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[Deleted member]

Bayo is the only character that needs nerfing. Rosa and Cloud are very good but have enough flaws and bad MUs to not be a problem.

Who does Cloud have a truly notable disadvantage against besides and possibly ?

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Who does Cloud have a truly notable disadvantage against besides and possibly ?

Bayo and Captain Falcon are the only other two I would say

 

[Deleted member]

Bayo and Captain Falcon are the only other two I would say

I can vouch. I despise the MU.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

I can vouch. I despise the MU.

I can also vouch actually I can vouch with Falcon for any character the running in and rolling back and the stupid up air strings besides little mac and Ike no character has bought me more salt than Captain Falcon

 

[ZephyrZ]

I'd sure like a Cloud nerf, but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't get one.

And I wouldn't want something to huge. Just something to tone him down a tiny bit.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

I'd sure like a Cloud nerf, but it's not the end of the world if he doesn't get one.

And I wouldn't want something to huge. Just something to tone him down a tiny bit.

Um NAIR that move is so janky

 

[Quantumpen]

For clarification, I wasn't arguing for Rosa being nerfed -- just saying I think she's a likely target in a future patch. I don't think she's nearly as annoying to deal with as the other top tiers, even on my subs -- and she isn't consistently getting incredible results.

From a theory perspective I do think a slight nerf to Luma's knockback on u-air is warranted. She can do some janky bayo crap with it -- albeit far less consistently than bayo.

I personally feel that Cloud is a very overrated character, and probably won't actually settle in top 5. If anything, I would like to see nair come out a little slower and another slight knockback nerf to limit cross-slash. But honeslty, I think he's fine the way he is, I think many characters can deal with him.

 

[420quickscoper]

Yeah, Bayonetta's gonna get the nerf hammer inevitably. After that, I think Diddy Kong might be the best character in the game honestly.

And I could see Mewtwo being top 5 sometime in the future, honestly. It all depends on how much people are willing to further his metagame and get high placings with him.

 

[mobilisq]

sup guys, i finally watched the pound 6 VODs and i'm dropping by to say what has invariably already been said many times over:

OH MY GOD, ABADANGO

 

[Quantumpen]

More importantly though, the game will be in state where a very large portion of the cast is competitively viable and the difference between characters is much smaller than has historically been the case in smash games. After Bayo is dealt with, I think we'll be in a situation where something like 20-25 characters have the potential to win a major. That's a beautiful thing, you rarely get that kind of balance in a game.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

For clarification, I wasn't arguing for Rosa being nerfed -- just saying I think she's a likely target in a future patch. I don't think she's nearly as annoying to deal with as the other top tiers, even on my subs -- and she isn't consistently getting incredible results.

From a theory perspective I do think a slight nerf to Luma's knockback on u-air is warranted. She can do some janky bayo crap with it -- albeit far less consistently than bayo.

I personally feel that Cloud is a very overrated character, and probably won't actually settle in top 5. If anything, I would like to see nair come out a little slower and another slight knockback nerf to limit cross-slash. But honeslty, I think he's fine the way he is, I think many characters can deal with him.

Exactly if they did that to nair I would be so happy limit cross-slash is super stupid but I'm okay if they don't touch it

Yeah, Bayonetta's gonna get the nerf hammer inevitably. After that, I think Diddy Kong might be the best character in the game honestly.

And I could see Mewtwo being top 5 sometime in the future, honestly. It all depends on how much people are willing to further his metagame and get high placings with him.

Wooooo back up high tier right top tier pushing it top 5 ridiculous (but not out of the realm of possibilities) chill man

 

[420quickscoper]

Exactly if they did that to nair I would be so happy limit cross-slash is super stupid but I'm okay if they don't touch it
Wooooo back up high tier right top tier pushing it top 5 ridiculous (but not out of the realm of possibilities) chill man

Top 5 might be a stretch but Top 10 isn't. Trust me. I once thought it was a stretch, too.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Top 5 might be a stretch but Top 10 isn't. Trust me. I once thought it was a stretch, too.

Lol maybe not I now he has the potential to be top 10 for sure if Bayo, Cloud, Rosa, Pikachu, Ryu, and Sonic get hit with the nerf hammer I can see him bing top five

 

[420quickscoper]

Lol maybe not I now he has the potential to be top 10 for sure if Bayo, Cloud, Rosa, Pikachu, Ryu, and Sonic get hit with the nerf hammer I can see him bing top five

Mewtwo > Pikachu, by the way.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Mewtwo > Pikachu, by the way.

Really but I'm not complaining

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can pretty much say that Cloud's poor recovery is the main thing that would likely keep him away from the top 5 spot.

