[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[TheYungLink]

Only FF2 fan on the planet, reporting for duty!

Firionel could make attacks stronger by using them, like with FF2's unique experience system.

So his gimmick would be that spamming attacks makes them stronger rather than weaker as is the case currently...but only for that one attack, because raising the strength of a single move weakens the rest of Firionel's kit, for total accuracy.

 

[GoodGrief741]

So his gimmick would be that spamming attacks makes them stronger rather than weaker as is the case currently...but only for that one attack, because raising the strength of a single move weakens the rest of Firionel's kit, for total accuracy.

I think if it worked in tandem with stale-move negation, it wouldn't need to weaken the rest of his moveset. Rather, the more you use an attack, the stronger it gets, but if used a lot consecutively, stale-move negation not only applies to damage, but also damage growth. Therefore the incentive would be to mix things up and raise the power of different attacks.

(I'm really liking this gimmick I wish another character could use it because no way Firionel gets in)

 

[ARandomZoomer]

?
Bruh..
Not a single Mario character is solely part of any spinoff series, except the Doc that is a mere echo and has his own freaking franchise.
All of the characters have a foundation in the core Mario series dude.

While yes Daisy does debut in the core Mario series, I'd argue she's more of a spin-off character than a core series one because it's where her current design, personality, and popularity come from. If spin-offs didn't count then Daisy wouldn't even be an echo fighter but a palette swap just like in Smash 4. Also on another note I'm pretty sure Persona is a spin-off series itself sooo

 

[MajoraMan28]

While yes Daisy does debut in the core Mario series, I'd argue she's more of a spin-off character than a core series one because it's where her current design, personality, and popularity come from. If spin-offs didn't count then Daisy wouldn't even be an echo fighter but a palette swap just like in Smash 4. Also on another note I'm pretty sure Persona is a spin-off series itself sooo

You answered your remark yourself.
Daisy was the damsel in distress from the first Mario platformer on a portable. She does have her relevance. This idea that she is more of a spinoff character bears no grounds. She still showed up in the core series as a relevant character in one of its entries, not as a side character.
And Persona is derived from the MT series, same as SMT, and it is more of its own franchise. It has a core series within the franchise. It is not a series of titles on the level of Persona Q. Nice try with the false equivalency though.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

One's debut game has nothing to do with how they're represented in Smash. Daisy is nothing but spin-off based. It's the version of her people care about because it's what made her stand out. It's only natural the games that made her worthwhile as a character does that.

Black Mage is still a character in the game as well. That's what characters are, any kind of individual(that includes any class) you see within a work. Every single enemy, class, etc. are absolutely a character. It doesn't make them inherently fleshed out. Contrary to popular belief, a character does not need characterization to be any less of a character(what you're thinking of is simply improving a character, but it's not really the definition at all. By the fact they actually have a proper name, even as a class, they're already defined as a character. There's tons of NPC's without any sort of name but just a design that have less than your typical class, which is still something). It's even common for a random enemy to have more personality than the actual playable character, who is often an individual too in these cases.

Final Fantasy 1's thing is that you could play multiples of the same character to make the gameplay interesting. They didn't stop being a character just cause they're a "class". Also, we have classes in Smash(Pokemon Trainer, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer). Black Mage is a very popular character idea, and not just cause of Vivi. It's a badass spell wielding magician that sounds really amazing on paper, and is fun to work with in their debut game. When you take a look at one of the coolest fanworks around, 8-Bit Theater, you realize that being a Class or having a proper name isn't relevant to making an interesting character. Writing is. And tons of games do not make their character interesting by default.

 

[MajoraMan28]

One's debut game has nothing to do with how they're represented in Smash. Daisy is nothing but spin-off based. It's the version of her people care about because it's what made her stand out. It's only natural the games that made her worthwhile as a character does that.

