Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)

[foggywho]

I'd love to get in on this group. foggywho@gmail.com

 

[slugmax]

Hey- Does anybody use reverse aerial rush into b reversal water gun, and do you have a better name for it than the 360 no scope?

 

[Life]

Hey- Does anybody use reverse aerial rush into b reversal water gun, and do you have a better name for it than the 360 no scope?

I use it to set up for grabs (thinking of expanding it into a mix up with water gun cancel into drive-by bubble) but don't have a name for it.

 

[slugmax]

I use it to set up for grabs (thinking of expanding it into a mix up with water gun cancel into drive-by bubble) but don't have a name for it.

You can cancel your water gun into bubble? This is sorcery, and how does it work?

 

[Life]

Water gun cancel, as in pressing R while charging.

Lucario players do this all the time since they can cancel stuff into Aura Sphere and then cancel that.

(I don't know if I'm actually technical enough to pull it off LOL--I mean you could just b-reverse bubble, but considering the spacing you'd want for b-reverse water gun, you'd probably whiff and then hurtle at your opponent in lag)

 

[Soft Serve]

Water gun cancel sucks, there's so many frames before you can actually cancel it, and then even more before you can act. SH water gun cancel >move isn't really a thing, I spent a while exploring it. Full hop probably has uses, but they are more telegraphed

 

[slugmax]

Water gun cancel, as in pressing R while charging.

Lucario players do this all the time since they can cancel stuff into Aura Sphere and then cancel that.

(I don't know if I'm actually technical enough to pull it off LOL--I mean you could just b-reverse bubble, but considering the spacing you'd want for b-reverse water gun, you'd probably whiff and then hurtle at your opponent in lag)

Ah, you just mean that. I think i'll stick with b reversal bubble, but i can see the cancel water gun being a cool tomahawk-esque option.

To play squirtle, you need to have mixups on your mixups' mixups?

 

[steelguttey]

yo what do you guys think of the jiggs matchup? i feel like squirt gets bopped by her just because how good she is at stuffing movement

 

[JCOnyx]

Hmm, to be honest I have almost no Jiggs experience in PM. But taking what I've learned from Melee and just some basic theory crafting, our UpSmash should be a brilliant anti-air option that will kill off the top INSANELY early. Bair can space just as efficiently as all of Jiggs other options and our UpAir is no slouch, killing pretty early. Also, our superior movement on the ground and even in the air in some instances should keep us ahead in this matchup.

Our weight should keep us out of Rest combos as well, but we'd have to watch out since our tech rolls suck ass and she could catch us on wake up pretty easily. Our recovery isn't super simple to intercept but being offstage against a Jiggs is never a good situation. That's all I've really got to say on the matter.

 

[Player -0]

Squirtle's wayyy too small to get his movement stuffed, especially when he gets burst movements that are faster than Sonic to relieve pressure. On FoD I could see it becoming a problem but you can always just strike the stage.

I could see hydropivot -> shield and then wait for the aerial. Jiggz can't float back fast enough to avoid our OoS option (typically Nair/Bair/Fair).

For recovering I could see her wrecking us pretty hard. We get a ton more options than other characters though.
- Go low with withdraw (depending on how far out she is to you, good Puffs should be all the way out for this MU I think) then you can WJ, DJ, or Up-B.
- Bubble is always a decent stall/mixup if she's getting really close since it stalls + pushes Puff down which lets you recover for pretty much free.
- If you're high enough to be able to DJ -> withdraw but you get hit by an Up-Air, take it pretty much every time since you can just withdraw/drift back without too much problem.
- Getting to the ground is pretty easy with watergun cancel mixups with B-Reverse/Wavebounce.

Also crouch/crawl is probably amazing, crouch tilt is a quick burst option to jump onto Jiggz if she's trying to come down with a spaced Bair to hit you, if she's floating in the air then Up-Smash/Aerial.

Sounds like a pretty cool MU. Maybe in Squirtle's favor a little bit (theory crafting gooo).

 

[SmashFlux]

Hey, It would be sick if i could get added into the gmail chat too. Thanks! mdbeke13@gmail.com

 

[foggywho]

I've been playing a lot of Squirtle online on my Wii and one of the things that was mentioned to me about my play is that I'm not comboing and capitalizing on openings well enough. I found this video but a lot of the Squirtle videos I've found are about advanced tech. Does anyone have any Squirtle resources that break down his options for combos or chasing? I'm experimenting to try and figure it out but some sort of starting point would help enormously. I'm really enjoying this character though, getting used to applying the tech that I've been practicing on my own is an interesting mental exercise, I feel like I have to fight to not autopilot sometimes but I'm getting there.

 

[Life]

Dsmash is an excellent combo starter that often hits multiple options against a teching opponent so that's good.

