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[Mario & Sonic Guy]

If for whatever reason you don't set up hazards like Stealth Rock or Poison Spikes in a single battle and they are bold enough to send out Shedinja on a Mewtwo without Flamethrower or Shadow Ball, there's always the option to switch Pokemon. In double or triple battles, there's no reason that none of your Pokemon have a move that can deal with Shedinja.

If Mewtwo is your last Pokemon, however, then it's pretty much game over if it can't hurt Shedinja. As for double/triple battles, depending on your battle strategy, you could end up having to forfeit the match if none of your Pokemon can learn a move that can counter Shedinja's unlikely presence; if they do though, then you have to keep them safe at all costs until Shedinja shows itself.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

If Mewtwo is your last Pokemon, however, then it's pretty much game over if it can't hurt Shedinja. As for double/triple battles, depending on your battle strategy, you could end up having to forfeit the match if none of your Pokemon can learn a move that can counter Shedinja's unlikely presence; if they do though, then you have to keep them safe at all costs until Shedinja shows itself.

That's why it's always nice to have a Pokemon to set up, a Pokemon with Toxic/Will-o-Wisp, and plenty of Pokemon have moves that are super effective. Only reason Mewtwo would be last against a Shedinja would be if the rest of his team took out your team and he switches in Shedinja because he somehow predicts your Mewtwo lacked Flamethrower or Shadow Ball which in that case you would probably lose without having to face Shedinja anyways.

There was one occurrence back around generation 3 where I used net battle and matched up with someone. I had a Shedinja, and the guy didn't even know who Shedinja was. He did not carry a super effective move on any of his Pokemon, so he kept switching and failing to hit. After I explained he needed a super effective move, he just forfeited. I stopped using simulators since.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Truthfully, it's all because of Shedinja that it's never a good idea to not have any Fire, Flying, Rock, Ghost, or Dark-type attacks in your arsenal. An ability that bypasses Wonder Guard, a move that suppresses Wonder Guard, or a status move or condition that can deliver indirect damage cannot be ignored either. If Shedinja never existed, however, then this issue would not exist either.

Yes, seeing Shedinja is very unlikely, considering how mediocre its offense is, but if you're not prepared for it, then expect a forfeit to happen.

 

[meleebrawler]

The only time a Shedinja would win in a fight against a Mewtwo is if it were in Super Mystery Dungeon.

For those of you who don't know, if you bring Shedinja to the Mewtwo boss battle, Mewtwo will only run away because it doesn't have anything to deal with Shedinja.

Pretty sure this applies to any wild Mewtwo battle too.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I played and debated over at Smogon for years. I was a member there since the RSE days. I'm allowed to voice an opinion about their policies.

I've reflected on it since this morning when I posted, and I'm sorry if I came off as rude or unwilling to listen. I guess I'm mostly just used to the people who criticize Smogon being ignorant and not understanding how the community makes its rules.

There are plenty of Pokemon that can check Aegislash, depending on the moveset, even in the XY metagame with fewer megas.

Well, I'm still not entirely decided on if I believe Aegislash should be banned. Again, the vote was very close.

But I still believe Greninja and Mega Mawile bans were not unwarrented.
Sure, each of Greinja's different movesets have checks, but do you really want a check for every one of those moveset on your teams at all times? It has a potential move for almost anything. If your check is Chansey, for instance, the rare but not nonexistant Low Kick Greninja will cause you problems. It wasn't broken in the same way Salamance or Kangaskhan were, but its speed and flexible moveset made it far too easy to just lazily slap into a team and for too difficult to be truly prepared for.

 

[Aninymouse]

I've reflected on it since this morning when I posted, and I'm sorry if I came off as rude or unwilling to listen. I guess I'm mostly just used to the people who criticize Smogon being ignorant and not understanding how the community makes its rules.
Well, I'm still not entirely decided on if I believe Aegislash should be banned. Again, the vote was very close.

