Zwarm
Smash Hero
I don't think you can effectively CC it either unless you're Bowser
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Squirtle Squad (General Disc.)
- Thread starter McNinja
- Start date
Jamwa
Smash Champion
So what's the Matchup against Fox in your opinion? I find that Fox has much lower risk for a much higher reward against Squirtle and that Squirtle has a hard time comboing Fox at low percentages. I feel that the saving grace is gimping Fox but it'd hard to get fox into that position when your grabs don't combo into anything and you main means of getting Fox into the air is Dtilt and Ctilt which are heavily CCable.
Someone please teach me the way.
All I've been doing is zoning with Water Gun and Bubble and just slowly getting percentage up until I can kill with Fair or a lucky gimp :/
Someone please teach me the way.
All I've been doing is zoning with Water Gun and Bubble and just slowly getting percentage up until I can kill with Fair or a lucky gimp :/
Yams Everywhere
Smash Apprentice
I just do the ditto.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
Tech chase with down smashes, that's like the only advice I can give you lol
I just go Zelda
I just go Zelda
PlateProp
Smash Master
Don't get hit basically.
Player -0
Smash Hero
Doesn't Fox have pretty much safe Up-Smash on shield unless you shield DI -> WD OoS really well?
Best way to play seems like it would be to camp until you use mobility to snag a grab and if you miss it you're safe anyway.
Best way to play seems like it would be to camp until you use mobility to snag a grab and if you miss it you're safe anyway.
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
The Fox MU was a lot easier in 2.6b with that downsmash. 2.6 downsmash.... #NeverForget
This is my take on the spacie MUs:
I also have a hard time with the Fox/Falco MU. The solutions I came up with all basically boil down to whatPlateProp Isaiah said. Usually not getting hit with Squirtle is relatively easy considering his height and horizontal mobility. However Fox is kinda fast and most of his moves don't care how low you can duck, so it's easier said that done to not get hit by Fox. Then he and Falco have the laser camp option, which also don't care about how low you can duck. And like you guys said, they are really hard to combo at low %s.
One thing that I think Squirtle has going for him in these MUs is his up air, since Squirtle can short hop up air waveland. With a falling SHFFL up air you can start an up air string around 43% for both Fox and Falco (unless their DI is on point, which case they'll need to be around 55%). Each up air does 9 - 11% (can't remember off the top of my head), so with the wavelands you're almost guaranteed to get them around 75% regardless of their DI and what hitbox of up air you use. If you start using the weak hitbox of up air at higher %s (the hitbox above and behind Squirtle late in the animation) you can easily combo them to death, but it's pretty difficult to pull off with DI mixups.
Other than that you just have to be quick and clean in the neutral game and have a strong defense (which I know is blanket advice, but it's true) and make him respect your armor, since medium+ armor can eat all of Fox's and Falco's aerials until high %s (I don't know how early the second hit of Fox's up air can break armor though). Spacie players frequently complain to me about that. You can start off by eating attacks with armor into a hit, and once conditioned you can start straight spacing with the armor, so they don't know if you're going to eat their attack or simply out-space it. Armor gets in their head since it's an ever-present threat/counter to some of the bread-and-butter spacing options without you having to actually commit to taking away those options; you're biggest strength in the MU IMO is that you CAN, but you don't have to. The mental aspect of the game is where amor shines the brightest.
Always remember that species spawn at death %. It's hard to get them off stage, but once they are they you have an arsenal of gimping options. Backthrow offstage is really freaking good at low %s.
And like Zwarm said, downsmash tech chases are still pretty good. I'm still a student when it comes to this MU, so I'm glad I have people to discuss it with.
This is my take on the spacie MUs:
I also have a hard time with the Fox/Falco MU. The solutions I came up with all basically boil down to what
One thing that I think Squirtle has going for him in these MUs is his up air, since Squirtle can short hop up air waveland. With a falling SHFFL up air you can start an up air string around 43% for both Fox and Falco (unless their DI is on point, which case they'll need to be around 55%). Each up air does 9 - 11% (can't remember off the top of my head), so with the wavelands you're almost guaranteed to get them around 75% regardless of their DI and what hitbox of up air you use. If you start using the weak hitbox of up air at higher %s (the hitbox above and behind Squirtle late in the animation) you can easily combo them to death, but it's pretty difficult to pull off with DI mixups.
