[SPOILER ALERT] - The Sevens Squares. - A Square-Enix general support threads.

[DarthEnderX]

That literally doesn't change anything lol. The point is, people are under NDA when it comes to this kind of stuff.

There's no NDA unless there's actually a deal happening.

If a character isn't in Smash, then there's nothing preventing anyone from saying they aren't in Smash.

 

[perfectchaos83]

No offense (And this is from someone that does not care if Sora gets in) but saying no is a prime example in the entertainment industry when they can´t talk about. I mean there is a reason why videos like this exist.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XKrlvXZ44Vo&ab_channel=JimSterling

I'm talking strictly video games here. Not once have I seen a dev lie about a project they do not control. Non-answers tell more than answers do when NDAs are involved. Abnormal silence is also something to take note of, similar to how I felt Shantae content was in Smash due to Wayforward's silence.

 

[A.G.L.]

I won’t lie Sora’s chances took a hit today. However like Nazyrus has been pointing out we shouldn’t take all this information as an immediate deconformation. As for Hashimoto trolling, I’m not sure on that. He’s not a super troll like let’s say Ed Boon is. It is possible that he could be misleading people or he could be telling the truth, we don’t know.

Iv said many times that Sora has the possibility for highest income for all parties involved. That said the involvement of Disney may have been too big of a factor.

Come E3 hopefully we’ll find out, until then I’ll keep hoping!

 

[Ovaltine]

That's... ouch. That's as blatant as it can get. Sora's chances look incredibly bleak now. There is a chance that they're pulling a fast one on us, but... oof. I'm so sorry to Sora's fans. It looked like he still had a pretty good chance.

I hope Geno's definite deconfirmation for the Fighter's Pass comes soon, too, so I can move on. Now Sora's fans get to be in the same dreadful limbo as we are. It's... merciless. Hopefully Square will at least cushion the blow well enough with good KH3 content at E3. :\

 

[A.G.L.]

That's... ouch. That's as blatant as it can get. Sora's chances look incredibly bleak now. There is a chance that they're pulling a fast one on us, but... oof. I'm so sorry to Sora's fans. It looked like he still had a pretty good chance.

I hope Geno's definite deconfirmation for the Fighter's Pass comes soon, too, so I can move on. Now Sora's fans get to be in the same dreadful limbo as we are. It's... merciless. Hopefully Square will at least cushion the blow well enough with good KH3 content at E3. :\

I really hope that’s true that the DLC at E3 for KH3 is amazing. Personally KH3 to me was a letdown. The pacing towards the end was really fast and made it super confusing. Also they made the gameplay too different, too simple from where KH2 was. So hopefully the DLC content brings a lot to the table and hopefully brings back FF characters.

And yup time to join the dreadful limbo haha.

 

[Ovaltine]

I really hope that’s true that the DLC at E3 for KH3 is amazing. Personally KH3 to me was a letdown. The pacing towards the end was super confusing and they made the gameplay too different and too simple from where KH2 was. So hopefully the DLC content brings a lot to the table and hopefully brings back FF characters.

And yup time to join the dreadful limbo haha.

Man, I'm so sorry. This limbo freaking sucks. I know you wanted Sora, too, so... oof.

I think things look even better for Erdrick as a result, by the by. His competition is falling one-by-one.

 

[A.G.L.]

Man, I'm so sorry. This limbo freaking sucks. I know you wanted Sora, too, so... oof.

I think things look even better for Erdrick as a result, by the by. His competition is falling one-by-one.

I won’t lie just like Sora’s chances took a hit, Erdrick’s chances rose. That being said I still think it’s too early to call it for Erdrick. We have to keep in mind the Spawn in Injustice 2 situation. Spawn also was sitting pretty, it seemed like all his competition was falling apart, he had leaks backing him, insiders backing him, his creator backing him, Ed Boon seemingly backing him. And yet poof no Spawn. So let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

There’s one big obstacle in Erdrick’s path if Sora is really out of the running. And that’s Sephiroth who so far has had no one de confirming him, and the fact that FF7 remake is the focus of Square right now, definitely does not hurt his chances. Also will Square change years of playing it safe with cross promotion characters, and for the first time choose a character that’s not globally popular?

Hopefully we will find out at E3!

 

[Ovaltine]

I won’t lie just like Sora’s chances took a hit, Erdrick’s chances rose. That being said I still think it’s too early to call it for Erdrick. We have to keep in mind the Spawn in Injustice 2 situation. Spawn also was sitting pretty, it seemed like all his competition was falling apart, he had leaks backing him, insiders backing him, his creator backing him, Ed Boon seemingly backing him. And yet poof no Spawn. So let’s no get ahead of ourselves.

There’s on big obstacle in Erdrick’s path if Sora is really out of the running. And that’s Sephiroth who so far has had no one de confirming him, and the fact that FF7 remake is the focus of Square right now, definitely does not hurt his chances. Also will Square change years of playing it safe with cross promotion characters, and for the first time choose a character that’s not globally popular?

Hopefully we will find out at E3!

Yeah, honestly, Sephiroth is a freaking BEAST that shouldn't be underestimated in terms of his chances. MajoraMan28 's dream could still happen yet. We'll see what happens!

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

So how come characters like Master Chief, Dante, and Travis Touchdown are agreed upon to be deconfirmed outright yet with Sora it's either the guy lying or he's under NDA?

 

[A.G.L.]

So how come characters like Master Chief, Dante, and Travis Touchdown are agreed upon to be deconfirmed outright yet with Sora it's either the guy lying or he's under NDA?