But I still believe Greninja and Mega Mawile bans were not unwarrented.
Sure, each of Greinja's different movesets have checks, but do you really want a check for every one of those moveset on your teams at all times? It has a potential move for almost anything. If your check is Chansey, for instance, the rare but not nonexistant Low Kick Greninja will cause you problems. It wasn't broken in the same way Salamance or Kangaskhan were, but its speed and flexible moveset made it far too easy to just lazily slap into a team and for too difficult to be truly prepared for.

No problem.

As far as Greninja is concerned, you're right in that you can't 100% prepare for it... but that's okay. It isn't an offensive juggernaught and it is quite frail. If you outspeed it, you win. If you can tank a hit, you win. If it uses Life Orb (the only dangerous Greninja), it is slowly killing itself.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

Truthfully, it's all because of Shedinja that it's never a good idea to not have any Fire, Flying, Rock, Ghost, or Dark-type attacks in your arsenal. An ability that bypasses Wonder Guard, a move that suppresses Wonder Guard, or a status move or condition that can deliver indirect damage cannot be ignored either. If Shedinja never existed, however, then this issue would not exist either.

Yes, seeing Shedinja is very unlikely, considering how mediocre its offense is, but if you're not prepared for it, then expect a forfeit to happen.

You are right that if for some reason a team didn't have those types, mold breaker, or status/condition moves, they would have to forfeit to Shedinja. I wouldn't say it's all because of Shedinja though. Ghost types were given better moves and Dark types were created because Psychic types basically ran Gen I. It's also a good idea to have Fire attacks because of coverage, especially when things like Scizor and Ferrothorn are 4x weak to fire and it hits Skarmory where Earthquake won't. Plus I doubt Talonflame are commonly run because of Shedinja. There are plenty of reasons to carry those types besides having something to deal against Shedinja in the unlikelihood he appears.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Oh yes, Talonflame is a huge nightmare for Blaziken, as Gale Wings enables its Brave Bird to strike before Blaziken even has a chance to attack. However, in a double/triple battle, you have to be weary of Protect, as Blaziken can potentially be paired with a Pokemon who's designed to completely counter Talonflame. If Blaziken uses Protect, Talonflame's Brave Bird would fail to hit Blaziken, and it would end up getting crushed by Blaziken's ally if the ally happens to have a Rock-type attack in its arsenal.

On a side note, Gale Wings also completely stops Whimsicott's Prankster ability abuse if you give Talonflame enough speed EV investment; if it's not fast enough, Whimsicott could potentially ruin Talonflame's day if it happens to use Worry Seed against it.

 

[Deleted member]

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

 

[420quickscoper]

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

Eh... well, kinda depressing honestly.

 

[BlazGreen]

Getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick was what sealed Greninja's fate in ORAS. In X/Y it had reliable checks in Clefable and Chansey but once those were covered there was nothing that could safely switch into it outside of obscure UU or RU Pokemon. You could tell it was centralizing when things like Empoleon and Porygon2 were getting much more use purely to try and deal with Greninja.

Scouting it's moveset was risky as one wrong move would often cost you a team member especially if you played offensive teams. Speaking of, if you played offense then there was almost no point in not picking Greninja as it had so little risk and such great reward.

Protean + high speed made it even more annoying to deal with. Whatever switched in under most circumstances would have to take two STAB attacks and either get KO'd or force it out temporally. The fact it can change it's typing meant it could troll some of it's potential checks. Having low defenses and losing health from Life Orb really wasn't a big deal as it was never intended to switch into stuff. Slow U-turn/Volt Switch users could usually get him in with minimal risk and from there he would be able to severely cripple the opposing team. Sure you could bring priority but you would have to work around getting that Pokemon in against it first and even then it could just switch out and would still be a problem later.

TL;DR

Greninja was too much for OU. He wasn't Mega Salamence levels of stupid but bad enough to be banned and I agree with it.