Other than that you just have to be quick and clean in the neutral game and have a strong defense (which I know is blanket advice, but it's true) and make him respect your armor, since medium+ armor can eat all of Fox's and Falco's aerials until high %s (I don't know how early the second hit of Fox's up air can break armor though). Spacie players frequently complain to me about that. You can start off by eating attacks with armor into a hit, and once conditioned you can start straight spacing with the armor, so they don't know if you're going to eat their attack or simply out-space it. Armor gets in their head since it's an ever-present threat/counter to some of the bread-and-butter spacing options without you having to actually commit to taking away those options; you're biggest strength in the MU IMO is that you CAN, but you don't have to. The mental aspect of the game is where amor shines the brightest.
Always remember that species spawn at death %. It's hard to get them off stage, but once they are they you have an arsenal of gimping options. Backthrow offstage is really freaking good at low %s.
And like Zwarm said, downsmash tech chases are still pretty good. I'm still a student when it comes to this MU, so I'm glad I have people to discuss it with.
Jamwa
Smash Champion
Withdraw gets beaten by Bair at like 13% :/
I will experiment with this Uair technology though.
Are you sure they can't just CC the [1st] Uair and stop your approach entirely?
I will experiment with this Uair technology though.
Are you sure they can't just CC the [1st] Uair and stop your approach entirely?
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JCOnyx
Smash Ace
PlateProp
Smash Master
But for some reason Withdraw can go through Falco dair until like 50ish% xD
Jamwa
Smash Champion
you're crazy thats a lie
Zwarm
Smash Hero
Literally for Falco I just wait until he shoots lasers (he's Falco, he will) and then withdraw.
PlateProp
Smash Master
Can you tell the PMBR that Falco's design is dumb
Srsly, all Falco does is Lazor till approach, then shine > dair
I honestly laugh when people tell me that Squirtle is just a big gimmick now because of Falco/Fox
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
Withdraw is light armor. I said medium+ armor.
~Dad~
part time gay dad
lol
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Flaco has the single most oafish design of any character in the game, agreed. The most easymode spike in the game, jump cancelable frame 1 combo starter that you can't CC and is positive on shield, and to top it all off an extremely fast infinite range intangible laser that causes hitstun and is spammable with no endlag when SHFFLd (that's short hop fast fall laser). Also his incredibly fast D-tilt (and awesome CC abilities) can kill light characters at around 100%, wtf? THE ONLY thing stopping flaco is of course his recovery, but just because he is balanced as a character by this doesn't make his onstage game less brainless.
Whenever a melee vet complains about gimmicks it's obviously just a case of them not being able to process new stuff, because smash does, and always will, run on gimmicks.
That all being said, squirtle v flaco can go really well for squirtle if he doesn't blindly approach on the ground and get a dair to the face. Seriously, you have to get in on flaco from the air or punish him in the air with hydroplanes, hydroplaning while he is on the ground is suicide unless the flaco player sucks.
Short hop sling jump b-turnaround bubble (bubble blitz) is really top against flaco, wait for him to be landing with his laser then go in with it.
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PlateProp
Smash Master
It just bothers me when people call Squirtle gimmicky, but say that Fox/Falco aren't.
~Dad~
part time gay dad
Shine is a gimmick.
or something
everything is a gimmick idfk
or something
everything is a gimmick idfk
Zwarm
Smash Hero
There are enough spacie killers in this game that I don't mind how they are. Squirtle is just not one of them.
Yams Everywhere
Smash Apprentice
Everybody punishes spacies so hard...
It makes me sad
It makes me sad
PlateProp
Smash Master
Are you tripping
Squirtle gives falco a very bad day, and if you play smart will go even with Fax.
~Dad~
part time gay dad
lol okay plate
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PlateProp
Smash Master
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
PlateProp over here feeling numb.
PlateProp
Smash Master
The feelings are real
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Squirtle kills space its true.