Black Mage is still a character in the game as well. That's what characters are, any kind of individual(that includes any class) you see within a work. Every single enemy, class, etc. are absolutely a character. It doesn't make them inherently fleshed out. Contrary to popular belief, a character does not need characterization to be any less of a character(what you're thinking of is simply improving a character, but it's not really the definition at all. By the fact they actually have a proper name, even as a class, they're already defined as a character. There's tons of NPC's without any sort of name but just a design that have less than your typical class, which is still something). It's even common for a random enemy to have more personality than the actual playable character, who is often an individual too in these cases.

Final Fantasy 1's thing is that you could play multiples of the same character to make the gameplay interesting. They didn't stop being a character just cause they're a "class". Also, we have classes in Smash(Pokemon Trainer, Villager, Wii Fit Trainer). Black Mage is a very popular character idea, and not just cause of Vivi. It's a badass spell wielding magician that sounds really amazing on paper, and is fun to work with in their debut game. When you take a look at one of the coolest fanworks around, 8-Bit Theater, you realize that being a Class or having a proper name isn't relevant to making an interesting character. Writing is. And tons of games do not make their character interesting by default.

Well, there is a reason why Waluigi was skipped over Daisy.

And the entire premise behind my claim with BM is that he is a class in a ->character-centric series<-.
It wouldn't represent the series as well as a MC with far more popularity

 

[Opossum]

Yeah, let's not pretend Super Mario Land is at all relevant to Daisy in Smash. Literally the only time her connection to it is acknowledged is due to the All Star Smash character order.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well, there is a reason why Waluigi was skipped over Daisy.

And the entire premise behind my claim with BM is that he is a class in a ->character-centric series<-.
It wouldn't represent the series as well as a MC with far more popularity

Black Mage would represent FF just fine. There's nothing wrong with the character whatsoever. Magic is practically unused from FF in Smash itself, and that's been a pretty big thing for the series.

Daisy is in because she's an easy Echo. Apparently fan demand too. The spin-off argument has nothing to do with her in the way you're presenting it. In fact, it's what helped her the most, because she's directly a clone of Peach in the spin-offs, but also since she still has spin-offs abilities like the Golf Club and Tennis Racket as part of her moveset. She doesn't actually use anything related to Super Mario Land whatsoever. It's like saying Cloud does anything to represent FF as a whole. He's only representing FFVII specifically. It's ironic, since they're polar opposites in what they're based upon.

 

[Opossum]

Black Mage would represent FF just fine. There's nothing wrong with the character whatsoever. Magic is practically unused from FF in Smash itself, and that's been a pretty big thing for the series.

Daisy is in because she's an easy Echo. Apparently fan demand too. The spin-off argument has nothing to do with her in the way you're presenting it. In fact, it's what helped her the most, because she's directly a clone of Peach in the spin-offs, but also since she still has spin-offs abilities like the Golf Club and Tennis Racket as part of her moveset. She doesn't actually use anything related to Super Mario Land whatsoever. It's like saying Cloud does anything to represent FF as a whole. He's only representing FFVII specifically. It's ironic, since they're polar opposites in what they're based upon.

Actually, if I remember correctly, fan demand was never actually given as a reason for Daisy, only for Chrom and Dark Samus (and Richter, but that was more Castlevania in general).

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Actually, if I remember correctly, fan demand was never actually given as a reason for Daisy, only for Chrom and Dark Samus (and Richter, but that was more Castlevania in general).

That's why I said apparently. There's no doubt she has fan demand and ballot votes. She's highly popular as a fan request as one can find online over and over on multiple sites.

But it's probably just "easy Echo" and that's it.

 

[GoodGrief741]

Well, there is a reason why Waluigi was skipped over Daisy.

Because Waluigi is not a possible Echo.

 

[DarthEnderX]

The idea that Super Mario Land is a "core Mario game" is laughable.

As is the idea that the NPC you rescue at the end of a portable spinoff game is somehow less of a "side character" than an actual playable party member from the first game in the franchise.