 

[Metallinatus]

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

Just listened to some Iron Maiden, a little bit of Nightwish and now Epica....
Thinking of going Black Label Society next, or maybe go back to Iron Maiden, or maybe Black Sabbath.... or maybe some darker songs from my past.
I think it's been decided then. Thanks.
If you need any more update, just ask.
And don't forget, an Up Smash a day keeps the Sheiks away.

 

[Smashifer]

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

Nothing much, just loving that Dedede on your signature though

 

[ZephyrZ]

Greninja was too much for OU. He wasn't Mega Salamence levels of stupid but bad enough to be banned and I agree with it.

To conclude this discussion; Better nerf Greninja.

 

[Iota]

Hello peeps, been playing a ton of mewtwo on for glory/in friendlies offline and I'm deciding to bring him out in tourney as my 3rd main. Hope to bring results to him

 

[Krysco]

All this Smogon and competitive Pokemon talk and here I am only making LC teams with Pokemon I find cute. Competitive Pokemon is too much of a headache for me to get into.

As for hanging, I'm doing quite well ^^ found some new songs I like and got to have a 7 hour Skype call with one of my bestie's so I'm feeling great <3

On a more Mewtwo related topic, my cousin came over today and we did some FF dubs and today was a very Robin and Mewtwo filled day which is incredibly rare for the latter. Usually stuck running into Falcons or some other annoying character but today was filled with mostly counter and projectile spammers which Mewtwo does great against.

 

[MewtwoMaster2002]

I now have seconds of each Pokemon amiibo except for Lucario. :|

 

[Igzex]

My favorite Poke'mon metagame is everyone uses only Mewtwos all with female names sandwiched by symbols and cute emoticons.
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS.

 

[LRodC]

Spoiler

Stumbled upon this on Twitter lol

 

[/Lucina]

Water Mewtwo loses to Real Mewtwo



I uploaded my first replay to YouTube today! This is one of me messing up some Greninja on For Glory. To be fair, that was an easy one. I'll share more in the future wherein I have close fights. I also welcome constructive criticism. I am more of a casual player though.

 

[LRodC]

Water Mewtwo loses to Real Mewtwo



I uploaded my first replay to YouTube today! This is one of me messing up some Greninja on For Glory. To be fair, that was an easy one. I'll share more in the future wherein I have close fights. I also welcome constructive criticism. I am more of a casual player though.

Not bad.

If I had to suggest anything, it's these:

Don't use teleport as a substitute for rolls. It looks flashy and cool, but it's generally inferior to rolling. Use teleport as either a landing mix-up or use it for teleport canceling (generally risky on FG due to only having ledges to work with and no platforms).

Also, when you get Greninja (or most characters) off the stage, don't always feel compelled to just stand back on the stage and throw baby shadow balls at him. It's not always rewarding to do so. I recommend that you chase him off stage and fire off your forward air to try and KO him off stage if you lack a FCSB. You can also use back air if they're recovering higher, and down air/neutral air if they're recovering lower. Greninja has nothing quick that he can throw out in front of him, so it's easy to overwhelm him there. Each of those options are usually more rewarding than just standing on the stage. You have a great recovery, so you generally have nothing to lose by going off stage and at least attempting to hit him. As Mewtwo, it's important to know when you can go on the offensive and when you have to step back and retain control of the stage. If you see a good opportunity, go for it.

Finally, you should use down tilt and jab 1 more in the neutral. Down tilt combos into a ton of aerial options for Mewtwo to capitalize on and jab can set up for a potential disable, grab, up tilt, or down tilt.

 

[/Lucina]

You know, that's something I've been meaning to ask about. I keep hearing about Jab leading into other moves. This is referring to Jab 1, right? As in, just poke once with Jab and then do another move? I usually mash jab to try and trap opponents in it since it seems effective at catching them whenever they charge in my direction (I have to be careful though, because it has heavy end lag when mashed).

 

[LRodC]

You know, that's something I've been meaning to ask about. I keep hearing about Jab leading into other moves. This is referring to Jab 1, right? As in, just poke once with Jab and then do another move? I usually mash jab to try and trap opponents in it since it seems effective at catching them whenever they charge in my direction (I have to be careful though, because it has heavy end lag when mashed).