Personally I have not taken any of those “de confirmation” seriously when it comes to other characters. I actually think Master Chief snd Dante have a good chance. So this tweet saying Sora is de confirmed is something I do not put that much stock in. Developers can lie, or in Bayonetta’s creators case, they can mislead. Personally I think it’s not an outright deconformation until we see they didn’t end up in the fighters pass, or Sakurai flat out says no.

 

[Teeb147]

So how come characters like Master Chief, Dante, and Travis Touchdown are agreed upon to be deconfirmed outright yet with Sora it's either the guy lying or he's under NDA?

Because sora fans are more tenacious ;p

 

[Simplythe1]

So how come characters like Master Chief, Dante, and Travis Touchdown are agreed upon to be deconfirmed outright yet with Sora it's either the guy lying or he's under NDA?

I KNOW RIGHT!?! Im pretty sure its cuz he's more "popular"

 

[Ben Holt]

I don't mean to say this in a derogatory way, but I feel like people are way too delusional on Sora's chances.
Don't get me wrong; I would love to see a playable Sora, but I personally feel like he was disconfirmed the moment he was created as a spinoff of the Mickey Mouse franchise. The pendant on his Keyblade is even a Mickey Mouse logo.
So, with all due respect to his supporters, I think that Sora is in the same boat as Goku; popular, but ineligible.

Edit: On topic of the main question, Erdrick is all but confirmed at this point, but even if he weren't, he would still be the second in line Square Enix choice (Cloud counts as first), as Dragon Quest is SE's second biggest franchise.
Geno is next (in terms of SE characters, not DLC overall) simply due to his high demand and the fact that he is technically a Mario character, so he's permanently tied to Nintendo. I'm genuinely surprised that he hasn't made it in YET.

 

[Nazyrus]

There's no NDA unless there's actually a deal happening..

Right, and no one here will know if that's the case or not, only the companies do and they will obviously not be saying anything. If he is in Smash, they can't say yes anyway because that would break NDA, and if he truly isn't in, they would still say "no". Therefore, my point stands, no one should be calling this a 100% deconfirmation, there is no way to know what's Sora's case really until all DLC characters have been revealed. It changes nothing of what I already said lol.

I don't mean to say this in a derogatory way, but I feel like people are way too delusional on Sora's chances.
Don't get me wrong; I would love to see a playable Sora, but I personally feel like he was disconfirmed the moment he was created as a spinoff of the Mickey Mouse franchise. The pendant on his Keyblade is even a Mickey Mouse logo.
So, with all due respect to his supporters, I think that Sora is in the same boat as Goku; popular, but ineligible.

Let's not do this again. Sora IS a gaming character and was born in a videogame. It doesn't matter what company made him, it's still a game character. The belief that he can't get in because of they keyblade having a mickey logo is void, it's literally a fan made rule a this point. Being from Disney doesn't stop him at all. Disney has made games and they even made him, a 100% game character. The symbol in his keyblade is pointless discussion, if they are willing to lend him to Sakurai to put him in Smash, they are willing to make him keep the symbol that represents them as well, no one but smash community are making up that the symbol is an obstacle.
He is nowhere near Goku, because Goku isn't born from a video game to begin with. This really shouldn't need to be explained over and over again.

 

[Door Key Pig]

I won’t lie just like Sora’s chances took a hit, Erdrick’s chances rose. That being said I still think it’s too early to call it for Erdrick. We have to keep in mind the Spawn in Injustice 2 situation. Spawn also was sitting pretty, it seemed like all his competition was falling apart, he had leaks backing him, insiders backing him, his creator backing him, Ed Boon seemingly backing him. And yet poof no Spawn. So let’s not get ahead of ourselves.

There’s one big obstacle in Erdrick’s path if Sora is really out of the running. And that’s Sephiroth who so far has had no one de confirming him, and the fact that FF7 remake is the focus of Square right now, definitely does not hurt his chances. Also will Square change years of playing it safe with cross promotion characters, and for the first time choose a character that’s not globally popular?

Hopefully we will find out at E3!

Eh, if they were barely getting FF7 stuff in with Cloud, would they fare better with Sepiroth? Maybe if they were specifically saving stuff for his character inclusion...

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I don't mean to say this in a derogatory way, but I feel like people are way too delusional on Sora's chances.
Don't get me wrong; I would love to see a playable Sora, but I personally feel like he was disconfirmed the moment he was created as a spinoff of the Mickey Mouse franchise. The pendant on his Keyblade is even a Mickey Mouse logo.
So, with all due respect to his supporters, I think that Sora is in the same boat as Goku; popular, but ineligible.

That didn't work with Pokemon having anime references, and it doesn't work here either. A keychain isn't going to prevent him from being in. It's just the likeness of one character(and specifically the game version of one character, which Pokemon even outdoes, as it has an anime only character variant as a Final Smash now. It's arguable if Ash-Greninja showed up because it finally had a game appearance or not, but it still is an anime-specific thing created to make Greninja unique in itself. In addition, it's not the first time Ash is mentioned within Smash itself, and it probably won't be the last. You can even argue Ash-Greninja is a variant of a Mega, though it's more of a Form Change. However, there's no arguing Ash is a purely anime character as is. That's a hard anime reference no matter which way you go about it). The keychain is literally no different from the Pokemon anime stuff. It's slightly related to the non-games, but still tied to the games in their own way. Ash is pretty much the anime version of Red, after all. The only thing the keychain has as an issue is licensing the likeness of Mickey Mouse for a cameo of sorts. That's not nearly a problem that Sakurai would have outside of costing too much money. He has no literal reason to care about that.

