Meta SSB4 Falco Matchup Thread - Main Post

Ffamran

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why are none of the matchup discussions linked the OP
'Cause the OP hasn't been here and is busy. There are links in the directory which serves as a temporary MU directory: http://smashboards.com/threads/all-aircraft-report-falco-directory.398704/.

... I might just edit the OP with my mod powers and add the temporary MU directory there. Also, you can use the search bar to look for characters. Make sure to check the title box to look for characters mentioned in thread titles only. And since we only have 3 pages in this board, it's not that difficult to scroll down and check the other pages.

Edit: I would also like requests, since I'm going to go autopilot with the next MU discussions. Oh, and if you request one, make sure to actually participate since it's kind of pointless to request Toon Link and Shulk and not discuss them.
 
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Snipnigth

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Hey Falco boards, the Greninja boards are-

Oh, nevermind.

Well, we're mostly looking for more of a "how to win" for our MU discussions lately, not "who wins" so if any of you guys could give any advice, that would be great.
lool, dude you have every advantage on us, better and faster proyectile, faster character overall, can combo us easily, SOFT NAIR INTO FAIR COMBOS AT HIGH % AND KILLS, more range, lower ending and landing lags, greninja standing is small enough to not GET hit by rar bair i even think he can crouch falcos laser and move under it, he can keep the pressure while keeping a safe distance...

Greninja is beast, not impossible matchup for falco, but greninja truly has the advantage here.
 

Ffamran

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lool, dude you have every advantage on us, better and faster proyectile, faster character overall, can combo us easily, SOFT NAIR INTO FAIR COMBOS AT HIGH % AND KILLS, more range, lower ending and landing lags, greninja standing is small enough to not GET hit by rar bair i even think he can crouch falcos laser and move under it, he can keep the pressure while keeping a safe distance...

Greninja is beast, not impossible matchup for falco, but greninja truly has the advantage here.
You could post that there in their MU discussion. :p

Enjoy the pain, @ Snipnigth Snipnigth .
Thanks for your response, great to have some input from some actual Falco mains. You should tell your friend that we get weak Nair -> Usmash as well and it kills even earlier than weak Nair -> Fair xD

Realistically though weak Nair is really hard to land because it's pretty telegraphed and unsafe on block (it's not bad on whiff). It can work as a (very) hard punish against big commitments though. It's interesting to see someone speak so highly of it... weak Nair would be an excellent kill confirm if it was easier to land, perhaps that's something we can work on in the future.
 
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gameplayzero

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Can our next discussion be on pac-man? I fought one recently and I have video footage of me fighting my first pacman ranked to go along with it. I want to keep these match up discussions going so I can help as much as I can.
 

Ffamran

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Read me like a book why don't you? :p

I was going to have Pac-Man paired up with Mr. Game & Watch since they share the same birthdays, but only one of them will have the 35th discussion spot. Pac-Man is younger by like a month, so I guess Mr. G&W gets that spot. There's a reason why Duck Hunt is #31 as well. Also, Jigglypuff will be #39.

That leaves who's going to be #33. Any requests? I might have to pick at random. I was considering Robin or Pit, but I'm not sure how many people have fought those MUs. We're pretty much at a point of characters who people don't see a lot.
 
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gameplayzero

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Read me like a book why don't you? :p

I was going to have Pac-Man paired up with Mr. Game & Watch since they share the same birthdays, but only one of them will have the 35th discussion spot. Pac-Man is younger by like a month, so I guess Mr. G&W gets that spot. There's a reason why Duck Hunt is #31 as well. Also, Jigglypuff will be #39.

That leaves who's going to be #33. Any requests? I might have to pick at random. I was considering Robin or Pit, but I'm not sure how many people have fought those MUs. We're pretty much at a point of characters who people don't see a lot.
good question. I haven't had too much experience against either of those two, but i'll look for people to fight to aid the match up discussion whoever that may be. I'd just say go random for the hell of it if you can't decide.
 
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Ffamran

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I am plagued by Mr. Game & Watch whenever I play online and it's always when I use Falco. It's like a conspiracy, man! So, yeah, I'm kind of used to fighting Mr. Game & Watch from bad ones, decent ones, and good ones, but never pro ones like GimR because 3DS.