And the entire premise behind my claim with BM is that he is a class in a ->character-centric series<-.
It wouldn't represent the series as well as a MC with far more popularity

Which is fine, but don't pretend that Smash doesn't already have less important characters to a franchise than BM.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Super Mario Land is also treated as a core game by Nintendo too. And considering it actually plays like a regular Mario Platformer, even mores than Super Mario Bros. 2 USA, there's nothing non-core about it. Changing the settings and one damsel in distress does little to change that you play it the same way as the rest(bar 2 USA, the actual stand out among the core Mario games).

You still get power-ups to defeat the enemy. You still jump on enemies to win. Where's the core gameplay differences? Like, again, 2 USA is way more different as is. They both have Super Mario in the title, star Mario himself, are both platformers... yet the Gameboy one suddenly isn't because it doesn't have Bros. in its title(the only tangible difference between it and Super Mario Bros. 1). In addition, Super Mario Run is considered a core Mario game, as odd as it is arguably. I doubt they really care if the platformer has some differences or not, just as long as it's a platformer with Super Mario in its title. At one point, they seem to have considered it a spin-off, but they changed their mind later.

https://www.mariowiki.com/File:Super_Mario_Bros_30th_Anniversary_-_JP_Artwork.jpg As shown here, it's treated as a core title during the 30th anniversary. But then again, Super Mario Run. Second link that lists the core Mario games officially.

Regardless, her being from a core title(confirmed) isn't why she's in, so it doesn't really matter all that much. Sakurai never has made any declaration that you can't be from a spin-off to get in. He at most confirmed he wanted music from Dr. Mario to also add him, being the first spin-off content to be added on its own merits(whereas Dr. Mario himself being a clone played more of a role).

 

[GoodGrief741]

The idea that Super Mario Land is a "core Mario game" is laughable.

It is though.

But I don't know who was arguing that Black Mage isn't from a core game, because that is laughable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It is though.

But I don't know who was arguing that Black Mage isn't from a core game, because that is laughable.

Or that Black Mage is suddenly not a main character? He kind of is, in Final Fantasy 1. All 6 are main characters. It's just a weird story where it varies enough that they'd rather just combine them all into another character to help represent it. That makes sense, as you can only use up to 4 at once, but I don't think they have an official canon of which 4 characters they are either?

Though as I pointed out, SML didn't start off as one, so I can see why back then some didn't treat Daisy as a core character. Coupled with her being mainly in spin-offs, I can understand that. But then they changed that up, for whatever reason it may be. I forget what year the anniversary was, though. When was Super Mario Bros. released again?

 

[MajoraMan28]

It is though.

But I don't know who was arguing that Black Mage isn't from a core game, because that is laughable.

Nobody argued he isn't. Read again.

Or that Black Mage is suddenly not a main character? He kind of is, in Final Fantasy 1. All 6 are main characters. It's just a weird story where it varies enough that they'd rather just combine them all into another character to help represent it. That makes sense, as you can only use up to 4 at once, but I don't think they have an official canon of which 4 characters they are either?

Though as I pointed out, SML didn't start off as one, so I can see why back then some didn't treat Daisy as a core character. Coupled with her being mainly in spin-offs, I can understand that. But then they changed that up, for whatever reason it may be. I forget what year the anniversary was, though. When was Super Mario Bros. released again?

1985
And he isn't a main character. He is more of an icon like Chocobo and Moogle, but less relevant for not showing up as often. BM isn't an established character. He is one of many in a class of characters. As FF is a character centric series, he doesn't show up in popularity polls among FF fans as he does among Nintendo fans (which include tons of people that never played FF seriously).

 

[DarthEnderX]

but I don't think they have an official canon of which 4 characters they are either?

Other than that the first character is the Fighter/Paladin(a.k.a. Warrior of Light), no.

But pretty much any time they are depicted as a group in media its usually Fighter, Thief/Monk, White Mage, Black Mage.