Uair->waterfall is a decent simple kill combo but you have to follow their DI well which is tricky.

Dair combos into things but you have to get the last hit which is tricky when you're trying to move all over the place (I frequently touch the ground before it comes out when I'm dairing someone on the ground)

Weak watergun combos into jab, tilts, and grab provided your momentum carries you close enough to them (and a lot of the time they'll panic and you get the followup anyway cause they mess up)

Withdraw combos into aerials nicely but you can figure that out yourself. It's not hard, just hit them and then hit the c stick and you're 90% good LOL.

That's the gist of it, beyond that just play people a lot and you'll figure some stuff out on your own.

 

[foggywho]

Thanks, and yeah it sounds like experience is a key part of the equation. I'm going to my first local tournament Saturday and I'm hoping to meet people to practice with in person. Online, though, is helpful but laggy.

 

[Life]

Thanks, and yeah it sounds like experience is a key part of the equation. I'm going to my first local tournament Saturday and I'm hoping to meet people to practice with in person. Online, though, is helpful but laggy.

Online is great for getting your mental game down (as they said when Brawl was new, "wi-fi makes you psychic") but I'd abstain from it for a couple days before the tourney and just practice movement/comboing low-level CPUs for a little bit. Online play really makes it harder to move around. (Learned that the hard way at a Melee tournament a couple weekends ago. Don't EVER practice movement on Dolphin LOL).

(And, of course, accept that you aren't going to do well at your first tournament anyway, since you'll be facing people with much more experience. Don't worry too much, just have fun!)

 

[Vulvasaur]

@ Wave Dan Landon and @ Vulvasaur added

@ Life and @CranberryGod need your email

I can't find the group, I've never used google plus before. Are you sure you added me?

 

[foggywho]

Online is great for getting your mental game down (as they said when Brawl was new, "wi-fi makes you psychic") but I'd abstain from it for a couple days before the tourney and just practice movement/comboing low-level CPUs for a little bit. Online play really makes it harder to move around. (Learned that the hard way at a Melee tournament a couple weekends ago. Don't EVER practice movement on Dolphin LOL).

(And, of course, accept that you aren't going to do well at your first tournament anyway, since you'll be facing people with much more experience. Don't worry too much, just have fun!)

I fully expect to get stomped, I'm not worried about it. It'll be a learning experience.

I hadn't thought about abstaining from online a few days before but it makes sense; there was definitely a weird change, in particular to Wavedashing (which I STILL don't have down for Wifi, those shoulder button differences are weird.) Squirtle's movement being key to it's playstyle is probably an even bigger reason to make sure I'm not gimped by a Wifi mindset.

I'd heard somewhere for Melee that Training mode AI set to evade with alternate DI for combo practice. Is that the same for PM? Does the CPU always DI the same?

 

[Daftatt]

Water gun cancel sucks, there's so many frames before you can actually cancel it, and then even more before you can act. SH water gun cancel >move isn't really a thing, I spent a while exploring it. Full hop probably has uses, but they are more telegraphed

First off, you can cancel watergun after 15 frames of startup animation, so on frame 16. This frame has a visual cue which is the charging smoke effect from charging, it's actually the first frame of charging and also the first frame where if you were no longer holding B you would go into the firing animation which lasts 4 frames.

Slingjump: 1 Frame of Shellshift, 4 frames of jumpsquat
Watergun: 15 frames startup, 8 frames of cancel endlag

On a shorthop this leaves you a 9 frame window of being able to execute aerial inputs. Which if done within near FRAME PERFECTLY (with room for error of only 1 frame) lets you cancel a shorthop watergun into the lowest possible aerial bubble, which is a really good aerial bubble to get because you will land and be able to act very soon after the last hitbox ends (about 13 frames). I've practiced this some and IT'S really hard (20SS level stuff), but is another trick in his bag.

That input sequence looks like this.

(Out of dash left)
(frame 1)
(frame 2,3) //assume 2
(frame 3-6) //hold softly the direction you want to face for the B-turaround
(frame 7. hold 15 frames)
(frame 22 or 23) //assume 22
(frame 31)
GROUND ACTION (frame 45)

Thats some nutty tech skill.
Also you can cancel watergun charge with (Z) which I think in preferable to (R).

I actually have a couple uses for watergun cancel. To pull these off you need to do a slingjump b-turnaround watergun charge, so squirtle will be flying through the air facing forwards.

Full hop slingjump watergun cancel is best used as a threat when a spacie is offstage but high enough to recover onto stage (a good setup for this situation is mid-high percent D-throw), they will see that you're charging watergun for the edgeguard and will try to side-b instead of up-B for fear of getting soaked. Cancel while in the air and waveland backwards to hold stage control and to punish the side-B, usually with d-smash.