What's left are Bowser Jr. :4bowserjr:, Charizard :4charizard:, Triple D :4dedede:, a ditto thread if anyone really wants that :4falco:, Mr. Game & Watch :4gaw: who's locked for #35, Greninja :4greninja:, Jiggles :4jigglypuff: who'll be #39, Kirby :4kirby:, Lucina :4lucina:, sort of Mega Man :4megaman: since the thread is old, but it's there, Mii Brawler :4miibrawl:, Gunner :4miigun:, and Swordfighter :4miisword:, Olimar/Alph :4olimar:/ :4alph:,Pac-Man :4pacman: who's going to be #34 or #36 since I want to pair him with Mr. G&W, the Pits :4pit:&:4darkpit:, Robin :4robinf:, Wario :4wario:, Wii Fit Trainer :4wiifit:, and this special guy who's never shown up ever: :substitute:. :p

Mewtwo :4mewtwo: and Lucas :4lucas: are still on hold, but Mewtwo might be open since I think it's almost been a month, but I'm still iffy on allowing that early of a discussion. Greninja might be on hold for maybe a week since there was already a discussion there, so it'd be like repeating stuff. Of the 19 characters without a thread and I might just have the Pits share the thread unless someone really objects and feels they deserve separate threads, Greninja and Lucina are the most popular and had their discussion on Falco already while everyone else are rarer. It's all up to requests if someone has real issues they want to discuss like, say someone has no idea how to fight Bowser Jr. and if that doesn't happen, I'm probably going to pick at random.
 

gameplayzero

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I am plagued by Mr. Game & Watch whenever I play online and it's always when I use Falco. It's like a conspiracy, man! So, yeah, I'm kind of used to fighting Mr. Game & Watch from bad ones, decent ones, and good ones, but never pro ones like GimR because 3DS.

What's left are Bowser Jr. :4bowserjr:, Charizard :4charizard:, Triple D :4dedede:, a ditto thread if anyone really wants that :4falco:, Mr. Game & Watch :4gaw: who's locked for #35, Greninja :4greninja:, Jiggles :4jigglypuff: who'll be #39, Kirby :4kirby:, Lucina :4lucina:, sort of Mega Man :4megaman: since the thread is old, but it's there, Mii Brawler :4miibrawl:, Gunner :4miigun:, and Swordfighter :4miisword:, Olimar/Alph :4olimar:/ :4alph:,Pac-Man :4pacman: who's going to be #34 or #36 since I want to pair him with Mr. G&W, the Pits :4pit:&:4darkpit:, Robin :4robinf:, Wario :4wario:, Wii Fit Trainer :4wiifit:, and this special guy who's never shown up ever: :substitute:. :p

Mewtwo :4mewtwo: and Lucas :4lucas: are still on hold, but Mewtwo might be open since I think it's almost been a month, but I'm still iffy on allowing that early of a discussion. Greninja might be on hold for maybe a week since there was already a discussion there, so it'd be like repeating stuff. Of the 19 characters without a thread and I might just have the Pits share the thread unless someone really objects and feels they deserve separate threads, Greninja and Lucina are the most popular and had their discussion on Falco already while everyone else are rarer. It's all up to requests if someone has real issues they want to discuss like, say someone has no idea how to fight Bowser Jr. and if that doesn't happen, I'm probably going to pick at random.
There was this one good one at this recent tourney I was at, but that was about it. Most of the G&W's are eh. Yeah I'd say just go random. Funny thing is that I secondary mii sword fighter so I'll provide some huge input on that as sad as that is lol. Wii fit, charizard, Triple D, BJ, and Kirby I'mm all familiar with so most of the time I should be able to know the strengths and weaknesses of that character in the match up.

I'll also try and reach out for more input from the people who actually main the characters. Like the DH thread, its very much needed. Especially with obscure characters.
 
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BlueBirdE

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I got info on gw, d3, and jiggz. Dont know if you want to open those yet i want to take a few notes before i say anything on them.
 

kenniky

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Hi there!

Even with two new characters being leaked, you guys only need to discuss one of them!



We can see that Roy:Falco is 100:0

thank you for your time

(please do not take this seriously)
 
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kenniky

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Id like to see some buffs on the bird tho
Falco is one of those characters, like Charizard, that seem good in theory but are super lacking in execution.

Also, I'm amazed you guys have so many matchup threads. You guys are probably the furthest ahead in terms of matchup discussion (or at least look like it)
 

Ffamran

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The Greninja and Rosalina boards are on their second round of MU discussions, but they have one central thread and only discuss a select character(s) for a week. I felt like we should have open threads for ongoing discussions even if it clutters the hell out of the boards.

Ryu's going to be an interesting fight since Falco sort of combos like in Street Fighter, but slower. It'd be one hell of a boxing match between the two.
 

Ffamran

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Good thing M. Bison and Rose didn't make it in or Falco would have been screwed. And good thing Falco's not part-Grass or Roy would be having some weird grass pheasant for dinner.
 
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Anyone have a opinion on the Roy :4feroy: match up yet?