BM isn't an established character.

But he is in FF1. FF1 is NOT a Job System game. FF1 is 6 individual(albeit very generic) characters, of which you choose to play as 4 of them.

It's exactly like Trials of Mana, where you choose which 3 of the 6 available characters you play as.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

It's kind of funny how the one mainline game Daisy is in, she's playing the usual damsel role.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's kind of funny how the one mainline game Daisy is in, she's playing the usual damsel role.

She does this in Super Mario Run as well?

Cause that's a mainline game.

Funny thing is that Daisy and Waluigi both got mini-boss roles in Mario Party 3's story mode.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

She does this in Super Mario Run as well?

Cause that's a mainline game.

Woopsie! Forgot about that one. Heh, yeah, even if there's doubts of Super Mario Land, Super Mario Run without question is a mainline game that Daisy has over Waluigi.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Woopsie! Forgot about that one. Heh, yeah, even if there's doubts of Super Mario Land, Super Mario Run without question is a mainline game that Daisy has over Waluigi.

Well, they’re both in Super Mario Maker. Waluigi also has a specific cameo in Odyssey. Daisy has solely one more mainline game appearance in total.

 

[MajoraMan28]

Other than that the first character is the Fighter/Paladin(a.k.a. Warrior of Light), no.

But pretty much any time they are depicted as a group in media its usually Fighter, Thief/Monk, White Mage, Black Mage.
But he is in FF1. FF1 is NOT a Job System game. FF1 is 6 individual(albeit very generic) characters, of which you choose to play as 4 of them.

It's exactly like Trials of Mana, where you choose which 3 of the 6 available characters you play as.

I understand where you're coming from, but he isn't an obligatory character. You can have a party full of white mages, if you want. The only thing that SE considers as "canon" for FF1 is the recently created Warrior of Light. I know, it's silly, but that's what they push for.

She does this in Super Mario Run as well?

Cause that's a mainline game.

Funny thing is that Daisy and Waluigi both got mini-boss roles in Mario Party 3's story mode.

I'm not sure Run would be considered a mainline core game, but I digress.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I'm not sure Run would be considered a mainline core game, but I digress.

It is according to Nintendo. I linked it above.

I understand where you're coming from, but he isn't an obligatory character. You can have a party full of white mages, if you want. The only thing that SE considers as "canon" for FF1 is the recently created Warrior of Light. I know, it's silly, but that's what they push for.

That doesn't make them less of a main character in the game regardless. Warrior of Light is something that was created later due to a lack of a clear story. All 6 characters are the main playable options. They're all one equal footing at that point. Things changing later doesn't change the intention when created either. 6 main characters with an inability to use all at once, so a create your own canon kind of thing. You could also play as a female or male character in an official remake of Zelda 1. So in that game, either is a proper main character. It's not canon to the main storyline, but why does it have to be? They're still important in their own right.

 

[DarthEnderX]

You can have a party full of white mages, if you want.

That is true. It's not like Trials of Mana lets you pick the same character three times.

 

[Minik]

Issue is that final fantasy has moved on from its routes of classic little mages and stuff and moved onto human main characters, pretty clear when you look at something like dissidia. I sadly doubt black mage would even be the 4th FF character to be added in this state. Only reason I would even have any hope for Chocobo is that its used as a mascot and has its own series, which while was dead for a bit JUST came back. That's if they'd even have a third party represent a spinoff, spinoffs are a different ballgame when its not first party, Unless you're Pacland, if you're Pacland you're allowed.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Issue is that final fantasy has moved on from its routes of classic little mages and stuff and moved onto human main characters

In the core games, yes. But they still appear all the time in spinoff games and mobile games. In fact, a lot of those games take the anime pretty boys from the core games and make them look like the cute little mages of the earlier games.

 

[Jovahexeon Joranvexeon]

Waluigi also has a specific cameo in Odyssey.