Yeah, jab 1 is useful. You can follow it up with sour up tilt which true combos into up smash (percentages vary on easiness, in fact this is something I need to experiment with myself), down tilt, grab, or a disable. Just be sure to tap the button instead of holding or mashing it. It's a very useful tool. It doesn't true combo by itself, but it sets up into a lot of dangerous stuff for the opponent, way more than the simple Jab 2 would. It's not that Jab 2 is that poor by itself, but it's usually more beneficial to jab cancel instead, similar to Samus. It's not always that easy to connect with all the time though since it's frame 6 and it lacks the range that down tilt has.

 

[Metallinatus]

My favorite Poke'mon metagame is everyone uses only Mewtwos all with female names sandwiched by symbols and cute emoticons.
DON'T ASK QUESTIONS.

22XX confirmed?

 

[Metalex]

As it looks right now i might be able to go to BEAST VI this year and rep Mewtwo! It's probably gonna be a awesome experience.

Are there any other Mewtwo mains that are planning to go to BEAST VI? It seems like Abadango is coming but how much Mewtwo he will use remains to be seen

Wrote this a while back here before BEAST started and just in case anyone wondered what happened, i couldn't go due to education related stuff getting in the way at the dates the tournament started and have also had fever for almost 3 weeks so i wouldn't have been able to go anyway =( Oh well, there's other tournaments ahead in the meantime and i guess i'll aim for BEAST next year!

 

[Mr. B]

You know, that's something I've been meaning to ask about. I keep hearing about Jab leading into other moves. This is referring to Jab 1, right? As in, just poke once with Jab and then do another move? I usually mash jab to try and trap opponents in it since it seems effective at catching them whenever they charge in my direction (I have to be careful though, because it has heavy end lag when mashed).

Jab1 is interesting because it forces the opponent to face you (hello Disable!) and one time I managed a sweet SH NAir>Jab>Disable that made me so happy I wasted the sleepytime on a taunt. Its not a true combo, but jeans will be tented.

 

[FlameEmperor]

Wrote this a while back here before BEAST started and just in case anyone wondered what happened, i couldn't go due to education related stuff getting in the way at the dates the tournament started and have also had fever for almost 3 weeks so i wouldn't have been able to go anyway =( Oh well, there's other tournaments ahead in the meantime and i guess i'll aim for BEAST next year!

Thanks for keeping us updated! Looking forward to your upcoming tournies, continue keeping us informed about your successes.

 

[Metalex]

Thanks for keeping us updated! Looking forward to your upcoming tournies, continue keeping us informed about your successes.

Yeah cool, i will make sure to write here when something significant happens in my tournament journey with Mewtwo for sure!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Greninja was too much for OU. He wasn't Mega Salamence levels of stupid but bad enough to be banned and I agree with it.

The irony is that if you send out anything that either outspeeds Greninja, or has an increased priority attack, Greninja risks getting crushed if it changes into the wrong type. If Greninja uses Ice Beam, Scizor can easily maul it with Bullet Punch, and if Greninja uses Low Kick, say hello to Talonflame's Brave Bird and Gale Wings ability.

 

[Aninymouse]

**** why do I always hit the wrong button?!

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

Up tight and out of sight, brother. It's cold out here!

Getting Gunk Shot and Low Kick was what sealed Greninja's fate in ORAS. In X/Y it had reliable checks in Clefable and Chansey but once those were covered there was nothing that could safely switch into it outside of obscure UU or RU Pokemon. You could tell it was centralizing when things like Empoleon and Porygon2 were getting much more use purely to try and deal with Greninja.

Scouting it's moveset was risky as one wrong move would often cost you a team member especially if you played offensive teams. Speaking of, if you played offense then there was almost no point in not picking Greninja as it had so little risk and such great reward.