Now, he might care about the Disney trio showing up, as they're really important to KH. Coupled with a lot of Final Fantasy characters, as well as KH originals, and it sounds like a licensing mess. But that assumes he wants to show off all of this. It's actually as simple as Sakurai seeing it as impossible to represent KH well due to licensing. Keyblade is hardly an issue, but the rest sure is.

Edit: On topic of the main question, Erdrick is all but confirmed at this point, but even if he weren't, he would still be the second in line Square Enix choice (Cloud counts as first), as Dragon Quest is SE's second biggest franchise.
Geno is next (in terms of SE characters, not DLC overall) simply due to his high demand and the fact that he is technically a Mario character, so he's permanently tied to Nintendo. I'm genuinely surprised that he hasn't made it in YET.

Being the "biggest" franchise isn't a key factor. Erdrick's nowhere near the level you're making it. The only thing he has going for him of any strength is two leakers, but both have issues. Verge has no DLC right and missed some of the base roster(among he leaked, we got no SE character or Minecraft content. He backpedaled on this). The datamine is too iffy and an educated guess instead.

Eh, if they were barely getting FF7 stuff in with Cloud, would they fare better with Sepiroth? Maybe if they were specifically saving stuff for his character inclusion...

I'd say two more songs max is possible with Sephiroth. ...I could see it being more remixes of the two bits of music. Though weren't the FF music literally a battle theme and a remix of that same one? I forget, honestly.

 

[Teeb147]

That didn't work with Pokemon having anime references, and it doesn't work here either. A keychain isn't going to prevent him from being in. It's just the likeness of one character(and specifically the game version of one character, which Pokemon even outdoes, as it has an anime only character variant as a Final Smash now. It's arguable if Ash-Greninja showed up because it finally had a game appearance or not, but it still is an anime-specific thing created to make Greninja unique in itself. In addition, it's not the first time Ash is mentioned within Smash itself, and it probably won't be the last. You can even argue Ash-Greninja is a variant of a Mega, though it's more of a Form Change. However, there's no arguing Ash is a purely anime character as is. That's a hard anime reference no matter which way you go about it). The keychain is literally no different from the Pokemon anime stuff. It's slightly related to the non-games, but still tied to the games in their own way. Ash is pretty much the anime version of Red, after all. The only thing the keychain has as an issue is licensing the likeness of Mickey Mouse for a cameo of sorts. That's not nearly a problem that Sakurai would have outside of costing too much money. He has no literal reason to care about that.

Now, he might care about the Disney trio showing up, as they're really important to KH. Coupled with a lot of Final Fantasy characters, as well as KH originals, and it sounds like a licensing mess. But that assumes he wants to show off all of this. It's actually as simple as Sakurai seeing it as impossible to represent KH well due to licensing. Keyblade is hardly an issue, but the rest sure is.


Being the "biggest" franchise isn't a key factor. Erdrick's nowhere near the level you're making it. The only thing he has going for him of any strength is two leakers, but both have issues. Verge has no DLC right and missed some of the base roster(among he leaked, we got no SE character or Minecraft content. He backpedaled on this). The datamine is too iffy and an educated guess instead.


I'd say two more songs max is possible with Sephiroth. ...I could see it being more remixes of the two bits of music. Though weren't the FF music literally a battle theme and a remix of that same one? I forget, honestly.

I think it's fine to not give leaks too much, but I dont like that you bring up the same points that exaggerate and try to downplay everything.
I think you should know a little better and have a bit more restraint from pushing those points all the time.

 

[A.G.L.]

Here’s an idea, what if Sephiroth brings music from Final Fantasy Crisis Core instead of Final Fantasy 7? That way Square has more music to choose from if Sephiroth is the one they went with.


Also if Erdrick is in, pleeeeeeaaaaaaase let Sugiyama give Yoko Shimomura the chance to remix his music. She’s already on the Smash composer team (remake of Vega’s theme). I really think she could make some beautiful Dragon Quest remixes.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think it's fine to not give leaks too much, but I dont like that you bring up the same points that exaggerate and try to downplay everything.
I think you should know a little better and have a bit more restraint from pushing those points all the time.

No, I think I'll stick with these points.

There hasn't been strong arguments of Erdrick being a lock at all. There's some good arguments for him being likely, but we have shifty evidence for him supposed to being a lock. Two leakers with a problematic track record, a datamine that isn't exactly obvious enough(nobody knew who Jack was either, so Brave could be just about anything). We don't really have any reason to believe that DQ will absolutely get content in Smash. It could, and I believe it deserves it(though I don't agree Erdrick is the best choice either. I'd say Luminary due to worldwide appeal and for the same reason, Slime, are better choices).

We literally have only one character knocked out at the moment, apparently, being Sora. That's it. We have no evidence Spirits disconfirm. And once again, the evidence around it being Erdrick is extremely sketchy. Tansut's conversation about Erdrick is pretty meaningless when he literally assumed that was the character the insider gave. There was no clarification. It was a literal case of "sure why not". That makes him non-credible. Verge is sketchy too, because of his loose track record. All we have right now is he believes Erdrick is in due to his sources. He has gotten a few things wrong already with Ultimate. His track record was almost perfect for base game. He can't even explain why a SE character wasn't at the VGA. He has no actual clue. There's a very strong chance a lot of his information is bunk. One of those could easily be Erdrick, same with Minecraft. Both easily could be leakbait, really. He fell for it earlier with Star Fox Grand Prix like a ton leakers and insiders did, after all. We don't actually know what Brave means. Packun Flower, Jack, and Doyle don't have a consistent theme that is clear enough that we can use that as a remote way to figure out what Brave means. It's an actual mystery to us. Sure, there's a lot of legitimate theories. Doesn't mean every theory is real either. Remember, the main reason most people even believed it was Yuusha was because Leakers said so. And the Leakers made an assumption with no evidence to come that way.