MrHazuki
Smash Ace
Don't forget that Bubble is a sweet ass gimp move on spacies. My best tip against Fox is to watch out for that upsmash.
Yams Everywhere
Smash Apprentice
And for grabs. And for shine. And for everything. Fox is pretty dangerous.
Sir Skaro
Smash Apprentice
I played ZeRo's Fox and Rat's Wolf at TBH4. Both Fox's and Wolf's punish games on Squirtle are plain ridiculous unless you have the SDI of a god. I felt like I had a chance though because the neutral game I feel is pretty even and Squirtle also has a good punish game on both the MUs. The thing that got under Rat's skin the most was the DI mixups in the combos and the finishers. Being creative in the punish game goes a long way. Also, forward throw off the edge -> drop zone forward air is a destructive DI mixup that didn't fail to kill once.
One of Squirtle's biggest advantages is the offstage game. Squirtle can recover against Fox/Wolf fairly easily, but both of them just die if their offstage against Squirtle. Just wall them off the stage with bairs and nairs until you have an opportunity to bubble, forward air, or drop zone nair.
Those were just my impressions after playing really freaking good Wolfs and Foxes for a bit. I'll need to play more, high-level spacies for a better, non-theorized analysis.
Also, I got 49th/333. It was last stock game three against a Charizard. Side-B'd to my death. You know how it is.
One of Squirtle's biggest advantages is the offstage game. Squirtle can recover against Fox/Wolf fairly easily, but both of them just die if their offstage against Squirtle. Just wall them off the stage with bairs and nairs until you have an opportunity to bubble, forward air, or drop zone nair.
Those were just my impressions after playing really freaking good Wolfs and Foxes for a bit. I'll need to play more, high-level spacies for a better, non-theorized analysis.
Also, I got 49th/333. It was last stock game three against a Charizard. Side-B'd to my death. You know how it is.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
^placed higher than me and I didn't even touch Squirtle.
I'm getting back on the Squirtle train though, gonna be better than ever. As long as I don't suicide of course
I'm getting back on the Squirtle train though, gonna be better than ever. As long as I don't suicide of course
PlateProp
Smash Master
You gon die Zwarm. It's something you have to accept.
Zwarm
Smash Hero
Oh trust me, I'm aware
PlateProp
Smash Master
Good.
Now go convince the rest of the PMBR that it would be a good idea to change Squirtle's taunt where he spins in his shell to one where he lays down and kicks back all cocky like instead.
Daftatt
"float like a puffball, sting like a knee"
Technically, I'm pretty sure you can cancel the SFX from all of his taunts into teeter using hydrotaunt. If it's not the effect you wanted maybe you're you're you're you're you're too slow! COME COME COME COME COME COME ON! STEP IT UP!
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Cloudburst
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Jul 5, 2014
- Messages
- 53
Does anyone have tips against Sonic? His spin move priority is crippling, and his dashdance is very effective against hydroplaned and shellshifted and slingjamping everything.
Jamwa
Smash Champion
oh man this MU is odd
Bubble and water gun are the best moves in this MU for stopping sonic from approaching
do not try to bair the spring unless you hit the spring with the first hitbox of your bair because it will beat bair for some reason
you have to DI uair or you gon die a lot. DI throws away from sonic and down/up or he will be able to follow up all the time
DI down and shield/tech his spin combos until you feel comfortable enough to learn the openings
dont jump up into his Fair spike/meteor (any1 know what it is?) when recovering
withdraw will only beat his spins under at 10% or under i think, otherwise you will both be hit away from each other (not good usually)
shellsling nair is good for catching sonic offstage/offguard
ftilt/ctilt are good quick moves to hit sonic away out of his spin
dsmash is an amazing punish if sonic gets too predictable, but it is very easy to punish
uair -> waterfall seems to be semi-legit at certain percents, i just remember killing with it a lot so know that the option is there for early kills
I could talk to you about playstyle but it really depends on how the opponent sonic is playing. I feel sonic is akin to squirtle in that some players will just try to bum-rush with his silly moves (kinda like withdraw) and the MU will become different to someone who is actually playing a bait/punish, shield-pressure, or spacing oriented game.