Protean + high speed made it even more annoying to deal with. Whatever switched in under most circumstances would have to take two STAB attacks and either get KO'd or force it out temporally. The fact it can change it's typing meant it could troll some of it's potential checks. Having low defenses and losing health from Life Orb really wasn't a big deal as it was never intended to switch into stuff. Slow U-turn/Volt Switch users could usually get him in with minimal risk and from there he would be able to severely cripple the opposing team. Sure you could bring priority but you would have to work around getting that Pokemon in against it first and even then it could just switch out and would still be a problem later.

TL;DR

Greninja was too much for OU. He wasn't Mega Salamence levels of stupid but bad enough to be banned and I agree with it.

See, Porygon2 is the perfect Greninja counter. Greninja cannot ever beat it unless it uses Toxic.

Porygon2 is not in a lower tier because it is bad, but because it isn't used enough. That's a huge difference. Porygon2 has always been a top-tier anti-metagame Pokemon, shutting down many powerful and popular threats with Trace and obscene bulk + Recover. It's only weakness is Knock Off and Toxic.

I think it's fine if you feel like Greninja should have been banned. I disagree, but I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. A metagame without Greninja is preferrable to you, as it was to Smogon people. But remember, never forget, that just because it was voted on does not make it objectively correct.

Porygon2 being a hard stop to Greninja alone is enough for me, by my own personal standards, to stand by my assertion that Greninja should not have been banned. Heck, Aegislash itself did pretty awesome vs most Greninja as well, only fearing the Dark Pulse versions.

 

[Yoshisaurus Rex]

How are things hanging, fellow Mewtwos?

Not bad actually. Waiting on Pokken to get released. Some Youtubers got early access to the game so I've been watching them to build up the hype.

 

[meleebrawler]

**** why do I always hit the wrong button?!



See, Porygon2 is the perfect Greninja counter. Greninja cannot ever beat it unless it uses Toxic.

Porygon2 is not in a lower tier because it is bad, but because it isn't used enough. That's a huge difference. Porygon2 has always been a top-tier anti-metagame Pokemon, shutting down many powerful and popular threats with Trace and obscene bulk + Recover. It's only weakness is Knock Off and Toxic.

I think it's fine if you feel like Greninja should have been banned. I disagree, but I'm not here to tell you you're wrong. A metagame without Greninja is preferrable to you, as it was to Smogon people. But remember, never forget, that just because it was voted on does not make it objectively correct.

Porygon2 being a hard stop to Greninja alone is enough for me, by my own personal standards, to stand by my assertion that Greninja should not have been banned. Heck, Aegislash itself did pretty awesome vs most Greninja as well, only fearing the Dark Pulse versions.

Having one hard counter does not a non-broken character make. If anything it makes the metagame even more stagnant. Imagine if Pikachu was a hard counter to Brawl Meta Knight. Still doesn't change that he solidly beats anyone else, so people learn Pikachu not because they want to but HAVE to. Then the Meta Knight players pick up another character to deal with Pikachu, and then the metagame degenerates into guessing counterpicks.

Is a metagame where everyone feels obligated to run Porygon2 just to deal with Protean Greninja pleasant?

 

[LRodC]

http://smashboards.com/threads/source-gaming-sakurai-discusses-dlc-development.431719/ Sakurai recently had an interview discussing the DLC for Smash Bros. Any thoughts on what he said about Mewtwo (or anything else)?

You can click and read each part of the full interview on the article.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

http://www.sourcegaming.info/2016/02/20/nintendo-dream-interview-with-sakurai-part-1/ Sakurai recently had an interview discussing the DLC for Smash Bros. Any thoughts on what he said about Mewtwo?

The rest of the interview parts are on the front page of the site currently.

I think it's a little funny that he thought Mewtwo X had no place in Smash as opposed to Y, when Mewtwo only has one major projectile...

 

[LRodC]

I guess I'm fine with his final smash being Y using Psystrike. We already have a good amount of "buffed up" final smash forms (Lucario, Wario, Bowser, Little Mac). It's cool how every mega evolution in Smash functions differently.

I'm interested in what he was planning do with Psystrike, though. I think the animation is already cool as is, I wonder what he was planning that could've pushed the rating? Something Giygas-like?