Coupled with the literal who status, which is a big deal for DLC as it makes it a risky move, and his chances aren't nearly that high realistically. He's likely to some degree, sure. But him being a lock is a huge exaggeration with nothing backing it up that makes him that clear-cut of a pick. Besides, he wasn't even discussed to any real heavy degree till he got leaked, showing a key factor in how he is even known. Leaks. Nintendo isn't gong to count on leaks to sell a character. Nor one section of the world. It's worldwide sales that matter no matter how you go about it.

 

[Teeb147]

No, I think I'll stick with these points.

There hasn't been strong arguments of Erdrick being a lock at all. There's some good arguments for him being likely, but we have shifty evidence for him supposed to being a lock. Two leakers with a problematic track record, a datamine that isn't exactly obvious enough(nobody knew who Jack was either, so Brave could be just about anything). We don't really have any reason to believe that DQ will absolutely get content in Smash. It could, and I believe it deserves it(though I don't agree Erdrick is the best choice either. I'd say Luminary due to worldwide appeal and for the same reason, Slime, are better choices).

We literally have only one character knocked out at the moment, apparently, being Sora. That's it. We have no evidence Spirits disconfirm. And once again, the evidence around it being Erdrick is extremely sketchy. Tansut's conversation about Erdrick is pretty meaningless when he literally assumed that was the character the insider gave. There was no clarification. It was a literal case of "sure why not". That makes him non-credible. Verge is sketchy too, because of his loose track record. All we have right now is he believes Erdrick is in due to his sources. He has gotten a few things wrong already with Ultimate. His track record was almost perfect for base game. He can't even explain why a SE character wasn't at the VGA. He has no actual clue. There's a very strong chance a lot of his information is bunk. One of those could easily be Erdrick, same with Minecraft. Both easily could be leakbait, really. He fell for it earlier with Star Fox Grand Prix like a ton leakers and insiders did, after all. We don't actually know what Brave means. Packun Flower, Jack, and Doyle don't have a consistent theme that is clear enough that we can use that as a remote way to figure out what Brave means. It's an actual mystery to us. Sure, there's a lot of legitimate theories. Doesn't mean every theory is real either. Remember, the main reason most people even believed it was Yuusha was because Leakers said so. And the Leakers made an assumption with no evidence to come that way.

Coupled with the literal who status, which is a big deal for DLC as it makes it a risky move, and his chances aren't nearly that high realistically. He's likely to some degree, sure. But him being a lock is a huge exaggeration with nothing backing it up that makes him that clear-cut of a pick. Besides, he wasn't even discussed to any real heavy degree till he got leaked, showing a key factor in how he is even known. Leaks. Nintendo isn't gong to count on leaks to sell a character. Nor one section of the world. It's worldwide sales that matter no matter how you go about it.

And I'm saying you should know better, especially as a mod, from pushing points that go totally against one side, and not giving enough value to what goes in favor. Calling things sketchy just because it doesnt fit what you think it should be like isn't a good position. I think it would take for you to not push so hard to maybe be able to see things a bit more from both sides.

You're the one that's pushed the most from one extreme in this thread, and i find that odd for a mod to do that.

 

[A.G.L.]

No, I think I'll stick with these points.

There hasn't been strong arguments of Erdrick being a lock at all. There's some good arguments for him being likely, but we have shifty evidence for him supposed to being a lock. Two leakers with a problematic track record, a datamine that isn't exactly obvious enough(nobody knew who Jack was either, so Brave could be just about anything). We don't really have any reason to believe that DQ will absolutely get content in Smash. It could, and I believe it deserves it(though I don't agree Erdrick is the best choice either. I'd say Luminary due to worldwide appeal and for the same reason, Slime, are better choices).

We literally have only one character knocked out at the moment, apparently, being Sora. That's it. We have no evidence Spirits disconfirm. And once again, the evidence around it being Erdrick is extremely sketchy. Tansut's conversation about Erdrick is pretty meaningless when he literally assumed that was the character the insider gave. There was no clarification. It was a literal case of "sure why not". That makes him non-credible. Verge is sketchy too, because of his loose track record. All we have right now is he believes Erdrick is in due to his sources. He has gotten a few things wrong already with Ultimate. His track record was almost perfect for base game. He can't even explain why a SE character wasn't at the VGA. He has no actual clue. There's a very strong chance a lot of his information is bunk. One of those could easily be Erdrick, same with Minecraft. Both easily could be leakbait, really. He fell for it earlier with Star Fox Grand Prix like a ton leakers and insiders did, after all. We don't actually know what Brave means. Packun Flower, Jack, and Doyle don't have a consistent theme that is clear enough that we can use that as a remote way to figure out what Brave means. It's an actual mystery to us. Sure, there's a lot of legitimate theories. Doesn't mean every theory is real either. Remember, the main reason most people even believed it was Yuusha was because Leakers said so. And the Leakers made an assumption with no evidence to come that way.

