
1)Jigglypuff is the only character who rolls.
2)Sonic can also jump during his
3)Sonic has other unique abilities like the homing attack and his speed
4)Sonic has other reasons to add him as well.
One, please tell me where I said being unique doesn't matter for inclusion, and two, (not that it will apply to Pac-Man), considering all the clones and semi-clones that have been added over the years, it's clearly not a rule as rigid to Sakurai as it is to you.
And really, not an original moveset makes characters automatically not interesting? By your logic no one should want to play as clones or semi-clones then. People would dread having to play as them, right? Or at least they'd flock to the original, yeah? Wonder why it doesn't work out that way... maybe because characters don't have to be completely original to still find an audience that is interested by them.
So... you're saying Pac-Man's capabilities are too limited to be original at this point, he's mostly known for only one thing that can't really be fleshed out, and to back this up you posted a quote proving how Sakurai took a character thought by some as known only for one thing, was able to look past that to find depth and flesh out a whole moveset and playstyle, and even took material from different series in the composition of the moveset when he couldn't find what he was looking for?
Sonic has source material. How did you not get that?
You are still
against Pac-Man, right?
Do people even take you seriously?
It's not like Sakurai is limited to drawing potential from solely one arcade game. That'd be like relegating Donkey Kong to throwing barrels. Pac-Man has done stuff since then that can be drawn from, believe it or not.
This point has been brought up before. People don't recognize with the Pac-Man outside of the arcade game. This is also why his newest game bombed.
So do you actually mean to imply Sonic was added primarily for his playstyle and moveset and the fact that he was Sonic, the most popular request in Smash history, was secondary? None of the third-parties to date have gotten in due to their "unique abilities", they got in due to who they are, and then the moveset was created afterwards. The character by and large is the first step in most cases, except in rare cases like Captain Falcon, who was chosen due to being similar to the prototype. Obviously the character can't move past the initial phases of planning if they don't present any feasible way of implementation, but if "unique abilities" were the top priority, we'd be seeing characters like Zoroark, Muddy Mole, and Balloon Fighter at the top of the likelihood lists, and characters like Chrom would be nowhere to be seen. We wouldn't have gotten Ike when there were choices like Hector and Ephraim present. We wouldn't have gotten five clones instead of Dedede. If unique abilities were of the utmost importance, more than the characters themselves, the official polls would've asked for attributes and abilities you want to see, not characters.
No, your inferring. Consider my argument was Pac-Man wont be added because he isn't popular and doesn't have unique abilities. Again, this is why we don't break a 3 paragraph argument into 15 quotes.
Seems like this reply would be better suited to someone who actually said Pac-Man's chances were undebatably high.
You mean how Pac-Man has roughly 600 votes in a poll with less than 2400 votes total? So one in four people want him? So over 500 people want him? Yeah, that must mean no one wants him, yes? And the ratio isn't going to decrease if you make it more public. Sure, maybe his ratio wouldn't grow tremendously, but one in every four people who recognizes him probably would like to see him in Smash, while many many people probably wouldn't even recognize the majority of the other characters on the poll, which would cause their numbers to falter a bit, making Pac-Man look, overall, better. I'm not saying he'll ever be top of the charts, but to actually argue that no one wants to see him is a bit foolish.
Forget logic and reason indeed. Though I do wonder how you justify to yourself those times you wind up being wrong, considering you seem to think and act like you're unquestionably right all the time.
Unlike most people, and unlike yourself, I put my ass on the line. Everyone was wrong about the roster. Difference was I took a stab at it. And again, because I was wrong once doesn't mean I'll be wrong again (that's another fallacy). My arguments are what they are. The points as they stand.
You can reply to me if you want (the Pac-Man thread would be the place to do it though), but I have no intention of furthering this debate, I've done this enough times to know there's very little progress to be made. My original point is pretty much established anyway, I've proved his potential, which you are free to still ignore, you've acknowledged his popularity, for whatever it's worth, and I can only hope the distinction between opinion and fact is evident. If not you can always go check the poll to see 600 people who presumably think Pac-Man is interesting. By the way, I'm not one of them.
You didn't prove anything. Most of your points lacked logical flow and relied on half ask sly remarks and logical fallacies. You just proven you can't debate.
If you attempt to argument with me again, come up with sound reasonable point. Don't waste my time again.
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