 

[ZephyrZ]

I think it's a little funny that he thought Mewtwo X had no place in Smash as opposed to Y, when Mewtwo only has one major projectile...

How much punching and kicking does Mewtwo do in Smash, though?
The only attacks he has that don't rely on psychic or "shadow" abilities are just tail swipes.

And projectiles aren't the only way he uses "special" abilities. He floats, he tosses enemies with telepathy, he teleports, and he stun enemies just by looking them in the eyes.

 

[LRodC]

Mewtwo X itself was a pretty different take on Mewtwo in the first place. He was never truly about physically hitting opponents (although he was capable of it), but Game Freak decided to take his separate Mega Evolution in this direction. Mewtwo Y has the same direction as regular Mewtwo (despite also having a very ignored base 150 attack on par with non mega evolved Rayquaza) where he's a quick and all powerful special cannon.

Charizard is in a similar boat. Y is the true Mega since it follows Charizard's design philosophy more, and X is the "different take" mega where he's made more physical (but again, also very capable of special attacking), and has a very different design. Sakurai likely used X because it was more popular and notable.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I guess I'm fine with his final smash being Y using Psystrike. We already have a good amount of "buffed up" final smash forms (Lucario, Wario, Bowser, Little Mac). It's cool how every mega evolution in Smash functions differently.

I'm interested in what he was planning do with Psystrike, though. I think the animation is already cool as is, I wonder what he was planning that could've pushed the rating? Something Giygas-like?

That would've been awesome. My issue, though, was that since Mewtwo has a lot of physically oriented attacks. Even his grab has a small range, for somebody with telekinesis! Not that I want to complain too much. I find it ironic that Mewtwo X doesn't fit the bill as well as Mewtwo Y for a Mewtwo that uses so many physical attacks.

How much punching and kicking does Mewtwo do in Smash, though?
The only attacks he has that don't rely on psychic or "shadow" abilities are just tail swipes.

And projectiles aren't the only way he uses "special" abilities. He floats, he tosses enemies with telepathy, he teleports, and he stun enemies just by looking them in the eyes.

ZephyrZ Punching and kicking, not much. He uses a LOT of tail-swipes and attacks that require being close to the opponent. It's one thing to have the movement traits of a psychic, it's another thing for something to actually utilize those like one would think they would. For all that telekinetic ability, Mewtwo's grab range is still surprisingly small.

I suppose you have a point in that proximity might not make the difference but that style does.

 

[ZephyrZ]

That would've been awesome. My issue, though, was that since Mewtwo has a lot of physically oriented attacks. Even his grab has a small range, for somebody with telekinesis! Not that I want to complain too much. I find it ironic that Mewtwo X doesn't fit the bill as well as Mewtwo Y for a Mewtwo that uses so many physical attacks.

Yeah, but Mewtwo X, like many fighting types, has more martial arts-ish movements.
I'm pretty sure one if its attacking animations in X/Y is a jump kick. I don't think Smash Mewtwo really matches the fighting-type style at all.

Compare to Pokken, where Mewtwo uses Elemental Punches and the like.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Yeah, but Mewtwo X, like many fighting types, has more martial arts-ish movements.
I'm pretty sure one if its attacking animations in X/Y is a jump kick. I don't think Smash Mewtwo really matches the fighting-type style at all.

Read my edit.

Mewtwo X wouldn't be too much of an offshoot considering other transformations that don't really match the fighting-style of their current incarnation of Smash - The Game&Watch Octopus, Yoshi Dragon, Charizard X (with OG Charizard being in the same boat as Mewtwo - it has a much better Special Attack stat but relies much more so on physical attacks, and even then, Charizard X uses 2 moves, one of which is ranged), arugably Giga Bowser since he uses Bowser's old moveset instead of Godzilla-esque dropkicks.

Even if Mewtwo X isn't a fantastic choice, it keeps a similar theme of at least getting close, something Mewtwo Y doesn't use at all!