Coupled with the literal who status, which is a big deal for DLC as it makes it a risky move, and his chances aren't nearly that high realistically. He's likely to some degree, sure. But him being a lock is a huge exaggeration with nothing backing it up that makes him that clear-cut of a pick. Besides, he wasn't even discussed to any real heavy degree till he got leaked, showing a key factor in how he is even known. Leaks. Nintendo isn't gong to count on leaks to sell a character. Nor one section of the world. It's worldwide sales that matter no matter how you go about it.

Not to mention people still can’t figure out why Jane was also in the datamine alongside Joker. Everyone assumed Persona 5 royale would introduce a female joker. Instead we got Kasumi who is not a female Joker. So it’s clear that not everything in the datamine is the way people have assumed it to be.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And I'm saying you should know better, especially as a mod, from pushing points that go totally against one side, and not giving enough value to what goes in favor. Calling things sketchy just because it doesnt fit what you think it should be like isn't a good position. I think it would take for you to not push so hard to maybe be able to see things a bit more from both sides.

You're the one that's pushed the most from one extreme in this thread, and i find that odd for a mod to do that.

They're sketchy because they have actual issues. And they are pointed out too. You can keep saying they aren't, but the points for Erdrick are still flawed. They are not "perfect" as people keep claiming. And it's been explained why multiple times. Whether you want to believe them or not won't make pointing out the flaws less valid. Nobody is treating the idea of the Datamine, Verge, or Tansut as invalid. What they're treating them as imperfect points. People pointing out flaws in points is... normal. If nobody will listen to those points, there's not much you can do about it. Won't make the flaws less important to point out.

Not to mention people still can’t figure out why Jane was also in the datamine alongside Joker. Everyone assumed Persona 5 royale would introduce a female joker. Instead we got Kasumi who is not a female Joker. So it’s clear that not everything in the datamine is the way people have assumed it to be.

Pretty much. Jane might be Kasumi. Jane might be a scrapped concept and unrelated. Nobody can know. I mean, if we get a Kasumi Echo Fighter or Mii Costume, there's a reason to believe that's what Jane became, which at least we know that the Jane costume for Joker is literally impossible to be anything else at the time other than a costume for him(explained heavily by Vaanrose in how coding works. I can look for the information if needed).

On the other hand, Brave's stats are everywhere. It's not nearly as tangible and we don't know what model it's supposed to be outright tied to. We can tie it to many models, but it won't make them accurate to what's really going to happen. Coupled with Piranha Plant actually having stat differences too... and you realize Brave isn't a very hefty point to use either as a clear codename(when it's far less clear than Jack, Doyle, or Packun Flower every could be, and arguably Jane too) nor are the stats anything but hard to work with and may give a potential idea of what could happen.

 

[AntagonisticGalaxyCetacea]

We don't actually know what Brave means. Packun Flower, Jack, and Doyle don't have a consistent theme that is clear enough that we can use that as a remote way to figure out what Brave means. It's an actual mystery to us. Sure, there's a lot of legitimate theories. Doesn't mean every theory is real either. Remember, the main reason most people even believed it was Yuusha was because Leakers said so. And the Leakers made an assumption with no evidence to come that way.

You're ignoring the fact that people have looked at/implemented Brave's stats and saw that it could also apply to Erdrick.

Coupled with the literal who status, which is a big deal for DLC as it makes it a risky move, and his chances aren't nearly that high realistically. He's likely to some degree, sure. But him being a lock is a huge exaggeration with nothing backing it up that makes him that clear-cut of a pick. Besides, he wasn't even discussed to any real heavy degree till he got leaked, showing a key factor in how he is even known. Leaks. Nintendo isn't gong to count on leaks to sell a character. Nor one section of the world. It's worldwide sales that matter no matter how you go about it.

Many people complain about not knowing Joker, or majority of the Fire Emblem characters, or Richter, I don't understand why "he wasnt discussed until he was leaked" means anything against him. This all reeks of bias. No **** Nintendo isn't counting on leaks to sell a character, why are you ignoring the fact that Dragon Quest is popular in Japan and quite possibly introducing him to a Western audience could garner more interest in him and the franchise?

Not to mention people still can’t figure out why Jane was also in the datamine alongside Joker. Everyone assumed Persona 5 royale would introduce a female joker. Instead we got Kasumi who is not a female Joker. So it’s clear that not everything in the datamine is the way people have assumed it to be.

Except Kasumi's Phantom Thief outfit mirrors Joker's Phantom Thief outfit. Joker's up B is also the Grappling Hook, which yes, it was used in P5 but it's used heavily as a game mechanic in Royal. It's not really a wrong thing to assume that things fell through between Atlus and Nintendo.

 

[Namasura]

Being the "biggest" franchise isn't a key factor. Erdrick's nowhere near the level you're making it.

What level are we making here? I have never seen this phrase explained in non-vague terms. Dragon Quest is Square Enix's second most important franchise and its natural that third-party speculation will gravitate towards a company's flagships, it's completely fair to expect DQ after FF and unfair to think the only thing DQ has going for it in speculation are leaks.

 

[Teeb147]

They're sketchy because they have actual issues. And they are pointed out too. You can keep saying they aren't, but the points for Erdrick are still flawed. They are not "perfect" as people keep claiming. And it's been explained why multiple times. Whether you want to believe them or not won't make pointing out the flaws less valid. Nobody is treating the idea of the Datamine, Verge, or Tansut as invalid. What they're treating them as imperfect points. People pointing out flaws in points is... normal. If nobody will listen to those points, there's not much you can do about it. Won't make the flaws less important to point out.