Short hop slingjump watergun cancel is a simple tomahawk fake. you slingjump at them from across the stage and act like you're going to soak them to create an opening. They shield, you watergun cancel then land and grab. You can also set this up with

You can always waveland out of shorthop watergun as well.

 

[slugmax]

@ D Daftatt As much as I don't like to show my ignorance, I gotta ask: Why do all that work over just a b reversal bubble?

 

[Life]

@ D Daftatt As much as I don't like to show my ignorance, I gotta ask: Why do all that work over just a b reversal bubble?

If I understand correctly, b-reverse bubble out of shell sling has Squirtle moving backwards whilst bubbling forwards, which is a pretty strong defensive fakeout. (Unless you meant b-turnaround bubble which is much more similar to Daftatt's sequence. Yeah, I think that's what you meant. Don't mind me.) Shellsling into water gun cancel into bubble would have Squirtle bubble forwards and move forwards to follow it up offensively. Addtionally, one of the boons of the difficulty of this sequence is that it takes so long that you get the lowest possible aerial bubble, which is convenient for reasons Daftatt already mentioned.

Thanks for the research BTW.

 

[Soft Serve]

First off, you can cancel watergun after 15 frames of startup animation, so on frame 16. This frame has a visual cue which is the charging smoke effect from charging, it's actually the first frame of charging and also the first frame where if you were no longer holding B you would go into the firing animation which lasts 4 frames.

Slingjump: 1 Frame of Shellshift, 4 frames of jumpsquat
Watergun: 15 frames startup, 8 frames of cancel endlag

On a shorthop this leaves you a 9 frame window of being able to execute aerial inputs. Which if done within near FRAME PERFECTLY (with room for error of only 1 frame) lets you cancel a shorthop watergun into the lowest possible aerial bubble, which is a really good aerial bubble to get because you will land and be able to act very soon after the last hitbox ends (about 13 frames). I've practiced this some and IT'S really hard (20SS level stuff), but is another trick in his bag.

That input sequence looks like this.

(Out of dash left)
(frame 1)
(frame 2,3) //assume 2
(frame 3-6) //hold softly the direction you want to face for the B-turaround
(frame 7. hold 15 frames)
(frame 22 or 23) //assume 22
(frame 31)
GROUND ACTION (frame 45)

Thats some nutty tech skill.
Also you can cancel watergun charge with (Z) which I think in preferable to (R).

I actually have a couple uses for watergun cancel. To pull these off you need to do a slingjump b-turnaround watergun charge, so squirtle will be flying through the air facing forwards.

Full hop slingjump watergun cancel is best used as a threat when a spacie is offstage but high enough to recover onto stage (a good setup for this situation is mid-high percent D-throw), they will see that you're charging watergun for the edgeguard and will try to side-b instead of up-B for fear of getting soaked. Cancel while in the air and waveland backwards to hold stage control and to punish the side-B, usually with d-smash.

Short hop slingjump watergun cancel is a simple tomahawk fake. you slingjump at them from across the stage and act like you're going to soak them to create an opening. They shield, you watergun cancel then land and grab. You can also set this up with

You can always waveland out of shorthop watergun as well.

This is so much work and is super cool but what does it actually accomplish? I just feel there are a lot of better, less technically demanding options that cover more scenarios or cover the same ones better.

 

[Wave Dan Landon]

This is so much work and is super cool but what does it actually accomplish? I just feel there are a lot of better, less technically demanding options that cover more scenarios or cover the same ones better.

Every bag of tricks has its more favored tools

Against great opponents they will become dull

one must go deeper and deeper into the bag for things less worn

The unknown is rarely countered

The more variables for the enemy to consider the better your chances they guess wrong

 

[Jaur]

Except you'll practically never be able to execute that extremely situational, frame-perfect maneuver, especially against opponents who have any idea what they're doing. This character sub fetishizes naming obscure, useless tech instead of compiling frame data and talking about actual, practical things Squirtle can do (the fact that he has the second longest wavedash in the game is completely ignored in favor of coming up with more overly complex nonsense).

 

[Player -0]

Frame perfect tech is executed all the time and I'm pretty sure this isn't frame perfect.

Besides, everyone knows that Squirtle sucks now that he can't turnaround while using withdraw.

 

[PlateProp]

Except you'll practically never be able to execute that extremely situational, frame-perfect maneuver, especially against opponents who have any idea what they're doing. This character sub fetishizes naming obscure, useless tech instead of compiling frame data and talking about actual, practical things Squirtle can do (the fact that he has the second longest wavedash in the game is completely ignored in favor of coming up with more overly complex nonsense).

This guy acting like more than possibly 10 people can even play Squirtle decently

Soo much lol

 

[Zwarm]

Except you'll practically never be able to execute that extremely situational, frame-perfect maneuver, especially against opponents who have any idea what they're doing. This character sub fetishizes naming obscure, useless tech instead of compiling frame data and talking about actual, practical things Squirtle can do (the fact that he has the second longest wavedash in the game is completely ignored in favor of coming up with more overly complex nonsense).

