Squirtle Tactical Discussion

[TheReflexWonder]

wow, thanks, but slow down here. I was not asking for info on using the hydrograb or jab. My post was explaining another way to input a true hydroplane. Read it again.

Thanks anyways lol.

I was just typing in general. That wasn't direction specifically at you. I appreciate the extra knowledge, though.

I have a habit of just typing any new ideas in the various tactical discussion threads.

 

[CoonTail]

Luis I am gonna try this out asap since I have to agree hydrojabbing was way to telegraphed but jabbing at the appropriate time and hydro grabbing would be A LOT less punishable. The mix-ups with these too willl increase the success right overall also.

So I am going to this a heavy test run either today or friday and I'll let you know if it works out.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I had some stuff typed out earlier, and the computer I used crapped out on me. :/

When doing things out of a shellshift, like a Hydroplane Smash, Hydrograb, or just a jab, I've found that an effective tell for getting the maximum sliding distance is pressing the attack button when Squirtle's shell slides to where his tail was before the shellshift. Since his tail goes inside the shell for the entire animation of a shellshift, it's easy to note well in advance.

This rule of thumb only works if you don't shellstall. Because the slide is different when you shellstall, you have to rely on memorizing the timing if you come out of a shellstall, but it seems like inputting the Attack/Smash command pretty much immediately after you start sliding again works for that. This is getting easier to commit to muscle memory now.

 

[T-block]

I should really learn to incorporate shellstalling. I literally don't use it at all :\

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I should really learn to incorporate shellstalling. I literally don't use it at all :\

I know I didn't. I almost never shellshifted at all before, honestly. I'm going to a tournament today; I'll try to make use of what I know and let you know what happens.

 

[Steeler]

spoilers: luisito ***** even harder than usual

 

[TheReflexWonder]

I was able to beat up on people pretty well with it. Billy's Sheik has gotten a lot better in recent times, but he just couldn't touch my Squirtle when I was doing that. Ended up 3-stocking him once in Loser's Finals and beating him soundly for the other two.

I have a video saved of Ivysaur giving DK the proverbial **** (because she doesn't have a physical one). 3-stock, too.

In the two games I tried to fight Meta Knight with PT, they were quite close. Smart shellshifting really helps, especially since he'll often try to D-Smash or tilt you on a shellshift, but you have a better success rate with shielding out of a shellshift or doing a quick aerial over the attack. Still, what a dumb character.

 

[Aposl]

yo idk if anyone knows this but I just "discovered" that Squirtle can z drop items while charging water gun in the air, with out air dodging. This means using b- reverse water gun charge for air maneuverability is viable while holding an item. you just be reverse z drop then attack which catches the item again, or you can short hop rawr the neutral b, then reverse which is pretty mind gamesy, and when you z drop you can land grab or smash attack as another mix up!

 

[T-block]

Wait, the drop cancels the charge as well?

 

[Aposl]

^^^^^^^^^^^ yes XD

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That's really cool. I had no clue.

 

[Aposl]

yeah it works for mario, rob, squirtle, and diddy but is really only useful to squirtle and only against match ups with items. So most likely this will be cool with diddy.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Is it when Diddy is charging his Neutral-B? That would be pretty useful for him.

Regardless, I could see this helping in the Diddy matchup a fair amount, and perhaps the Peach matchup a little. Any extra option is nice.

 

[Tesh]

Its already known I think. Its just cancelling the airdodge with an item toss or drop right? Dropping has no animation. Any shield/airdodge cancellable move would be able to do this.

 

[T-block]

So does this mean Squirtle could actually zigzag his way down by b-reversal z-drop z-catch over and over again?

 

[Aposl]

actually no, those four characters are the only ones who can do it without air-dodging when they drop it out of charge. For example Lucario cant do it, DK cant do it (doesnt need it anyway). Also sonic can drop the banana by z droping out of his forward b and down b after he jumps off the ground its kinda cool.

at t-block kinda im still messing with it. I think im going to make my first vid about banana use.

 

[tubby]

would this work well against snake with his nades?

 

[T-block]

I'd imagine it's not nearly as useful, since the number of situations where you'll be falling to the stage with a grenade in hand with time to manipulate it like that will be incredibly limited. Plus, Snake has the option of stripping your grenade too.

But it's something to keep in mind for sure.

 

[TheReflexWonder]

The Wii I was borrowing has been given back to the friend letting me borrow it.

I'm pretty sure the answer is "no," but, I checked the old guide and couldn't find anything on it, so...

Can you shield during Water Gun (as in, to cancel the charge and start shielding)?

 

[tubby]

yes you can cancel the charge with a shield

 

[PokemonMasterIRL]

Ftilt follow follow up mix ups are the future present.

 

[Célja]

I was having a friendly on Smashville and I was going up against a Luigi. I had my Squirtle out by the ledge and the Luigi trying to get back on vertically. I used my F-Smash on him as he was coming up and I got a stage spike off of it. Does this normally happen?