 

[ShadowKing]

I can pretty much say that Cloud's poor recovery is the main thing that would likely keep him away from the top 5 spot.

Agreed because the characters can spike or meteor will kill cloud off if it isnt a limit recovery.

 

[---]

Am starting to run out of ideas for which character to look at for the match up thread, there are still some upper mid tier characters, but you hardly ever fight them/are loyalist characters so I'm not sure what would generate the most discussion. Bayonetta/Corrin I'm trying to hold off on a bit longer.

/

These guys I'm trying to put a higher priority on. Any preferences?

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Am starting to run out of ideas for which character to look at for the match up thread, there are still some upper mid tier characters, but you hardly ever fight them/are loyalist characters so I'm not sure what would generate the most discussion. Bayonetta/Corrin I'm trying to hold off on a bit longer.

/

These guys I'm trying to put a higher priority on. Any preferences?

I don't know if we are discussing in three's but I would say
1.Toon link
2.Ike
3.R.O.B

 

[ShadowKing]

Am starting to run out of ideas for which character to look at for the match up thread, there are still some upper mid tier characters, but you hardly ever fight them/are loyalist characters so I'm not sure what would generate the most discussion. Bayonetta/Corrin I'm trying to hold off on a bit longer.

/

These guys I'm trying to put a higher priority on. Any preferences?

i would say marth/lucy and ike becasue at the moment these characters seem to have a even matchup against m2.
for example marth/lucy jab combo and ikes up throw combo.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Am starting to run out of ideas for which character to look at for the match up thread, there are still some upper mid tier characters, but you hardly ever fight them/are loyalist characters so I'm not sure what would generate the most discussion. Bayonetta/Corrin I'm trying to hold off on a bit longer.

/

These guys I'm trying to put a higher priority on. Any preferences?

I do know that Rosalina's sub-forum will begin to analyze the Mewtwo match-up again for this week. With all of Mewtwo's changes, it'll be interesting to see how much that match-up has changed.

 

[Krysco]

Am starting to run out of ideas for which character to look at for the match up thread, there are still some upper mid tier characters, but you hardly ever fight them/are loyalist characters so I'm not sure what would generate the most discussion. Bayonetta/Corrin I'm trying to hold off on a bit longer.

/

These guys I'm trying to put a higher priority on. Any preferences?

Hmm, Toon Link seems to be a constantly rising threat. The FE trio holds some interest to me, especially Marth with his extended tipper hitboxes. Also have personal interest in reading about the Peach MU since my sparring partner is a Peach main.

So from most to least
/

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Hmm, Toon Link seems to be a constantly rising threat. The FE trio holds some interest to me, especially Marth with his extended tipper hitboxes. Also have personal interest in reading about the Peach MU since my sparring partner is a Peach main.

So from most to least
/

Yeah I'm constantly having trouble with the Marth matchup I don't have trouble with Peach the matchup just feels weird lol

 

[ShadowKing]

Hmm, Toon Link seems to be a constantly rising threat. The FE trio holds some interest to me, especially Marth with his extended tipper hitboxes. Also have personal interest in reading about the Peach MU since my sparring partner is a Peach main.

So from most to least
/

yes toon link is a rising threat but m2 is faster in the air and ground

Yeah I'm constantly having trouble with the Marth matchup I don't have trouble with Peach the matchup just feels weird lol

not just marth lucy too because shes roy and marth combined.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

yes toon link is a rising threat but m2 is faster in the air and ground

not just marth lucy too because shes roy and marth combined.

Gg maybe Lucy just never felt like a threat and she can't be Roy she doesn't have his run speed or air speed or combos or broken Fsmash but I guess if we discussed Marth matchup we'd have to do Lucy to so no Biggs

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Lucina's sword is more balanced than Marth's, so I often find it better to treat them as separate characters.

 

[ShadowKing]

Gg maybe Lucy just never felt like a threat and she can't be Roy she doesn't have his run speed or air speed or combos or broken Fsmash but I guess if we discussed Marth matchup we'd have to do Lucy to so no Biggs

well what i mean is that marth is the tipper and roy is close to the handle and lucy is a combination. but like you said lucy and marth are the same character so it would make sense to do a match up thread with them together.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Different attack hitboxes don't equal the same character though. Lucina doesn't need any sweetspots for the best results, while Marth does. If Lucina was just a palette swap, then I would've merged her with Marth.

Similarly, because Dark Pit has some moveset differences, I treat him as a separate character as well, instead of merging him with the Pit match-up discussions. Basically, palette swaps do not get their own threads, but separate characters sure do.