I think the Falco has a advantage. I've fought Roy twice on FG and the matches weren't very close. The first match I two stocked him. The second one was a little better but I still only had 30% on my second life. I was able to juggle Roy pretty easily. I had a hard time grabbing Roy because he is pretty fast so I used SH side b to pop him in the air and usually followed up with b-air to get him off stage. I also used the lasers and reflector to help slow him down. Both Roy and Falco like to fight close to their opponent so it could be a pretty entertaining MU. It's still early for Roy so there are a lot of players still testing him out, but any early impressions?
 

Ffamran

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Anyone have a opinion on the Roy :4feroy: match up yet?

I think the Falco has a advantage. I've fought Roy twice on FG and the matches weren't very close. The first match I two stocked him. The second one was a little better but I still only had 30% on my second life. I was able to juggle Roy pretty easily. I had a hard time grabbing Roy because he is pretty fast so I used SH side b to pop him in the air and usually followed up with b-air to get him off stage. I also used the lasers and reflector to help slow him down. Both Roy and Falco like to fight close to their opponent so it could be a pretty entertaining MU. It's still early for Roy so there are a lot of players still testing him out, but any early impressions?
I would like new characters to have at least a month before a discussion pops up since they're new and all and I don't want misconceptions about them. The other thing is that Falco's pretty much a changed, almost new character now, so maybe we should hold off on MU discussions and figure out Falco more before we begin and resume discussions. Unless it's a severe issue like say, top Ryu players show up everywhere, then I'd rather just wait for a month, let things get figured out before we talk about new characters like Lucas, Roy, and Ryu.

For now, we only have the Mii Fighters and Mewtwo before a month unless something happens like Roy becomes a red plague. And we should reexamine the other MU discussions as they're ongoing and things change either because of new discoveries to how a character fights or stuff like patches changing how a character fights.
 

Ffamran

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Gamegenie222

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In terms of he straight up wins yeah. He has alot of evenish, slight advantage or disadvantage MU's in my experiences. Haven't played alot of mu's to give out solid ratio numbers that I feel 100% confident in sadly outside of :4villager::4villagerf:, :4lucario: and :4mario:. I apologize in advance.
 
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Attila_

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Gonna jump in here and say that falco loses to Villager, and probably goes even with link.

If the Villager knows the edge flowchart, and knows how to tech, you actually can't kill it.

Seriously.

Reflected projectiles normally don't go far enough to hit it, reflected gyros and trees can be pocketed and returned at a significantly higher power. We keep villager at bay well, but an inability to actually get in, and a complete inability to edgeguard leaves us completely without kill options. Villager will cover the ledge with gyros and uairs and recover low, even if you predict well and bair it, if they tech, you're actually dead. On the other hand, a mistake in neutral in villager's favor can lead to a (very) easy edgeguard with bowling ball or tree.

Link's buffed grab and combo game are significantly more potent than ours; he even has dthrow to uair at kill percents, and uthrow KOs when your percent is too high to combo. Reflector's usage is limited due to the multiple angles he can throw bombs, and reflector only reflecting the boomerang's windbox. Falco has to approach, but a single mistake is incredibly costly. Outboxing him is also difficult; Link's dtilt, zair, nair and fair are basically unpunishable on whiff. Falco has effective edgeguards, but I feel like everything else is working against him in this MU.
 

Gamegenie222

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Gonna jump in here and say that falco loses to Villager, and probably goes even with link.

If the Villager knows the edge flowchart, and knows how to tech, you actually can't kill it.

Seriously.

Reflected projectiles normally don't go far enough to hit it, reflected gyros and trees can be pocketed and returned at a significantly higher power. We keep villager at bay well, but an inability to actually get in, and a complete inability to edgeguard leaves us completely without kill options. Villager will cover the ledge with gyros and uairs and recover low, even if you predict well and bair it, if they tech, you're actually dead. On the other hand, a mistake in neutral in villager's favor can lead to a (very) easy edgeguard with bowling ball or tree.

Link's buffed grab and combo game are significantly more potent than ours; he even has dthrow to uair at kill percents, and uthrow KOs when your percent is too high to combo. Reflector's usage is limited due to the multiple angles he can throw bombs, and reflector only reflecting the boomerang's windbox. Falco has to approach, but a single mistake is incredibly costly. Outboxing him is also difficult; Link's dtilt, zair, nair and fair are basically unpunishable on whiff. Falco has effective edgeguards, but I feel like everything else is working against him in this MU.
Hmm what you think the MU ratio is then cause I argued with a few people bout this MU including a Villager in my area and a decent one online always felt it it's slight advantage to Falco or Villager?
 
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I think this would be an appropriate list of characters Falco does well against. Would like some imput from @ Attila_ Attila_ though, since I'm nowhere near as good as he is.