Well not quite an active role. You talking about his costume?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Well not quite an active role. You talking about his costume?

Yes. No different from Super Mario Maker. An active role really doesn't change what I'm saying. Waluigi has appeared in a mainline series game overall.

Slightly less than Daisy as is. Though if you don't want to count that as much, SMM is an actual proper ability to play as him to some degree. Daisy's not really in a better position with a mediocre NPC role in Land, and only Super Mario Run as a proper playable appearance(which isn't really much different from Super Mario Maker at that point). Also, I think Daisy has overall more Mario games she's in than Waluigi, but the difference is very very low. I don't think she was in DDR: Mario Mix, where Waluigi was pretty much a starter villain, kicking off the plot as is. I think other than that, the only real times he's not available, cameo or otherwise(beyond Land) would be Super Mario Run and Mario Kart 7. Daisy also isn't in Odyssey, so that's one game he makes a partial appearance in she doesn't. One could probably look at the exact games, but nonetheless, Daisy slightly beats him out.

Either way, it's not like that was really relevant for getting into Smash. Not when being an Echo was the only actual useful thing going for her.

 

[MajoraMan28]

"mediocre"
Bruh
She was THE damsel in distress of the first core Mario game on a portable.
That was literally Peach's role for decades. Peach got in Melee basically as a damsel in distress only too.
Comparing Daisy with Waluigi's roles in the games is just silly. Daisy has a lot more by SML alone

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

"mediocre"
Bruh
She was THE damsel in distress of the first core Mario game on a portable.
That was literally Peach's role for decades. Peach got in Melee basically as a damsel in distress only too.
Comparing Daisy with Waluigi's roles in the games is just silly. Daisy has a lot more by SML alone

Having a ton of appearances doesn't make her role very good. In fact, her role in SML is pretty bad to begin with. Damsel in distress is not an actual good thing. Also, it doesn't really matter if it was a core game or not. That doesn't make the role actually good either. Her only actual good roles were a mini-boss in Mario Party 3 and being one of the many possible protagonists in Super Mario Run. Where she does something on her own.

Damsel in distress, especially when it doesn't really have the character there to be anything but an object to get, is a horrid role.

...And I'd explain more if I had more time.

And now I do have more time~ Women shouldn't be treated as objects. That's how Daisy and Peach were created, along with Zelda. They were means to an end, just prizes. These are not healthy roles at all. Having a fun game is fine and all, but it doesn't mean every role is well-made either. And I'm one who enjoyed those Mario games and thought were pretty damn good on their own right. But liking a game doesn't mean liking how the story was designed, after all. When I say it's "mediocre", it means because it's a poor story role for any character to be in. Of course her role is important. That doesn't mean it's handled well. It's why I like some of the Mario RPG-related games. They give Peach something to do, giving her agency and all. It's not just a prize to be won. They even had her get fed up with that kind of behavior and basically rejected both Bowser and Mario at the end of Odyssey to show she doesn't like being treated as an object. I mean, maybe she somewhat enjoys being kidnapped for the suspense and for all we know has a soft spot for Bowser. We don't know. Bowser is notoriously known in Paper Mario for making a pretty good attempt to keeping the Princess comfortable as well. He has standards, after all. Besides that, this whole thing was way better things like Kart existed, where it's just one story of many with similar plots that they're more like actors in. Once that came around, it's closer to them choosing to act in the role. It doesn't make the role less problematic by design, but it does at least show it's a bit more of a choice, or at least implies it is, which is healthier than having no choice but to be an object.

 

[DarthEnderX]

She was THE damsel in distress of the first core Mario game on a portable.

Yeah, a game that sucked, and then she never came back in any of the later, better games.

 

[MajoraMan28]

Yeah, a game that sucked, and then she never came back in any of the later, better games.

>SML
>Game that sucked
Uhhhhh.... was that ironic?
Sucked so much that people talk about it to this day, and we even get easter eggs in freaking SMM2.
The relevance to the main series is there regardless of the quality. You don't see me downplaying Sunshine's relevance.