Pretty much. Jane might be Kasumi. Jane might be a scrapped concept and unrelated. Nobody can know. I mean, if we get a Kasumi Echo Fighter or Mii Costume, there's a reason to believe that's what Jane became, which at least we know that the Jane costume for Joker is literally impossible to be anything else at the time other than a costume for him(explained heavily by Vaanrose in how coding works. I can look for the information if needed).

On the other hand, Brave's stats are everywhere. It's not nearly as tangible and we don't know what model it's supposed to be outright tied to. We can tie it to many models, but it won't make them accurate to what's really going to happen. Coupled with Piranha Plant actually having stat differences too... and you realize Brave isn't a very hefty point to use either as a clear codename(when it's far less clear than Jack, Doyle, or Packun Flower every could be, and arguably Jane too) nor are the stats anything but hard to work with and may give a potential idea of what could happen.

Nothing needs to be perfect. Holding to an extreme side and saying something isn't the case just because it's not perfect is putting things through a wringer way too hard and not valuing what's in favor.

What you believe is not the final say, and if you keep holding onto your position without realizing its own flaws, then why should anyone care?
It's just annoying to keep seeing. You keep pushing what you think doesnt add up as if it's a point that invalidates it, even if you say it doesnt invalidate once in a while.

 

[A.G.L.]

*Sigh* here we go again.

I really hope the Square rep is revealed at E3 so we can just move on. It’s getting tiring arguing the same points or seeing the same points argued for so many months. And it’s clear we just dont see eye to eye.

First everyone was sure Geno was the most likely and we saw the same arguments being argued why or why not. Now it’s Erdrick, and each time the same points are usually made.

In the end I just hope whoever it is comes with good moves, a great stage, and more than 2 songs that are preferably remix’s.

If the Square rep is not revealed at E3 we may end up arguing ourselves into oblivion ha.

 

[SSGuy]

I'm hearing that Sora got deconfirmed

Spoiler

Nice

 

[Abade]

I don't mean to say this in a derogatory way, but I feel like people are way too delusional on Sora's chances.
Don't get me wrong; I would love to see a playable Sora, but I personally feel like he was disconfirmed the moment he was created as a spinoff of the Mickey Mouse franchise. The pendant on his Keyblade is even a Mickey Mouse logo.
So, with all due respect to his supporters, I think that Sora is in the same boat as Goku; popular, but ineligible.

Edit: On topic of the main question, Erdrick is all but confirmed at this point, but even if he weren't, he would still be the second in line Square Enix choice (Cloud counts as first), as Dragon Quest is SE's second biggest franchise.
Geno is next (in terms of SE characters, not DLC overall) simply due to his high demand and the fact that he is technically a Mario character, so he's permanently tied to Nintendo. I'm genuinely surprised that he hasn't made it in YET.

Mickey Mouse has already been referenced in Super Smash Bros.

 

[A.G.L.]

To help light the mood.
I thought I’d show how amazing remix’s of original songs can be. Two songs that are amazing the original and the remix and I’m hoping we will see this with whoever is the second Square rep.

Original

Remix

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What level are we making here? I have never seen this phrase explained in non-vague terms. Dragon Quest is Square Enix's second most important franchise and its natural that third-party speculation will gravitate towards a company's flagships, it's completely fair to expect DQ after FF and unfair to think the only thing DQ has going for it in speculation are leaks.

Basically, while they could go for DQ, they could go for a SE thing that's more known worldwide too. They could simply go for another FF character if they think it'll sell better.

You also didn't read what people said about Erdrick then. Erdrick is only getting worldwide knowledge due to the leaks. DQ has some on its own merits. There's a huge difference in what is known worldwide. Erdrick needed a boost from leaks to even gather attention outside of a vocal minority of fans in the UK and US regions. We know he's hard to recognize outside of Japan.

---------------------

I'll just cover the other points a bit better than unnecessary quoting;

Joker is a worldwide known character. Persona 5 did wonderfully. DQ isn't actually doing super well on sales in the West even to this day, sadly so. Persona 5 getting a character can be attributed more to Sega or Sakurai looking outside of Sonic for stuff. In fact, what is the most noted franchise out of Sonic in Sega? Even the next top-seller? It's something people really don't know. This is why it's not exactly comparable to the DQ situation.

Likewise, no, we shouldn't outright expect DQ because FF was in. That's silly. We should acknowledge it as a legitimate Smash option. Expecting stuff leads to vast disappointment as you hype yourself up a bit too much. We could literally get no DQ content. And I honestly think DQ deserves to be in Smash(though I'd choose Slime easily as the rep, but that's just me).

Dragon Quest being popular in Japan doesn't mean anything outside of a good base roster choice. Smash will sell worldwide... base game. DLC does not inherently sell well in every part of the world. Using a worldwide character is the least risky move they can make. Whether it's a DQ character or another FF character. Sephiroth, for instance, would instantly sell easier than Erdrick, mainly because he's more known to a vast degree. But also because he's a worldwide gaming icon. Erdrick is not a worldwide icon. He's a Japanese icon. Slime is a worldwide icon. Luminary... I'm not sure if he could be called an icon, truthfully(though I'm not sure how to explain why his worldwide knowledge being higher exists, yet he might not be an icon. It'd probably just makes sense to say he's still an icon at this point).. Of course these factors can be ignored if they want to. But they're still important ones that shouldn't be brushed over. Look at businesses objectively, especially for DLC. You're telling me a character that only one region knows will sell well in all regions? Come on. That's just ridiculous. It's not a good argument that Erdrick will be a guaranteed seller. And the target of Smash as a whole is the entire world. We already know what the target is.