Practical Squirtle discussion happens more in the Google Hangouts chat than in here

 

[PlateProp]

Practical Squirtle discussion happens more in the Google Hangouts chat than in here

Zwarm dont lie to them

 

[Life]

Practical Squirtle discussion happens more in the Google Hangouts chat than in here

Which is kind of silly because it means you need to join the secret club and learn the secret handshake to get that info rather than having it readily available in a forum thread, but meh.

 

[PlateProp]

Which is kind of silly because it means you need to join the secret club and learn the secret handshake to get that info rather than having it readily available in a forum thread, but meh.

Just go teach yourself squirtle like everyone else

99% of the Squirtle chat is just this anyways

 

[Zwarm]

Which is kind of silly because it means you need to join the secret club and learn the secret handshake to get that info rather than having it readily available in a forum thread, but meh.

It's not a secret club, it's just easier to talk to people about stuff in real time instead of discussing it slowly on the forums.

 

[slugmax]

It's not a secret club, it's just easier to talk to people about stuff in real time instead of discussing it slowly on the forums.

If it's not a secret club, then can I get added, please?
slugmax.boes@gmail.com

 

[Wave Dan Landon]

Got featured a bunch in the hilight reel from my last weekly tournament.

I look pretty good, so I hope you guys check it out.

 

[Zwarm]

If it's not a secret club, then can I get added, please?
slugmax.boes@gmail.com

I dunno how to/if I'm able to add people. @ D Daftatt does that usually

Got featured a bunch in the hilight reel from my last weekly tournament.

I look pretty good, so I hope you guys check it out.

Looks more like the "Wave Dan Landon Highlight Reel Feat. Some Others"

 

[HM07/Waterfall]

Hey guys,
I'm pretty new to smashboards, but I've been maining the Squirtman for a very long time. I feel that 3.5 Squirtle made me a much better player fundamentally. But I know I'm not the best. So I was hoing to get some info from you guys :D

I do well in my local tournaments, but the MARTH MU is killing me so hard. I get chaingrabed at low percents and then tippered all day long. Then when I'm off the ledge (below the ledge I should say) I get countered with my recovery and sent flying. (Even when I appear to sweetspot) There are other problems with this MU, but these two things are what I struggle the most with against playing against a Marth.

Does anyone know what I can do against these things. I know I can crouch under Marths standing grab, (Not sure about dashing grab) but I've tried many DI options and nothing seems to work. (I probably just suck...) And the only thing I can think of to not struggle with the counter off the stage is perhaps teching the wall right when marth hits me with counter. But that is pretty hard to time.

I feel like this MU isn't that bad. (even though these things make it very frustrating) Squirtle has the combo game and mobility to bait out attacks from Marth and deal massive damage. But once I find myself in the situations above I die.

Anythoughts????

Also I've seen a google group for Squirtle mains. I'd love to get in on that. my e-mail is warchesikjoseph@yahoo.com

 

[Player -0]

Marth has an advantage in the MU because of his Sword and stuff.

for avoiding CG's and stuff do down and away.

 

[Daftatt]

I dunno how to/if I'm able to add people. @ D Daftatt does that usually
"

Scrub the kitchen Cinderelli Clean the attic Cinderelli

@ slugmax
@CranberryGod
@ foggywho
@ SmashFlux
ADDED

@ HM07/Waterfall
You need to accept my invite to google hangouts before i can add you to chat

@ Vulvasaur
Your email doesn't seem to work, what was it again?

Got featured a bunch in the hilight reel from my last weekly tournament.

I look pretty good, so I hope you guys check it out.

Your squirtle is dope man

 

[HM07/Waterfall]

@ Player -0 Yeah I've been saying for a while that Marth has the advantage in the MU, but I'd like hope that its not as bad. If you DI down and away. Can you tech? Or do you simply get your footing back to do a role or something?
@ D Daftatt I had made a mistake a few minutes ago regarding my e-mail the one I use for Google is josephwarchesik@yahoo.com (Sorry for the hassel)

 

[Zwarm]

<3 you Daftatt

 

[PlateProp]

@ D Daftatt can you just make a new hangout? 85% of these people arent even gonna show and it would be nice not to have the list be so cluttered, along with the fact that we hardly even actually talk about squirtle in the current one

Hey guys,
I'm pretty new to smashboards, but I've been maining the Squirtman for a very long time. I feel that 3.5 Squirtle made me a much better player fundamentally.

I find it funny that you say this after you spent a week complaining that he made your fundamentals worse on facebook.

 

[Zwarm]

I still think Skype would be easier.