 

[Aposl]

that would be sweet if it does, good find if yes!

 

[T-block]

It's not unheard of... f-smash does hit slightly below him.

Generally not worth going for it though... you have safer options, as the stage spike is going to be incredibly rare.

 

[Aposl]

d-smash should be better right?

 

[CoonTail]

Only pending on the recovery aposl d-smash does a great job sending them at an downward horizontal angle away so it's uses are usually better for characters with very pre-defined recoveries such as space animals, marth, olimar, ZSS, etc.

Overall though your right d-smash is a better option at the edge majorly unless you really know how to abuse the super armor frames of f-smash.

 

[Geenareeno]

Okay I can kinda see spacies but Olimar and ZSS have tethers. How will D-Smash hit them? And if the Marth isn't ******** he will just aim for below the ledge and snap to it. Honestly the best way I edgeguard as Squirtle is Dair into stagespike. Or just good ol' fair.

 

[Tesh]

bair is alot safer imo for gimping marth, since u can just trade with the weak hit of up b and stagespike him

 

[CoonTail]

Tesh and Geen I was responding to aposl asking if d-smash was a better option which it deffinitly is figuring landing an f-smash with squirtle is no simple task. So if we are talking which SMASH attack would be better here it would be d-smash by a mile whether or not f-smash hits slightly below him to get a 1 in a 1000 lul stage spike.

As far as edgeguarding with d-smash goes obviously b-air is a much safer option, but it isn't like there aren't great oppourtunities to edgeguard with d-smash. Both get-up attacks and ledge-drop air dodge onto stage can be punished if read correctly espeically against characters who suffer bad RCO lag such as spacies and MARTH. D-smash at %'s 90+ can really pack quite some knockback that puts your opp in real bad position. In an attempted ledge hop -> air dodge getting hit will steal their jump which is why I listed ZSS and oli because without a jump they have little to no options, RCO lag factored in and it is a guaranteed punish/ kill based on %. If they get up attack and you punish it you hit them on the very edge of the stage basically sending them as far as d-smash possibly could. Not to mention d-smash's hitbox lasts longer than f-smash so its got a better chance to hit.

This in conjunction with hydroplane mixups makes for a solid edgeguard attempt with some reading and MU knowledge, even tho its situational it heavily favors you if it connects so the overall risk to reward here is high as long as you don't throw d-smash's out recklessly to instead reach inside your toolbox for a real solid punish.

 

[Steeler]

p sure tethers don't have rco lag

 

[CoonTail]

D-smash at %'s 90+ can really pack quite some knockback that puts your opp in real bad position. In an attempted ledge hop -> air dodge getting hit will steal their jump which is why I listed ZSS and oli because without a jump they have little to no options, RCO lag factored in and it is a guaranteed punish/ kill based on %.

steeler ^ this

I know they don't have RCO but they get ****ed if they get read

 

[Steeler]

o

the way you worded it suggested that

 

[CoonTail]

My b I was just saying as a whole you factor in RCO on an attempted ledge hop air dodge and this works like it's legit lol

 

[Tesh]

yea i was just responding to the guy that said dair was a good edgeguard, it is, but not against fast recoveries that will trade with only 1 hit.

 

[CoonTail]

fair enough Tesh I personally find d-air to be a 1-1000 lul edgeguard, I like to f-air/b-air -> second jump d-air for quick gimps off stage but thats as far as d-air goes offstage for me.

F-air/b-air always seem to be solid edgeguard choices for the most part, tethers require more n-air in my opinion.

 

[T-block]

I personally find d-air to be a 1-1000 lul edgeguard

What the hell does this even mean lol

D-air as an edgeguard is sooooo good. I use it as much as f-air/b-air basically, but that's because I'm bad and d-air gives me more room to mess up and still land the hit ;D

 

[CoonTail]

T d-air is deff not close to the edgeguard b-air and f-air are.....if you miss your in a worse position and its much easier to punish if you miss.

There isn't anything about D-air that makes it half the edgeguard that f-air and b-air are. Now granted I am not bashing d-air as a move because it has PLENTY of applications, I jus barely see the application in ledgeguarding unless your following up b-air and f-air

 

[Célja]

One combo I tried to make work with Squirtle was: jab > jab (tripping occurs) > Fsmash. It worked a couple of times but it's not 100% accurate. What's everyone's opinion on this?

 

[CoonTail]

Jab 1 -> Jab 2(with trip) -> regrab is a much better option overall, not to mention I am pretty sure you will overall have better options than f-smash since its one of the much much lesser used moves in squirtle's toolbox.

Jab 1 -> Jab 2(with trip) -> tech chase u-smash would be oh so sexy tho

 

[Tesh]

I thought reflex said we don't have enough time to trip into smashes. Only things I've gotten semi regularly are jab 2 to fair, and jab 2 to uptilt (i rarely jab at low percents cuz im greedy though)