The actual point that never was brought up that favors Dragon Quest is Sakurai is most interested in celebrating Japanese gaming. This doesn't help Erdrick at all, but it does help DQ in itself. Sure, Sakurai being a huge fan of DQ3 is cool. He's also a huge fan of Geno, who isn't playable despite the fan demand. Recognition may be an actual factor here. Joker has it more than Geno, we can say that at least. Slime definitely has it over Erdrick.

Now to go over the flaw with the Brave stats here; it could work for Erdrick, or others. The fact we can't inherently make him the only possible one it could work with makes it flawed as any real evidence. Especially since it only points to one particular version of Erdrick(his chibi design), but we have no way of knowing that they'd use that one either. Any version could be pushed at this point. Have we even seen what version of Erdrick is pushed(I'd like to know) the most?

 

[Icewolff92]

I'm talking strictly video games here. Not once have I seen a dev lie about a project they do not control. Non-answers tell more than answers do when NDAs are involved. Abnormal silence is also something to take note of, similar to how I felt Shantae content was in Smash due to Wayforward's silence.

Jim Sterling is a Videogame Journalist though and the video is from one of his Jimquisition episodes. So again, it happens in those areas also. Sure, you have the Wayforward silence I give you that, but I argue that there is a difference between asked upfront and being asked on Twitter. On twitter you have people constantly asking you a question, you can act like you did not see it, compared to someone asking you straight to the face. Something I know from own experience as someone that has been under NDA (although change Twitter to email in my cause)
Like I said before, I don´t care if Sora gets in, but just because he said no, it really doesn¨t mean jack **** at the end of things.

To qoute Pushdustin in one of his twitter threads
"So saying nothing could mean that they are under NDA Saying something could mean they are NDA. Its pretty much a non-factor when it comes to Smash speculation. Do you really think the developers are going to risk getting sued just so they wouldn't be caught in a white lie? "

https://twitter.com/PushDustIn/stat...0Ry_DkQJ_I0vwDX0ONVt8mAWzyroSiuICPpQGImw_m6as

 

[SSGuy]

I really just hope Sakurai surprises us with Geno at this rate. Last minute surprises are some of the best.

 

[Idon]

I really just hope Sakurai surprises us with Geno at this rate. Last minute surprises are some of the best.

If you like said surprise.

 

[Ovaltine]

I really just hope Sakurai surprises us with Geno at this rate. Last minute surprises are some of the best.

I can only dream. In a perfect world, we'd get Erdrick and Geno in the same challenger pack. Think about it: Geno is recognized worldwide (now including Europe, at long last), and he's been demanded for over a decade. Erdrick isn't as recognized worldwide, but has a huge influence in the east. Erdrick would have an advertising effect for DQ in the west that it's needed desperately, but what would be the push to get an international audience interested in buying Erdrick? They'd have to do something to pull them in. Geno would be a good way to do that. You want Geno? You'll have to get Erdrick, too. Casual fans will see the cool Toriyama-looking guy alongside a Mario character (who may as well be a 'new Mario character' for them, considering Geno's obscurity to the casual eye), and they'll likely want to buy it. It'd work out extremely well on all fronts.

Alas, we do not live in a perfect world. With Sora looking bleak now, my certainty in Erdrick only grows, and with DLC outside of the pass looking less likely, my hopes for Geno are next to nothing. I'm not gonna focus on Smash when it comes to Geno anymore and just hope for him to return elsewhere.

 

[SvartWolf]

pfff edrick or a dragon quest rep was 90% sure.. now its like 98%? and sora chances got down from 5% to... 1%? I don't think much else has changed...

I found some cool gifs. Here's for ff9 fans

source (there's the individual ones at the bottom of that page)

i love this... why isnt the entire FFIX cast in dissida already?

This gives me a fun idea.

If you could have any 5 music tracks that are from a Square Enix game in Smash Ultimate, what would they be?

For me they would be the following

1) Veiled in Black from Final Fantasy 15

2) Battle Theme II from Octopath Traveler

3) 13th Struggle from Kingdom Hearts 2-3

4) One Winged Angel from Final Fantasy 7

5) Forest Maze from Super Mario RPG

I have to agree with veiled in black

1)

2)

3)

4)

5)

sigh... where is teh final fantasy content T.T

 

[cmbsfm]

You also didn't read what people said about Erdrick then. Erdrick is only getting worldwide knowledge due to the leaks. DQ has some on its own merits. There's a huge difference in what is known worldwide. Erdrick needed a boost from leaks to even gather attention outside of a vocal minority of fans in the UK and US regions. We know he's hard to recognize outside of Japan.

I'll just cover the other points a bit better than unnecessary quoting;

Joker is a worldwide known character. Persona 5 did wonderfully. DQ isn't actually doing super well on sales in the West even to this day, sadly so. Persona 5 getting a character can be attributed more to Sega or Sakurai looking outside of Sonic for stuff. In fact, what is the most noted franchise out of Sonic in Sega? Even the next top-seller? It's something people really don't know. This is why it's not exactly comparable to the DQ situation.

Likewise, no, we shouldn't outright expect DQ because FF was in. That's silly. We should acknowledge it as a legitimate Smash option. Expecting stuff leads to vast disappointment as you hype yourself up a bit too much. We could literally get no DQ content. And I honestly think DQ deserves to be in Smash(though I'd choose Slime easily as the rep, but that's just me).