 

[ShadowKing]

Different attack hitboxes don't equal the same character though. Lucina doesn't need any sweetspots for the best results, while Marth does. If Lucina was just a palette swap, then I would've merged her with Marth.

Similarly, because Dark Pit has some moveset differences, I treat him as a separate character as well, instead of merging him with the Pit match-up discussions. Basically, palette swaps do not get their own threads, but separate characters sure do.

ahh i see what you mean now. yeah i agree there should be different matchup threads for them.

 

[Krysco]

Yeah I'm constantly having trouble with the Marth matchup I don't have trouble with Peach the matchup just feels weird lol

My sparring partner has a Marth although he's just one of his many pocket characters. I've yet to find the mu difficult although it is more troublesome than his Peach. I find no difficulty in the Peach mu, I'd just like to see what other M2 players have to say on the matter since it's easily my most played one.

yes toon link is a rising threat but m2 is faster in the air and ground

not just marth lucy too because shes roy and marth combined.

...You can kinda say that about a large portion of the cast. Actually, just looked at Kurogane and only 6 characters are faster than M2 on the ground when dashing and only 2 are faster in the air and not a single character can claim to be faster than M2 in both departments. Walking increases the amount of characters faster than M2 on the ground (including Tink) and both walking and air acceleration need to be taken into account but point being M2 is faster than every character either on the ground or in the air, if not, both.

---

As for Lucina and Marth, I'd be fine with them being put into a single thread. They share the same frame data and attributes (run, walk, air, fall speeds, weight, gravity) and nearly similar hurt and hitboxes (in terms of where they hit, not their power) with Lucina's being ever so slightly smaller in both cases. They have similar gameplans I'd imagine. Maybe not if Lucina doesn't out range us. The main difference to talk about would be if we can easily avoid Marth's tippers. If yes than Lucina is likely the bigger threat since she can kill us earlier than Marth can if he is stuck landing sourspots on us.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

My sparring partner has a Marth although he's just one of his many pocket characters. I've yet to find the mu difficult although it is more troublesome than his Peach. I find no difficulty in the Peach mu, I'd just like to see what other M2 players have to say on the matter since it's easily my most played one.


...You can kinda say that about a large portion of the cast. Actually, just looked at Kurogane and only 6 characters are faster than M2 on the ground when dashing and only 2 are faster in the air and not a single character can claim to be faster than M2 in both departments. Walking increases the amount of characters faster than M2 on the ground (including Tink) and both walking and air acceleration need to be taken into account but point being M2 is faster than every character either on the ground or in the air, if not, both.

---

As for Lucina and Marth, I'd be fine with them being put into a single thread. They share the same frame data and attributes (run, walk, air, fall speeds, weight, gravity) and nearly similar hurt and hitboxes (in terms of where they hit, not their power) with Lucina's being ever so slightly smaller in both cases. They have similar gameplans I'd imagine. Maybe not if Lucina doesn't out range us. The main difference to talk about would be if we can easily avoid Marth's tippers. If yes than Lucina is likely the bigger threat since she can kill us earlier than Marth can if he is stuck landing sourspots on us.

It's not the fact it's that hard it's more of the fact that he outranges ous so I can find it hard to get in

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

...You can kinda say that about a large portion of the cast. Actually, just looked at Kurogane and only 6 characters are faster than M2 on the ground when dashing and only 2 are faster in the air and not a single character can claim to be faster than M2 in both departments. Walking increases the amount of characters faster than M2 on the ground (including Tink) and both walking and air acceleration need to be taken into account but point being M2 is faster than every character either on the ground or in the air, if not, both.

When equipment is added onto the equation, things can change before you know it. Also, when Cloud is in Limit Break mode, his air speed outranks everyone (including Yoshi), and he does outrun Mewtwo as well; Cloud becomes the 5th fastest runner while in Limit Break mode.

 

[Krysco]

It's not the fact it's that hard it's more of the fact that he outranges ous so I can find it hard to get in

Ah okay. That makes sense although his lack of a projectile or a reflector means that he has to approach us at first. From there it's all a matter of getting past tipper range.

When equipment is added onto the equation, things can change before you know it. Also, when Cloud is in Limit Break mode, his air speed outranks everyone (including Yoshi), and he does outrun Mewtwo as well; Cloud becomes the 5th fastest runner while in Limit Break mode.

Figured you'd mention equipment. Give Mewtwo defense buffs without speed compensation and give others speed buffs without defense weighing them down and I'm sure many characters can outspeed Mewtwo. Good catch on the Limit Cloud though. Completely forgot Cloud gets an air speed buff during Limit.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

When equipment is added onto the equation, things can change before you know it. Also, when Cloud is in Limit Break mode, his air speed outranks everyone (including Yoshi), and he does outrun Mewtwo as well; Cloud becomes the 5th fastest runner while in Limit Break mode.