Characters I think Falco definitely beats:
:4ganondorf::4samus::4mewtwo::4olimar::4bowser:

Character's I feel, but not 100% sure on if Falco has an advantage against or not:
:4duckhunt::4tlink::4megaman::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4shulk::4myfriends::4robinf::4feroy:
 

Attila_

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I think this would be an appropriate list of characters Falco does well against. Would like some imput from @ Attila_ Attila_ though, since I'm nowhere near as good as he is.

Characters I think Falco definitely beats:
:4ganondorf::4samus::4mewtwo::4olimar::4bowser:

Character's I feel, but not 100% sure on if Falco has an advantage against or not:
:4duckhunt::4tlink::4megaman::4charizard::4dedede::4dk::4shulk::4myfriends::4robinf::4feroy:
I think Falco definitely beats:
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dedede::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4lucas::4mewtwo::4miigun::4miisword::4robinm::4samus::4zelda:

Probably beats:
:4gaw::4olimar::4peach::4pacman::4ryu::4shulk:

Probably even with: :4darkpit::4dk::4falco::4myfriends::4kirby::4megaman::4metaknight::4miibrawl::4rob::4pit::4wiifit:

Loses: :4falcon::4drmario::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4link::4lucario::4lucina::4marth::4ness::4pikachu::4feroy::4sheik::4villager::4tlink::4wario2::4zss::4diddy::4yoshi:

Gets rekt by: :4luigi::4mario:

Gets annihilated by: :rosalina:

Preliminary (rushed) thoughts
 

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I think Falco definitely beats:
:4bowser::4bowserjr::4charizard::4dedede::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4jigglypuff::4lucas::4mewtwo::4miigun::4miisword::4robinm::4samus::4zelda:

Probably beats:
:4gaw::4olimar::4peach::4pacman::4ryu::4shulk:

Probably even with: :4darkpit::4dk::4falco::4myfriends::4kirby::4megaman::4metaknight::4miibrawl::4rob::4pit::4wiifit:

Loses: :4falcon::4drmario::4fox::4greninja::4littlemac::4link::4lucario::4lucina::4marth::4ness::4pikachu::4feroy::4sheik::4villager::4tlink::4wario2::4zss::4diddy::4yoshi:

Gets rekt by: :4luigi::4mario:

Gets annihilated by: :rosalina:

Preliminary (rushed) thoughts
Lucario beats Falco really? I been playing this MU more and more and I find it evenish or slight advantage Lucario. It's actually fun outside of getting combos and letting Lucario live cause our up close game is better than his on a bunch of stuff.

EDIT: Even with Kirby ?
 
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Ffamran

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What so bad about Falco/Luigi?
Aside from the usual shenanigans of frame 3 Nair breaking things, but that's just a problem with them hitting before you hit because you're really predictable with followups or going on auto-pilot. What's worse for Falco is that his jab 2 to rapid jab transition isn't a true combo and it was "buffed" in patch 1.0.8 by 1 frame; it used to take 9 frames to go into rapid jab. Strangely, it takes about 8 frames to go from jab 1 to jab 2 and Falco's fine. Knockback and hit stun issues? I don't know, maybe they could make it so takes 6 frames instead to transition. The other issue is that Falco's end lag for his jabs were from Brawl to Smash 4 increased by 5 frames. His jabs used to be a fast as Fox's allowing him to jab mixup quickly, but going for jab mixups on anyone with a frame 3 to 4 move is likely going to get Falco punished. In a way, Luigi invalidates 2 of Falco's options - options that are very simple and general to most characters including Samus. Then you have his physics which makes Falco a light and easy juggling pin.

Heh, you guys are optimistic, if I made a (what I believe is Falco's) MU spread for Falco, nobody would be happy.
 
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Attila_

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Lucario beats Falco really? I been playing this MU more and more and I find it evenish or slight advantage Lucario. It's actually fun outside of getting combos and letting Lucario live cause our up close game is better than his on a bunch of stuff.

EDIT: Even with Kirby ?
I feel like Falco's inability to kill early, and lucario's ridiculous comeback ability push this mu into lucario's favor. We out neutral lucario, but he can kill us as early as 40% with a smash or bair. We're not good at denying his rage, either.

I feel Kirby has bad neutral, and lacks the speed to apply real pressure. Kirby's combo game is great, but he (she?) lacks the options to get in and start combos reliably.

imo
 
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I feel like Falco's inability to kill early, and lucario's ridiculous comeback ability push this mu into lucario's favor. We out neutral lucario, but he can kill us as early as 40% with a smash or bair. We're not good at denying his rage, either.

I feel Kirby has bad neutral, and lacks the speed to apply real pressure. Kirby's combo game is great, but he (she?) lacks the options to get in and start combos reliably.

imo
I feel that the Lucario matchup is in Falco's favor. i have a friend who mains Lucario and i usually win 6-4 or 7-3.
 
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