Dragon Quest being popular in Japan doesn't mean anything outside of a good base roster choice. Smash will sell worldwide... base game. DLC does not inherently sell well in every part of the world. Using a worldwide character is the least risky move they can make. Whether it's a DQ character or another FF character. Sephiroth, for instance, would instantly sell easier than Erdrick, mainly because he's more known to a vast degree. But also because he's a worldwide gaming icon. Erdrick is not a worldwide icon. He's a Japanese icon. Slime is a worldwide icon. Luminary... I'm not sure if he could be called an icon, truthfully(though I'm not sure how to explain why his worldwide knowledge being higher exists, yet he might not be an icon. It'd probably just makes sense to say he's still an icon at this point).. Of course these factors can be ignored if they want to. But they're still important ones that shouldn't be brushed over. Look at businesses objectively, especially for DLC. You're telling me a character that only one region knows will sell well in all regions? Come on. That's just ridiculous. It's not a good argument that Erdrick will be a guaranteed seller. And the target of Smash as a whole is the entire world. We already know what the target is.

The actual point that never was brought up that favors Dragon Quest is Sakurai is most interested in celebrating Japanese gaming. This doesn't help Erdrick at all, but it does help DQ in itself. Sure, Sakurai being a huge fan of DQ3 is cool. He's also a huge fan of Geno, who isn't playable despite the fan demand. Recognition may be an actual factor here. Joker has it more than Geno, we can say that at least. Slime definitely has it over Erdrick.

I feel Erdrick is in the same place as Simon. Simon was only widely speculated on because of leaks. Had he never been leaked, he would have had a far smaller presence in the speculation scene. Pre-Ultimate, Bomberman was pushed by this community as the second Konami character and Castlevania had a rather small presence then too. People would have also argued about Konami being too stingy to give more than Snake, which is somewhat similar to what’s going on here with Square.

From the Nomura-Sakurai interview, we learned that they suggested using a newer character over Cloud. A newer character would obviously have less appeal than Cloud or Sephiroth, who are icons. It’s definitely a good point that’s Erdrick’s lack of popularity in the west creates uncertainty over how he’d sell here, but if he’s in it’s very clearly a marketing tactic to increase DQ exposure in the west.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I feel Erdrick is in the same place as Simon. Simon was only widely speculated on because of leaks. Had he never been leaked, he would have had a far smaller presence in the speculation scene. Pre-Ultimate, Bomberman was pushed by this community as the second Konami character and Castlevania had a rather small presence then too. People would have also argued about Konami being too stingy to give more than Snake, which is somewhat similar to what’s going on here with Square.

Simon had a lot more chatter about him, actually. Being a worldwide icon. He was mostly dismissed because either A) They didn't think Konami would be coming back or B) They didn't think we'd get another Konami rep after Snake at the time. This way before Ryu was datamined/shown off. So a different situation.

He got a far bigger burst thanks to Verge, but it was mostly small even then. Castlevania being huge again thanks to the anime also ignited some of it. It was most because the franchise slowly got more relevant again than leaks. I'd say leaks wasn't a big player in this, at least not on SB where Simon was still largely talked about. Verge still helped, respectively. There was only one user I saw call him a guarantee, though he's no longer on the forums anymore.

From the Nomura-Sakurai interview, we learned that they suggested using a newer character over Cloud. A newer character would obviously have less appeal than Cloud or Sephiroth, who are icons. It’s definitely a good point that’s Erdrick’s lack of popularity in the west creates uncertainty over how he’d sell here, but if he’s in it’s very clearly a marketing tactic to increase DQ exposure in the west.

I wouldn't say he'd be much of a marketing tactic compared to Luminary. The lack of worldwide appeal means his iconic status is far more important than what people sometimes call "shill" picks.

 

[Namasura]

I feel Erdrick is in the same place as Simon. Simon was only widely speculated on because of leaks.

Hmm, I can't speak for this community since I only started speculating on Smash in English this year, but at least in my country's Nintendo forums, Castlevania had always been one of the most talked titles, like, up there with Megaman and Street Fighter, for a Smash character.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hmm, I can't speak for this community since I only started speculating on Smash in English this year, but at least in my country's Nintendo forums, Castlevania had always been one of the most talked titles, like, up there with Megaman and Street Fighter, for a Smash character.

I have seen communities where it seems like Simon didn't get talk till leaks came around.

Smashboards isn't one of those. But it helps I was a massive participant of the Smash 4 and Smash Ultimate threads. Being one of the first moderators for the Smash Ultimate section, before it had an official name, helps in knowing this information.

That said, there's a ton of characters that really should get more love without the need for leaks. Erdrick would be one of those. I mean, just cause he isn't my personal preference doesn't mean I dislike him or anything like that. I knew a bit about him, but learned even more thanks to you guys. Growing up as a huge DQ fan in the US where I didn't play anything beyond DQ 1, 2, Monsters 1, and Monsters 2 didn't help. I never did massive research on the other games cause I was into other stuff like Pokemon moreso. And Quest 64. And Golden Sun. And Final Fantasy. An Zeld- wait, that's not an RPG.

 

[DarthEnderX]

If he is in Smash, they can't say yes anyway because that would break NDA, and if he truly isn't in, they would still say "no".

Generally speaking though, people under NDA don't usually say "no" either. They say that they can't talk about that, that they have nothing to say about that subject, that they don't have anything to announce at this time, etc.

I feel Erdrick is in the same place as Simon. Simon was only widely speculated on because of leaks.

Simon was my #1 most wanted pick for Ultimate, but yes, actual expectation for him from the general community didn't pick up until the leaks.