"Damsel in distress is not an actual good thing."
A damsel in distress in a classical fairy tale is a role of the story that is extremely important, and completes the classical trio of hero, villain, love. It doesn't really matter the gender of who is being held captive. And there is nothing wrong with having this role. Nintendo has valued this kind of character for decades by now, and downplaying this as you try to explain why Daisy is more relevant than Waluigi shows the biased view distorted by the narrative you wish to convey.

And I chuckled at how hilariously predictable the explanation was gonna be.
I'm not even going to deconstruct that rehashed talking point, specially considering that this is the Square rep thread, not the Daisy thread.
I suggest moving this discussion to the general thread. But I'm telling you now, I'm not buying your narrative, and I'm much less interested in dwelving in this kind of discussion here.

 

[ZelDan]

Super Mario Land wasn't amazing or one of the better Mario platformers, but saying it sucked is a bit much. If I anything I can appreciate it for being one of the weirder, quirkier 2D Mario platformers even to this day, and lord knows I'd love to see something like that again after getting nothing but NSMB after NSMB after NSMB...

 

[TheYungLink]

I'm guessing this thread is still open because technically we could still maybe get more Square-Enix characters.

Aside from female versions of The Hero, my most wanted SE character is 2B from NieR: Automata even though she's deconfirmed. Aside from her though, I'd like to see Geno and / or Mallow, but they're probably even less likely.

And so we're left with the most likely of my remaining SE wants, which is *checks notes* Lara Croft. I keep forgetting SE owns Eidos lol

 

[DarthEnderX]

>SML
>Game that sucked
Uhhhhh.... was that ironic?

Are you seriously going to try and argue that its not the worst(apparently core) Mario game? The only one that is significantly worse than previous games?

Mario Land is the Castlevania Adventure of Mario games.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

...There's a bad core Mario game among the platformers? Like, I can't think of one that is actually legitimately bad. I vastly dislike Sunshine, but I can't even remotely call it a bad game either. It has some pretty good controls, and while a few levels(especially the Pachinko one) can be annoying(namely the ones without F.U.D.D. are just a pain to play and not easily fun for others). I get some are tired of the NSMB rehashes, but SML is not bad at all. The game has some fun power-ups and plays just fine. It's not full of bad level design either. So an explanation of how it's bad instead of just calling it that would be nice to know. Cause honestly, this just seems like blind hatred, and at this point is getting a bit ridiculous.

For the record, I agree it's not that special among Mario platformers either. It's not the epitome of awesome on its own, but without it, we wouldn't have gotten Wario or Daisy to begin with, two pretty cool characters, so I can't really see a good reason to hate on it or the series.

And there is no apparent. It's officially labeled as a core game(it was even linked earlier, so there's no denying hard facts here). Sure, there's some bad parts, being the horrid role that Nintendo delves into too much, which is treating a character as an object to be saved(which isn't a good role just because you switch the genders. It's still bad and demeaning on its own. Just cause it "works" doesn't mean it's a healthy role at all).

 

[TheYungLink]

Super Mario Land 1 is Good Actually and I will hear no dissenting opinions on that matter, but I really don't see why we're talking about it or Daisy or Waluigi in the Square Enix newcomer thread.

 

[DarthEnderX]

Because we were comparing Daisy's importance to Black Mage's.

 

[GoodGrief741]

I honestly don't think Black Mage or any other FF character has any shot, but while later FF titles have definitely become character focused I don't see any reason why Sakurai couldn't just choose to represent the early days with an iconic archetype such as BM.

 

[ZelDan]

I'd say the worst core Mario game is the Japanese SMB2 just because of how BS it could get.

And it did even less in changing assets than a NSMB game did (to be fair this game came out in the very early days of Nintendo's gaming years, but still, the fact remains it felt too similar to the first SMB game)