Really are you serious what made them think cloud deserved this

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Figured you'd mention equipment. Give Mewtwo defense buffs without speed compensation and give others speed buffs without defense weighing them down and I'm sure many characters can outspeed Mewtwo. Good catch on the Limit Cloud though. Completely forgot Cloud gets an air speed buff during Limit.

To give others an idea on what I mean, a +18 speed Rosalina runs slightly slower than a +43 speed Bowser Jr.. However, setting Bowser Jr.'s speed to -64 makes it so that he can't outrun a +18 speed Rosalina's walk speed.

Also, a +55 speed Bowser Jr. with the Sprinter bonus effect outruns a +100 speed Bowser Jr..

 

[Krysco]

To give others an idea on what I mean, a +18 speed Rosalina runs slightly slower than a +43 speed Bowser Jr.. However, setting Bowser Jr.'s speed to -64 makes it so that he can't outrun a +18 speed Rosalina's walk speed.

Also, a +55 speed Bowser Jr. with the Sprinter bonus effect outruns a +100 speed Bowser Jr..

That's quite the knowledge on the effects equipment has on characters. The only tinkering I've really done is see how much speed certain characters need to get their Brawl auto cancels back. Ganon being able to sh dair, Marth being able to sh double fair. Found out the fun way that even with 200 speed, Zelda can't sh fair without landing lag.

 

[420quickscoper]

So, are you ready for the patch that has a very large chance of happening tomorrow? Ready for those Bayonetta nerfs?
Wait a second...
Bayonetta...
Bayonett
Onett...
Ness's stage is Onett...
Ness is a pretty good character.
Guess who else is a pretty good character?
That's right.
Bayonetta.

Onett has a drug store in it.
Guess what character is on drugs?
Bayonetta.

"What about the a?" you might ask. Well, the thing is, screw the A, I don't care.

Jokes aside, if there is a patch tomorrow, what do you guys think will happen? Bayonetta nerfs will inevitably happen, but I'm interested to see what we'll do with this patch if it comes tomorrow. Or Tuesday.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

That's quite the knowledge on the effects equipment has on characters. The only tinkering I've really done is see how much speed certain characters need to get their Brawl auto cancels back. Ganon being able to sh dair, Marth being able to sh double fair. Found out the fun way that even with 200 speed, Zelda can't sh fair without landing lag.

For some trivia, a +200 speed Jigglypuff does outwalk default Diddy Kong's walk speed, but default Villager still runs faster than a +200 speed Jigglypuff's walk speed. As for running, only Captain Falcon and Sonic can outrun a +200 speed Jigglypuff's run speed without customizations.

Also, when Rosalina is equipped with the Glider bonus effect, she might still move slower in the air than Bowser Jr., if Bowser Jr. has a larger speed increase than Rosalina. In fact, a +100 speed Bowser Jr. moves slightly faster in the air than a +43 speed Corrin with the Glider bonus effect.

 

[The Legendary DJXYZ]

Clone character in this game are like irons in golf.
Whereas Mario's the driver, Dr. Mario's the wedge. (they're both really good at what they do, but what they do is very different)
Whereas Marth's the 9-iron, Lucina's the 5-iron. (Marth is more for precision, Lucina is for a moderate well-rounded approach)
Pit and Dark Pit are like the... well, they're so close to each other they're like the same club, made by different brands.

Just so you all know, I'm not an avid golfer, this is just the metaphor that fits best for me.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

So you're saying we're getting... a patch? 1.1.6? I don't know, it seems really early...

Someone break out my prediction post, it's go time.

 

[Mewtwo the king of bad]

Clone character in this game are like irons in golf.
Whereas Mario's the driver, Dr. Mario's the wedge. (they're both really good at what they do, but what they do is very different)
Whereas Marth's the 9-iron, Lucina's the 5-iron. (Marth is more for precision, Lucina is for a moderate well-rounded approach)
Pit and Dark Pit are like the... well, they're so close to each other they're like the same club, made by different brands.

Just so you all know, I'm not an avid golfer, this is just the metaphor that fits best for me.
____________________________________________________________________________________________

So you're saying we're getting... a patch? 1.1.6? I don't know, it seems really early...

Someone break out my prediction post, it's go time.

I wouldn't say for sure we're getting patch 1.1.6 its just really likely cause of the maintenance time but they might throw a curve ball never know lol